84 réponses à ce sujet

[Jeremiah12LGeek]

Yeah but this Rift is 12 lvl so you too low lever for that.

 

I'm not sure you understood. I closed that Rift today while playing on the second highest difficulty, and my character was at level 5. I still have the recording, because I didn't delete it.

 

I have actually mentioned this a few times in the thread. I am not stuck, I am not asking for help getting past the Rift. I closed the rift before anyone made any suggestions about how I could deal with the Rift.

 

 

 

The thread is in the Feedback section and is my feedback about how I think they should use less stunlock when trying to challenge players in the future. It's the title! Nobody ever even reads past the title so idon'tunderstand...

[Youknow]

Yes. I agree that stunlock is a bad way to work around this. Even if the player can dodge the attacks, it's generally not a good idea to have a battle like this. The battles can really only carry out in two ways. 

 

1) The player knows how to handle it and walks into the situation and smashes through it and comes across no problems. 

2) The player walks in and cannot get out of the situation and takes chip damage until they die. 

 

In the event of #1, it's not very good, because really it's a simple as not having your units in close proximity to one another, which is easily done with a unit that you use as range and 1 melee as the melee will run forward, you can strafe away from the starting spot, and then manually switch to another unit and move another range. Once you do that, even with stunlock, the enemies don't have enough damage to actually kill you, and you can bull rush a couple of enemies and the battle is easily controlled. If the enemies DID do enough damage to you to hurt you to death, then their stunlock becomes pointless as you getting hit by burst damage could kill you outright, and there really isn't a point to stunlock. 

 

2) Frustrating as the player finds themselves unable to actually physically DO anything about the situation as the enemies chip your health down, and the only real response is to pray that the AI glitches, or rolls a "I'm not going to use the stunlock move" as a skill. 

 

Having enemies with stunlock is fine, loading up on stunlocking enemies is not fine. 

 

And even with the ability to dodge, I remind Bioware/EA that this game is NOT an action game. It's a RPG, so you can't and shouldn't expect people that play RPGs to necessarily like to have to have good twitch reflexes to play the game. 

[Sunnie]

Honestly, the term stunlock as used in video games literally means Stunned or incapacitated continually until dead.

Frankly, you already described that your character more appropriately leveled didn't have this problem, you may have experienced being stunned but you weren't stunlocked (stunned until dead). 

Your issue that your level 5 group was stunlocked is rather invalid since the encounter is level 12 and you have neither the defense for it or the health at level 5. You were not meant to deal with this encounter at that level. The fact that you can gear yourself well enough and/or use Druffy to help defeat the encounter at level 5 is irrelevant to the issue.

[FALCONGTX]

 

I'm not sure you understood. I closed that Rift today while playing on the second highest difficulty, and my character was at level 5. I still have the recording, because I didn't delete it.

 

I have actually mentioned this a few times in the thread. I am not stuck, I am not asking for help getting past the Rift. I closed the rift before anyone made any suggestions about how I could deal with the Rift.

 

 

 

The thread is in the Feedback section and is my feedback about how I think they should use less stunlock when trying to challenge players in the future. It's the title! Nobody ever even reads past the title so idon'tunderstand...

I understood you perfectly fine, in fact i did this rift myself few days ago on Nightmare with 8 lvl. But what you basically saing is something like "Stop using oneshots by Dragons against us 5 lvl players"  Stunlocks are no issue when you come to rift with appropriate level.

[TheOgre]

Lrn2play scrub.

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[Jeremiah12LGeek]

Honestly, the term stunlock as used in video games literally means Stunned or incapacitated continually until dead.

 

I have never heard it used that strictly, but as it applies to the situation with the river rift, that is in fact what happened many times.

 

Your issue that your level 5 group was stunlocked is rather invalid since the encounter is level 12 and you have neither the defense for it or the health at level 5.

 

My issue isn't invalid. You're opinion of what stunlock counts or doesn't count doesn't change anything. Even by your strict definition of stunlock, it still applies to every example that I gave in the OP.

 

The fact that you can gear yourself well enough and/or use Druffy to help defeat the encounter at level 5 is irrelevant to the issue.

 

Then why on earth would you bring it up if it's irrelevant? You were the one who said that I had to be level 9. I didn't mention anything about it except to point out that it wasn't true. I didn't use Druffy, I closed the rift before I continued down the river to find him. I don't see how my gear has anything to do with it, unless you mean crafting basic low-level weapons with level one materials, which seems pretty normal for level 5 characters.

