718 réponses à ce sujet

[Vanilka]

I think in the original ending more tech was indiscriminately destroyed, and in EC they tried to make it look better. I personally think they should've left the Destroy ending much more damaging to all tech, because they made it look almost selective in EC, and it just raises questions (such as "why and how only geth and edi" etc). 

 

The original was still fairly curious because the Normandy seemed to work just fine. People with implants still looked okay. But you're right that it seems that, despite what the Catalyst says, Destroy is quite discriminative, actually. Both with EC and without.

 

I admit I'm a sucker for optimistic, feel-good endings, so I'd probably be in an even worse situation than now, but it would probably erase a lot of questions I have just because the option is so inconsistent. It makes you go, "And why...? And why not...?" all the time. Well, at least it does it to me.

[fraggle]

Yes, I get this conversation, too. From that, I understood that EDI really likes Joker. So much that she would die for him. However, there's also this:
 
EDI: I was considering this: For all their supposed intelligence, the Reapers are more easily destroyed than they think. This has caused me to reassess the probable period of time before I am non-functional.
Shepard: You're worried about dying?
EDI: In a sense. (Then she goes on about the purpose of organic life and such.) 
 
And, I mean, those things aren't mutually exclusive. If you care about somebody so much that you'd die for them, that doesn't mean you don't care about living. EDI looks afraid in London, too. She doesn't directly state it, but she looks and sounds and acts afraid. She purposely avoids Shepard's question about it. She's probably not just afraid of becoming "non-functional", of course. She's probably afraid of losing the war much more. But that's that. I think she understands the value of life and I don't believe she'd go down feeling nothing. (And this character, this precious synthetic little sister that we were educating throughout the game, whom we were helping to understand the world, is killed off-screen in Destroy. You don't really have to deal with it at all. That kind of breaks my heart.)

 

Of course you're right about the living aspect, she does want to live. But I think the other dialogue shows she's fine with dying if it saves Joker. So basically, if you choose Destroy, she would likely be okay with it, at least that's how I took it. Of course the other options would have a better outcome for her, but I guess she would be glad that Joker made it out no matter what.

 

As for the geth, who knows. However, what do they think the Crucible is likely to do? Now I'm not sure they would be able to do something about it, mind you. I don't know whether they can change like EDI can change herself. But some concern at least would be in order, imho. I mean, they have reaper code and we're working on destroying the reapers. If a dumb organic like myself can put 2 and 2 together, I think the geth should, too. And some concern from the people building the Crucible would be in order, too. I mean, if they found out that it might kill off all humans or all asari, would they do nothing if they could help it, too?

 

No idea Maybe they think that Reaper code is different from an actual Reaper. Or they don't know we want to specifically destroy the Reapers. I think it's rather tough here to come up with an answer for this issue, as we players most likely know a lot more and a lot more details than certain in-game parties, yet we don't know how much they know or which parts.

 

About the second thing, I honestly believe most organics don't even give a sh*t if the geth survive or not. Especially since they probably haven't forgotten about Saren's geth army, or the war with the quarians. Now we as the player know why that stuff happened, and of course Shepard knows, but I doubt anyone working on the Crucible really knows and thus they won't care too much. I think

If they found out that it would affect organics too, yeah, they might've tried to find a way, but in the end I think they still would've deployed the Crucible, they have no other choice anyway.

 

Kaidan may survive it, but the biotic implants are directly connected to his nervous system. That's the reason he still has his L2s and hasn't replaced them with better ones to get rid of his migraines. Nobody, even in that day and age, dares to replace those things as there's a huge risk it could easily cripple the patient. My point is, if Kaidan's implants got damaged or, goddess forbid, destroyed, that would very likely injure him really bad and possibly leave him with permanent damage. It's not unlikely he could get paralysed for the rest of his life or something. That's at least what the game has to say about it. However, we see him get out of the Normandy just fine.

