66 réponses à ce sujet

[ollyollyoxenfree]

Solas and Varric talk about it a bit in their party banter. It's mostly about life going on for surface dwarves but there are bits about Orzammar too.

 

Solas: I find the fall of the dwarven lands confusing.

Varric: What's so confusing about endless darkspawn?

Solas: A great deal, although that is a different matter. Dwarves control the flow of lyrium. They could tighten their grip on it.

Varric: It's hard to get the attention of the humans when the darkspawn aren't up here messing with their stuff.

Solas: You're active in the Carta. You know your people could tug the purse strings. You could claim sovereign land on the surface, or demand help restoring the dwarven kingdom, but you don't.

Varric: You're not saying anything I haven't said myself, Chuckles. Orzammar is what it is.

[The Baconer]

Pretty much, yeah.

[Aren]

At least they worship real people, and not imaginary ones

Are you referring to the elves? Because as it is now ,it would be better for them that their gods remain up to their headcanon,to avoid the disappointment.

[Aren]

Traditions,Traditions,Traditions......

Dwarf this,Elves that,nobles this (Eamon),Qunari that

I'm so damn bored with all these traditions

[The Baconer]

Are you referring to the elves?

 

hurr

[zambingo]

I think Lyrium dulls Underground Dwarves minds. Underground Dwarves who are exceptional minds like Dagna, Branka and Caridin et al I think might be even more amazing removed from constant Lyrium exposure (Sandal omg, the dude could be Stephen Hawking). I think the same for any Lyrium using species, sure Lyrium is providing something but I think it's dulling otherthings. And yeah, maybe this means Cullen will be quicker witted off the juice. ;-)

Anyway this dulling of the mind is why I think the Underground Dwarves are slaves to tradition unless an outside force (a Paragon worthy mind or an authoritive outsider like a Warden) shows them a different possibility.

[thats1evildude]

At least they worship real people, and not imaginary ones

You, uh ... you sure the Maker is imaginary? Because a few years ago, you could have said the same thing about the elven or Avvar gods.

[ComedicSociopathy]

You, uh ... you sure the Maker is imaginary? Because a few years ago, you could have said the same thing about the elven or Avvar gods.

 

Unlike the Maker though, the elven and Avvar gods actually have a chance of showing up and doing something in the narrative of Dragon Age. The Maker on the other hand is never going to show up. 

 

Ever. 

 

It is known. 

[Cz-99]

Sounds like someone rolled a filthy pleb.

 

I never had these issues on my dwarf noble.

[teh DRUMPf!!]

 It's like their society lives under a rock or something!!

 

 

 

... oh, wait...   

[teh DRUMPf!!]

At least they worship real people, and not imaginary ones

 

Is that supposed to be better??

[andy6915]

The Maker's presence is known everywhere. He's doing exactly what the lore says he did. Which is, not giving a crap about anything and taking off.

 

The elven gods in Dalish lore were presented something they were not. But the Maker, he's keeping it real.

 

I still say the Maker is a Greater Pride Demon. The codex says those things are so powerful that just 1 stepping through the veil would be a life threatening event greater than any before. I actually thought the Elder One would be a Greater Pride Demon, everything fit for a long time. But think about it, what's more prideful than a spirit thinking it created everything and is the ultimate god above all others? What could make a spirit become prideful more than having the worship of almost all of Thedas? Why else would it demand worship if not to support its pride and vanity? The Maker being a Greater Pride Demon would explain much, and I hope that happens in a future game. Think of how upside down on its head Thedas would become in such a game?

[andy6915]

I can't say I agree. It's like me saying I actually worship a demon myself, for being a Christian.     I'd rather be called an idiot.

 

Real life aside...

 

The Maker doesn't demand worship anyways. He got bored of the singlemindedness of spirits. It's why he made men.....according to the Chant of Light, I mean. He wanted them to be "creative".

 

Uh... Despite being the fictional analog, Andrasteism isn't Christianity (also, I'm pretty sure that's not how you spell Andraste-ism). Nothing done with the Chantry beliefs should hurt your real beliefs unless your so weak in your real beliefs that everything that might make you slightly question anything makes you uncomfortable.

 

Also, I might as well quote myself from 2 years ago when I made my post about the Maker possibly being a Greater Pride Demon, I made a better case in that post.

 

They are pretty much godlike in their power, enough to convince a world that they are a Maker of the world. And it would take a ton of pride and arrogance to consider yourself the most esteemed and powerful being in the universe to the point of demanding worship. And remember what Corypheus said about the golden city already being black and tainted before they even arrived. If a Greater Pride Demon is in fact the ruler of that city, it being black and corrupted would make sense, a place made and ruled by one would not be a golden place of beauty. And we know there's a connection between Darkspawn taint and demons, remember the weird wall flesh stuff in the Circle Tower is exactly like the wall flesh that grows in Darkspace infested placed like the Deep Roads. So if there is a connection, then the corruption and darkness that would come from a Greater Pride Demon could very well be what tainted the Magisters.

