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[Linkenski]

ME3: The reapers are ancient cyborgs who value all organic life and they turn all advanced organics into reapers as a supposed act of kindness. This is where the reapers stopped making sense. Not only is their "solution" based on a false premise, but their "solution" itself is illogical and contrived.

So, this is the part where I'm always sort of ambivalent, but I think you're actually misinterpreting it. It doesn't come across as an act of "kindness" to me as much as it just comes across as brutally rational. The idea is that the Reapers were retconned from being supersapient species that transcended our understanding, who obliterated us out of reasons we can't comprehend anyway, into a race of advanced AIs that follow a directive that's supposed to control the growth of organic evolution to the point where it's ensured to never get out of hand.

 

The idea could've worked better (still not sure it would just work completely in any instance) and it is the execution that reeked of Mac/Casey not fully comprehending the ideas they were playing around with, but I do stand by that I don't think from the Reapers' POV that their motive was in "kindness". It was just an AI being an AI. It simulates logic and human reasoning but it doesn't really work the same way and thus there's a lack of understanding and we don't comprehend it, and neither do they comprehend us.

 

So that being said, the biggest takeaway from what the Reapers mean still remains: The control and imprisonment of human or alien (or geth) fate. That IS certainly a theme during the Geth/Quarian conflict as well, but as a whole the train of logic and meaning of the story is still very muddled in those last 10 minutes.

 

It IS a retcon, for sure and a real bummer at that, but I think seeing it as "an act of kindness" is kind of wrong to say, but for sure, that's how it comes across in the way it was delivered, at least in its original state and outside of the fact that your only dialogue response was about what it means to be organic as opposed to machine.

[Vanilka]

His talk is just talk, his actions speak volumes.

 

This. Well, all of that, but mostly this. This can be applied to the Leviathan, as well. It'll pretty much tell you, "Yeah, we screwed up, whatever, it's still doing its job, this is perfectly fine," but the moment you tell the Leviathan they are probably going to get harvested, too, they are suddenly not all that chill about the Catalyst just doing its job any more and suddenly get all vengeful and eager to fight. The Leviathan are massive hypocrites.

 

You know, I really love the idea this game gives you of them making the Catalyst and then being like, "Sh*t, sh*t, sh*t! (Leviathan hide in dark caves for millions of years)" That's so freaking funny. Shepard should get an option to burst out into hysterical laughter during that dialogue. Ah well, at least we get an option to get pissed.

[Dantriges]

Yeah all this talk about being the apex race is so silly.   So the reapers nearly wiped them out and they hid for a billion years doing more or less nothing in the 50k intervals when the Reapers are gone.* These dudes who can enthrall every organic and would be able to fry Souvereign in ten seconds. Who actually know who the controlling intelligence is and probably even where.

 

And well if the solution to execute the mandate to preserve all organic life is indistinguishable from a solution to the mandate to wipe out as many advanced spacefaring civilisations as possible in the next billion years, something is definitely wrong.

 

*ok there are some hints about the Rachni, the most exploited race in the last 100k years.

[The Heretic of Time]

So, this is the part where I'm always sort of ambivalent, but I think you're actually misinterpreting it. It doesn't come across as an act of "kindness" to me as much as it just comes across as brutally rational. The idea is that the Reapers were retconned from being supersapient species that transcended our understanding, who obliterated us out of reasons we can't comprehend anyway, into a race of advanced AIs that follow a directive that's supposed to control the growth of organic evolution to the point where it's ensured to never get out of hand.

 

The idea could've worked better (still not sure it would just work completely in any instance) and it is the execution that reeked of Mac/Casey not fully comprehending the ideas they were playing around with, but I do stand by that I don't think from the Reapers' POV that their motive was in "kindness". It was just an AI being an AI. It simulates logic and human reasoning but it doesn't really work the same way and thus there's a lack of understanding and we don't comprehend it, and neither do they comprehend us.

 

So that being said, the biggest takeaway from what the Reapers mean still remains: The control and imprisonment of human or alien (or geth) fate. That IS certainly a theme during the Geth/Quarian conflict as well, but as a whole the train of logic and meaning of the story is still very muddled in those last 10 minutes.