 

Yes, I agree with you, and that showed me personally that the Catalyst didn't tell the truth in this case. We simply don't know enough in this matter though, like, what does the Catalyst mean with "all technology/synthetics". Is it really all or simply the tech based on what the Reapers left behind so we'd "develop along their desired path"? And if that is the case is that the reason that only some technology is left behind intact? I guess this is really a thing that doesn't make much sense for all options, however for certain situations like in high EMS it can make sense. I would also need to investigate a bit further and check all the possible outcomes again, see the dialogue variations, but I have no time for that right now

 

It could be that the Catalyst is just trying to be a sneaky little bastard as you say. That conversation would make much more sense if that were the case. But I'm sincerely afraid that is not what the writers intended. Always good for a headcanon, though. I mean, who can say that's not true, right?

 

Don't know, there are quite some hints the Catalyst does indeed want you to pick Synthesis based on how it promotes it, but yeah, we never know the writer's intention of course. But it's nice to play around with it. Maybe something can accidentally make sense

 

I'm all for more tech getting destroyed with low or medium EMS. Variation is good. But perhaps that's also why I feel like leaving EDI and the geth out should be an option with very high EMS. Especially since we don't really know why "all synthetics" must get destroyed and what it means. (Again, me having too many questions perhaps.) That just gets thrown around like a fact without the Catalyst getting into it. So, it's not just EDI and the geth, which pretty much destroys the "they have reaper parts" argument, but "all synthetics". I mean, there are three version of destroy and yet there wasn't space to give our synthetic friends and allies a chance. And I can't just let the Reapers live. I find that way too risky. And Synthesis is not an option to me. But that's just me anyway.

 

Maybe the Crucible was designed by the previous cycles to destroy all synthetics. Maybe they specifically designed it because each cycle had their problems with synthetics and it was convinient to also get them besides the Reapers. Or maybe it is simply a byproduct when dealing with the Reapers.

Again, we can only speculate. Since we don't know how exactly the Crucible works, why it's working the way it works and how the overall damage changes when it is significantly damaged, that's all we have

I get wanting more answers, but sometimes we just don't get the answers and like you said, will cause your head to spin. It's the same in real life. So at some point it might be best to not ask these questions anymore since we know there won't be a definitive answer anyway. Speculating is fun and throwing in ideas is very interesting to see how stuff might work, but ultimately, it's just that. We won't get any confirmation.

[Dantriges]

Yeah the whole "no one knows what it does" idea is rather funny.

So the blueprints survived in exact detail over who knows how many cycles but the first page with the project description got cut?

 

 

Countless different species obtained and made contributions to the design over the course of millions of years,

 

Yeah let´s add something to it.

Inusannon scientist 1: We should add the ability to make milkshakes

Inusannon scientist 2: What? Why?

Inusannon scientist 1: Dunno, could be useful, we don´t know what it´s supposed to do anyways.

Inusannon scientist 2: What possible purpose could a milkshaker have?

Inusannon scientist 1: We are aliens, stop thinking like you are human, a species that doesn´t exist yet. Milkshakes are essential and important for our body chemistry . No you hairless ape reading this, don´t think about it.

 

This map is probably the same: Oh a map that shows every Reaper in the galaxy, slap it on adapter 23743 right beside the Inusannon milkshaker, the Xitxit death ray and the Klesch music synthesizer (in case it needs to sing like the Rachni).

 

Oh, optimized Eezo capacitors? Yeah sounds good, Advanced AI relays, put them over there. 15 kilometers of advanced power relays? There should be no problem in rewiring the whole energy grid. We already hooked up these large fuelpods right there and have to rewire the whole thing anyways. Let´s hope that our modifications don´t result in the crucible not working.  Reaper heart? Yeah could be useful to power the whole thing.

 

 

At some point in the past, contributors to the Crucible's design realized that it required a means to massively amplify its energy in order to be effective. The Citadel possesses this capability, and so was incorporated into the schematics.

 

Hm ok. Did they actually know that Catalyst is holokid.

 

 

The Catalyst describes the Crucible as little more than a crude but effective/adaptive power source. In combination with the Citadel and the mass relays, however, it can release tremendous amounts of energy throughout the galaxy.

 

So no one ever realized they were building a huge reactor or capacitor with some addons slapped on  and a plug for the Citadel?

