318 réponses à ce sujet

[TheKomandorShepard]

You actually want the option to rape people in a video game?

Sure why not after all it is fictional character in fictional world ,so for me it will be just an extra possibility to create certain type of character.

[maia0407]

Good to know that about you. Now, I'll just back away veeeeery slowly. No sudden moves. No eye contact.

[uzivatel]

It's a very transparent excuse at that.

Care to tell what is the actual reason?

These people want to punch down at the people that are already being kicked in real life.

Which in no way constitutes as roleplaying.
Basically you are assuming all transgender people are victims who need special protection.

[TheKomandorShepard]

Good to know that about you. Now, I'll just back away veeeeery slowly. No sudden moves. No eye contact.

LoL you are dramatizing ,that im sold child soul for sex in video game doesn't mean i did it in real life ...

[maia0407]

Care to tell what is the actual reason?

Which in no way constitutes as roleplaying.
Basically you are assuming all transgender people are victims who need special protection.

In the majority of cases, people are transphobic and want to express that in the game.

 

And, yes, sometimes certain classes do need special protections as the majority can be assholes to minorities. US law recognizes that fact in employment and hate crime legislation. I'm glad BW seems to recognize a similar principle in how they design their games.

[TheKomandorShepard]

In the majority of cases, people are transphobic and want to express that in the game.

 

And, yes, sometimes certain classes do need special protections as the majority can be assholes to minorities. US law recognizes that fact in employment and hate crime legislation. I'm glad BW seems to recognize a similar principle in how they design their games.

Yes by that time im mass murderer because i have finished every dragon age game.  

 

Yes lets forbid killing in video games because it is murder , yeah i can already see police locking people up because they have killed merchant in dao.

[Panda]

It does as i said by nature they are divided into both different group even if accepted ,you arleady distincted for an example left-handed from right-handed people.

 

Well kinda same can be said about racism as it is pretty much disliking somone for color of their skin.

 

You can divide people in the groups any way possible, since there will be always some differences. But only some differences become sth that people are oppressed over.

 

Yeah, reason to hate and oppress some group are usually quite silly.

[TheKomandorShepard]

You can divide people in the groups any way possible, since there will be always some differences. But only some differences become sth that people are oppressed over.

 

Yeah, reason to hate and oppress some group are usually quite silly.

Who is talking about oppression?Oppression toward group is when it isn't accepted by society and is punished by society for an example being gay.

 

For an example gays aren't oppressed in USA but still there are individuals that dislike them.

[uzivatel]

After portraying transgender characters as prostitutes, BioWare listened, corrected themselves and gave us Krem.

Sure, because there are no transgender prostitutes IRL. And if there were any, they definitely would not be among the most publically visible groups of transgender people, since unlike most others they are not actually making money thanks to their transgender status. No way. Good thing BioWare "corrected themselves".
Krem is major NPC and cool person. Not just your run of the mill cool - Bull has lost his eye because of him and in case that would not be cool enough, Krem has the voice of female Shepard - you cant really go much cooler than that. Now Krem isnt just cool character, who happens to be a transgender. No, that just would not do. Krem needs to be a cool transgender character, which means they just had to tell his childhood story and it had to be tragic. I am surprised the writers (Weekes?) did not put a flashing sign reading "cool transgender character" next to him.

There may be bit of sarcasm in this post, but Krem is cool and the voice of Jennifer Hale is awesome.

[Panda]

Who is talking about oppression?Oppression toward group is when it isn't accepted by society and is punished by society for an example being gay.

 

For an example gays aren't oppressed in USA but still there are individuals that dislike them.

 

I was, since I believe it's related. I disagree, but we can go with individual hate as well.

[TheKomandorShepard]

I was, since I believe it's related. I disagree, but we can go with individual hate as well.

Well it quite isn't ,i already proved that acceptance (thus lack of oppression) of certain group by society doesn't mean that people can't and won't dislike people that belong to that group.

 

   

[Cyberstrike nTo]

Who is talking about oppression?Oppression toward group is when it isn't accepted by society and is punished by society for an example being gay.

