32 réponses à ce sujet

[Mr Wuppet]

Hi all,

 

I've been itching to have another stab at the OC (& MotB) campaign.  Previously, I got to Old Owl Well as a Wood Elf Bard(4)/Ranger(3)/Arcane Archer(1)/Divine Champion(1).  I had planned a Lvl30 build to be Bard(16)/Ranger(3)/AA(9)/DC(2), but after reading that Archery isn't that great in NWN2, I have since changed my mind.  I have seen some great archery/ranged powerbuilds, but I would rather have a more balanced character that fits the background story and has access to several skills, so I am thinking Bard(24)/Ranger(3)/AA(1)/DC(2).

 

I want to play around with a few spells, be useful to my party, but still be able to hold my own in combat.  Feats I definitely want to include are Curse Song, Lingering Song, Chorus of Heroism and Song & Hymn of Requiem.  Feats I need to take are Favored Enemy (undead), Rapid Shot and Weapon Focus (longbow).

 

Other feats I think may be useful, but am unsure about, are Point Blank Shot, Manyshot, Improved Rapid Shot, Practised Spellcaster (bard), Epic Prowess, Epic Toughness and Epic Resilience.  Is Armor Skin a good epic feat, or not worth it?  Is Point Blank Shot really necessary or just a luxury?

 

But the main feat I am concerned about is Blind-Fight.  Obviously very useful for melee fighters, but do archers benefit at all from it?  Does having Point Blank Shot make a difference to this particular feat?

 

Another thing, is it worth taking Epic Toughness early, or would Epic Prowess be more beneficial in early epic levels?

 

Cliffs:

- Blind-Fight: worth taking for ranged archers?  Are potential benefits any better with Point Blank Shot?

- Point Blank Shot: worth it?

- Epic Toughness/Prowess: which to take earlier?

[Dann-J]

Blind Fight is worth taking for any character, although it may be less necessary for an archer who always uses Rapid Shot. There are lots of shadows and wraiths in the OC and MotB that make it a useful feat to have. If you have an extra feat and there's nothing else you'd rather use it on, then I'd say take BF. If every feat is precious to your particular build, then you can probably do without it.

 

I doubt that Point Blank Shot has any effect on how Blind Fight works, however it's a handy feat to have for an archer build in its own right. It's usually required in order to take Rapid Shot, but ranger archers get the RS suite of feats for free. I'd still be taking PBS anyway, unless you plan to switch to melee weapons when enemies get close.

 

I'd certainly take either BF or PBS. Without either you'd find yourself with a -4 attack penalty in close combat, and you'd be missing half the time against creatures with concealment. I'd certainly want to avoid that double-whammy.

[Mr Wuppet]

Thanks; I think I will take BF and PBS then.  If I didn't have companions to manage, I might've taken Weapon Finesse instead of PBS to switch, but they need a lot of help!  Although Khelgar is pretty decent on his own.  I've only gone down the archery road for roleplaying purposes; I understand I'd be most effective as a dual-wielding Dex-based Bard.  It's why I have only taken 1 level of Arcane Archer.  Besides, I think Enhance Arrow doesn't stack with already enhanced arrows, and 8 more levels of Bard buys me a lot more than taking further AA levels.  AA is a really crap PrC considering it can only be taken at Lvl7 at the earliest.

 

Are there any absolutely essential spells I should opt for?

[Arkalezth]

I can answer some of your questions and maybe recommend a build, but first things first, because you seem to contradict yourself here and there: Feats and builds aside, what's the concept? A bard with all the spells and songs who uses a bow as his main weapon? Just an archer? Any other things you want your character to be good at?

[Mr Wuppet]

I want her to actually use some Bard abilities, rather than just a splash of Bard, so songs and inspirations are a must.  I want at least one dialogue skill (I've gone for Diplomacy), Perform (obviously) and UMD would be nice.  The original concept was to be a good archer and the Bard abilities and spells would help the overall party.  But since I don't think I can have all the cake, I have focused on being a Bard first, and an archer second.

[Mr Wuppet]

Using the NWN2DB, I weave the Ranger levels and AA level with Bard early and then take Bard until I have Hymn of Requiem; then 2 levels of Divine Champ for Epic Toughness and Resilience, and it doesn't really matter what class I take at Lvl30; bard seems to offer more saves than Ranger and more skills than AA or DC.  A 4th Ranger level only offers me 2 extra HP.