Rather funny that it´s central component is a Reaper heart in case you destroyed the base. I thought that it´s core function should have a label like "This is important, don´t meddle."

[Vanilka]

@fraggleblabla

 

You know, you give a lot of really good ideas how this thing could've been handled and about the possible explanations, like the previous cycles building the Crucible specifically to kill synthetics. I don't know how that could be done but it would be an explanation and that's important. The thing is, I shouldn't have to guess and make up explanations in the first place. Of course, not everything needs to be explained, but I feel like it shouldn't leave me totally confused, guessing and wanting tons of answers, either. That's really unfortunate.

 

Nevertheless, from discussions on this forum, and this thread specifically, I can see that we all have our views of it and different problems or favourite parts of it, and that's fine in my book. On the other hand, I do wish some of the things you suggested were used in the game because those are all very good ideas and they would make so much more sense of the ending. Personally, I still don't like the idea of a random omnipotent character getting inserted at the very end of the game to just have a conversation about how to finish the game, but I'd definitely hate it less with your ideas included. Now... how do I make BW hire you?

[Vanilka]

Yeah the whole "no one knows what it does" idea is rather funny.
So the blueprints survived in exact detail over who knows how many cycles but the first page with the project description got cut?
 
Yeah let´s add something to it.
Inusannon scientist 1: We should add the ability to make milkshakes
Inusannon scientist 2: What? Why?
Inusannon scientist 1: Dunno, could be useful, we don´t know what it´s supposed to do anyways.
Inusannon scientist 2: What possible purpose could a milkshaker have?
Inusannon scientist 1: We are aliens, stop thinking like you are human, a species that doesn´t exist yet. Milkshakes are essential and important for our body chemistry . No you hairless ape, reading this, don´t think about it.
 
This map is probably the same: Oh a map that shows every Reaper in the galaxy, slap it on adapter 23743 right beside the Inusannon milkshaker, the Xitxit death ray and the Klesch music synthesizer (in case it needs to sing like the Rachni).
 
Oh, optimized Eezo capacitors? Yeah sounds good, Advanced AI relays, put them over there. 15 kilometers of advanced power relays? There should be no problem in rewiring the whole energy grid. We already hooked up these large fuelpods right there and have to rewire the whole thing anyways. Let´s hope that our modifications didn´t result in the crucible not working.  Reaper heart? Yeah could be useful to power the whole thing.

You know the feeling when you want to laugh so bad you skip right to crying? Yeah... 

[fraggle]

@fraggleblabla

 

You know, you give a lot of really good ideas how this thing could've been handled and about the possible explanations, like the previous cycles building the Crucible specifically to kill synthetics. I don't know how that could be done but it would be an explanation and that's important. The thing is, I shouldn't have to guess and make up explanations in the first place. Of course, not everything needs to be explained, but I feel like it shouldn't leave me totally confused, guessing and wanting tons of answers, either. That's really unfortunate.

 

Nevertheless, from discussions on this forum, and this thread specifically, I can see that we all have our views of it and different problems or favourite parts of it, and that's fine in my book. On the other hand, I do wish some of the things you suggested were used in the game because those are all very good ideas and they would make so much more sense of the ending. Personally, I still don't like the idea of a random omnipotent character getting inserted at the very end of the game to just have a conversation about how to finish the game, but I'd definitely hate it less with your ideas included. Now... how do I make BW hire you?

 

Wow, you're too kind! But maybe I just also try to come up with stuff because I want the ending to make sense, haha.

Oh well, I guess in the end, BW got what they wanted, speculations from everyone

But you're right, we all deal different with it, some don't have problems with unanswered questions, others have massive problems with it. I really enjoyed discussing stuff with you, we always kept it civil and some cool questions came out of it

But... unfortunately I guess we're stuck in an eternal loop if we attempt to answer some more

[Dantriges]

After Chronos:

Hackett comes to the lead engineers of Project Crucible.

Hackett: Our salvage teams have found something useful for the project.

Engineers: Oh that´s nice. What is it?

Holo switches on, hackett raises his arms and says: RRReaper hearttt!

