Harassing someone simply over something they are wearing is most definitely bullying. It doesn't matter what someone wears or what they look like it only matters what they actually do and say.
On topic however I thought Gaider stopped being the official lead writer months ago, it's just more talked about now?
At least they are not sending opponents to gulags ... not yet anyway.I suppose it's not necessarily "heartless bastards", I'll give you that but more anger over being set back by society. Anger that leads to hate. Or insecurity, I think there's a lot of insecurity mixed in the toxic behaviour. I suppose that just makes them seem like heartless bastards.
Oh my. I was too busy following Rosetta and Philae mission, to notice this amazing SWJ achievement, which no doubt advanced all humanity.And you haven't seen those people? Never saw the outrage over a shirt (that was dubbed the shirtstorm) where people (including lots of feminists) bullied a scientist (that just accomplished an amazing feat for humanity as a whole) to the point of making a public apology whilst borderline crying? His accomplishments didn't matter because he happened to make (the somewhat hilarious) choice to wear a shirt with scandily clad women. I dunno, but that just rubs me the wrong way; someone's choice of wardrobe affecting their accomplishments.
For the people argueing that "wahhh not being able to be <insert minority here>phobic is bad and restricting the player, waahhh!"
I support choice. I also support the freedom that marginalized, abused, bullied, threatened, murdered, assaulted and disowned demographics of people can choose a game where they aren't being faced with their daily struggle.
Plus you get to use and see other forms of discrimination. Forms that fit in Thedas. This whole templar/mage conflict is in fact a great opportunity to act like a generalizing douche.
So I'm okay with being told "no, you can't be transphobic/racist, but you can TOTES sh*t all over elves! Or mages!"
Either way there's plenty of other games where you can be a douche. (Load up GTA, pick a random demographic and start murdering everyone of that demographic.)
Anyway, on the other hand:
I personally disagree with this, based on what I've seen. There's a lot of radical SJWs that justify blind hatred against "not oppressed" groups of people. Things like #killallmen for example (some of those people were serious). They're especially prominent on tumblr. I've also seen a lot of people being fond of thought-policing.
Aaaaand I've seen some SJW tumblrette's praise this one female criminal because "lol she's a strong woman lol".
They use hate to counter hate. I guess the sane SJWs would label them "not-SJWs" but that's the same circular argument among radfems and (sane) feminists.
So the #shootafeminist hashtag is what satire? Sorry but that is BS as well.
SJWs champion equality. My crack about bigots being heartless bastards is MY honest opinion about them because that is what they are, and I quite honestly I'm sick and tied of them ruining the world. If people here can't handle the truth that there heartless bastards here then or that might be one themselves then need to either re-examine their worldview. and if they can't or won't do that then that is their problem and not mine.
Because frankly I'm sick of this "tolerate the intolerate" crap.
SJWs champion equality.
SJW's are about equality in the same way Animal Farm was.
All animals are equal, but some animals are more equal than others."
It's amazing how books you read when you were 15 can continue being relevant over a decade later, since that book really is just about a perfect allegory for feminism and SJW's.
because if that's not up your allley and you don't wanna play it that way, what do you care?
i hope the game devs never add the choices you want for it.
A contradiction.
What agenda?
People's paranoia about the "sjw agenda" being shoved down their throats
Weekes apparently loves his antagonists morally ambigous and conflicted. Honestly that's just what the series needs after the rather weak Meredith and Coryphesus. If Solas is going to be the new antagonist, I have extremely high hopes that Weekes will do a good job with him. At least Solas doesn't practice blood magic so the rationale for his actions hopefully won't be "lol I practice blood magic ;)",
I think your mind would actually explode if we were in Seheron and you had to follow the Qun, since, of course, the Qun explicitly isn't transphobic, and this would precisely be the view you couldn't under any circumstances express, but the incredible irony aside, I'm sure that wasn't your actual point.