 

For an example gays aren't oppressed in USA but still there are individuals that dislike them.

 

 

There are still many (I've heard up the number is high as to 26 states) in the USA where you can be fired for just being openly gay. These laws are still technically legal and haven't been changed. Hell in my state of Indiana passed a law where any business can deny LGBT (and quite possibly anybody else) service for so-called "sincereally held religious" beliefs and despite what our boneheaded Governor Pence and the local GOP have said they still haven't changed or repeal the damn law and never will. While I'm not gay but I can't blame people for boycotting my state and/or taking their business elsewhere. 

 

In other countries being openly gay or just someone thought to be gay is an automatic death sentence. 

[TheKomandorShepard]

There are still many (I've heard up the number is high as to 26 states) in the USA where you can be fired for just being openly gay. These laws are still technically legal and haven't been changed. Hell in my state of Indiana passed a law where any business can deny LGBT (and quite possibly anybody else) service for so-called "sincereally held religious" beliefs and despite what our boneheaded Governor Pence and the local GOP have said they still haven't changed or repeal the damn law and never will. While I'm not gay but I can't blame people for boycotting my state and/or taking their business elsewhere. 

 

In other countries being openly gay or just someone thought to be gay is an automatic death sentence. 

 

Well certainly there are still countries where gays are less tolerated or even not, but there are many where they are and homophobia is present.

[TheBlackAdder13]

I liked how Weakes handled your options when discussing Krem with the Iron Bull. I like to consider myself a trans ally but I was RPing an obstinate Qunari so I kept picking the options implying that Krem couldn't possibly be a man. It wasn't overtly transphobic, but rather it allowed you to RP a semi-transphobic character and get schooled by Iron Bull's responses. I think this was a healthy way to approach the issue. It was framed as simply not understanding what being transgender entails (and most people don't imo) and provided some insights within the context of the Qun that were still applicable to the real world.

[Heimdall]

I had no problem with Krem, though I thought he was dull.

 

What irked me was Weekes enthusiasm for writing more transgender characters.  I want his enthusiasm to be directed towards creating interesting characters, whether they be transgender or not.  If this means more bland buddy characters like Krem, I'll be disappointed.

[Dieb]

I had no problem with Krem, though I thought he was dull.

 

What irked me was Weekes enthusiasm for writing more transgender characters.  I want his enthusiasm to be directed towards creating interesting characters, whether they be transgender or not.  If this means more bland buddy characters like Krem, I'll be disappointed.

 

Yes, but what irks me, is that many people in here seem to think the guy who gets paid to do just this all day professionally, for his career & reputation, cannot fathom the same ideas.

[Heimdall]

Yes, but what irks me, is that many people in here seem to think the guy who gets paid to do just this all day professionally, for his career & reputation, cannot fathom the same ideas.

I'm not sure what ideas you mean

[Dieb]

I'm not sure what ideas you mean

 

I was adressing neither you nor your statement specifically, but when it comes to Weekes' desire to create more LBGT-inclusive characters, it's always an odd custom to send a "but don't write crappy, one-dimensional boring characters!" warning along with it. The guy's a professional writer. If his characters end up one-dimensional and boring, it's not because he wasn't consciously aware that this would be a no-no.

 

Just felt this is the right moment to mention that along with your post.

[Heimdall]

I was adressing neither you nor your statement specifically, but when it comes to Weekes' desire to create more LBGT-inclusive characters, it's always an odd custom to send a "but don't write crappy, one-dimensional boring characters!" warning along with it. The guy's a professional writer. If his characters end up one-dimensional and boring, it's not because he wasn't consciously aware that this would be a no-no.

 

Just felt this is the right moment to mention that along with your post.

Gotcha

 

I certainly hope he knows, but he did write Krem, which has me concerned.

[uzivatel]

I was adressing neither you nor your statement specifically, but when it comes to Weekes' desire to create more LBGT-inclusive characters, it's always an odd custom to send a "but don't write crappy, one-dimensional boring characters!" warning along with it. The guy's a professional writer. If his characters end up one-dimensional and boring, it's not because he wasn't consciously aware that this would be a no-no.