Eng: Uh, well that´s nice but what´s it for?

H. Cerberus used it to power their station and the output is a lot higher than usual fusion reactors.

Eng: Yeah yeah but we already finished that part, the power source is in the middle of that ...thing. And we would have to make adjustments.

H: Rip it out and stuff this one in.

Eng: But, but, you want to set course for earth tomorrow?

H: I want it done tomorrow.

Eng: What? How? Why? Eh this is...

H: No matter what the cost.

Eng: That´s not a matter of...

H: Hackett out

E: Are you kidding, you are in the same room as us.

H: See me moving out. Done tomorrow, remember.

[Vanilka]

I really enjoyed discussing stuff with you, we always kept it civil and some cool questions came out of it

 

Same here!

[Goodmongo]

Wow, you're too kind! But maybe I just also try to come up with stuff because I want the ending to make sense, haha.

Oh well, I guess in the end, BW got what they wanted, speculations from everyone

But you're right, we all deal different with it, some don't have problems with unanswered questions, others have massive problems with it. I really enjoyed discussing stuff with you, we always kept it civil and some cool questions came out of it

But... unfortunately I guess we're stuck in an eternal loop if we attempt to answer some more

 

 

Speculation is fine but one common theme is why didn't the AI (catalyst) listen to Shepard and understand that things are different and therefore offer a different solution.  I hear this complaint very often.

 

I would like to counter this.  How many times are any of us in a debate and we present facts.  yet the other side simply refuses to believe us and refuses to change their position?  I bet it happens all the time.

 

So why must the catalyst AI listen to Shepard?  Why must it trust Shepard?  Even if there is supporting evidence that doesn't mean it must agree and therefore must offer alternatives.

 

BW wanted to make you pick from these choices.  The fact that many think none of them are 'good' enough is not relevant outside of their personal tastes.  I think that if BW made one of the options so enticing then everyone would pick it and that would defeat the point of trying to make the ending choice something to actually think about.

 

So no John Wayne endings where the cowboy rides off into the sunset with Grace Kelly.  

[Killdren88]

Despite what we all think, Edi and the Geth are only there to make Destroy less appealing. It really bums me out they have to be punished for the Reaper's crimes.

[fraggle]

Speculation is fine but one common theme is why didn't the AI (catalyst) listen to Shepard and understand that things are different and therefore offer a different solution.  I hear this complaint very often.

 

I would like to counter this.  How many times are any of us in a debate and we present facts.  yet the other side simply refuses to believe us and refuses to change their position?  I bet it happens all the time.

 

So why must the catalyst AI listen to Shepard?  Why must it trust Shepard?  Even if there is supporting evidence that doesn't mean it must agree and therefore must offer alternatives.

 

BW wanted to make you pick from these choices.  The fact that many think none of them are 'good' enough is not relevant outside of their personal tastes.  I think that if BW made one of the options so enticing then everyone would pick it and that would defeat the point of trying to make the ending choice something to actually think about.

 

So no John Wayne endings where the cowboy rides off into the sunset with Grace Kelly.  

 

I'm not sure why you quote me because nothing I said has to do with what you said, but anyways

Generally I agree with your post.

I also specifically agree with the bold part above. In the end though, this is a matter of taste, like you said.

And I personally love that we have to think about what our priorities are: do I want to save the synthetics? Do I want the Reapers gone no matter what? Should I use control to help the galaxy? It's these questions that everyone has to answer for themselves, but we also must accept that some still do not like the choices presented. Or their outcome.

[Goodmongo]

I'm not sure why you quote me because nothing I said has to do with what you said, but anyways

 

 

I was basically agreeing with you also.  LOL.

 

And yes, some still don't like it but it seems a HEA ending would be necessary for them to like it.

[Dantriges]

So why must the catalyst AI listen to Shepard?  Why must it trust Shepard?  Even if there is supporting evidence that doesn't mean it must agree and therefore must offer alternatives.