Here's what we know about Tevinter: biological gender determines your branch of military service. Krem didn't get chased out of the army for his gender identity; he got chased out for fraud.
Despite your most feverent wish, there isn't proof that the kind of prejudice you're choping at the bit to express actually exists in game. Tevinter's an immoral place - slavery, blood sacrifice, abuse, that's all rampant. But you're going to need to find another game if you want to yell obscenities at transgendered persons.
...
So, prejudicial opinion about my psyche followed by a deflection to an irrelevant issue. At least you acknowledged your own deflection. Care to respond to my actual point now? I wrote that what you are suggestion is similar to a Qunari origin character in Seheron not following the Qun because those choices would be considered phobic toward "whatever", which includes things that aren't transgenderism.
Krem said the replacement healer offered to tell the tribune that mental illness was to blame, some pity for the "mad little girl". Which goes to show how well you listened to Krem. What gives? Were you disinterested in Krem's character? Did you feel any aversion because Krem was speaking to you? I certainly hope bigotry and transphobia didn't play a role in your oversight.
A contradiction.
Quoting out of context, i see. Classic. Next time quote the whole thing and bold for emphasis. Quoting like this you're completely ignoring the point of that post and what it was adressing in the first place. But i can see how you got things confused. Unless you were purposely trying to mislead others and create further confusion?
First sentence, "because if that's not up your allley and you don't wanna play it that way, what do you care?" refers to non-heterosexual romance options being precisely that, options, therefore if some of those options are not "up your alley" and you don't want to take them, what's your problem with other people going for them? How other people choose to make use -or not- of available optional content regarding anyone's sexual orientation does not really affect your own game in any way, you can choose to ignore said content. The availability of said content does not force you to go for it, yet some people think it does because chances are they are already bigoted against the groups who might prefer them.
Second sentence, "i hope the game devs never add the choices you want for it. " is in reference to those who complain there aren't certain dialogue options in-game they could use to be bigots in-game as i suspect they already are IRL. Dialogue options, unlike romance options, are not as easily avoidable, they just pop up on the wheel and you have to read them all to know what you're doing. Things like homohobia, racism, and sexism are very real issues from the world we live in every day, and many of our fellow players are subjected to that sort of treatment themselves, so with these other human beings in mind, i wouldn't like to see such demands be answered to your liking, becaue a player who's been bullied over their skin color or sexual orientation should not take a break from their reality in a videogame and encounter the same thing there too. Making such options available just to please a portion of the audience of dubious human quality would be in my opinion a mistake and might harm the series too. And i think it would show true skill from the writers if they manage to stick to the world they built and make things work in that context instead of patching it up with bits of IRL hateful remarks from groups of people we all know are what's wrong with this world.
"Variety in romance options and SJW" and "why don't we get the option to be racist a-holes in game" are two separate -if similar- parts of the discussion on this thread, maybe you missed that.
.
You can flirt with Dorian all you like, or you can just not, and you can choose not to start a romance with the guy, but going through easily 70 hours of gameplay encountering racist/homophobic/transphobic dialogue options throughout the entire game, that wouldn't be the same thing. You can't avoid that, even if the player chooses not to use those options, they've already seen them. On the other hand, it takes some time and work to get to see Dorian's naked behind, just because the character is gay doesn't mean you will have to see his gay scenes.
Non-heterosexual/heteronormative romance content can't be equated with bigotry dialogue options, the former are inclusive and not necessarily in your face unless you go for them, while the latter would be unavoidable to the eye and would contribute to further normalize such a despicable behaviour. You can still make an evil Inquisitor working within the Thedosian context just fine. I made a human mage, and made her so Andrastian i couldn't stand her so i deleted her file. I managed to make myself a character i loathed so much i terminated it. Without attacking random characters for being black, homosexual or trans.