Just felt this is the right moment to mention that along with your post.

Since some of his past stuff is popular among fans and since he was somewhat vocal about LGBT content, many simply assumed his priorities lied elsewhere, when creating some content, which was not deemed that good and which happened to be LGBT related.

Weekes not being as good as fan think him to be is obviously possible, although that should IMO raise even more alarms.

[MrMrPendragon]

I don't understand, do the writers have the whole storyline planned already? I don't know how they do these things but it just seems weird to me that a writer, who had a hand in writing both storylines and characters, would go while the series is ongoing.

 

If they don't have the whole series planned already (I hope that isn't the case because I hate it when writers just improvise or wing it), then it just feels off that the lead writer at the start won't have any say in what happens in the future games.

 

Anyway, I'm hoping for great storylines for the future games, not just great characters.

 

Concering this transgender issue everybody's been raging about, I don't really care as long as they're great characters. Although it just feels off to me how..... convenient it is that a Dragon Age protagonist always meets or collaborates with someone that's not straight.

[MrMrPendragon]

Yes, we'd all prefer if DA would become a social justice and liberal utopia.

 

It doesn't have to be, but that doesn't mean the protagonist themselves should get to fire out racists and homophobic statements. It should be enough to establish that these things exist in this world. Instead of making codexes about how sexuality in Thedas is no big deal (yeah ok...), they should establish that the Dragon Age universe isn't perfect, at least, when it comes to social issues. And I'm not just talking about racism against elves.

[Matriarch]

It doesn't have to be, but that doesn't mean the protagonist themselves should get to fire out racists and homophobic statements. It should be enough to establish that these things exist in this world. Instead of making codexes about how sexuality in Thedas is no big deal (yeah ok...), they should establish that the Dragon Age universe isn't perfect, at least, when it comes to social issues. And I'm not just talking about racism against elves.

 

Dutch's Ghost was being ironic, I think 

[Dai Grepher]

Do you also disapprove of the fact that we're not allowed to say that we don't want Vivienne on the party because she's black ?Or that we're not allowed to fire Josephine for being female?

 

Or do you think giving people options to be racist towards Vivienne would have been bad? If so, why does that not limit player choice while not allowing people to make fun of transgender people does?

 

No, because that's never part of the storyline. Krem's transgender issue is. If Vivienne had given us a story about how the Orlesian nobility gave her a hard time because of her skin color, then I would want the same variety of dialogue options for that too. But it has been made quite clear since Dragon Age Origins that skin color prejudice does not exist in Thedas. So of course this situation would never come up. Gender issues DO exist in Thedas however, and so I would expect player choice in defining my characters' options on these issues.

 

I don't think it would have been bad except that it would contradict the lore. Perhaps if a new culture is introduced into the series that does not have Thedas' views of color, then I would have no problem with racism being introduced. I read somewhere that there is an island across the sea to the east with xenophobic people living on it. So if they are all the same skin color, and they are xenophobic, then it would make sense for them to be racist as well. I don't think there's anything wrong or immoral in presenting this issue as a storyline concept. Heck, they can even be racist against my skin color, and I would not feel offended by it.

 

Should I be allowed to - should there be the option to - be a massive dickhead to trans-people and other minorities (or anyone for that matter)? Yes, I should. If I'm roleplaying a f*k*ng intense arse, that is a horrible person to everyone anyway, who would not think twice about killing a child (*ahem* Hi, Connor.), and would slaughter everything in it's way, why the hell should there be a line drawn before that character being a dick to (in this case) transgenders?

 

Exactly. They claim they want equality, except when it comes to disagreement or criticism.

 

Transphobia itself doesn't seem to exist like it does IRL in Thedas, since homophobia doesn't exist either similarly.

 

But even DA:I shows that certain countries consider homosexuality strange and don't allow it in public. There are also gender issues, where clear gender roles exist. There is no discrimination regarding military service, but there are other areas of public and private life that do. The Chantry is an obvious example. Also, wives are expected to have children as a duty, though this is mostly something that is focused on nobility. And Krem's story also shows that there have been people in the recent past who have had a problem with Krem's gender identity. Bull's defensiveness is also a clue to this. I haven't read the comics, but I think there was an example with Maevaris as well.

