84 réponses à ce sujet

[ashwind]

Stun anything in all of its forms should be disinvented immediately. Artificial difficulty, lazy design… all of the above… garbage by any other name is still garbage.

Whenever I get stunned in a game, I feel it is three seconds of my life I will never get back.

 

How is stun and stagger artificial difficulty and bad design? Stunlock on the other hand is not good. And there is a distinction between stun and stunlock. Stunlock means you are permanently stun and there is nothing you can do about it - which is not the case in DAI - unless the player chooses to not learn skills that allow them to do so.

 

Without stun and stagger, it would be two characters standing next to each other hacking each other to death like in old RPG games. "Get smack by a warhammer, no problem, here have a piece of my battleaxe". Back in those days, we complain about how silly it is to take a hammer to the face and go on fighting as if nothing happened.

 

In the words of Cassandra: People will stand in the fire and complain that it is hot.

[Youknow]

How is stun and stagger artificial difficulty and bad design? Stunlock on the other hand is not good. And there is a distinction between stun and stunlock. Stunlock means you are permanently stun and there is nothing you can do about it - which is not the case in DAI - unless the player chooses to not learn skills that allow them to do so.

 

Without stun and stagger, it would be two characters standing next to each other hacking each other to death like in old RPG games. "Get smack by a warhammer, no problem, here have a piece of my battleaxe". Back in those days, we complain about how silly it is to take a hammer to the face and go on fighting as if nothing happened.

 

In the words of Cassandra: People will stand in the fire and complain that it is hot.

I think that was actually sarcasm to be honest. 

 

Thing is, there are numerous types of stun. Stun and stagger are not inherently bad design, but stun and stagger can be a bad thing in a game like this. Stunlock isn't even necessarily bad in a game like this because you have multiple allies to prevent it from happening. The issue is that your characters are generally too stupid to help you in the event that you are knocked into a stunlock fest, and unless you directly intervene, they'll usually divebomb inside the stunlock radius as well. And that's the issue: you must learn a special skill to get out of it-- ie, not having real skills in the action combat hybrid style to get out of being stunned... You know, like any action game? Giving every character so little as a generic roll to get out of the way of attacks would go a long way for this. That way, you aren't sort of forced to invest in a tree of skills to give yourself an ability to get out of something that can and possibly will kill you if you don't use said skill. The issue here is not just one problem: it's a myriad of problems that are compounding upon themselves to make for a rather dreadful situation that can be rather nasty to players. IE, if you already used your skill and it's on cooldown, you're just SOL for no real reason, it's actually limiting, because once the player knows this, we're back to my situation from my first post. You know how to win, it's just an annoying enemy now. In lower difficulties, no sweat, in higher difficulties, this is literally cause for a "pause game, computer do this, do this, do that. Go. Everyone does a turn, pause game, computer do this, that, etc." rinse and repeat. Not fun. 

 

Stun and stagger are needed yes, the issue is that RPGs muddle this to a weird point. In action games, being stunned is literally for like... 5 frames tops.Long enough to prevent an offensive move generally, but not long enough to stop you from acting. In RPGs, this is normally a death sentence. Stun in RPG land is more akin to "Dizzy/stagger" from Street Fighter 4 where it's a prolonged period of time where you can't move nor act, but at least in Street Fighter it's because you were taking a pretty terrible beating with multiple mistakes. In this? It could be because you took one step and got aggro from two enemies. That's not sufficient for a mistake. It's the player trying to walk. And if the game is going to require twitch like reflexes, I reiterate that these hitboxes cannot be this lame. 

[ashwind]

I think that was actually sarcasm to be honest. 

 

Thing is, there are numerous types of stun. Stun and stagger are not inherently bad design, but stun and stagger can be a bad thing in a game like this. Stunlock isn't even necessarily bad in a game like this because you have multiple allies to prevent it from happening. The issue is that your characters are generally too stupid to help you in the event that you are knocked into a stunlock fest, and unless you directly intervene, they'll usually divebomb inside the stunlock radius as well. And that's the issue: you must learn a special skill to get out of it-- ie, not having real skills in the action combat hybrid style to get out of being stunned... You know, like any action game? Giving every character so little as a generic roll to get out of the way of attacks would go a long way for this. That way, you aren't sort of forced to invest in a tree of skills to give yourself an ability to get out of something that can and possibly will kill you if you don't use said skill. The issue here is not just one problem: it's a myriad of problems that are compounding upon themselves to make for a rather dreadful situation that can be rather nasty to players. IE, if you already used your skill and it's on cooldown, you're just SOL for no real reason, it's actually limiting, because once the player knows this, we're back to my situation from my first post. You know how to win, it's just an annoying enemy now. In lower difficulties, no sweat, in higher difficulties, this is literally cause for a "pause game, computer do this, do this, do that. Go. Everyone does a turn, pause game, computer do this, that, etc." rinse and repeat. Not fun. 