 

Cassandra (after a fashion) tanked below, Varric and Solas stood on the promontory as they have ranged abilities, and I did my level best to use my MC's stealth and the Rift to stunlock the demons as often as I could. Falling off the promontory was usually a death sentence, since that left me with having to climb back up mid-fight or trying to use the same strategy while finding the one magic glitchy spot on the riverside that the MC can actually reach (although it did make it easier to switch characters without anyone moving out of position.)

 

It seems to me that's a fairly acceptable, normal strategy, and it was the one that I used before I ever posted this thread. And it worked. With normal gear and no Druffy. But it was very frustrating because of all the stunlock killing me many times. If the goal was to make the encounter challenging, I would prefer that it was challenging in a way that didn't rely on stunlock to do it. To be honest, requiring me to grind levels to walk through an area that is theoretically supposed to be level-appropriate doesn't seem like a great design choice to me, either.

[Jeremiah12LGeek]

But what you basically saing is something like "Stop using oneshots by Dragons against us 5 lvl players"

 

No, I never said anything like that. I'm talking about stunlock, not one-shotting, and I never brought up what level I was, nor did I mention anything extreme like Dragons. I'm not wandering through the dragon's area of the map, I'm in a level-appropriate area for my character.

 

Stunlocks are no issue when you come to rift with appropriate level.

 

There isn't a giant sign over the rift that says "don't come here until you're level 9."

 

There are markers on the other side of the rift for level-appropriate missions. The Rift can be defeated by low-level characters, but at the frustrating cost of experiencing a great deal of stunlock.

 

Even if the Rift itself isn't an example to your liking of stunlock it is one example that I used in a post that referenced ME 3 Geth and Collectors, and I have also mentioned the issue as it existed (it has been balanced since the early days) in the MP portion of the game.

 

Focusing on the one thing I did that apparently is considered a no-no in the SP community doesn't actually address the point that I was making.

[FALCONGTX]

No, I never said anything like that. I'm talking about stunlock, not one-shotting, and I never brought up what level I was, nor did I mention anything extreme like Dragons. I'm not wondering through the dragon's area of the map, I'm in a level-appropriate area for my character.

Well this specific rift is 12 lvl(as another two from north west and north east areas of the map), so they are not level-appropriate for your 5 lvl character.

 

There isn't a giant sign over the rift that says "don't come here until you're level 9."

There is you can actually go in "safe zone" of a rift where mobs will spawn but won't aggro you, if their level has a red shield behind it - most likely you will have hard time dealing with them, if their level has a red skull behind it - most likely you will die.

 

There are markers on the other side of the rift for level-appropriate missions. The Rift can be defeated by low-level characters, but at the frustrating cost of experiencing a great deal of stunlock.

You can evade this rift while doing all quests, with no problem at all.

 

Even if the Rift itself isn't an example to your liking of stunlock it is one example that I used in a post that referenced ME 3 Geth and Collectors, and I have also mentioned the issue as it existed (it has been balanced since the early days) in the MP portion of the game.

 

Focusing on the one thing I did that apparently is considered a no-no in the SP community doesn't actually address the point that I was making.

Yeah but gameplay in ME series more relied on player so to evade stun you must literally ran away and keep distance. While here you can stunlock by your self as was suggested earlier.

PS. just curious of your character build and class?

[I saved Star Wars :D]

@Jeremiah I would argue that mechanics like stuns are one of the few incentives to invest in skills other than extra offensive skills. It broadens the gameplay, rather than narrowing it.

It also gives players the opportunity to dodge effects, or damage, which is important in a game that doesn't have things like defender chance stats.

Whether that's enjoyable is down to personal taste ofc - but I think having damgerous yet avoidable attacks, in an action rpg, is at least interesting. Given your example, I'd probably be quite happy as I managed to beat some challenging content, which took several attempts. You did so because you managed to avoid the demon's knockdown, not because your gear or character level carried you.

I.e. To some degree, player skill was rewarded. GG

@Lady Artifice - that's fair enough and I'm sure you aren't alone in thinking that. In terms of stuns specifically,

I would absolutely agree that scripted or unavoidable stuns are an annoyance and not fun, whereas avoidable ones at least reward good play by the player. If combat doesn't feel right to you then this won't either - I suppose I'm defending the concept rather than the overall implementation!

[Basher of Glory]

What I can understand:

 

Someone is annoyed by a particular skill of the enemies. Here it is this "stunlock", in other games it is something else.

I hated the "overwhelm" ability of many mobs (spiders, wolves, drakes etc.) as one example.

 

What I cannot understand:

 

Why complain about that? It's like a soldier complains about the enemy's heavy usage of artillery ("...they are so mean!").

 

 

Of course we can always discuss design-decisions of the devs, level-design (lvl 12 mobs in a lowbie area) and the combat mechanics.

On the other hand: Not anything which is annoying for someone is automatically a "bad design".