 

It IS a retcon, for sure and a real bummer at that, but I think seeing it as "an act of kindness" is kind of wrong to say, but for sure, that's how it comes across in the way it was delivered, at least in its original state and outside of the fact that your only dialogue response was about what it means to be organic as opposed to machine.

 

The "act of kindness" part in my post you replied to was mostly a sarcastic and cynical remark. I know what the reapers do isn't really kind, far from it. Hence the "supposed" part. They think they're doing the galaxy a service while really, they're f*cking things up.

Good post by the way. I do pretty much agree with everything you said.

[AlanC9]

Leviathan also creates more plotholes like, how were the most powerful beings in the galaxy harvested when there were no reapers and when they actually seem to have no problem sending a capital ship down in a matter of seconds. It also makes them look really dumb because they made a powerful synthetic to solve an issue with synthetics and thought they were too cool to fit into the pattern. They didn't even bother to check what the thing was doing. They have 50,000 year long breaks between the cycles, yet they do nothing to try to solve the issue for millions of years. And, exactly as you said, how freaking lazy is that? I mean, instead of trying to solve it themselves, they made a synthetic... when they knew synthetics were the problem.

There's SF precedent for combining power and stupidity. For instance, the thrintun from Larry Niven's Known Space sequence. They're fairly stupid, but that's because they have the Power, and can mentally dominate other races. If they need some thinking done, they make a tnuctipun do it. Which worked great, until it didn't.

I'd pay a couple bucks for a DLC patch where Shepard can laugh at those Leviathan fools.

[AlanC9]

So, this is the part where I'm always sort of ambivalent, but I think you're actually misinterpreting it. It doesn't come across as an act of "kindness" to me as much as it just comes across as brutally rational. The idea is that the Reapers were retconned from being supersapient species that transcended our understanding, who obliterated us out of reasons we can't comprehend anyway, into a race of advanced AIs that follow a directive that's supposed to control the growth of organic evolution to the point where it's ensured to never get out of hand.
 

I'm not sure you're framing this properly. From Drew K.'s statements it sounds like Bio always thought of the Reaper motivation as a puzzle that needed to be solved, rather than as an eternal mystery of the universe.

[Monica21]

I'm not sure you're framing this properly. From Drew K.'s statements it sounds like Bio always thought of the Reaper motivation as a puzzle that needed to be solved, rather than as an eternal mystery of the universe.

 

I don't know if I'm agreeing or disagreeing with anyone at this point, but that was my first thought after the conversation with Sovereign on Virmire. Why are they doing this? They're an advanced AI but there has to be some reason beyond "you will end because we demand it." Every thinking being has a reason for doing something. The fact that Sovereign said that it was for reasons beyond my comprehension wasn't good enough. So, to me, the three games peeled back the layers of they "why." I don't even know if the Reapers really knew the reason beyond what they were coded to know.

[The Heretic of Time]

I don't know if I'm agreeing or disagreeing with anyone at this point, but that was my first thought after the conversation with Sovereign on Virmire. Why are they doing this? They're an advanced AI but there has to be some reason beyond "you will end because we demand it." Every thinking being has a reason for doing something. The fact that Sovereign said that it was for reasons beyond my comprehension wasn't good enough. So, to me, the three games peeled back the layers of they "why." I don't even know if the Reapers really knew the reason beyond what they were coded to know.

 

I'm sure there is more to a reaper than mere code. Otherwise why would the Catalyst need organic slurpee to make a reaper?

 

It's just another thing that I hate about ME3. The reapers were supposed to be independent, each a nation, free of all weaknesses. Then in ME3 it turns out that they're not independent, they all answer to an A.I. and this connection to the A.I. actually turns out to be their one weakness, as it allows the Crucible to exploit it and alter their state.

The reapers were build up to be great and interesting villains in ME1 and ME2, then ME3 takes a huge dump on them, then the EC takes an even bigger dump on them and finally the Leviathan DLC takes the biggest dump on them.

 

They reapers just became more and more stupid the more we learned about them. It all started going downhill with the Catalyst and it just became worse and worse when BioWare tried to justify the Catalyst's inane ramblings with the EC and the Leviathan DLC.