 

Stun and stagger are needed yes, the issue is that RPGs muddle this to a weird point. In action games, being stunned is literally for like... 5 frames tops.Long enough to prevent an offensive move generally, but not long enough to stop you from acting. In RPGs, this is normally a death sentence. Stun in RPG land is more akin to "Dizzy/stagger" from Street Fighter 4 where it's a prolonged period of time where you can't move nor act, but at least in Street Fighter it's because you were taking a pretty terrible beating with multiple mistakes. In this? It could be because you took one step and got aggro from two enemies. That's not sufficient for a mistake. It's the player trying to walk. And if the game is going to require twitch like reflexes, I reiterate that these hitboxes cannot be this lame. 

 

I can understand what you are saying. To fight such enemies without having any counter skills is annoying. However, it is your choice to not have any of these skills. The terror stun circle is easy to see and you can even walk out of it. I agree that dodge/roll should be a basic skill. Failing that, I simply take those skills myself as it suits my play style.

 

DAI is a semi action game. You have 2 ways to deal with these stun attacks. 1. Tactical combat, heavy pauses and micro management. 2. Action combat.

 

If you want to play action combat but dont want to take roll/dodge skills, then you are basically asking for trouble.

 

Even on the highest difficulty, if you play this game like an action game, Terrors wont be annoying, they poses no threat because they are so freaking slow.

 

[Edit]

This is like playing D&D, insisting on a party of four warriors and insisting on attacking Rust Monsters wielding longswords and wearing platemail. Or Insisting on a party of 4 mages and insisting on braving the beholder cave. Then complain about how annoying rust monsters and beholders are.

Modifié par ashwind, 29 juillet 2015 - 07:27 .

[Realmzmaster]

Investing in a tree of skills is not necessary to have the ability to break the stun. For example the rogue with Archery can get leaping shot with an investment of two points on the left hand side. Three points if the character wants rolling draw. Three points in subterfuge can get a rogue the evade skill. Other classes have abilities early on that can counter the terror's stun.

 

Also the terror telegraphs the move. It crouches down to sink into the Fade and comes out underneath the intended victim. Even if the effect causes a knockdown the character can actually  get up and walk away.

[JAZZ_LEG3ND]

Sarcasm, exaggeration, yeah, I wasn’t writing a dissertation, nor am I properly qualified. Stunning and staggering in game-making I’m sure have their place, but that doesn’t necessarily mean I’ll be a fan.

That said, I have played games were staggering and stun-frames feel justified and manageable. Dark Souls, for example, and the Poise mechanic Fromsoft includes. Quite brilliant.

Bioware in particular are incessant with the stunning. Play Mass Effect 3 and fight Geth, you’ll understand immediately. When you attach stun-frames to an enemy’s most basic attack, you’re being lazy: a la Geth Bomber, Collector everything, etc.

Because control is taken from the player for the duration of the stun, it should never be something that just ‘happens’. It should be incorporated for only special telegraphed attacks, or a Poise-esque system like in Dark Souls, where each consecutive attack brings you closer to being staggered: you escape the danger-zone—queue song—or tank if you know you can win, etc. I would be fine with those.

Bioware are lazy with how they incorporate staggering and stunning. Many enemies, like the Geth or Collector factions from Mass Effect, are stun-lock incubators due to so many enemies have stagger capability. Gets ridiculous. Not fun.

[c0bra951]

Because control is taken from the player for the duration of the stun, it should never be something that just ‘happens’. It should be incorporated for only special telegraphed attacks, or a Poise-esque system like in Dark Souls, where each consecutive attack brings you closer to being staggered: you escape the danger-zone—queue song—or tank if you know you can win, etc. I would be fine with those.

 

Very well put.  The player should never suffer a control lockout without a clear, preventable cause.

[Realmzmaster]

Sarcasm, exaggeration, yeah, I wasn’t writing a dissertation, nor am I properly qualified. Stunning and staggering in game-making I’m sure have their place, but that doesn’t necessarily mean I’ll be a fan.

That said, I have played games were staggering and stun-frames feel justified and manageable. Dark Souls, for example, and the Poise mechanic Fromsoft includes. Quite brilliant.

Bioware in particular are incessant with the stunning. Play Mass Effect 3 and fight Geth, you’ll understand immediately. When you attach stun-frames to an enemy’s most basic attack, you’re being lazy: a la Geth Bomber, Collector everything, etc.

Because control is taken from the player for the duration of the stun, it should never be something that just ‘happens’. It should be incorporated for only special telegraphed attacks, or a Poise-esque system like in Dark Souls, where each consecutive attack brings you closer to being staggered: you escape the danger-zone—queue song—or tank if you know you can win, etc. I would be fine with those.

