318 réponses à ce sujet

[maia0407]

Sure, but even if transphobia doesn't exist in Thedas like it does IRL, that would still mean my character should be able to be an arse to them, only difference being is that it would (perhaps) not be because my PDA (Player Dick-Arse - coining it.) would be transphobic. The thing now is, you simply can't even say to Krem "****** off, I don't like you." Granted you can get him killed, but that would be way too passive-aggresively for my *******.... I might rephrase that later.

Your character's negative response, at worst, seems to be.. indifferent, maybe? If you can at least be a semi-dick to everyone else, why not to him? That seems to be just Bioware trying not to step on anyone's toes, no matter if you're being mean because he's transgender or because your character just doesn't like him (I want to stress this, for this point).

I'd say that's limiting the role-playability, and is, honestly, also kinda cowardly. Rather than work out some great dialogue after that negativety towards him and probably having a massive drop in approval from Iron Bull, better just not include it, lest they ****** someone off, despite the ingame consequenses of being a bastard.

 

But I don't know. The black-and-white nature of most political arguments tends to make me very tired. So I might just be going crazy.

 

But why is Krem being singled out specifically to tell to **** off? Why isn't anyone arguing to be able to abuse Sutherland or Harding? Rhetorical questions, as I know the answers. People don't like him because he's transgender and some players would like to abuse him for that. Transgender people get abused enough in real life. I'm happy I don't have to even look at the disgusting option in game.

 

ETA: I know some will argue that the option to abuse Krem won't affect me or anyone else. Sure, it won't affect my game other than I'll have to see that option. But, it normalizes that reaction for people and I don't want to see the self-congratulatory threads here where the bigots go to gloat over how they hurt Krem.

[TheKomandorShepard]

Umm no? You can have negative feelings about minorities or majorities of Dragon Age. You can't have negative feelings towards minorities and majorities in Dragon Age that doesn't exist there.

Yes because homosexual people clearly don't exist in dragon age .

[SharpWalkers]

But why is Krem being singled out specifically to tell to **** off? Why isn't anyone arguing to be able to abuse Sutherland or Harding? Rhetorical questions, as I know the answers. People don't like him because he's transgender and some players would like to abuse him for that. Transgender people get abused enough in real life. I'm happy I don't have to even look at the disgusting option in game.

 

ETA: I know some will argue that the option to abuse Krem won't affect me or anyone else. Sure, it won't affect my game other than I'll have to see that option. But, it normalizes that reaction for people and I don't want to see the self-congratulatory threads here where the bigots go to gloat over how they hurt Krem.

 

Have you read my previous post? Doesn't seem like it. I comment on Krem because transgenders where the example used somewhere in this thread, and, unlike (most?) other characters, you literally cannot be a dick to him, for whatever reason you would be. I LIKE Krem perfectly fine, however, considering this is supposed to be an RPG, and I'm not gonna be playing the same sweetheart every playthrough, being a dick to whoever for whatever reason helps when you're rolplaying a nasty character. Being kinda 'meh' about character undermines that. I'd welcome the chance to be mean to Sutherland and Harding (I'm pretty sure I already could be very dismissive to her), because, again, it ups the amount of roleplaying.

 

I wanted my elf to be 'elf above all else, all you nubbins are inferior', you could get close enough to that in DA:O, but in the end, in DA:I, I ended being just nice and 'yay elves' when I had the rare oppurtunity. So you can pretend to know me, with your answer to your retorical questions, but that doesn't make it true. All I want is to be able to roleplay a variety of characters.

 

Saying it normalizes the reaction - implying it would make people bigotted IRL? - is like saying violence in videogames normalizes violence and makes people violent IRL. Entire studies have disproven that. 

[maia0407]

I'm not saying that allowing bigotry turns people into bigots. I'm saying that it normalizes bigoted reactions for people that are already bigots.