[MrMrPendragon]

Are you referring to the elves? Because as it is now ,it would be better for them that their gods remain up to their headcanon,to avoid the disappointment.

 

Are you referring to the elves?

[leaguer of one]

I hereby challenge you, Will, to.... a toddlers and tiaras GIF war!

 

Do you accept this challenge?

 

 

Stop it! It should be a crime to make them twerk at that age.

[leaguer of one]

 Maybe they ignored the proving win because it was won through deceit and deception. I could see some dwarven logic saying that it somehow muddied the integrity of the fight.

That lead to wanting to jail and kill the winner? The noble they covered should be out but the actually person who fight and won did via legit ways.

[Eddard]

Spoiler

Played the casteless origin in DAO again. And now, I've realized a few things. I'll just kinda ramble, I can't think of how to say this all perfectly. I'll also be saying this like my dwarven noble Warden who's ludicrously progressive and thinks about as much about Orzammar society as Dorian does Tevinter society. I played both origins despite the dwarven noble being the canon one, I like seeing both dwarven origins if I'm going to play as a dwarf.

Dwarven religion says that the Proving is important because it's what the ancestors use to show their favor. If you win, the ancestors favored you. If you lose, the ancestors didn't. Therefor, you absolutely must have their favor to win. Okay, next part. Casteless can't fight in the proving because the ancestors hate them and won't favor them in the least, EVER. So what happens? A casteless wins 3 rounds. Wait, what? So let me get that straight. Ancestors determine who win a round in the proving, and casteless can't fight in them because the ancestors hate casteless, and yet here's a casteless winning. Did dwarves acknowledge that contradiction? No, they were too busy getting p!ssed off and slapping the casteless in chains rather than taking a sodding second to think about that contradiction or the implications of that contradiction. They just use double think to avoid thinking of the implications, and they don't even realize they're doing it. Not me. For me, it makes me realize there's 2 possibilities. Either the ancestors don't exist because they would not let a casteless get even close to winning, or the ancestors don't hate casteless and dislike how we treat them and used that casteless to try to show our ignorant and moronic people that they can favor a casteless after all. One or the other. They aren't real, or casteless are not nothing to the ancestors and the way we treat them is wrong. Either way we're using our religion to justify the way we treat casteless, even when you have to double think and break logic to do so. Makes me think that the real reason we don't let them fight in provings is that we're afraid that we might have to confront our stupidity after enough casteless win enough that we start to doubt and question what we've been made to think, we don't want to think that maybe we're wrong about this and have been for ages. Or maybe the ancestors fell for the disguise too, they're so stupid that a helmet is enough for our ancestors to grant you favor because they're just as fooled as living dwarves. Do dwarves really want that to be an implication either? I doubt it.

Oh, and here's another example of double think and confirmation bias. We tell casteless "you're not allowed to take any legitimate or legal jobs", leaving only illegitimate and illegal jobs as their only option for survival. We tell them they can't have legal jobs, and then when they do illegal jobs we tell them that this is why they can't be trusted with legal jobs because they proved that they really are criminals... What kind of screwed up logic lets you even do that?

"You can't do anything legal to support yourself because you're a dirty criminal casteless who only breaks the law."

*casteless does illegal work to be able to eat that day*

"You see, you really were just a dirty casteless criminal and all you did was vindicate us and prove us right. We can't give you real jobs because you're just criminals."

It's circular logic to the extreme. We make them do illegal work by making legal work illegal for them to do, and then use that as proof to say that casteless aren't worthy of real work because they always just break the law. What kind of jumped up nonsensical crap is this? We... Just... Gah! We dwarves must be dumbest sodding people in Thedas to make these logical fallacies and not even see the problem with it. It's not even just that we're bigoted, we're bigoted seemingly on purpose to the point of forcing the very situations that prove "us" right that casteless are worthless.