[Arkalezth]

OK, then I recommend something like this, with a few adjustments: http://nwn2db.com/build/?164244

 

Spot and Listen are not necessary, so you can change them for Diplomacy and something else. A ranger level or two should be easy to fit in (maybe stop AA at 5), and you should manage with a slightly lower AB, so you can drop Epic Prowess or Great DEX in favour of IFE-Undead (which could then be taken early, no need to wait for epic). The rest should remain more or less the same. Divine champion allows you to take wood elf while avoiding an XP penalty, but you may miss on some feat then. Stick to half-elf if you're taking cleric or fighter in addition to bard and ranger.

 

Keep in mind that archery and bard songs don't have a lot of synergy, as the latter work better when you're close to the action. But it's possible to make it work as long as you don't shoot from very far away. This is discussed in the comments of the build I linked.

 

AA's Enhanced Arrows stack with everything. Blind Fight is useful regardless of the weapon you use as long as there are concealed enemies (there are in the OCs, so take it), and there's no substitute for it.  Epic Toughness is pretty crappy for an epic feat, and so is Epic Resilience (Steadfast Determination is generally better, as fortitude is the only save that auto-fails when rolling 1). Armour Skin isn't bad per se, but there's almost always something better to take. You need Point Blank Shot for AA, so no doubt there. It's generally recommended for any dedicated archer, anyway.

[Mr Wuppet]

This does look fairly decent, but I am concerned about access to Hymn of Requiem 2 levels later than in my build and it's missing Chorus of Heroism.  I'll have a play around with it and get back to you with my thoughts.

[Arkalezth]

Well, it wasn't posted with your specific requests in mind, but it's a good build to use as a base. It's easy to adjust to your taste to include things like Chorus or IFE, but the core of the build should be pretty much the same. 

 

You can drop another of the epic feats I mentioned in order to take Chorus (feats are scarce, so I'm not sure if you can keep everything else). As for Hymn, you can get it earlier if you delay some of the AA levels... but then you may lose some skills. You'll have to sacrifice something either way, but it's not possible to do much better with those requirements.

[Mr Wuppet]

His build is better overall after level 27, but in my own build, I get access to the best bard songs earlier.  I would definitely consider his build if I wasn't playing the OC, though.  I can't fit in Improved Critical earlier without bumping down more essential Bard feats.

 

By the way, why are archers in NwN2 considered very vulnerable in close combat?  Is it simply because they cannot wield a shield, or do enemies' AI make them target the archer in particular?

[Tchos]

By the way, why are archers in NwN2 considered very vulnerable in close combat?  Is it simply because they cannot wield a shield, or do enemies' AI make them target the archer in particular?

 
"If a ranged weapon is used in melee, the attacker suffers a -4 penalty to the attack roll and provokes an attack of opportunity."

 

http://nwn2.wikia.co...i/Ranged_weapon

[Mr Wuppet]

So Point Blank Shot does not negate the AoO then?  Makes sense I suppose.  But then that also begs the question of why be a bardic archer in the first place; they kind of have to be in thick of the action for many of the songs to help party members.  I think stealthy assassins lend themselves to be the best archers.

[Tchos]

So Point Blank Shot does not negate the AoO then?

 

According to the wiki article on Point Blank Shot, that is correct.

[GCoyote]

So Point Blank Shot does not negate the AoO then?  Makes sense I suppose.  But then that also begs the question of why be a bardic archer in the first place; they kind of have to be in thick of the action for many of the songs to help party members.  I think stealthy assassins lend themselves to be the best archers.

 

Among other things, Bard's have Tumble as a class skill. Once you get past 15 in Tumble skill, the AoO is less of a problem IIRC.

I've played the OC twice with archery builds and didn't have any particular problem. Always have one tank in the party and the monster AI focuses more on spell casters IMO.

I've never tried a Bard based archer but who knows. It's your game, have fun with it!

[Arkalezth]

His build is better overall after level 27, but in my own build, I get access to the best bard songs earlier.

Not that much, and like I said, it's easy to tweak the build so you get some things a couple of levels earlier (keep in mind that you may end up being a slightly worse archer for most of the game then). The point is that AA is the best class for an archer, and that it's a good idea to take more than a single level.
 

By the way, why are archers in NwN2 considered very vulnerable in close combat?

Because they're archers. That said, a mid-high level bard can be one of the toughest characters in the game, so you should be fine. And of course, you can always have a melee weapon and a shield at hand just in case.