Of course, your mind's all set, you won't care about any of this, but may i point out you might have gotten your EA games mixed up? I think the game you're after is The Sims. Go mercilessly starve sims to death and torture them in the pool without a ladder, have them pick up a fight with their black neighbours or violently reject a same-sex sim approach. The world of DA already has its own social, cultural, religious and political issues you're deciding to ignore because that fantasy fiction doesn't mirror reality to perfection, but The Sims is a blank page, have fun. Go wild with all that freedom.
Back to what this thread was originally about, i'm looking forward to seeing what Weekes does. I liked much of what he did for DA:I so i'm curious what he'll do now that he's the lead writer. I hope he destroys all my expectations and trolls us all. As i'm equally intrigued about Gaider's new secret project, very much intrigued.
"Efforts to restrict player choice" is a very confused way to think about this. Every game has a nearly infinite amount of restriction on player choice in this sense, since the vast majority of options the devs could theoretically have written were not written. Instead, they put in the options they felt were worth putting in.
Weekes doesn't think your pet dialogue options are worth the zots? That's a shame.
No, Weekes thinks having an opposing response on the issue of gender identity is somehow a terrible and offensive injustice to people in the real world. It has nothing to do with your "zots", whatever those are. I assume you're referring to development resources.
I understand that the game can't feature a ton of various choices that would take the story in multiple directions. I'm referring to a response on the dialogue wheel. Other issues get varied responses, so why not this too?
Think of it this way. Take the human noble origin in DA:O for example. You cannot choose to stay behind and help your mother. If you did the game would end. So clearly that cannot be an option. But the origin story does feature various other choices, like how you choose to respond to Mother Mallol. You can show that you are faithful or that you don't believe in the Chant. You can show Aldous that you know history or not. You can be respectful to Nan or threaten her. You can be courteous to your mother's guests or insulting.
See the difference? We're not asking for major storyline changes. We're asking for the ability to define our characters on issues that are brought before them in the game.
For the people argueing that "wahhh not being able to be <insert minority here>phobic is bad and restricting the player, waahhh!"
I support choice. I also support the freedom that marginalized, abused, bullied, threatened, murdered, assaulted and disowned demographics of people can choose a game where they aren't being faced with their daily struggle.
Plus you get to use and see other forms of discrimination. Forms that fit in Thedas. This whole templar/mage conflict is in fact a great opportunity to act like a generalizing douche.
So I'm okay with being told "no, you can't be transphobic/racist, but you can TOTES sh*t all over elves! Or mages!"
Either way there's plenty of other games where you can be a douche. (Load up GTA, pick a random demographic and start murdering everyone of that demographic.)
Anyway, on the other hand:
I personally disagree with this, based on what I've seen. There's a lot of radical SJWs that justify blind hatred against "not oppressed" groups of people. Things like #killallmen for example (some of those people were serious). They're especially prominent on tumblr. I've also seen a lot of people being fond of thought-policing.
Aaaaand I've seen some SJW tumblrette's praise this one female criminal because "lol she's a strong woman lol".
They use hate to counter hate. I guess the sane SJWs would label them "not-SJWs" but that's the same circular argument among radfems and (sane) feminists.
In that case you would be against the issue being brought up at all. Those who don't want to see their "struggle" can simply choose the option to support the character, or avoid the character if they don't even want to deal with that.
Yes, we see other forms of discrimination, AND we get to respond to those in various ways. So why not this issue? Thought police, is why.
No one is advocating the character be allowed to be a phobic or a racist. Just to respond to philosophical issues in a disagreeing and even polite way.
Weekes apparently loves his antagonists morally ambigous and conflicted. Honestly that's just what the series needs after the rather weak Meredith and Coryphesus. If Solas is going to be the new antagonist, I have extremely high hopes that Weekes will do a good job with him. At least Solas doesn't practice blood magic so the rationale for his actions hopefully won't be "lol I practice blood magic ;)",
That you know of. Remember, Solas see's blood magic as a tool. He doesn't disapprove of it. He only disapproves of it being misused, as he does with all forms of magic.
