18 réponses à ce sujet

[Youknow]

So I was playing as an archer Rogue (Nightmare Difficulty BTW). Basically being a prissy noble that doesn't want to get her hands dirty, and then after I reached Skyhold, I decided that I would take matters into my own hands and not be so wimpy anymore (I know, I'm being silly, I just wanted to make the game a bit more fun)... And good grief, melee combat feels really clunky in this. Like, it feels like it's trying to be an action game but the game is just way too stiff. It doesn't feel natural to hit, and I spend more time running after the enemy hoping that I'm actually in range to hit the enemy and rotating the camera and chasing after them. Honestly, if the game wants to be an action game, that's fine, but please let it be a good one if it's going to be a thing. 

 

Like... Wow. Combat essentially goes like this, I charge in with stealth after putting on poison weapons, and try to dash through the enemies to get as many as possible and then I poke twice, step back or evade, and then Effortless Riposte spam because enemies seem to have stupid hitboxes EVERYWHERE AROUND THEM. It's honestly obnoxious how many of them do this.  Enemies on the ground cannot be hit very well, targeting is just a pain in the butt with all of the various hills. This on its own wouldn't be so bad, but I feel a ton of frustration because my AI can't seem to handle itself at all, and because the "AI" is so intent on attacking my targets, I either have to tell them to do nothing and I literally instruct them to do things EVERY battle, or I watch them just drop like flies and have little to no control because the camera seems hellbent on not letting you see a decent angle when in the fray. It honestly feels like this game was designed around the player being a mage or a ranger and then dictating what the computer does because you can see better. Even worse, is that despite seeing that my damage as a melee is better (like a stab does like 90 or so, while a fire from a bow might do like 70), but even then, I'm not sure because Long Shot does sick amounts of damage when it criticals and doesn't take very long to cool down and can hit multiple enemies. I see melee has some AoE damage, but does it amount to anything and does it make me feel less like I'm fighting the game and more like I'm fighting enemies..? What am I doing wrong? I don't mean to sound so frustrated, but this... DA:2's combat in melee didn't feel this awkward, I'm not even sure what's happening here, but I'm not enjoying DW rogue. I rushed to Skyhold, so I'm only level 9 if that means anything for DW Rogue fans that can offer some advice. 

 

 

I'm not sure why I have to HOLD my mouse clicks or r or any button for that matter to keep attack if I can't do combos or anything-- yes, I know combos and the like is anything BUT "RPG" elements, but if this weird hybrid thing? It's got to go. Range feels fine in this system, but melee feels awful. Strangely enough, Warriors feel like they were made to work fine here because despite their clunkiness, at least they can build guard and actually GET hit. DW rogues? You're using them the whole time because the AI can't handle them, and if you're using them, you're constantly monitoring everyone else like crazy because the AI will die because you can't focus on doing your Rogue thing of stabbing the hell out of everyone because "OH THE CONTROL PLAYER CHANGED TARGETS, LET ME TARGET THAT INSTEAD OF FINISHING OFF WHAT SHE DID BECAUSE SHE ALMOST KILLED IT" ugh. 

 

 

And while this might not be the topic for it, what the hell is with the lack of options I can tell my AI? what happened to things like "target with less health," "target strongest?" Where is this? What happened? I know I can turn moves off and adjust their frequency, but I actually LIKED that I could give them priorities and the like without having to adjust it every couple of seconds. 

[BansheeOwnage]

Don't feel silly for roleplaying your character, that's, well... the point of RPGs It is a lot clunkier than it should be. Not impossible to have fun, but less fun that both other games in my opinion. I agree that the AI is completely terrible too, mostly because we don't have Tactics anymore. I really, really miss Tactics. I also agree that it's trying to be a hybrid, and like usual that's not a good idea. It just makes it not the best action game and not the best strategic game. One of the nice things about both previous games was that I could be strategic, but with Tactics, I didn't have to micromanage everyone, and aside from using Shield Wall, I can do everything better than the AI, which makes me have to micromanage even more. Hopefully next time it will be better?

[ottffsse]

On nightmare I am familiar with dw assassin and tempest not artificer. Assassin goes like this : stealth, hit target with a good ability like twin fangs, shadow strike, hit flank attack (restealth). Hopefully tracking will hit the target. Later you get better abilities to play with like hidden blades and mark of death. And can go into stealth after each kill.