 

 

The question is, why must Shepard trust it? Ah it has nefariously trapped us into going along with it with this evil dialogue wheel. I wasn´t there when people asked for the refuse option but it seems to me they weren´t asking for a William Wallace style speech and a "That´s nice dude, now you die because you don´t like my ending and don´t try to shoot my beloved DMPC or I continue harvesting." Probably they wanted an alternate solution not involving starkid.

 

 

BW wanted to make you pick from these choices.  The fact that many think none of them are 'good' enough is not relevant outside of their personal tastes.  I think that if BW made one of the options so enticing then everyone would pick it and that would defeat the point of trying to make the ending choice something to actually think about.

 

Yes, they wanted you to pick from these choices. It´s just that they tried to force it and the rest that lead and surround these choices just became nonsense. You can ask your players to go along with it quite a few times. Some players accept it quite willingly in PnP RPGs. Most people are aware that DM/storytellers or in that case game designers can make mistakes in their plots. The problem IMO is that they shattered the suspense of disbelief of the players and the verisimilitude* of the setting so hard, it made no sense at all to quite a lot of players. I mean people came up with a "it´s just a dream" theory, nitpicking through all the unavoidable little inconsistencies within the setting to prove it.

 

 

*before the philosophers descend on me, it´s also a jargon term within RPG design theory.

[Goodmongo]

The question is, why must Shepard trust it? 

 

You don't have to.  You can easily ignore it and not go along with any choice.  But you lose the war and the harvest continues.  Or are you saying that this cycle should have defeated the Reapers?  If so where is the proof that they had the necessary military power to actually defeat the reapers?

 

Yes, they wanted you to pick from these choices. It´s just that they tried to force it and the rest that lead and surround these choices just became nonsense. You can ask your players to go along with it quite a few times. Some players accept it quite willingly in PnP RPGs. Most people are aware that DM/storytellers or in that case game designers can make mistakes in their plots. The problem IMO is that they shattered the suspense of disbelief of the players and the verisimilitude* of the setting so hard, it made no sense at all to quite a lot of players. I mean people came up with a "it´s just a dream" theory, nitpicking through all the unavoidable little inconsistencies within the setting to prove it. 

 

 

I can nitpick apart every single story, movie, book or game ever created.  There will always be holes.  Heck the biggest hole for me is this one.

 

1) Leviathan says each cycle creates a Reaper from each race.  So what is that 5 to maybe 10 Reapers tops per cycle?

2) Based on information from Jarvik and the game itself the Reapers suffer losses each cycle.  I think I saw or read about at least 8 Reapers dying in this cycle alone.

 

So how did the Reaper fleet get so big?  Look at cycle #1 and #2.  Leviathan says Harbinger was the Reaper from cycle one.  That means Harbinger alone with little to no other forces had to do the entire harvest in cycle two.  And so on.  It doesn't seem possible to have thousands of Reapers when they suffer losses like they did in the last two cycles.

 

But that is nit picking.  As I've said you have four choices now.  So you clearly have options.  But it seems maybe no HEA ending so people complain.

[themikefest]

1) Leviathan says each cycle creates a Reaper from each race.  So what is that 5 to maybe 10 Reapers tops per cycle?

 

It never said that. It said each cycle ends with a birth of a reaper

 

https://youtu.be/Pd9h0vUwza0?t=5m20s

[themikefest]

2) Based on information from Jarvik and the game itself the Reapers suffer losses each cycle.  I think I saw or read about at least 8 Reapers dying in this cycle alone.

 

Here's a post about how many they  lost during our cycle

 

Here's a post about how many they lost in past cycles

[Dantriges]

You don't have to.  You can easily ignore it and not go along with any choice.  But you lose the war and the harvest continues.  Or are you saying that this cycle should have defeated the Reapers?  If so where is the proof that they had the necessary military power to actually defeat the reapers?

 

...

 

But that is nit picking.  As I've said you have four choices now.  So you clearly have options.  But it seems maybe no HEA ending so people complain.

 

Well as mikefest pointed out, a conventional victory is impossible. There should be enough posts in this thread alone which go into more detail. And if you look closely you had two choices. Go along with him or fail because you didn´t like the original three endings.