That you know of. Remember, Solas see's blood magic as a tool. He doesn't disapprove of it. He only disapproves of it being misused, as he does with all forms of magic.
Yes, and he outright says that he does not practice blood magic during Cole's amulet quest.
He also wrote some of the best Mass Effect stuff, I hear. Tali, Mordin...Patrick Weekes is the new lead. He wrote The Masked Empire and Cole, Solas and Iron Bull. (And other things I don't remember.)
Quoting out of context, i see. Classic. Next time quote the whole thing and bold for emphasis. Quoting like this you're completely ignoring the point of that post and what it was adressing in the first place. But i can see how you got things confused. Unless you were purposely trying to mislead others and create further confusion?
First sentence, "because if that's not up your allley and you don't wanna play it that way, what do you care?" refers to non-heterosexual romance options being precisely that, options, therefore if some of those options are not "up your alley" and you don't want to take them, what's your problem with other people going for them? How other people choose to make use -or not- of available optional content regarding anyone's sexual orientation does not really affect your own game in any way, you can choose to ignore said content. The availability of said content does not force you to go for it, yet some people think it does because chances are they are already bigoted against the groups who might prefer them.
Second sentence, "i hope the game devs never add the choices you want for it. " is in reference to those who complain there aren't certain dialogue options in-game they could use to be bigots in-game as i suspect they already are IRL. Dialogue options, unlike romance options, are not as easily unavoidable, they just pop up on the wheel and you have to read them all to know what you're doing. Things like homohobia, racism, and sexism are very real issues from the world we live in every day, and many of our fellow players are subjected to that sort of treatment themselves, so with these other human beings in mind, i wouldn't like to see such demands be answered to your liking, becaue a player who's been bullied over their skin color or sexual orientation should not take a break from their reality in a videogame and encounter the same thing there too. Making such options available just to please a portion of the audience of dubious human quality would be in my opinion a mistake and might harm the series too. And i think it would show true skill from the writers if they manage to stick to the world they built and make things work in that context instead of patching it up with bits of IRL hateful remarks from groups of people we all know are what's wrong with this world.
"Variety in romance options and SJW" and "why don't we get the option to be racist a-holes in game" are two separate -if similar- parts of the discussion on this thread, maybe you missed that.
.
You can flirt with Dorian all you like, or you can just not, and you can choose not to start a romance with the guy, but going through easily 70 hours of gameplay encountering racist/homophobic/transphobic dialogue options throughout the entire game, that wouldn't be the same thing. You can't avoid that, even if the player chooses not to use those options, they've already seen them. On the other hand, it takes some time and work to get to see Dorian's naked behind, just because the character is gay doesn't mean you will have to see his gay scenes.
Non-heterosexual/heteronormative romance content can't be equated with bigotry dialogue options, the former are inclusive and not necessarily in your face unless you go for them, while the latter would be unavoidable to the eye and would contribute to further normalize such a despicable behaviour. You can still make an evil Inquisitor working within the Thedosian context just fine. I made a human mage, and made her so Andrastian i couldn't stand her so i deleted her file. I managed to make myself a character i loathed so much i terminated it. Without attacking random characters for being black, homosexual or trans.
Of course, you're mind's all set, you won't care about any of this, but may i point out you might have gotten your EA games mixed up? I think the game you're after is The Sims. Go mercilessly starve sims to death and torture them in the pool without a ladder, have them pick up a fight with their black neighbours or violently reject a same-sex sim approach. The world of DA already has its own social, cultural, religious and political issues you're deciding to ignore because that fantasy fiction doesn't mirror reality to perfection, but The Sims is a blank page, have fun. Go wild with all that freedom.
Back to what this thread was originally about, i'm looking forward to seeing what Weekes does. I liked much of what he did for DA:I so i'm curious what he'll do now that he's the lead writer. I hope he destroys all my expectations and trolls us all. As i'm equally intrigued about Gaider's new secret project, very much intrigued.
