318 réponses à ce sujet

[maia0407]

Coward. You can't spend a mere 20 minutes watching a video, because of it having a position you don't like. Every time. This happens every time. You send a video to a SJW that you know will utterly destroy their position, and they find some excuse to not watch it. Every. Single. Time. Without exception. There has not been a single instance in the entire time I've dealt with them where this pattern was broken. And once again, pattern continued. Can you guys not be predictable, just once? No matter, other people likely watched it. I suppose trying to change the mind of an Anita fanboy/fangirl is like making a creationist accept evolution... Won't happen, they won't listen.

All the hysterical goading in the world isn't going to shame me into watching it. I've exlained my reasons and you've made your interpretation as to my 'real motivations' which is fine. And yet I still don't see any actual arguments. Go figure.

[Donk]

Ah yes it bothered me as well with my Inquisitors who are anti-Chantry. It would be nice if at least inner circle had decency to stop calling you that after you have said it to them couple times ^^;

I don't personally think it would be that good idea to have dialogue options like that. It wouldn't fit that well to the world I think, since transphobia doesn't seem to be thing. Though I think some other dialogue options were quite akward in terms of fitting to the world as well with Krem.

That's actually a good point. I have never recalled in any DA game talk of transphobia.

In fact, the concept is depicted in a "not really a big deal" manner, which is how it should be imo. Of course, people still have bugs up their arses about it for some reason I can't really comprehend.

[Panda]

I don't think they did. All the talk about aqun-athlok came from Hissrad (which means liar). He could have just been saying that to make Krem feel better, or to pretend that this is what the Qun actually believes because it's what he wants the Qun to believe.

 

It isn't my interpretation of what Sten said, it's what he actually said. The writers cannot refute this. So if they contradict it then they are in conflict with the canon and are thus wrong.

 

Well it's more like combining Iron Bull's word with what writer said in terms of Iron Bull's words and qunari's view on gender.

 

Qunari see gender differently so that gives bit leeway to Bioware use interpretation of Sten's words that don't conflict with qunari that much. I was quite suprised myself that qunari is accepting in terms of transgenders when it otherwise isn't really, but I see it mostly as readjustment of the lore, slightly alternation maybe, but something that is canon since it's newest information and correction to Qun's view of gender.

[Dai Grepher]

I don't agree that SJW's were demanding choice to reject being chosen by Andraste, I think it's more like DA players who like playing elf characters or pro-mage characters mostly. Though I want that option as well for some of my characters, Andraste is very in-game thing and not being able to refuse would limit my especially my elven characters a lot who have their own gods. I don't think it was as much as demanding than asking and Bioware confirming that there is choice to reject it.

 

I wanted the option too, but I'm not an SJW either. But I think the SJW group was fully behind that, and for them to demand choice for a faith based issue but not a philosophically based issue is hypocritical, in my opinion.
 

[andy6915]

All the hysterical goading in the world isn't going to shame me into watching it. I've exlained my reasons and you've made your interpretation as to my 'real motivations' which is fine. And yet I still don't see any actual arguments. Go figure.

You haven't explained a sodding thing.

[Donk]

Mmmm... no, I'm pretty sure they don't have the right to physically assault someone because they said something they didn't like. I'm also sure transgenders would take great offense at such a depiction of a transgender character being violent when someone refuses to affirm their belief.

I didn't just say punch them out, I also said he should be allowed to say something nasty back.

And why not? Its okay to punch Solas out after he says something bigoted to your Inquisitor. Don't try and turn this around with a false higher moral ground to try and win an argument. I see what you are doing here.

I'm just gonna be blunt with you mate. You argue in circles upon circles, and claim to be some higher authority on any matter, even David Gaider, the ex writer himself.. I'm not interested in discussing anything with you. I've done it before, not gonna waste my time on you again.

By all means, go ahead and do a victory dance. I don't mind a discussion, but you're just a baiter. Not sure if you're actually genuine in what you say or do, or that you're just a very effective troll. Either way I'm not feeding you.

[Dai Grepher]

Well it's more like combining Iron Bull's word with what writer said in terms of Iron Bull's words and qunari's view on gender.

 

Qunari see gender differently so that gives bit leeway to Bioware use interpretation of Sten's words that don't conflict with qunari that much. I was quite suprised myself that qunari is accepting in terms of transgenders when it otherwise isn't really, but I see it mostly as readjustment of the lore, slightly alternation maybe, but something that is canon since it's newest information and correction to Qun's view of gender.