[AlanC9]

I would like to counter this.  How many times are any of us in a debate and we present facts.  yet the other side simply refuses to believe us and refuses to change their position?  I bet it happens all the time.

Every day, on these boards.

[angol fear]

Well as mikefest pointed out, a conventional victory is impossible. There should be enough posts in this thread alone which go into more detail. And if you look closely you had two choices. Go along with him or fail because you didn´t like the original three endings.

It has nothing to do with liking or not the ending. Mass effect is about reaching a higher point of view, being beyond good and evil. Everytime people use a human point of view he fails to understand the ending. When people think that the catalyst lies (the game showed us us that they only do omission which is not a lie. People feel that it is a lie, but it's because they put their moral in the interaction. Makingthe synthetics being moral is like making animals being like men in Disney) they show that they don't understand the ending. Everytime people see the catalyst like an antagonist, they show that they didn't understand the ending.
Shepard in the end is here to make the player reach that level of understanding. Shepard "trust" the catalyst because he knows he doesn't lie. He also tries to convince him ("we'd rather keep our own form-No") but he knows we can't convince the most advanced AI in the galaxy. Shepard knows that there is no solution outside the catalyst choices.
People wanted to be able to refuse, Bioware created that possibilty where you don't fail (though the reapers finished their job in this cycle) thanks to Liara. If Bioware would have made a bad ending, the next cycle would not be saved.
I prefer the original ending but the only ending I like in the extended cut is refusal. You may see it as a defeat. Mass effect is about stopping the reapers and the player stops them in this one too. This choice isn't different from the other, the sacrifice is only bigger. This choice isn't a bad ending. Each choice is a matter of opinion.

In what you have written I can see that you didn't realise that choices are not freedom. When you are given a choice, it means that you have no freedom. It means that you are obliged to get a possibility given to you. The ending choice is the choice that create freedom, that make people free from the cycle where everyone (including the catalyst) is stuck. So there no "two choices", there are the choices given by the game. Every choice is a solution (that may not please).

[Dantriges]

The vast majority of players are in a problem solving mode in an RPG or thinking about what would my character do. And well the one thing I personally did was to get the players out of antagonistic mode. It´s rather hard to wax philsophically if people consider armed conflict as a solution.

 

There was no preparation which led to the decision or it was touched only barely. Or let´s say it this way, we weren´t ready. The galaxy built a device it didn´t understand, meeting the gatekeeper to ascenscion without being aware of his existence or his nature. We reached chokepoint to ascension by shooting the body horror cabinet of the antagonist who is also the gatekeeper and asking some virtual dude about the way.

 

Even Leviathan added another theme, hubris and how the mighty have fallen. They thought of themselves as being above the concerns of the others and suffered the consequences for it. How many themes do we have floating around now?

 

In the end you had nothing. No feeling that you were on the road to another level of understanding. You had no clue what you were doing and when you finally arrived in the higher sphere (thanks to a conveniently placed elevator, you got more questions).

 

-Is this dude trustworthy? Even if he can´t lie directly which is just an assumption based on nothing. We don´t know what an actual ASI will look like

-Is this AI actually working properly? This thing is running for a billion years and it´s an assumption with no evidence that it´s actually able to think logically or if its core programming is riddled with software blocks it accepts unquestionly and turns it totally bonkers. Some stuff the writers threw our way is that they subscribe to the Just because you´re an ASI doesn´t mean that you are able to change your purpose/core program.

-How does the unexplained (crucible) interact with the unknown(catalyst). Could be important, because it´s part of the setup leading to the question.

-How could we actually build the crucible and modify it and it´s still working?

-Why are we shooting at each other and why is time running out? Ah yes, the crucible shuts down, must be the AI because it´s a very specific amount of power leakage if it´s 

-Why is destroy totally acceptable when it´s the only option?

-And some rather lame stuff like "Uh well I radio in a shuttle and let Cortez shoot at this cable over there, after I boarded." It´s not like the emotionless AI should care if I die.

-Why did you actually let me up here?

-What´s this lifeforce and why isn´t the discovery of something which we could probably call soul or at least close enough to a soul a major plot point? Other scifi which used the concept showed it in season 1, onscreen and spent several episodes on it.