Not at all. Your first point was that non-heterosexual romances should be included despite some people not wanting them in the game because such romances are optional. Those who don't like seeing those romances can choose not to engage in them in-game.
The same argument applies to dialogue wheel responses on social issues such as transgenderism. Yet you took the opposite position on that. The sort of position you had just rebuked.
Also, you assume that our demand is freedom to be hatful, but it isn't. That's just your own prejudicial opinion of us. We simply don't want to be stuck with the responses of, "I support you completely in your identity and will stand with you against anyone who disagrees" or "I am shamefully uneducated in these matters and need someone to help me put on my big boy pants".
Yes, and he outright says that he does not practice blood magic during Cole's amulet quest.
Which means it MUST be the truth. ![=]](https://lvlt.forum.bioware.com/public/style_emoticons/default/sideways.png)
For the people argueing that "wahhh not being able to be <insert minority here>phobic is bad and restricting the player, waahhh!"
I support choice. I also support the freedom that marginalized, abused, bullied, threatened, murdered, assaulted and disowned demographics of people can choose a game where they aren't being faced with their daily struggle.
Plus you get to use and see other forms of discrimination. Forms that fit in Thedas. This whole templar/mage conflict is in fact a great opportunity to act like a generalizing douche.
So I'm okay with being told "no, you can't be transphobic/racist, but you can TOTES sh*t all over elves! Or mages!"
Either way there's plenty of other games where you can be a douche. (Load up GTA, pick a random demographic and start murdering everyone of that demographic.)
Anyway, on the other hand:
Well good for you but i don't want your views or somone else forced on me while im playing in the game particularly rpg.Well no one forces them to play that way it is optional ,not your concern or anyone else what kind off character i end up playing.
So what ,it is just stupid it is like saying that it is fine with being forced to like character A because you can dislike character B ,If topic comes up i want to my character have various opinions on that topic not to be forced to certain views because writer want to push their views on me.
So? Gta isn't Rpg in first place.
That Bioware, how dare they refuse to allow you to express IRL prejudices that have no part or justification in the setting
Patrick Weekes is an excellent writer. Not just character, but story arcs. He also seems to have the ability to empathize which is really important for a writer.
If topic comes up i want to my character have various opinions on that topic not to be forced to certain views because writer want to push their views on me.
So? Gta isn't Rpg in first place.
This is what i was looking for.
...
So, prejudicial opinion about my psyche followed by a deflection to an irrelevant issue. At least you acknowledged your own deflection. Care to respond to my actual point now? I wrote that what you are suggestion is similar to a Qunari origin character in Seheron not following the Qun because those choices would be considered phobic toward "whatever", which includes things that aren't transgenderism.
Krem said the replacement healer offered to tell the tribune that mental illness was to blame, some pity for the "mad little girl". Which goes to show how well you listened to Krem. What gives? Were you disinterested in Krem's character? Did you feel any aversion because Krem was speaking to you? I certainly hope bigotry and transphobia didn't play a role in your oversight.
There's no deflection; I ouiright address your point (in fact, I spent a paragraph on it). I just found it incredibly ironic that, to illustrate your point about how the writers shouldn't permit choices inconsistent with a prejudiced setting by analogy you picked the Qun, strict adherence to which would absolutely outlaw any prejudicial comment aimed at a transgendered character.
You failed to understand Krem's story entirely. Here are the things Krem says about everyone in Tevinter he dealt with:
1) His mother said that if he didn't marry well he'd doom their family to slavery.
2) Krem's father, when Krem was young, "angled his mirror down" so Krem could pretend to shave. He "never said anything" but Krem thinks he knew.
3) Tevinter only allows military service in "certain ranks and disciplines". Krem bribed a healer who cover for him, which worked entirely fine.
4) There was a replacement healer who had a different view. The healer "made threats". It was "slavery or death". Krem ran.