[Vanilka]

There's SF precedent for combining power and stupidity. For instance, the thrintun from Larry Niven's Known Space sequence. They're fairly stupid, but that's because they have the Power, and can mentally dominate other races. If they need some thinking done, they make a tnuctipun do it. Which worked great, until it didn't.

I'd pay a couple bucks a DLC patch where Shepard can laugh at those Leviathan fools.

 

You make a good point. And I admit I'm willing to cut them some slack in that particular department because they were obviously blinded with how high and mighty they were. It's not unlike what happened to the quarians and the geth where the quarians also thought they had stuff under control until they didn't. I also must say that I loved the DLC otherwise and it's a thoroughly enjoyable experience to me, minus the few plotholes introduced at the end (e.g. harvesting these goddamn almighty creatures without reapers)... and the desperate attempt to justify the Catalyst... and the lack of the ability to facepalm at Leviathan's epic fails. But, hey, yelling at giant, ancient, mind-controlling monsters was pretty satisfying, too.

[q5tyhj]

Hey OP.  I completely beg to differ.  Read the link in my sig. 

You mean the part about an "objective, fact-based analysis on my completely subjective personal preference?" Loooool.. Glad you pointed that out, that was worth a chuckle. 

[q5tyhj]

People don't complain about the fact of death itself. 

 

 

What you're missing is that Shephard dying had nothing to do with the quality of the ending.

You mean, it had nothing to do with the quality of the ending in your estimation, and you, Vazgen, don't complain about the fact of death itself. Obviously "people" have and do complain about Shepard dying, and this is a major count against the ending in their minds. We've seen plenty such comments on this forum. Some of the advocates of MEHEM come awfully close to explicitly admitting that the main (or only) reason for using something like MEHEM is to make it so Shepard lives happily ever after. And yes OP, given that the writers belabored the theme of sacrifice throughout the series, Shepard's death (in most of the possible endings) was all but inevitable- avoiding it would've been yet another one of the kind of internal inconsistencies that plagued the ending. 

[Vanilka]

The big appeal of mods like MEHEM is also the fact that they cut the Catalyst out and save us 20 minutes of eye-rolling.

 

Another fact is that they don't do much more than the original game already does - they take the high EMS Destroy's breath scene, which is already there and which is there to imply that Shepard survived the ordeal, and merely take it a step further. Basically, by making the breath scene, the writers left Shepard's fate intentionally ambiguous, inviting the player to headcanon whatever they wish. Some people may headcanon Shepard died soon afterwards, some may headcanon that Shepard survived, in which case mods like MEHEM aren't really out of place.

[q5tyhj]

The big appeal of mods like MEHEM is also the fact that they cut the Catalyst out and save us 20 minutes of eye-rolling.

But, as per people's explicit comments on this forum in the past, Shepard not dying is also a big appeal, and is a complaint against the ending. The point is that saying that nobody had a problem with Shepard dying or complained about it is patently false.

[Vanilka]

However, Shepard not dying is already in the original game which makes the argument "People hate it because Shepard dies," a little funny to me. But maybe that's just me anyway.

 

Of course, I agree, it would be totally untrue to claim that nobody had a problem with the fact that Shepard dies in all but one ending and that one ending being very open at that.

 

EDIT: I think it might be in part also because of how it all goes down. I must say that being forced to jump into a disintegrating beam of light or getting electrocuted, etc., just because some holokid we just met said so seems pretty cheap. Then again, that's just my opinion. I don't really pick those anyway because I want that thing to just freaking die already.

[Vanilka]

You don't have to jump into the beam or grab the power controls. You are free to destroy the Reapers if you wish. It even says as much "it is now in your power to destroy us".
 
You aren't forced to do anything.

 
That's literally what I've said and what I've said I do. That doesn't make the ways to die any less cheap, though. I did say it was my opinion, too.
 
I'd also reconsider the "You aren't forced to do anything." Ultimately, you are forced to choose one of the options. The only other option you have is to turn the game off.

[AlanC9]

The reapers were build up to be great and interesting villains in ME1 and ME2, then ME3 takes a huge dump on them, then the EC takes an even bigger dump on them and finally the Leviathan DLC takes the biggest dump on them.
 