 

But why is Krem being singled out specifically to tell to **** off? Why isn't anyone arguing to be able to abuse Sutherland or Harding? Rhetorical questions, as I know the answers. People don't like him because he's transgender and some players would like to abuse him for that. Transgender people get abused enough in real life. I'm happy I don't have to even look at the disgusting option in game.

 

ETA: I know some will argue that the option to abuse Krem won't affect me or anyone else. Sure, it won't affect my game other than I'll have to see that option. But, it normalizes that reaction for people and I don't want to see the self-congratulatory threads here where the bigots go to gloat over how they hurt Krem.

 

Is Krem being singled out? I think Krem is just an example, while the main focus is what Weekes plans to do in the next game.

 

Well first off, you can tell Sutherland to **** off. Second, Harding isn't presenting as something that others would question. She presents as a dwarven female who grew up in Redcliffe and is good at scouting. That's exactly true. Now, if she had done something to cause anyone to doubt her story, like if she had intimate knowledge or Orzammar, then one might question her origin story. With Krem however, there is an issue presented to us, an issue that different people will have different opinions on. So all we're saying is players should have the option to express a reasonable variety of opinions on that issue, such as, support, intrigue, indifference, and disagreement.

 

I'm not saying that allowing bigotry turns people into bigots. I'm saying that it normalizes bigoted reactions for people that are already bigots.

 

Well, that's your opinion, but even if that were true, so what? If that person is a bigot, then I would think a video game would be the least of that person's problems. And is denying the bigot that option going to help? If anything the bigot will get mad that the option isn't there and the idea of BioWare forcing "tolerance" on the audience will only reinforce that person's bigotry. You don't fight bigoted ideas with force. You have to give people the freedom to willingly change.

 

So SJWs are forcing BioWare writers to take away your right to be a douchebag in their games? Bull shite.

 

I don't force David Gaider, Patrick Weeks, or any other creator in any media to make a game "my way" or any way. It's the creators' choice. Not mine, Not SJWs. 

 

But when Gaider wrote Maevaris, he got some bad feedback from a transgender, and Gaider apologized profusely even though he went into it trying his best to create a good transgender character. BioWare also, after making "female" city elf in Origins and Serendipity in DA2 they got bad feedback from transgenders and their response was one of apology and placation. I remember an article about how transgenders or homosexuals demanded something and BioWare posted a public response saying, "And ya know what, you're right!". And they went on to say they would honor the demand. Yet when a player emailed Gaider about how he didn't like that the romances in DA2 were bisexual, or something like that, Gaider pompously posted a public response excoriating that fan, even though that fan had not written that non-heterosexual character should be kept out of the game. As I recall, he only wanted at least one or two straight romances along side anything else BioWare wanted to include.

 

From what i've been reading here, i'm surprised people is more concerned about getting the option to insult or punch a transgender character, or tell Vivienne she's too black to sit with the cool kids, and no one has yet suggested they get the option to idk, raid a small village and rape everyone there, or the option to take your own slave. Y'know, for roleplayability's sake.

 

...

 

Let's face it, roleplayability is not the real reason behind this, it's just being presented as an excuse.

 

...

 

After portraying transgender characters as prostitutes, BioWare listened, corrected themselves and gave us Krem. You would too have asked they changed things if, being a white male, you saw the game portray white males as prostitutes only. I don't see it as much as a SJW thing as it is really just BioWare trying to include a wider demographic. It may be the DA staff being nice and PC, sure, but it's also business. Does this affect the game in a negative way? Not yet, IMO. It will if they make more changes just to please everyone while sacrificing plot and character development and the overall quality of the game in the process. Not giving you the option to reproduce IRL crap does none of such things. 

 

As RPG as DA games may be, there are clear limitations to the roleplay the game allows, and those limitations are defined by the writers who chose to make DA about other things.

 

...