5) In response to "Passing is illegal?" Krem said: "It's a crime to lie on an Imperial application for service. Would've been a heavy fine or slavery." Then Krem says "For ten silvers, the healer said he'd tell the tribune I was sick in the head. Some pity for the mad little girl."
Krem's crime wasn't passing. Krem's crime was lying. The Mage wanted a bribe, but wasn't about to let the whole thing slide. I'm not the one failing to listen to the story. The second sentence is a fragment, but in the context, apart from the obvious insult thrown at Krem, the healer was angling for a bribe to save Krem "a heavy fine or slavery". "Some pity for the mad little girl" is obviously a direct quote - the excuse the healer would throw out to "help" Krem wiggle out of the fraud charge, all in return for the ten silver bribe.
Don't take my word for it; watch it yourself, if you can stop congratulating yourself for how you (think) you "got" me:
That from that you'd draw the conclusion there's some rampant prejudice in Tevinter is ridiculous. Like with Dorian, Krem's family's issue was how Krem failing to conform to the social norms would hurt their wellbeing (they were poor and would be poorer). With the military, the issue was fraud (and sexism, because units are gender segregated).
No, Weekes thinks having an opposing response on the issue of gender identity is somehow a terrible and offensive injustice to people in the real world. It has nothing to do with your "zots", whatever those are. I assume you're referring to development resources.
I understand that the game can't feature a ton of various choices that would take the story in multiple directions. I'm referring to a response on the dialogue wheel. Other issues get varied responses, so why not this too?
Think of it this way. Take the human noble origin in DA:O for example. You cannot choose to stay behind and help your mother. If you did the game would end. So clearly that cannot be an option. But the origin story does feature various other choices, like how you choose to respond to Mother Mallol. You can show that you are faithful or that you don't believe in the Chant. You can show Aldous that you know history or not. You can be respectful to Nan or threaten her. You can be courteous to your mother's guests or insulting.
See the difference? We're not asking for major storyline changes. We're asking for the ability to define our characters on issues that are brought before them in the game.
There's no difference, other than the fact that you think getting to yell some obscenities at a particular character on an IRL social issue is "defining your character" in some special way that's intrinsically worth development resources over some other choice, like yelling at Aldous or Mother Mallol that you think the eldery are leeches on the wealth of the Couslands and that they should be replaced with younger, and therefore less expensive to support, staff.
There's no difference, other than the fact that you think getting to yell some obscenities at a particular character on an IRL social issue is "defining your character" in some special way that's intrinsically worth development resources over some other choice, like yelling at Aldous or Mother Mallol that you think the eldery are leeches on the wealth of the Couslands and that they should be replaced with younger, and therefore less expensive to support, staff.
You got to admit, the series is definitely restricting your ability to be an evil dick more and more with each game. And that includes being able to be a bigot, if you so choose. For goodness sakes, you could break up with Zevran because you found out he's had sex with men before if ask about his past sexual encounters. Breaking up with someone because they've been in a same-sex relationship before is the very definition of being able to be a bigot, and you was allowed it. I've never done that to him, because I want to be able to actually like my characters. But it's still a loss of RP ability that previous games gave you.
His quests are well written, but he repeats the same few tricks and he created some issues for future ME game.He also wrote some of the best Mass Effect stuff, I hear. Tali, Mordin...
Harassing someone simply over something they are wearing is most definitely bullying. It doesn't matter what someone wears or what they look like it only matters what they actually do and say.
On topic however I thought Gaider stopped being the official lead writer months ago, it's just more talked about now?
Criticism doesn't necessarily rise to the level of harassment. Was he being sent death and rape threats or doxxed? Was anyone threatening to show up at his house and teach him a lesson? Nope. Those are tactics used against feminists like Sarkeesian. That's harassment and bullying. Saying that a shirt is a problem and explaining why is not. I'll admit, I felt bad for the guy when he cried but my feeling bad for him didn't change the fact that his shirt was still sexist.
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