 

I don't think we need to combine Iron Bull's statements with those of the writers. Iron Bull makes it quite clear what he thinks. He said that those who wish to be warriors will be considered aqun-athlok and looked at as real men. Hissrad is lying.

 

New information does not make it canon or a correction. I think the writers need to actually confirm that it's a rewrite and that's the story they're going with from that point onward. As it stands, they have only presented another Qunari who contradicts pre-established lore on the issue, and the writers have made factually incorrect statements.

[maia0407]

I don't agree that SJW's were demanding choice to reject being chosen by Andraste, I think it's more like DA players who like playing elf characters or pro-mage characters mostly. Though I want that option as well for some of my characters, Andraste is very in-game thing and not being able to refuse would limit my especially my elven characters a lot who have their own gods. I don't think it was as much as demanding than asking and Bioware confirming that there is choice to reject it.

Yeah, I played both my elf and human character as a non-believer in Andrastianism. Probably made more sense for my elf to be the non-believer though. It's easier to play as a non-believer as I'm not one in real life. I should probably create an Andrastian character just to see how that plays out. Who will agree and disagree with me?

[Dieb]

Mmmm... no, I'm pretty sure they don't have the right to physically assault someone because they said something they didn't like. I'm also sure transgenders would take great offense at such a depiction of a transgender character being violent when someone refuses to affirm their belief.

 

This is rock bottom, son.

 

For the sake of yourself and other people in your life, I hope (and I mean this with sincerity and free of vindictive snark) that you shall encounter someone who manages to truly reach out to you and change your heart.

[Dai Grepher]

I didn't just say punch them out, I also said he should be allowed to say something nasty back.

And why not? Its okay to punch Solas out after he says something bigoted to your Inquisitor. Don't try and turn this around with a false higher moral ground to try and win an argument. I see what you are doing here.

I'm just gonna be blunt with you mate. You argue in circles upon circles, and claim to be some higher authority on any matter, even David Gaider, the ex writer himself.. I'm not interested in discussing anything with you. I've done it before, not gonna waste my time on you again.

By all means, go ahead and do a victory dance. I don't mind a discussion, but you're just a baiter. Not sure if you're actually genuine in what you say or do, or that you're just a very effective troll. Either way I'm not feeding you.

 

Yeah, that's fine if they want to say something back, but that isn't what I was addressing. I addressed the part about punching someone out.

 

It's possible to punch Solas. That doesn't mean it's okay. I'm not trying to do anything here. People don't have the right to physically assault someone because they didn't like what they said.

 

I never claimed to be any kind of authority. I claimed the canon is the top authority.

 

Or you could just disagree and move on. I'm not trying to drag you into an argument.
 

[Panda]

I wanted the option too, but I'm not an SJW either. But I think the SJW group was fully behind that, and for them to demand choice for a faith based issue but not a philosophically based issue is hypocritical, in my opinion.
 

 

I don't really see it as social justice issue though, more on role-playing one in terms of can I roleplay as non-Andrastian or not (or someone who is Andrastian, but doesn't believe Andraste gave the mark to him/her).

[maia0407]

I don't really see it as social justice issue though, more on role-playing one in terms of can I roleplay as non-Andrastian or not (or someone who is Andrastian, but doesn't believe Andraste gave the mark to him/her).

I can see the argument that being able to choose to be non-religious as a social justice issue since atheists are not well received in many parts of the world. In the case of DA, I don't think it's really been a problem, though, as we've always had that option.

[ManchesterUnitedFan1]

Weekes stated that he would add more transgender content to the next game, and that options to disagree with it would not be implemented for player choice purposes. He also stated that if players don't like that, then they should not play Dragon Age anymore.

 

I disapprove of efforts to restrict player choice.
 

 

Do you also disapprove of the fact that we're not allowed to say that we don't want Vivienne on the party because she's black ?Or that we're not allowed to fire Josephine for being female?

 

Or do you think giving people options to be racist towards Vivienne would have been bad? If so, why does that not limit player choice while not allowing people to make fun of transgender people does?

[maia0407]

Do you also disapprove of the fact that we're not allowed to say that we don't want Vivienne on the party because she's black ?Or that we're not allowed to fire Josephine for being female?

Don't the people arguing against inclusiveness and not being able to abuse those different than them ever get tired of being on the wrong side of history?

[Panda]

I can see the argument that being able to choose to be non-religious as a social justice issue since atheists are not well received in many parts of the world. In the case of DA, I don't think it's really been a problem, though, as we've always had that option.