 

Quoting Sten's words as Qun canon is not something i'd do considering the Qun is to this day still not as defined as say, the Chantry. DA:I actually takes down a few canon elements from the previous games: the Dalish got several things wrong, the Golden City was actually Black, the Rite of Tranquility can be reversed. I'd say in DAO the Qunari were still a work in progress, and we'll get to see actual Qun canon in the future, but they've already begun to define it better and it's not all Sten had to say of it.

 

...

 

I must say i do agree with Weekes when he says "play something else". If the game is not all to your liking, go play something else.

 

Well maybe no one has suggested those things because no one has suggested punching a transgender character or insulting Vivienne based on her skin color either. You're just posting a strawman argument. Our actual argument has always been that if a storyline is presented to us, then give us player choice in responding to that storyline. We aren't demanding new storylines, and we aren't demanding actions. We are demanding the same thing we get from every other dialogue option, which is the freedom to take either side.

 

Yes of course, because you have special insight into people's souls that lets you know that deep down, they're all just a bunch of transpohobic bigots. Well I'm happy to tell you that I too possess the same insight you have, and it tells me that deep down you are transphobic because you believe transgender people are so fragile that seeing a dialogue option in a video game that disagrees with their gender identity will cause them to crumble into an emotional mess. That's why you want to shield them from any form of disagreement because you think they're too weak to deal with the concept of different people having different opinions. You horrible intolerant person you. Now, do you see how annoying and unproductive that line of argument is? Stop assuming the motives and desires of others. If we tell you that we want a simple option to disagree for roleplay and character customization purposes, then you should have the common courtesy to take us at our word. Stop assuming the worst in people and just debate on the merits of the issue.

 

No, we wouldn't have. We wouldn't have even noticed it. And those who did and had a problem with it would have simply stopped playing Dragon Age. You admit that transgenders complained and BioWare listened, yet that's not an example of SJWs forcing a company to comply? Expanding a demographic isn't the same thing as limiting dialogue options, which is what Weekes wants to do. Include the transgender character sure, but don't force people to promote it via their custom characters. And so what if this hasn't hurt the game YET? The point is to not let it harm the game at all. Why wait until after it's too late? That makes no sense. Not allowing players to choose their response absolutely lowers the quality of the game, and it's forcing a worldview on people that they may or may not agree with, but it's annoying to have no choice but be lectured to.

 

Limitations are defined by time, resources, and technology. There are no limitations on a simple dialogue response other than the political correctness of the lead writer. And we're saying that there doesn't need to be such a PC restriction and there shouldn't be. Give players the choice.

 

The Qun might not be defined in full, but it is on this issue. Women cannot be men. Period. As for the Chantry, nothing has been contradicted thus far.

 

You agree with Weekes because it's a position you like. If Weekes had said he would feature a storyline in which your custom character was raised to disparage transgender and homosexual people and that you would not have the dialogue option to support them, and if you didn't like that then play something else, you'd be irate.

 

You actually want the option to rape people in a video game?

 

If the storyline were to come up somehow, absolutely! Because that also means the option NOT to rape. Also, Weekes and Gaider confirmed that DA:I had a rape storyline planned for it. But it was scrapped because they felt it would distract from the main plot too much.
 

I was adressing neither you nor your statement specifically, but when it comes to Weekes' desire to create more LBGT-inclusive characters, it's always an odd custom to send a "but don't write crappy, one-dimensional boring characters!" warning along with it. The guy's a professional writer. If his characters end up one-dimensional and boring, it's not because he wasn't consciously aware that this would be a no-no.

 

And yet the first one to raise this concern is Weekes himself. He outright says that he makes sure the character will be interesting and not just there to be transgender. We raise this concern because Weekes has stated that he will not allow a dialogue option to disagree with the transgender character in-game. So to us it seems like he's well on his way to making a bland gaming experience here.

 

And lets also not forget that Weekes admits to not knowing much about LGBT issues. He had to seek outside consultation for Krem, and he'll obviously do so again for the next game. Which means, it isn't Weekes who will be fully writing these characters. It will be LGBT people who might not even be writers themselves. In which case the characters might absolutely be boring and bland.