On tempest you use guard on hit masterworks, hit flask of fire and hit spinning blades / shadow strike. Spam the hell out of it and than hit flask of frost / lightning. Do more spinning blades attacks. Don't really do stealth as dw tempest but for archer it's still useful as you don't use flask of frost.

Tracking on some abilities like twin fangs and even shadow strike sucks.

[andy6915]

Don't feel silly for roleplaying your character, that's, well... the point of RPGs It is a lot clunkier than it should be. Not impossible to have fun, but less fun that both other games in my opinion. I agree that the AI is completely terrible too, mostly because we don't have Tactics anymore. I really, really miss Tactics. I also agree that it's trying to be a hybrid, and like usual that's not a good idea. It just makes it not the best action game and not the best strategic game. One of the nice things about both previous games was that I could be strategic, but with Tactics, I didn't have to micromanage everyone, and aside from using Shield Wall, I can do everything better than the AI, which makes me have to micromanage even more. Hopefully next time it will be better?

Clunker than in DAO? Yeah right. DAO was very clunky, with all the stiff combat.

[andy6915]

On nightmare I am familiar with dw assassin and tempest not artificer. Assassin goes like this : stealth, hit target with a good ability like twin fangs, shadow strike, hit flank attack (restealth). Hopefully tracking will hit the target. Later you get better abilities to play with like hidden blades and mark of death. And can go into stealth after each kill.

On tempest you use guard on hit masterworks, hit flask of fire and hit spinning blades / shadow strike. Spam the hell out of it and than hit flask of frost / lightning. Do more spinning blades attacks. Don't really do stealth as dw tempest but for archer it's still useful as you don't use flask of frost.

Tracking on some abilities like twin fangs and even shadow strike sucks.

Not using flask of frost, or any flask ability, is foolish. How else can freeze and detonate your own opponents without a mage needing to freeze them for you?

[ottffsse]

I said flask of frost was optional on archer because one is not in melee range regularly. On dw definitely use flask of frost. With 8 ability slots it does not fit on archer tempest imo.

[andy6915]

I said flask of frost was optional on archer because one is not in melee range regularly. On dw definitely use flask of frost. With 8 ability slots it does not fit on archer tempest imo.

Oh... Why mention archery if this is about dual wielding?

[Youknow]

On nightmare I am familiar with dw assassin and tempest not artificer. Assassin goes like this : stealth, hit target with a good ability like twin fangs, shadow strike, hit flank attack (restealth). Hopefully tracking will hit the target. Later you get better abilities to play with like hidden blades and mark of death. And can go into stealth after each kill.

On tempest you use guard on hit masterworks, hit flask of fire and hit spinning blades / shadow strike. Spam the hell out of it and than hit flask of frost / lightning. Do more spinning blades attacks. Don't really do stealth as dw tempest but for archer it's still useful as you don't use flask of frost.

Tracking on some abilities like twin fangs and even shadow strike sucks.

 

Hmm... I suppose I don't have any real tracking abilities, that might actually be some of my problem. Alright, I'll try that and see how that works for DW I did not realize that the skills had enough tracking to do that. Riposte is kinda ridiculous though, that's definitely a keeper for me. Honestly, from the passives, I like the idea of tempest or Assassin, so I guess I'll go with Tempest. The flask are pretty cool. 

[capn233]

The controls in this game aren't particularly great, and DW rogue needs a bit more care in positioning and management than the other melee characters.  Also the tracking on some of the abilities isn't really very good (twin fangs for instance).  You will have to get used to how the powers work, and when you will get a likely hit (target movement, elevation differences).

 

I basically just like the staples: stealth, flank attack, death blow (all upgraded) and then a defense power like evade (or effortless riposte if you rather).  Twin fangs is fine as a detonator early, and mid-late you can still mix it in to detonate targets you won't kill outright (otherwise deathblow).  I just load up on passives and then pick up a couple specialization powers otherwise.  For instance, on Assassin you can stick with mainly the left side of the tree unless you want to spam nightmare combos with Knockout Bomb.

 

On the dagger tree that means I am staying more or less on the right except for Flank Attack, which lets me pick up Dance of Death and Sneak Attack.  In Subterfuge, I stay on the left and get Stealth(+) through Evade and then you can potentially pick up Ambush for 50% AP out of stealth.  For Sabotage, I don't care for poison, but on the right I can pick up Looks Like it Hurt and Cheap Shot (Caltrops do FF, so write off a point to get those) and it may be worth saving this tree for later as such.  And then the Archery tree has a couple decent passives for DW, specifically Pincushion (requires 3 point investment and one useless point).