As for why being a bard archer, well, I thought that's what you wanted. It's not the strongest type of bard you can make (STR based with sword and shield is), but it's certainly viable and should do fine. Go with whatever you find more fun and appealing.

[Arkalezth]

I was bored and had some free time. Here: http://nwn2db.com/build/?220789

 

Only 3 AA, but it has IFE-Undead, Chorus, Hymn at 27 and all the basic bard and archery feats.

[Mr Wuppet]

I appreciate the effort; it has very similar stats to my own (yours has slightly better damage owing to the +2 Enhance Arrow and IFE-Undead).  But I think I am going to use an assassin archer in an 'evil' playthrough.

 

I started a Str-based Bard(27)/Fighter(2)/Warlock(1) build, but I am worried I'm going to have trouble keeping my alignment non-lawful during a 'good' playthrough.  Is it difficult to remain Chaotic Good during the campaign?

 

Anyway, I've decided to build a Cleric/Doomguide instead as I assume it's easier to stay Lawful Good, but I've never played one before and I am not sure how to go.  I'd like access to level 9 spells, but should I focus on spells or go melee?  Can I use Divine Might/Shield more often with the Doomguide's Extra Turning abilities?

[Thorsson64]

Among other things, Bard's have Tumble as a class skill. Once you get past 15 in Tumble skill, the AoO is less of a problem IIRC.

 

 

AoO from moving is no longer a problem. AoO from Ranged attacks is unaffected by Tumble. However it doesn't always trigger. As a Bard, you can protect yourself from them to a great extent by Mirror Image and Blur/Greater invisibility.

[Thorsson64]

Anyway, I've decided to build a Cleric/Doomguide instead as I assume it's easier to stay Lawful Good, but I've never played one before and I am not sure how to go.  I'd like access to level 9 spells, but should I focus on spells or go melee?  Can I use Divine Might/Shield more often with the Doomguide's Extra Turning abilities?

 

Doomguide is a sub-par class. You don't want to Turn Undead; you want to bash their skulls in.

[Dann-J]

Doomguide is a sub-par class. You don't want to Turn Undead; you want to bash their skulls in.

 

Yes - and a bastard sword isn't your traditional 'skull bashing' weapon. Nor is it very cleric-like.

 

I suppose that's what you get for letting a human fighter become the god of the dead.

[kamal_]

Yes - and a bastard sword isn't your traditional 'skull bashing' weapon. Nor is it very cleric-like.

 

I suppose that's what you get for letting a human fighter become the god of the dead.

It is excellent for lopping the heads off of zombies however.

[Mr Wuppet]

I tried to play around with a Doomguide build, but I've no experience of clerics whatsoever.  Most guides I looked at completely dumped CHA.  Out of interest, does damage from Divine Might work with a Zen Archery DG?

[Tchos]

A low CHA for a cleric cripples your undead turning ability.  Personally, I enjoy turning undead.  In low level adventures I run my cleric into a crowd of zombies, turn undead, and watch most or all of them fall down dead.  In higher levels it becomes less effective, but many cleric feats allow you to perform abilities at the cost of one of your undead-turning allotment for the day.  A higher CHA also gives you more of those.

[Arkalezth]

Basic cleric: Just enough WIS to cast spells (19 by the time you get level 9 ones) and rest into STR. 10-12 DEX, ~14 CON, 10-14 INT, 8 CHA. Take Extend and Persistent Spell. Buff with any spell that increase your combat prowess and proceed to stab things on the face. Swap CHA and WIS in the case of favoured souls (not going into details about multiclassing).

 

That's not to say that other types of clerics are not viable, but that's usually the most effective approach. Doomguide doesn't add much (you won't even be a better undead turner, other than getting a few feats for free), but it's not going to gimp you either.

 

Divine Might works with any weapon, and yes, anything that increases your Turn Undead uses per day increases the uses of the related abilities (you just have one pool for everything, though).

[Mr Wuppet]

I want to try Turn Undead (never used it before), so for my 'Good' playthrough I've designed a Paladin(27)/Fighter(2)/Cleric(1).  Because I don't have to concentrate on raising WIS so much, I can dump more points into STR and CHA.  Chosen Sun and Earth domains for exceptional turning abilities and extra HP.  By level 25 I have Epic Divine Might and by 29 I can choose Last Stand.

 

For my 'Evil' playthrough, I am going to go with a Bard(23)/Blackguard(3)/Fighter(2)/RDD(2).  Curse Song then seems very appropriate for roleplaying purposes!