 

The OP mentioned, that he closed that rift at level 5. Wow! I found my ways around it and came back when I  outleveled it because I don't

like fights against overpowered (in relation to my level) mobs.

 

But should I decide to take on the battle, how can I complain, that something is annoying of which I wouldn't even take notice with a higher level?

[andy6915]

I tried sneaking past it a couple of times to grab the Druffalo, but the stunlock always stopped me before I got far enough away.

 

In any case, my complaint is less about this particular Rift and more about the consistent use of stunlock to remove control from the player as a way of artificially creating challenge. This Rift was just one of a few examples that I gave.

 

I was ultimately able to grind out the victory, but I would very much like to try and convince BioWare to significantly reduce their reliance on stunlock as a gameplay design choice.

 

 

Use him. The druffalo, I mean. He's very powerful. It might take a few tries still, but if you get lucky that SOB can solo the whole damn rift. I know you already beat the rift, but remember this for next playthrough.

 

Also, use fire mines. Terror demons hate fire mines, if you cast it at your feet. They come up and try to own you and get blown the hell up for it. Of course, this only works if friendly fire is off.

[Magdalena11]

Are you talking about how periodically the controlled character will just freeze and stand there as blows rain down upon them?  Using the isometric camera mode and jumping breaks the freeze.  It's a major annoyance, but it can be worked around.  That's the only situation I can think of where the controlled character isn't doing what it's told.  None of the enemies does it to them, they just get stuck now with the auto-attack.

[Kantr]

Use him. The druffalo, I mean. He's very powerful. It might take a few tries still, but if you get lucky that SOB can solo the whole damn rift. I know you already beat the rift, but remember this for next playthrough.

 

Also, use fire mines. Terror demons hate fire mines, if you cast it at your feet. They come up and try to own you and get blown the hell up for it. Of course, this only works if friendly fire is off.

You can't do those at level five though.

[Jeremiah12LGeek]

PS. just curious of your character build and class?

 

I'm a level 6 Rogue now, and the point I spent was on the Evade ability (as I've mentioned a couple of times, I had the prerequisite, and had planned to take it next when I leveled up.) When I was level 5, I did not have the evade ability, yet. I had both levels of basic stealth, as well as the evolution on Flank Attack that provides indefinite stealth.

 

This next paragraph isn't really directed at you. Just to be clear, and I know I sound like a broken record at this point, but I honestly don't need help figuring out how to play the game. I don't claim to know everything, but some people do seem to be under the impression that I lack basic understanding of gameplay. As far as I know, I have a decent handle on the game's mechanics and how it works. I honestly do feel DA:I is one of the easiest RPGs that I've ever played. I don't mind that, I like challenging games as well as easy ones, it depends on what I'm looking for from a particular game.

 

I just don't like stunlock.

 

Given your example, I'd probably be quite happy as I managed to beat some challenging content, which took several attempts. You did so because you managed to avoid the demon's knockdown, not because your gear or character level carried you.

I.e. To some degree, player skill was rewarded. GG

 

Thank you for that.

 

Use him. The druffalo, I mean. He's very powerful. It might take a few tries still, but if you get lucky that SOB can solo the whole damn rift. I know you already beat the rift, but remember this for next playthrough.

 

I honestly have doubts there will be a third playthrough. But most likely, I would use the less-obvious route to avoid the Rift entirely, as I'd be looking to complete it as quickly as possible, if I played it again.

[Lee80]

You can't balance the game to the point where you can beat enemies that are 7 levels over your current level.  That wouldn't even make sense.  

[Jeremiah12LGeek]

You can't balance the game to the point where you can beat enemies that are 7 levels over your current level.  That wouldn't even make sense.  

 

Not to nitpick, but... the game is balanced so that you can beat enemies that are 7 levels over your current level.

 

I'm not saying one way or the other whether that is a good thing, or not, I'm just pointing out that's the game they designed.

[Lee80]

Not to nitpick, but... the game is balanced so that you can beat enemies that are 7 levels over your current level.

 

I'm not saying one way or the other whether that is a good thing, or not, I'm just pointing out that's the game they designed.

You can barely do it, but as you pointed out you got stun locked and it took a lot of luck.  It wasn't meant to be played in that fashion, that's why it seems like the stunning is a big issue. 

[Jeremiah12LGeek]

It wasn't meant to be played in that fashion

 

I have had a lot of people inform me how the game is meant to be played, but I don't agree. I don't think that I did anything that the developers would feel is outside the scope of how the game should be played.

 

People are entitled to their opinion. But honestly, short of having one of the devs specifically say that I have done something that I'm not supposed to do as a player, I'm going to assume that the way I play falls within the bounds of what they intended. Especially if I am able to be successful doing so without exploiting known glitches.