[Panda]

Sure, but even if transphobia doesn't exist in Thedas like it does IRL, that would still mean my character should be able to be an arse to them, only difference being is that it would (perhaps) not be because my PDA (Player Dick-Arse - coining it.) would be transphobic. The thing now is, you simply can't even say to Krem "sod off, I don't like you." Granted you can get him killed, but that would be way too passive-aggresively for my arsehole.... I might rephrase that later.

Your character's negative response, at worst, seems to be.. indifferent, maybe? If you can at least be a semi-dick to everyone else, why not to him? That seems to be just Bioware trying not to step on anyone's toes, no matter if you're being mean because he's transgender or because your character just doesn't like him (I want to stress this, for this point).

I'd say that's limiting the role-playability, and is, honestly, also kinda cowardly. Rather than work out some great dialogue after that negativety towards him and probably having a massive drop in approval from Iron Bull, better just not include it, lest they anger someone, despite the ingame consequenses of being a bastard.

 

But I don't know. The black-and-white nature of most political arguments tends to make me very tired. So I might just be going crazy.

 

 

I don't think you can be rude to every character in the game though. I agree that Bioware could have had option to be rude to Krem in way that fits Thedas. Maybe sth related to being Tevinter. I don't really see any problem in that.

[Panda]

Yes because homosexual people clearly don't exist in dragon age .

 

Huh, where did you come to this conclusion?

 

Thedas has different social issues as we do and divided people to groups differently. Racism is different though it's still based on differences and ****** nor transphobia needs to be similar there as it is IRL nor they need to exist.

 

EDIT: No idea why that word still is blocked here, but I guess people can guess what it is.

 

Also sorry for being somewhat off-topic in this thread XD Cause I guess this is still about Gaider leaving and new writer (Weekes) replacing him.

[AlanC9]

I wanted the option too, but I'm not an SJW either.

You're not? You seem to spend all your time on this board advocating for your social issues.

[SharpWalkers]

 

I'm not saying that allowing bigotry turns people into bigots. I'm saying that it normalizes bigoted reactions for people that are already bigots.

 

Then the problem, obviously, is the bigots, not the option of being able to be an utter, all inclusive arse in an RPG. Their ignorance doesn't need to come at the cost of being able to roleplay in an roleplaying game. And if bigots want to start threads about how they loved insulting transgender characters, let them. Let them revel in it while the majority of the western world thinks they're idiots, and would probably prefer to see every one of them replaced with a transgender - for the irony of it, if nothing else. 

[Cyberstrike nTo]

It's not even just about being evil. At this point it's more about BioWare forcing thought control on players. And no one would be cool with this if the situation were reversed. In fact, they weren't. People demanded that we be allowed to refuse the title of Herald of Andraste. They wanted the option to say they were not chosen by Andraste. So all the social justice warriors demanding a dialogue option be banned because they personally don't like it just seems awfully hypocritical to me.

 

So SJWs are forcing BioWare writers to take away your right to be a douchebag in their games? Bull shite.

 

I don't force David Gaider, Patrick Weeks, or any other creator in any media to make a game "my way" or any way. It's the creators' choice. Not mine, Not SJWs. 

[TheKomandorShepard]

Huh, where did you come to this conclusion?

 

Thedas has different social issues as we do and divided people to groups differently. Racism is different though it's still based on differences and ****** nor transphobia needs to be similar there as it is IRL nor they need to exist.

 

From you comment that claims people can't have negative feeling toward group that doesn't exist... 

 

Homosexual people are people that are attracted to same gender and yes they do exist in thedas and there is obvious distiction between people that are attraced to same gender and not by very nature ,even in some cultures and in some social circles in thedas homosexuality is seen in not very good light.

 

You are talking about how well that minority is accepted in society , doesn't change simple fact that person still can hate/dislike that particular minority and that is pretty much homophobia , so yes it does exist as nothing would prevent individual from disliking group of people that can be thrown into one bag. Same goes for sexism as i already an gave example despite society accepts men and women in both thedas and in our society doesn't change fact there are individuals that dislike men or women.   

 

[Panda]

From you comment that claims people can't have negative feeling toward group that doesn't exist... 