 

I guess, but I haven't really seen people talking about it in that way and religion doesn't seem to be as social justice thing at least in terms of gaming as some other issues are labeled such.

[Panda]

I don't think we need to combine Iron Bull's statements with those of the writers. Iron Bull makes it quite clear what he thinks. He said that those who wish to be warriors will be considered aqun-athlok and looked at as real men. Hissrad is lying.

 

New information does not make it canon or a correction. I think the writers need to actually confirm that it's a rewrite and that's the story they're going with from that point onward. As it stands, they have only presented another Qunari who contradicts pre-established lore on the issue, and the writers have made factually incorrect statements.

 

Writers statement is explanation on what lead them to write Iron Bull's statement on Qun and transgenders.

 

Well it's newest and more detailed information and game series has evolved bit from DAO so I'd say that this newer information is correction to Sten's information. But I don't think we will agree on this ^^;

[SharpWalkers]

Just to comment on one of the things that wasn't what the thread was about, but seemed to have taken over:

 

 

Should I be allowed to - should there be the option to - be a massive dickhead to trans-people and other minorities (or anyone for that matter)? Yes, I should. If I'm roleplaying a f*k*ng intense arse, that is a horrible person to everyone anyway, who would not think twice about killing a child (*ahem* Hi, Connor.), and would slaughter everything in it's way, why the hell should there be a line drawn before that character being a dick to (in this case) transgenders? 

 

With the blood of babes on his hands, [name] turned around to [transgender person] - who seemed intimidated and scared by this bloody monster - and asked an awkard question.

 

Some seem to forget this is supposed to be a role-playing game, and the inclusion of being able to be a you-name-it-phobic bastard, doesn't somehow negate the kind, open and warmhearted responses - not does it (necessarily) represent someones real world opinions. But I guess the world of social issues is too black-and-white, currently.

 

Anyway, go be a dick in DA:O or Jade Empire, it's hilarious. Even if you're, like me, not at all a mean spirited person. Better to get whatever of it you have out of your system in the pre-defined situations of a videogame, I say.

Modifié par SharpWalkers, 20 juillet 2015 - 01:34 .

[maia0407]

I guess, but I haven't really seen people talking about it in that way and religion doesn't seem to be as social justice thing at least in terms of gaming as some other issues are labeled such.

I agree. Religion doesn't seem to be a big issue in the gaming community for whatever reason. Kind of weird how progressive people can be on some issues and still so retrograde in others. I'm not really surprised though; many of the big names in atheism, such as Dawkins, really let me down on some of their statements regarding feminist issues. I've just started to accept that rational conclusions on some issues don't necessarily lead to rational conclusions in other areas. People still have their blind spots.

[Panda]

Just to comment on one of the things that wasn't what the thread was about, but seemed to have taken over:

 

 

Should I be allowed to - should there be the option to - be a massive dickhead to trans-people and other minorities? Yes, I should. If I'm roleplaying a f*k*ng intense arse, that would not think twice about killing a child (*ahem* Hi, Connor.), and would slaughter everything in it's way, and is a horrible person to everyone anyway, why the hell should there be a line drawn before (in this case) transgenders? 

 

With the blood of babes on his hands, [name] turned around to [transgender person] - who seemed intimidated and scared by this bloody monster - and asked an awkard question.

 

Some seem to forget this is supposed to be a role-playing game, and the inclusion of being able to be a you-name-it-phobic bastard, doesn't somehow negate the kind, open and warmhearted responses - not does it (necessarily) represent someones real world opinions. But I guess the world of social issues is too black-and-white, currently.

 

Anyway, go be a dick in DA:O or Jade Empire, it's hilarious. Even if you're, like me, not at all a mean spirited person. Better to get it out of your system in the pre-defined situations of a videogame.

 

DA games have always given you option to be dick though, but just in way that makes sense lore-wise. You can slaughter elven clan in DAO, be racist against Qunaris in DA2 and side with sister Petrice and punch faces of your followers in DAI. But, you can't in lot of ways be jerk in Dragon age how you can be in real life. You can't call Vivienne slurs based on her skin color, cause racism in Thedas is bit different. I'm not sure if you can in DAI, but in terms of Thedas I think there could be option to look down her, because she's mage though. Transphobia itself doesn't seem to exist like it does IRL in Thedas, since homophobia doesn't exist either similarly.