[The Baconer]

Clunker than in DAO? Yeah right. DAO was very clunky, with all the stiff combat.

 

It actually is "clunkier" than Origins, because Origins barely had any kind of physics at all. It was slow, but you could spin around on a dime, never had to worry about uneven terrain or wonky hitboxes, and attacks didn't have to physically connect with the target in order to deal damage.

 

So, it's "smoother", but that's mostly because it is infinitely less complex. It's a double-edged sword.

[Heyokah]

Hmm... I suppose I don't have any real tracking abilities, that might actually be some of my problem. Alright, I'll try that and see how that works for DW I did not realize that the skills had enough tracking to do that. Riposte is kinda ridiculous though, that's definitely a keeper for me. Honestly, from the passives, I like the idea of tempest or Assassin, so I guess I'll go with Tempest. The flask are pretty cool. 

Tempest is best as an archer.  But assassin works quite well for both and I much prefer the feel of it.  Hidden blades is pure bliss.  

 

The thing about DW rogue is that you are not a front line combatant per se; you pick off targets on the outside of combat such as mages and archers.  Once they are out of the way you can finish off everything else.  The key to DW rogue is truly about flanking and stealth given all of the passive bonuses and the assassin specialization enhances these passives further.

 

If you are picking off targets in a proper order tracking isn't so much of an issue until you are engaged with other melees, and yes I agree that staying on target can be a pain especially when using flank attack.  When I first started playing DW I wanted to simply never stop attacking, however I quickly learned that this was not truly efficient.  It is far better to wait for openings, flank your target, attack, restealth, and open again.  You will do far more damage this way and in the later game you will basically be killing things in 2-3 button presses while popping in and out of stealth the entire time.

 

Of course at your level you will be unable to take full advantage of the flanking/stealth mechanic and passives but you can begin to work on your efficiency -especially if you choose assassin.  To explain what I mean I'll give you a a set of skills that only require 11 points:

 

Assassin - Hidden Blades and the upgrade.  I was never there (passive).  Knife in the shadows (passive)

 

Subterfuge - Stealth.  Easy to miss (passive).

 

Double daggers - Flank attack and the upgrade.  Twin fangs.  Dance of death (passive).  Sneak attack (passive).

 

So now everytime you attack from stealth you automatically crit, when out of stealth and while flanking your crit is doubled, Flank attack will not only place you into a flanking position but it also puts you into stealth, and Twin fangs will hit for +100% damage due to flanking your target.  Once your target dies you regain 50 stamina and your cooldown on stealth is reset.  You also have 25% natural threat reduction which is increased to 100% while flanking.  All that for just 11 points.  Not to mention the fact that your upgraded Hidden Blades will take 50-75% of your targets health if you open with it while stealthed.  Later in the game it will kill most normal mobs outright which puts you right back into stealth.  

 

So basically nothing ever sees you coming and dies in seconds.  It is a fun and rewarding playstyle provided you are patient with your Flank attack - meaning you need to allow the animation to execute fully and put you back into stealth and then attack with Twin fangs, Hidden blades, or whatever else you may have slotted later.  Hopefully this will make your DW rogue experience more enjoyable. 

[PapaCharlie9]

You are not crazy and in comparison to say, Ninja Gaiden or Heavenly Sword, yeah, it's pretty clunky. Even in comparison to Witcher 2 or Skyrim, it's more clunky, but those have their own problems.
 

"OH THE CONTROL PLAYER CHANGED TARGETS, LET ME TARGET THAT INSTEAD OF FINISHING OFF WHAT SHE DID BECAUSE SHE ALMOST KILLED IT" ugh.

That's one adjustment you have to make, related to your other comment (see below). Because AI was dumbed down, you need to make a basic either/or choice: slave your companions to the controlled character, or let them run free. You can change the AI to Follow Self for other party members and you'll have fewer problems like the one you mention -- though you trade for different problems, like your warrior standing around doing nothing. Many threads on AI settings in this forum, worth checking out.
 