 

Homsexual people are people that are attracted to same gender and yes they do exist in thedas and there is obvious distiction between that people that are attraced to same gender and not by very nature ,even in some cultures and in some social circles in thedas homosexuality is seen in not very good light.

 

You are talking about how well that minority is accepted in society , doesn't change simple fact that person still can hate/dislike that particular minority and that is pretty much homophobia , so yes it does exist as nothing would prevent individual from disliking group of people that can be thrown into one bag. Same goes for sexism as i already gave example despite society accepts men and women in both thedas and in out society doesn't change fact there are individuals that dislike men or women.   

 

 

I didn't mean that people who are homosexuals don't exist in Thedas. However there is not strong division of people according their sexualities to minority and majority in Thedas. Most problems that stems from homosexuality in Thedas seem to be based on duty and continuing family line and not the sexuality itself and it's quite universally accepted I'd say. Playing with homophobic character in Thedas would be similar as claiming to everyone you dislike all people who are blond IRL in my opinion.

[In Exile]

You got to admit, the series is definitely restricting your ability to be an evil dick more and more with each game. And that includes being able to be a bigot, if you so choose. For goodness sakes, you could break up with Zevran because you found out he's had sex with men before if ask about his past sexual encounters. Breaking up with someone because they've been in a same-sex relationship before is the very definition of being able to be a bigot, and you was allowed it. I've never done that to him, because I want to be able to actually like my characters. But it's still a loss of RP ability that previous games gave you.

 

It is restricting your ability to be a dick, sure. I happen to think the option is worthless, and replacing it basically everything else is valuable, but that's a fair point. This is because the option to be a dick is a consequence-free moment where the player can just get off on trolling (whomever) doesn't add anything to the game. It's a bit like some of the renegade options in ME - they out Shepard as a complete and utter loon who not only should be discharged immediately from the army, but probably should receive immediate psychiatric care. 

[uzivatel]

DA games have always given you option to be dick though, but just in way that makes sense lore-wise. You can slaughter elven clan in DAO, be racist against Qunaris in DA2 and side with sister Petrice and punch faces of your followers in DAI. But, you can't in lot of ways be jerk in Dragon age how you can be in real life. You can't call Vivienne slurs based on her skin color, cause racism in Thedas is bit different. I'm not sure if you can in DAI, but in terms of Thedas I think there could be option to look down her, because she's mage though. Transphobia itself doesn't seem to exist like it does IRL in Thedas, since homophobia doesn't exist either similarly.

Elves, qunari, dog lords, mages etc. wont sue BioWare...

[TheKomandorShepard]

I didn't mean that people who are homosexuals don't exist in Thedas. However there is not strong division of people according their sexualities to minority and majority in Thedas. Most problems that stems from homosexuality in Thedas seem to be based on duty and continuing family line and not the sexuality itself and it's quite universally accepted I'd say. Playing with homophobic character in Thedas would be similar as claiming to everyone you dislike all people who are blond IRL in my opinion.

There is division as i said by very nature and this is noticed and sometimes even as i said undesired in Thedas.Again what you are talking about is social acceptance of homosexuailty even if it is accepted by society there is still distiction ,and there are people who dislike blond hair and perhaps even people that hate people that are blond , i have meet person that couldn't stand me on basic that person didn't like clothes i was usually wearing.  

[MaaEnyo]