They reapers just became more and more stupid the more we learned about them. It all started going downhill with the Catalyst and it just became worse and worse when BioWare tried to justify the Catalyst's inane ramblings with the EC and the Leviathan DLC.

I think where we part company is that I never thought the Reapers were all that. My reaction to Sovereign was pretty similar to Monica21's -- I figured that either he was hiding something that really was comprehensible, or maybe he didn't even know it himself. Somewhat reminiscent of BSG Cylons, actually.

Also, note that the exact same thing happens to Saren in ME1 -- over the course of the game he goes from a powerful enemy to a pathetic indoctrinated stooge.

[Vanilka]

It does give you the option to refuse the Reapers. Although it was mentioned many times that you can't defeat the Reapers without the Crucible.

 

So...

 

Tries to defeat Reapers without Crucible. Loses war. Next cycle finishes the job with Crucible. The end.

 

Because Refuse is totally not one of the choices.................

[Vanilka]

There are four options with the Extended Cut.

 

Assuming most people here have it.

 

I was being sarcastic. In hindsight, maybe not the best idea.

 

I'm just saying that Refuse is just yet another choice you are oh so mercifully allowed to make. Nothing more.

[Monica21]

I was being sarcastic. In hindsight, maybe not the best idea.

 

I'm just saying that Refuse is just yet another choice you are oh so mercifully allowed to make. Nothing more.

 

What did you want to do? Not being sarcastic, just curious.

[Vanilka]

What did you want to do? Not being sarcastic, just curious.

 

To be honest? Not get an ending that basically consists of "Character arrives in a room. Character talks to a doorman. Character is allowed to choose door A, B, C, or D. The End." I did state several times it's my opinion, but apparently that's a big deal here. (And that's not aimed at you. I'm also perfectly okay with discussing those opinions, but not when somebody jumps on me for the sake of jumping on me while completely disregarding what I said, just to prove that somebody's wrong on the internet. When I say, "Well, that's kinda cheap, imho, but I pick Destroy anyway," and somebody jumps in and responds, "Well, you should pick Destroy if you don't like the choices," then it's just bound to go downhill from there.)

[Vazgen]

You mean, it had nothing to do with the quality of the ending in your estimation, and you, Vazgen, don't complain about the fact of death itself. Obviously "people" have and do complain about Shepard dying, and this is a major count against the ending in their minds. We've seen plenty such comments on this forum. Some of the advocates of MEHEM come awfully close to explicitly admitting that the main (or only) reason for using something like MEHEM is to make it so Shepard lives happily ever after. And yes OP, given that the writers belabored the theme of sacrifice throughout the series, Shepard's death (in most of the possible endings) was all but inevitable- avoiding it would've been yet another one of the kind of internal inconsistencies that plagued the ending. 

I don't know, even outside of this forum I almost never see comments from people who had problems with Shepard dying. They have problems with how he dies. The main drawing point of MEHEM is that it bypasses the Catalyst conversation. Quite a few people also download Alternate MEHEM mod which keeps the conversation but explicitly shows Shepard being rescued in Destroy ending which is something clearly hinted to with the breath scene - that mod simply provides more closure to the already existing situation. 

Of course, I'm talking about the Extended Cut, Shepard's breath scene was not possible without multiplayer prior to its release and a lot of people missed it. 

 

Do you think we'd still get the same outrage if Shepard sacrificed himself to save everyone and then we were shown what happened to every race, every squadmate and the opening of a large Shepard memorial in the Presidium with every squadmate in the series in attendance? 

Hell, do you think we'd still get the same outrage if Extended Cut was a part of the original game?

[Rhaenyss]

I can see how someone would be disappointed with demystification of reapers, but I was actually relieved that they didn't keep it Lovecraftian (I rolled my eyes along with my Shepard at Virmire when we heard that Sovereign speech). I find the whole reaper thing incredibly amusing actually, the way they "preserve" life in their most basic components as if it's the same thing as living.

 

Honestly, I approach the whole game and its story in the same way I've watched Farscape. I loved that show for the characters, and if the story had all powerful wormholes, space magic and australian aliens, so be it. It was the emotional component that made me want to watch it.