Bioware are lazy with how they incorporate staggering and stunning. Many enemies, like the Geth or Collector factions from Mass Effect, are stun-lock incubators due to so many enemies have stagger capability. Gets ridiculous. Not fun.

 

How is it any different from being hit by the enemy with a Pommel Strike which stuns for 3 seconds or a group of enemy warriors in a mob using the same attack in succession on a character? The character remains stunned and control is still taken away. Or a group of lurkers targeting the warrior holding aggro with their paralyzing poison?

 

Lazy design or bad design is if there are no counters. There are counters to the terror's attack.

[Bayonet Hipshot]

I think that too much stunlock is a stupid game design decision but in DAI, if you are getting stunlocked too much, that probably means you are underleveled.

 

If not you should either be able to face them or teleport away or stealth away or lock them in a magical cage or trap them in a magical singularity or use up your potions.

 

What's more, every enemy in DAI have some sort of precursor move before they unleash a damaging attack or an stunlock. Some crouch, some rise on their hind legs, some manipulate a book magically, take their time to lift a rock, etc. Watch for those and time your dodges. Use tactical camera and pause liberally.

 

If you refuse to listen to these advices, drop the difficulty down to easy.

[JAZZ_LEG3ND]

How is it any different from being hit by the enemy with a Pommel Strike which stuns for 3 seconds or a group of enemy warriors in a mob using the same attack in succession on a character? The character remains stunned and control is still taken away. Or a group of lurkers targeting the warrior holding aggro with their paralyzing poison?

Not sure what bit you're on about, exactly. I didn't think enemies had Pommel Strikes(?). If you mean the poise mechanic, it’s a lot different.

Every attack deals poise damage—Short Sword deals 20 poise damage, Great Axe deals 50—you can increase your poise via armour/levelling. Agile classes use iframes to dodge, tank classes use armour and shields to soak damage. It’s possible to make a tank that can’t really be staggered, unless you drain your stamina shielding, then get thumped. Basically, if you’re hit so much that the poise damage build-up passes your poise threshold, you’re locked in stun-frames for a moment while you recover. It’s punishment for making mistakes, or not playing your build right. Bioware’s traditional use of stun-frames are punishment for playing, period.

To be clear though, I don’t have trouble with being stun-locked in Inquisition. There’s the Sampson fight, which is kinda dumb, but overall, stun frames are only annoying because they’re excessive. Certain creatures can take control away for several seconds with their opening attack. I don’t die from it, it’s just annoying.

Similar to biotics in the first Mass Effect; they could completely disable you. Rarely did it cause death, it was just an unnecessary annoyance. “You can’t play because you played.” Hence it was taken out in 2 and 3. Bioware does this a lot, is all I’m saying, and they don’t need to.

[Youknow]

I can understand what you are saying. To fight such enemies without having any counter skills is annoying. However, it is your choice to not have any of these skills. The terror stun circle is easy to see and you can even walk out of it. I agree that dodge/roll should be a basic skill. Failing that, I simply take those skills myself as it suits my play style.

 

DAI is a semi action game. You have 2 ways to deal with these stun attacks. 1. Tactical combat, heavy pauses and micro management. 2. Action combat.

 

If you want to play action combat but dont want to take roll/dodge skills, then you are basically asking for trouble.

 

Even on the highest difficulty, if you play this game like an action game, Terrors wont be annoying, they poses no threat because they are so freaking slow.

 

[Edit]

This is like playing D&D, insisting on a party of four warriors and insisting on attacking Rust Monsters wielding longswords and wearing platemail. Or Insisting on a party of 4 mages and insisting on braving the beholder cave. Then complain about how annoying rust monsters and beholders are.

 

Sure, it's "my choice" in the sense that it adds unnecessary pain. The issue is that no other skill is that mandatory, so it may as well be forced. The worst part is that it takes away from an ability slot. 

 

I'd argue that this is a fault of the game, not the player. Semi-Action doesn't work well. Especially when skills are the main things that you're going to be using to move rather than... the movement abilities of the character themselves. I'd be fine with passives that made your dodging abilities better, but this system doesn't particularly work like this. At this point, it's not really much of a choice. It's akin to "do you wish to shoot your own foot off or not?" That's not a good idea, because it's still leaving the notion of "beginners traps" and the like. Not good.

 

You still have trouble though. The computers can't do it, so you still have to manage regardless. 

 

And if I do, then we run into the problem of "it's a bad action game because I don't have a evade as a standard skill." Either way, we're hitting problems. This is what I meant by the issue we're seeing is not one, but many. 

 

No. It's not. It's more akin to having enemies constantly attacking you with fear attacks and forcing you to take a feat to stop this nonsense from happening. Losing control is never fun. I'd rather be OHKOed than stunned and then smacked around to death.