From what i've been reading here, i'm surprised people is more concerned about getting the option to insult or punch a transgender character, or tell Vivienne she's too black to sit with the cool kids, and no one has yet suggested they get the option to idk, raid a small village and rape everyone there, or the option to take your own slave. Y'know, for roleplayability's sake. Some are defending their demands a bit too much on the transphobia front, going on and on about why can't they get the options to roleplay as a dickhead or evil bastard, yet they're not going as far as demanding things like a rape or slave option, even though in situations of war it wouldn't be uncommon at all for such things to happen. It would even be realistic yet no one's asking that be an option. Ask yourselves why is that. If being able to roleplay with total freedom is such a big concern, why not go all the way? Hm, could it be because demanding certain things would be going too far? Because some things are just plain wrong and all too damn real to be reproduced in a videogame such as this? Specially in a game that focuses on other issues such as religious freedom, in-game racism, politics and the very fabric of the universe it unfolds into. Let's face it, roleplayability is not the real reason behind this, it's just being presented as an excuse. You're not asking for a rape or slave option because, among other things one would like to assume such as basic human decency, the City Elf origin made it clear from the very beginning those things are not OK. After portraying transgender characters as prostitutes, BioWare listened, corrected themselves and gave us Krem. You would too have asked they changed things if, being a white male, you saw the game portray white males as prostitutes only. I don't see it as much as a SJW thing as it is really just BioWare trying to include a wider demographic. It may be the DA staff being nice and PC, sure, but it's also business. Does this affect the game in a negative way? Not yet, IMO. It will if they make more changes just to please everyone while sacrificing plot and character development and the overall quality of the game in the process. Not giving you the option to reproduce IRL crap does none of such things. 

 

As RPG as DA games may be, there are clear limitations to the roleplay the game allows, and those limitations are defined by the writers who chose to make DA about other things. There's a basic plot structure, but the details may vary as time passes and the writers decide to include them, specially in aspects that were kinda blurry to begin with. Fen'Harel was the absolute worse according to Dalish elven lore, yet in DA:I that lore we had seen in the previous two games proved to be very much inaccurate. Quoting Sten's words as Qun canon is not something i'd do considering the Qun is to this day still not as defined as say, the Chantry. DA:I actually takes down a few canon elements from the previous games: the Dalish got several things wrong, the Golden City was actually Black, the Rite of Tranquility can be reversed. I'd say in DAO the Qunari were still a work in progress, and we'll get to see actual Qun canon in the future, but they've already begun to define it better and it's not all Sten had to say of it. One could also argue that according to the Qun, if you are good for a specific task then that's what you'll do for life, so regardless of how the Qunari identifies as in terms of gender, if they're good warriors the Qun wouldn't waste them as a Tamassran or a simple baker, the Qun wastes nothing; what they identify as is not important, the important thing that takes priority for the Qun is what that individual can add to the Qun, and if that transgender is good warrior material the Qun will use that warrior material. 

 

I must say i do agree with Weekes when he says "play something else". If the game is not all to your liking, go play something else. If you guys want more "roleplayability" and have your character speak its mind then get a DM and roll some dice. If you want to let your inner racist or misogynist out, go play GTA. There are already games out there that cater to what you want. DA games focus on other things, not on giving you full roleplayability, actually no RPG ever grants you that, there are always many things you can't decide on. Can DA games get better and offer more choices? Of course and i sure hope they do, but the options proposed in this topic by some are not precisely what could make DA better.

[Cyberstrike nTo]

It is restricting your ability to be a dick, sure. I happen to think the option is worthless, and replacing it basically everything else is valuable, but that's a fair point. This is because the option to be a dick is a consequence-free moment where the player can just get off on trolling (whomever) doesn't add anything to the game. It's a bit like some of the renegade options in ME - they out Shepard as a complete and utter loon who not only should be discharged immediately from the army, but probably should receive immediate psychiatric care. 

 

Also there are technical issues. The words spoken and the various subtitles in different langugues in a game take up a LOT space and having multiple choices such as race. IMHO adding elf, dwarf, and qunari limited a lot of choices because of how characters would react to a knife-ear, ox-(wo)man, or a dwarf meant having to write, record, program, animate, and etc costs a LOT of money. Also there at some point you have to kick the player out the door and move the story on. While I do understand the RP value of the whole "I don't want to be the Hearld because I'm an elf/dwarf/qunari/non-believer" it does becomes an annoying pain in the ass to the writers because they need to move the story on and not having characters argue over a title and/or name of the PC. 

 

I don't think that adding multiple races were meant to lessen the RP aspect of the game but in hindsight some players should have expected a bit of a trade-off.  