-Which theme are we in now? Oh transhumanism and ascension. Add it to the pile.

 

And we´ve seen no real examples of AIs going genocide, only organics. Also there are species which are rather unlikely to develop synthetic drones like the rachni. They have organic ones.

 

So IMO the foundation simply isn´t there and this makes the scene meaningless. And perhaps I am jaded but I´ve seen enough stuff in the RPG industry where people pulled this stunt and you later found out that there was lack of teamwork, rush job or some guy let the praise  go to his head. Oh and personal stuff. 

[fraggle]

-How does the unexplained (crucible) interact with the unknown(catalyst). Could be important, because it´s part of the setup leading to the question.

 

Hackett actually tells you at some point that their engineers (I think it was them) believe that the energy created by the Crucible is able to defeat the Reapers, so they must have dug into this energy topic at least a bit, maybe tested some things out.

Their question left is how to target the Reapers and only them, and that's where they think the Catalyst comes into play.

It's not like they are completely in the dark about how it works. Maybe the details are missing, but the basic understanding is there, I'd say.

The thing is, the other Cycles clearly knew more about everything, so we just might not be as advanced. The current cycle has no other choice anyway than to try this device, if they didn't they had already lost. It's said many times that this is an act of desperation.

In the long run, yes, maybe they could've studied the Crucible in more detail, like the Protheans apparently did, but then the longer they take the more people are harvested and the more people could be indoctrinated, like it happened with the Protheans.

 

-How could we actually build the crucible and modify it and it´s still working?

 

The important part is not the Crucible, but the Catalyst or Citadel in this case. Yes, they made modifications, but in the end only the energy part and how it will be dispersed is important. All modifications they made were mostly other things that didn't have to do anything with the energy the Crucible would generate, like for example fuel pods, kinetic barriers, radiation shielding, basically everything that could ensure a longer survival of the Crucible.

 

-Why is destroy totally acceptable when it´s the only option?

 

What do you mean here? Like in Low EMS? Because the Catalyst was changed by the Crucible and has to accept the new solution? It is more hostile towards you when only Destroy is available, which shows me it has to present you the option, but it also can't prevent you from using it.

 

-Why did you actually let me up here?

 

Maybe it was not the Catalyst's doing?
This is a question I've tried to answer myself over and over again and I can't find an ideal solution, it's rather meh, but what if there was some kind of chain reaction once the Crucible docked, sending its energy to this platform too to activate it in some way.

The other possibility is that the Catalyst is forced to act on this as well because a new solution must be found due to the Crucibles' docking. Other than that, I have nothing, haha.

Either way, this is not really satisfying, but maybe a very weak explanation.

 

And we´ve seen no real examples of AIs going genocide, only organics.

 

Well I could argue the geth would've been on their way, but I won't.

To me, this is exactly the theme the player has to look at with their own eyes. The Catalyst may present you its "facts" from all the years it existed, but you as the player have to decide if you want to believe this. It's your job to take its words for what they are and come up with your own reasoning. I saw many times that players used "but I just made peace between the quarians and the geth! I proved you wrong!", and their reasoning for the end choice is then driven by this.

Like angol said, all reasoning from players is valid. There is no right or wrong choice.

 

And about the trusting. What do you do in real life? If someone presented you "facts" and you had to make a choice, you would also not know if you can trust this. All you can do is follow your gut and pick an option. It doesn't really matter if you believe this person or not, because doing nothing results in nothing.

[dorktainian]

 It doesn't really matter if you believe this person or not, because doing nothing results in nothing.

So we're back to analysing cause and effect.

 

I always got the feeling someone else was pulling the strings, and that the crucible choice dictated whether or not the cycle continued, not just continuing by refusal.  Do you have the will to destroy the reapers?  If not then it's game over for us.  It happened to the protheans (synthesis - collectors).

 

Destroying the reapers by starjars own admission destroys the reapers.

I call that a win. With the Highest EMS shepard wakes up.  He/she survives.  Ergo the best ending.