And while this might not be the topic for it, what the hell is with the lack of options I can tell my AI? what happened to things like "target with less health," "target strongest?" Where is this? What happened? I know I can turn moves off and adjust their frequency, but I actually LIKED that I could give them priorities and the like without having to adjust it every couple of seconds.

It was dumbed down. They probably looked at their usage analytics for DAO (you guessed that 'Connecting to Dragon Age Servers' isn't just to login, right?) and determined that less than X% ever customized the AI rules for characters. So, in the name of making the game more accessible to a broader audience (speculation), they simplified AI settings to the either/or choice above.

[Magdalena11]

You are not crazy and in comparison to say, Ninja Gaiden or Heavenly Sword, yeah, it's pretty clunky. Even in comparison to Witcher 2 or Skyrim, it's more clunky, but those have their own problems.
 
That's one adjustment you have to make, related to your other comment (see below). Because AI was dumbed down, you need to make a basic either/or choice: slave your companions to the controlled character, or let them run free. You can change the AI to Follow Self for other party members and you'll have fewer problems like the one you mention -- though you trade for different problems, like your warrior standing around doing nothing. Many threads on AI settings in this forum, worth checking out.
 

It was dumbed down. They probably looked at their usage analytics for DAO (you guessed that 'Connecting to Dragon Age Servers' isn't just to login, right?) and determined that less than X% ever customized the AI rules for characters. So, in the name of making the game more accessible to a broader audience (speculation), they simplified AI settings to the either/or choice above.

 

I agree with you in saying that AI was probably simplified a lot from its original idea.  Remember how, even as late as the Christmas 2013 employee playfest, they were still ironing out combat mechanics?  My guess would be that there originally was supposed to be a threshold for each ability, but it got too cumbersome with the however many permutations of class and specialty there are.  So, we get 3 options: don't use it, use it at AI discretion, or spam it.

 

That being said, the AI pathfinding is often the least sensible route to any given point.  If it's vital that Cassandra get close to that rupture to use spell purge, the best way to do that is to take direct control.  The Inquisitor and companions freeze in place, frequently when switching views or range zones.  There are things that could improve.  I find it maddening that the characters that need to be babysat the most are the ones that get stuck the most.  

 

Speaking of oblivious companions, check out what showed up while Inq was checking the map.  Couldn't someone have given her a nudge?

 

[/spoiler]

[Youknow]

Tempest is best as an archer.  But assassin works quite well for both and I much prefer the feel of it.  Hidden blades is pure bliss.  

 

The thing about DW rogue is that you are not a front line combatant per se; you pick off targets on the outside of combat such as mages and archers.  Once they are out of the way you can finish off everything else.  The key to DW rogue is truly about flanking and stealth given all of the passive bonuses and the assassin specialization enhances these passives further.

 

If you are picking off targets in a proper order tracking isn't so much of an issue until you are engaged with other melees, and yes I agree that staying on target can be a pain especially when using flank attack.  When I first started playing DW I wanted to simply never stop attacking, however I quickly learned that this was not truly efficient.  It is far better to wait for openings, flank your target, attack, restealth, and open again.  You will do far more damage this way and in the later game you will basically be killing things in 2-3 button presses while popping in and out of stealth the entire time.

 

Of course at your level you will be unable to take full advantage of the flanking/stealth mechanic and passives but you can begin to work on your efficiency -especially if you choose assassin.  To explain what I mean I'll give you a a set of skills that only require 11 points:

 

Assassin - Hidden Blades and the upgrade.  I was never there (passive).  Knife in the shadows (passive)

 

Subterfuge - Stealth.  Easy to miss (passive).

 

Double daggers - Flank attack and the upgrade.  Twin fangs.  Dance of death (passive).  Sneak attack (passive).

 

So now everytime you attack from stealth you automatically crit, when out of stealth and while flanking your crit is doubled, Flank attack will not only place you into a flanking position but it also puts you into stealth, and Twin fangs will hit for +100% damage due to flanking your target.  Once your target dies you regain 50 stamina and your cooldown on stealth is reset.  You also have 25% natural threat reduction which is increased to 100% while flanking.  All that for just 11 points.  Not to mention the fact that your upgraded Hidden Blades will take 50-75% of your targets health if you open with it while stealthed.  Later in the game it will kill most normal mobs outright which puts you right back into stealth.  