[Panda]

Elves, qunari, dog lords, mages etc. wont sue BioWare...

 

Fantasy game has fantasy things, what a surprise! 

 

There is division as i said by very nature and this is noticed and sometimes even as i said undesired in Thedas.Again what you are talking about is social acceptance of homosexuailty even if it is accepted by society there is still distiction ,and there are people who dislike blond hair and perhaps even people that hate people that are blond , i have meet person that couldn't stand me on basic that person didn't like clothes i was usually wearing.  

 

So are people who can roll their tongue or are left-handed. Sexuality is not sth that need to divide people in groups.

 

Well I guess you can dislike people based on blond hair or clothes they wear, but.. it's kinda silly? Even more to insult them or start systematic oppression towards people like that. 

[uzivatel]

Fantasy game has fantasy things, what a surprise! 

I know, right? Racism and discrimination are totally cool ... as long as its fantasy races / traits or fictive nations.

[maia0407]

 Let's face it, roleplayability is not the real reason behind this, it's just being presented as an excuse.

It's a very transparent excuse at that. These people want to punch down at the people that are already being kicked in real life.

[TheKomandorShepard]

Chop

 

Was somone actually asking for it or you are exaggerating by far because from what i saw people were asking for ability to declare differing opinion on certain topic if it is brought up not start crusade against black people ,gays or whatever group we are talking about?

 

I wouldn't mind options to raid village , kill or rape but probably last one would have caused massive s*** storm that i even don't blame bioware for not putting such option.

 

And again we are talking about dialogue option that shows not very positive option about certain group of people when topic is brought up not about starting crusade.

 

You rly don't know what you are talking about as by your logic everyone who plays GTA is a mass murderer.

 

Fantasy game has fantasy things, what a surprise! 

 

 

So are people who can roll their tongue or are left-handed. Sexuality is not sth that need to divide people in groups.

 

Well I guess you can dislike people based on blond hair or clothes they wear, but.. it's kinda silly? Even more to insult them or start systematic oppression towards people like that. 

It does as i said by nature they are divided into both different group even if accepted ,you arleady distincted for an example left-handed from right-handed people.

 

Well kinda same can be said about racism as it is pretty much disliking somone for color of their skin.

[Panda]

I know, right? Racism and discrimination are totally cool ... as long as its fantasy races / traits or fictive nations.

 

Surely it's nicer to play game that way. I'm not really fan of games that have discrimination in terms of real life groups without calling it out.

[SharpWalkers]

*snip*

Gee, can't help but feel attacked.  Quite a leap, though, going from optionally being mean to all characters, rather than excempting a group (in this example) because it might be a senstive issue, to raping and pillaging and slaving. Ignoring, of course, for a moment that you could let elves be sold into slavery in DA:O, and that you could slaughter the entire Dalish encampment or slaughter all the werewolves. 

 

roleplayability is not the real reason behind this, it's just being presented as an excuse.

Except it is - in my case, at least. 

[maia0407]

Was somone actually asking for it or you are exaggerating by far because from what i saw people were asking for ability to declare differing opinion on certain topic if it is brought up not start crusade against black people ,gays or whatever group we are talking about?

 

I wouldn't mind options to raid village , kill or rape but probably last one would have caused massive s*** storm that i even don't blame bioware for not putting such option.

 

And again we are talking about dialogue option that shows not very positive option about certain group of people when topic is brought up not about starting crusade.

 

You rly don't know what you are talking about as by your logic everyone who plays GTA is a mass murderer.

 

It does as i said by nature they are divided into both different group even if accepted ,you arleady distincted for an example left-handed from right-handed people.

 

Well kinda same can be said about racism as it is pretty much disliking somone for color of their skin.

You actually want the option to rape people in a video game?

[MaaEnyo]

If only they had that attitude with DA2.

I don't know what you're talking about there, i got into DA with Inquisition and i've only played that and Origins, haven't had the chance to play DA2 yet ( i'm aware of the basics of the game, not of what went on when it came out). Regardless, whatever attitude they had then is apparently no longer standing.