[ManchesterUnitedFan1]

I agree. Religion doesn't seem to be a big issue in the gaming community for whatever reason. Kind of weird how progressive people can be on some issues and still so retrograde in others. I'm not really surprised though; many of the big names in atheism, such as Dawkins, really let me down on some of their statements regarding feminist issues. I've just started to accept that rational conclusions on some issues don't necessarily lead to rational conclusions in other areas. People still have their blind spots.

 

I don't know, lots of people were unhappy about the fact that there are people in Hijabs in Dreamfall Chapters IIRC.

[TheKomandorShepard]

DA games have always given you option to be dick though, but just in way that makes sense lore-wise. You can slaughter elven clan in DAO, be racist against Qunaris in DA2 and side with sister Petrice and punch faces of your followers in DAI. But, you can't in lot of ways be jerk in Dragon age how you can be in real life. You can't call Vivienne slurs based on her skin color, cause racism in Thedas is bit different. I'm not sure if you can in DAI, but in terms of Thedas I think there could be option to look down her, because she's mage though. Transphobia itself doesn't seem to exist like it does IRL in Thedas, since homophobia doesn't exist either similarly.

Again they can't don't exist because those are negative feelings about said minorities so pretty much what you are saying that someone can't dislike someone for something. 

[maia0407]

I don't know, lots of people were unhappy about the fact that there are people in Hijabs in Dreamfall Chapters IIRC.

Ah, I didn't know about that controversy but I don't play many games either and not that one. I'm not surprised in that regard either though. Several of the big names in atheism, Harris and Hitchens come to mind, have made controversial statements regarding muslims and many of their supporters feel the same.

[Dieb]

Just to comment on one of the things that wasn't what the thread was about, but seemed to have taken over:

 

 

Should I be allowed to - should there be the option to - be a massive dickhead to trans-people and other minorities (or anyone for that matter)? Yes, I should. If I'm roleplaying a f*k*ng intense arse, that is a horrible person to everyone anyway, who would not think twice about killing a child (*ahem* Hi, Connor.), and would slaughter everything in it's way, why the hell should there be a line drawn before (in this case) transgenders?

 

Because we are humans, and these kinds of flavours don't compare in dramaturgy.

 

This argument comes up constantly, but it is depressing apples versus sad oranges. The multiplicator for tragedy is not "blood by the litre", or even "death toll", it's simple comprehensibility.  It's the same reason why the movie "Braindead" isn't anywhere nearly as disturbing as, say, "Full Metal Jacket".

 

I wager, if you saw a whole population of peaceful, innocent yet alien beings dying by being blown up into splatter and pieces, we would still be more shocked about a depiction of single human child being raped, without being killed "at all".

[Panda]

Again they can't don't exist because those are negative feelings about said minorities so pretty much what you are saying that someone can't dislike someone for something. 

 

Umm no? You can have negative feelings about minorities or majorities of Dragon Age. You can't have negative feelings towards minorities and majorities in Dragon Age that doesn't exist there.

[SharpWalkers]

DA games have always given you option to be dick though, but just in way that makes sense lore-wise. You can slaughter elven clan in DAO, be racist against Qunaris in DA2 and side with sister Petrice and punch faces of your followers in DAI. But, you can't in lot of ways be jerk in Dragon age how you can be in real life. You can't call Vivienne slurs based on her skin color, cause racism in Thedas is bit different. I'm not sure if you can in DAI, but in terms of Thedas I think there could be option to look down her, because she's mage though. Transphobia itself doesn't seem to exist like it does IRL in Thedas, since homophobia doesn't exist either similarly.

 

Sure, but even if transphobia doesn't exist in Thedas like it does IRL, that would still mean my character should be able to be an arse to them, only difference being is that it would (perhaps) not be because my PDA (Player Dick-Arse - coining it.) would be transphobic. The thing now is, you simply can't even say to Krem "sod off, I don't like you." Granted you can get him killed, but that would be way too passive-aggresively for my arsehole.... I might rephrase that later.

 

Your character's negative response, at worst, seems to be.. indifferent, maybe? If you can at least be a semi-dick to everyone else, why not to him? That seems to be just Bioware trying not to step on anyone's toes, no matter if you're being mean because he's transgender or because your character just doesn't like him (I want to stress this, for this point).

 

I'd say that's limiting the role-playability, and is, honestly, also kinda cowardly. Rather than work out some great dialogue after that negativety towards him and probably having a massive drop in approval from Iron Bull, better just not include it, lest they anger someone, despite the ingame consequenses of being a bastard.

 

But I don't know. The black-and-white nature of most political arguments tends to make me very tired. So I might just be going crazy.