 

So basically nothing ever sees you coming and dies in seconds.  It is a fun and rewarding playstyle provided you are patient with your Flank attack - meaning you need to allow the animation to execute fully and put you back into stealth and then attack with Twin fangs, Hidden blades, or whatever else you may have slotted later.  Hopefully this will make your DW rogue experience more enjoyable. 

Okay, that's very useful. I've switched back to archery for now then, and when I can actually collect all of the stuff to become an assassin, I'll use it. I can be patient with styles. I really liked assassin/Rogue in DA:2, that's what I was my first playthrough, and it was amazing there I thought. I tried being more shifty that time, and it DID work a bit better for what it's worth, I'l just have to take better care of the allies then.

 

You are not crazy and in comparison to say, Ninja Gaiden or Heavenly Sword, yeah, it's pretty clunky. Even in comparison to Witcher 2 or Skyrim, it's more clunky, but those have their own problems.
 
That's one adjustment you have to make, related to your other comment (see below). Because AI was dumbed down, you need to make a basic either/or choice: slave your companions to the controlled character, or let them run free. You can change the AI to Follow Self for other party members and you'll have fewer problems like the one you mention -- though you trade for different problems, like your warrior standing around doing nothing. Many threads on AI settings in this forum, worth checking out.
 

It was dumbed down. They probably looked at their usage analytics for DAO (you guessed that 'Connecting to Dragon Age Servers' isn't just to login, right?) and determined that less than X% ever customized the AI rules for characters. So, in the name of making the game more accessible to a broader audience (speculation), they simplified AI settings to the either/or choice above.

 

Okay, good. Because honestly, the first thing I did was starting playing some DMC:4 after just to make sure I wasn't completely insane or something. I feel like at this point that they should just make Warrior classes FEEL as smooth as an action game with the way this game functions. It's not entirely a bad idea, and doesn't really make it less of a RPG because of it. Some might argue it could be more because the warrior classes encourage you to be in a more chaotic mess of a fight. 

 

Alright, I'll definitely check that out then. That could be useful. It's weird, because I never felt like I was fighting the AI in the previous ones. In DA:O's, that stupid combat mastery thing was there that made you have to level it up to get more abilities to tell the computer what to do, and in DA:2, it was even better because they unlocked as you got further in the game (or was it based on levels, I don't remember, but it was better than DA:O in that regard). 

 

That's a real shame. Hell, they missed a golden opportunity to make that a inquisition perk. "Less terrible AI" under the form of something like "Tactical Expertise" or "Leadership" or "Coordinated Attacks" or anything. They could have devoted an entire perk tree to this. Would have made sense with the whole "develop into a great leader" thing they had going plot wise. 

 

Thanks everyone, this has been really useful for me. 

[PapaCharlie9]

I like that idea! Spend 1 Influence to gain "Pro AI".

[capn233]

Ha!

 

I might even go for an Advanced Tactics paid DLC.  Which is sad considering 1) DAO default tactics from 2009 are "advanced" compared to DAI's, and 2) Advanced Tactics mod was free (thank you modders).

 

 

*Although as far as paid DLC goes that doesn't exactly add to gameplay, I would prefer ME1 and ME2 high res texture DLC.

[Forsythia77]

If you are having issues with your tank following you and bringing the horde to you while you are trying to pick off a mage or archer, set all of them to follow themselves in the tactics screen.   You can also have your archer and mage also set to follow your tank so they attack the group rather than your target.  I don't usually bother with the mages and archers, since they seem to be okay with managing themselves for the most part.  That might help you a little.  Someone suggested that  in another thread a long time ago and I find it really does help because the default is for your warrior to follow you so if you break off from the group to pick off that annoying archer, said warrior will follow you and bring the group and their ire with them. 

[JamanMosil]

Agreed with above.  When I first started playing Inquisition, I'd read some of the threads on here first that advised to have everyone follow themselves(i.e., Sera follow Sera, IB follow IB, etc....).  I've done that, and have had none of the AI problems I've heard so much about.  Obviously, I micro a bit for boss fights...but for standard battles, the AI manages just fine with those settings.

 

(Still wish we had DA:O tactics.  )

[AnUnculturedLittlePotato]

I like that idea! Spend 1 Influence to gain "Pro AI".

But first you need to get 4 points in inquisition and "moderately ok AI" and "kinda decent AI" both require "Non Suicidal AI" and "The Dawning Realization that We Can Avoid Damage" which won't specifically state that it'll teach the AI to use it's dodges.