Spoiler

Say what you will about other societies, but no other society I know is this bloody stupid about a particular class. Tevinter's think of and treat slaves better than we do our casteless, at least they don't use ignorant double think and confirmation bias to convince themselves of it. The Assembly is very lucky my brother did what he did, because if they had made the mistake of making me king...? If they think my brother being on the throne makes him an extremist tyrant, they would have lost their minds if they supported me. I would have abolished casteless as a caste completely, removed it as a thing from the legal process altogether. You want to punish a dwarf, exile them to the surface and forbid them from returning (you don't need a casteless caste to do that). And if that exiled one has a child then that child can return, sins of the parent is a system that should NEVER be done. Hell, I might have even just got rid of the castes entirely. I put my betrayer of a brother on the throne because he's at least kinda on the same mindset as me about this, just not quite as "extreme" about it. Our people need to wake the hell up and stop being so willfully stupid, because our culture as it is right now and has been for ages is quite embarrassing. I don't have to be casteless to realize this stuff, I merely have to be "not-stupid"... Which is apparently something that 95% of the rest of the city can't bring themselves to be.

Wonder if Kal-Sharok managed to avoid shoving their heads up their own asses, unlike my city?

I have add spoiler tags to the quote to cut the length a bit.

Regarding the casteless, these Dwarves live outside of society and are not part of it. They or their ancestors were rejected from the stone, but refused to leave. They are ment to die and are also ment not to breed.

They are also allowed legel jobs, just not any job that a Dwarf would do, so no mining, smiting, fighting or political jobs, but sweeping out poisoned vents is OK though. They can also be merchants if they have something the "real" Dwarves want. I remember one casteless merchant saying he was glad he could wash off the brand when he returned to the surface.

In my opinion they are not overly stupid, just don't like outsiders. Humans, elfs and surfacers generally have things they want and are tolerated where the casteless are useless and a constant pain. If you like they are the neighbours that throw their rubbish on the front lawn, that I stole their bin is not worthy of note.

I am aware that I am now rambling so will end on this. With the Dwarves you are either in or out, casteless are out, and even a child of the old king and sibling to the current king needs months of debate to get back in. And that is with singlehandedly stopping a blight.

[thats1evildude]

I still say the Maker is a Greater Pride Demon. The codex says those things are so powerful that just 1 stepping through the veil would be a life threatening event greater than any before. I actually thought the Elder One would be a Greater Pride Demon, everything fit for a long time. But think about it, what's more prideful than a spirit thinking it created everything and is the ultimate god above all others? What could make a spirit become prideful more than having the worship of almost all of Thedas? Why else would it demand worship if not to support its pride and vanity? The Maker being a Greater Pride Demon would explain much, and I hope that happens in a future game. Think of how upside down on its head Thedas would become in such a game?

 

We saw one. The Baroness was such a pride demon, and she could have massive devastation if she had not been stopped.

 

I dunno, the Maker just being another another demon seems so ... plebian.

[andy6915]

We saw one. The Baroness was such a pride demon, and she could have massive devastation if she had not been stopped.

I dunno, the Maker just being another another demon seems so ... plebian.

No, she was just a regular pride demon. A GREATER pride demon would rival or surpass a blight or even the Breach in terms of danger.

[The Lone Shadow]

Really, the most pragmatic and sensible society in Thedas is the Qunari. To them, race, nationality, and class background does not matter, they will take you in and put you to work in a field where they deem you capable of fulfilling based on your talents and skills. They even put prisoners to work. In their society everyone has a role and are seen as valuable to the function of society.  Its like a well oiled machine. Racism, bigotry, and elitism do not help the machine run better, so they are discarded. Which is why my castless dwarf is such a huge qunari fan so much so that she wants to join the qun. The only kinds of people they have a problem with in their society are mages, but there is a more logical reason for it and that is that mages can become hosts to demons.

 

I'm not saying that the Qunari are the best society, the whole mind controlling drug and the use a psychological torture to make rebels  submissive is greatly disturbing. But out of all the races they are the most pragmatic, brutally so.

 

If the dwarves were more pragmatic, I would suggest forcing the castless into cannon fodder against the darkspawn. There are more people of the warrior cast being lost to the darkspawn every year and they already let the castless into the Legion of the Dead. So why not just arm them and throw them at the darkspawn? They hate the castless so much and think that they shouldn't exist so why not round them up and throw them at their most hated enemy? They could be used as a distraction for the darkspawn, while the warriors come up behind them. In that instance, the castless don't even need to know how to fight. In fact, they could even use children for that. Its brutal, its horrific, but it would be much more pragmatic.

 

But, you know its weird to me that, even though they arrest the castless warden at the proving, they make the Castless warden a paragon.

 

I think a part of their bigotry is that they need someone to look down upon to boost their own egos. The humans do it to the elves, the dalish do it to the city elves, and the city elves do it to the dalish. Its stupid but a lot of people are morons so what can you do?

 

Also, I like the idea of Maker being a pride demon. It would be great to see Sera's reaction to it, with all her "Dalish religion is just a bunch of demon worshiping."

[The Lone Shadow]

Considering all the horrible things the Chantry has done, I don't think they've got enough punishment. Besides, they are still around and still in power.