[Heimdall]

I have had a lot of people inform me how the game is meant to be played, but I don't agree. I don't think that I did anything that the developers would feel is outside the scope of how the game should be played.

 

People are entitled to their opinion. But honestly, short of having one of the devs specifically say that I have done something that I'm not supposed to do as a player, I'm going to assume that the way I play falls within the bounds of what they consider acceptable. Especially if I am able to be successful doing so without exploiting known glitches.

Its not that its unacceptable, but the encounter was simply designed to be tackled by a higher level party.

 

If it seemed overly difficult, that's why.

[Jeremiah12LGeek]

Its not that its unacceptable, but the encounter was simply designed to be tackled by a higher level party.

 

I disagree. I believe the encounter was designed to be easier for a higher level party. That doesn't mean that it was only supposed to be dealt with by higher level parties.

 

If it seemed overly difficult, that's why.

 

What's frustrating me is that I keep having to defend positions that not only I didn't take, but that I've actually expressed my opinion on, only to have that opinion repeatedly ignored.

 

I have said more than once that I do not object to doing things that are difficult. I enjoy difficult and challenging games. I was also very specific that I did not feel that the issue was that the encounter is too difficult, but rather that it relied too heavily on stunlock to be challenging.

 

If the stunlock were removed, the encounter would be ridiculously easy for any party of any level to complete with a minimum of effort. What I suggested was that in the future, they rely less on stunlock to make such an encounter challenging.

 

And with that, I definitely need to take a break from this thread.

 

It's not that I don't appreciate the advice some have given, or that I am unable to defend my opinion. I'm just a little tired of having to spend this much effort arguing over nit-picked points that are at best tangential to what I originally said. If I still feel passionately about arguing the value of less stunlock vs more stunlock later on, I'll address the next round of "your point is invalid because you don't play the game the way I think you're supposed to" posts.

[c0bra951]

I'm conflicted about this.  The stunning in this game has never cost me a battle.  It's short in duration, and there are many ways to bounce back from injury.  However, taking control away from the PCs is almost always a cheap way to make something harder.  As the OP said, it's not really even challenging, because you can't do a thing until it's over.  It also causes inescapable damage, which is always poor game design.  It should be difficult to avoid damage, but never impossible.

[holdenagincourt]

The battles in Inquisition in which you encounter three Terrors simultaneously, especially those of elite rank who have the durability of reinforced concrete, are among the most frustrating and unenjoyable experiences I've had in games, period.

 

They're not particularly difficult even on Nightmare, because you can so easily exploit enemy leashing, LOS and aggro. They just make you sigh and laugh at the design choice.

[JAZZ_LEG3ND]

Stun anything in all of its forms should be disinvented immediately. Artificial difficulty, lazy design… all of the above… garbage by any other name is still garbage.

Whenever I get stunned in a game, I feel it is three seconds of my life I will never get back.

[Realmzmaster]

How is stunlock bad design? I would consider it bad design if there were no counters to it. For example, A rogue with Archery has leaping shot which allows for evade and inflicting damage (even more damage with rolling draw which allows the next shot to do 300% weapon damage)..

 

It is like saying take Pommel Strike from the two-hander with also stuns the enemy opponent for 3 seconds. Or take overwhelm from the spiders in DAO which they did in DAI and seem to replace it with poison spiders that are  extremely accurate (never missing) with their poison strike. Maybe remove the paralyzing poison from the Lurker.

[Yuyana]

Basing an enemy's entire combat difficulty around stunlock is not good gameplay design. Taking control of the player's character away from them constantly and forcing them to watch the combat helplessly while being unable to take any action isn't really gameplay, at all.

 

Obviously the Geth and the Collectors are the extreme examples of this in ME 3, but in DA:I and DAMP, the demon characters rely heavily on stunlock, as well. There's nothing difficult or challenging about stunlock when it makes no difference what a player does. No amount of "skill" matters when you don't control your own character.

 

 

"No amount of "skill" matters when"  the player is too lazy to dodge or counter the stun.

 

Any class can dodge the attack. You can use any stun in the game. You can cast the ice mine under your character to catch them, or static cage around them so they can't jump. If the stun is unavoidable, than yes, it is a bad design and no amount of skill can help you. If you CAN dodge/counter the stun and you don't, than it is your own fault.

 

 

In general, it's a bad idea to force players to build a certain way in order to mitigate a game mechanic (it tends to limit player choice and create an "only certain builds work" environment.)

 

 

If you want to use ineffective build, than play on lowest difficulty and do not attack monsters who have more levels than you. Problem solved. I don't know many games where you can do whatever you want and still not encounter any problems.