 

But as it's your choice that determines whether the reapers live (bad) or die (good) then it really is a simple choice.

 

You just have to trust your initial instincts.  What did you go to the citadel to do?

[Dantriges]

Hackett actually tells you at some point that their engineers (I think it was them) believe that the energy created by the Crucible is able to defeat the Reapers, so they must have dug into this energy topic at least a bit, maybe tested some things out.
Their question left is how to target the Reapers and only them, and that's where they think the Catalyst comes into play.
It's not like they are completely in the dark about how it works. Maybe the details are missing, but the basic understanding is there, I'd say.

There are two other options. And "requires the enemy AI to work" isn´t some small detail. And well actually they know nothing. It generates huge amounts of power.To do what? Power without understanding how to use it, is meaningless.
 

The thing is, the other Cycles clearly knew more about everything, so we just might not be as advanced. The current cycle has no other choice anyway than to try this device, if they didn't they had already lost. It's said many times that this is an act of desperation.
In the long run, yes, maybe they could've studied the Crucible in more detail, like the Protheans apparently did, but then the longer they take the more people are harvested and the more people could be indoctrinated, like it happened with the Protheans.

It was a reply about this whole Shepard reaches a new level of understanding beyond "good and evil" as Angol Fear put it. There was no sign of progress on this road for the galaxy in form of the crucible which we slowly start to understand or for Shepard whose journey was through hordes of mooks with his gun and gathering friends. We had some small hints like the words essence dropped once or twice and there is a master behind this thing but without expanding the topics before the end.
 

The important part is not the Crucible, but the Catalyst or Citadel in this case. Yes, they made modifications, but in the end only the energy part and how it will be dispersed is important. All modifications they made were mostly other things that didn't have to do anything with the energy the Crucible would generate, like for example fuel pods, kinetic barriers, radiation shielding, basically everything that could ensure a longer survival of the Crucible.

 
Advanced power relays, rrreaper heart. You can rip out the crucible´s power source after Chronos and slap in a new power core. About the importance of the Crucible, see below.
 

What do you mean here? Like in Low EMS? Because the Catalyst was changed by the Crucible and has to accept the new solution? It is more hostile towards you when only Destroy is available, which shows me it has to present you the option, but it also can't prevent you from using it.

Maybe it was not the Catalyst's doing?
This is a question I've tried to answer myself over and over again and I can't find an ideal solution, it's rather meh, but what if there was some kind of chain reaction once the Crucible docked, sending its energy to this platform too to activate it in some way.
The other possibility is that the Catalyst is forced to act on this as well because a new solution must be found due to the Crucibles' docking. Other than that, I have nothing, haha.
Either way, this is not really satisfying, but maybe a very weak explanation.
 
Well I could argue the geth would've been on their way, but I won't.
To me, this is exactly the theme the player has to look at with their own eyes. The Catalyst may present you its "facts" from all the years it existed, but you as the player have to decide if you want to believe this. It's your job to take its words for what they are and come up with your own reasoning. I saw many times that players used "but I just made peace between the quarians and the geth! I proved you wrong!", and their reasoning for the end choice is then driven by this.
Like angol said, all reasoning from players is valid. There is no right or wrong choice.

So much for the important part is the energy thing only. It´s quite important what the crucible does with his "changing of the variables." It changes quite a lot about the Catalyst , his role and the perception of what he says.
Is it...
...using the catalyst as a mouth piece and he isn´t really there any,ore
...is it controlling it for a limited amount of time and the Catalyst actually doesn´t believe in this choice thing at all
...just a simple power source and the Catalyst realized "uh, I could do synthesis with it and if Shep destroys me, I am bored anyways."
...a factory default reset built by a Leviathan thrall race which is getting rid of some malicious code inserted by leaviathan extremists who hated the their empires reliance on thrall races.
...similar to the rewriting of the Geth Heretics, correcting a runtime calclulation and the Catalyst´s conclusions are actually wrong because of buggy code.
 

And about the trusting. What do you do in real life? If someone presented you "facts" and you had to make a choice, you would also not know if you can trust this. All you can do is follow your gut and pick an option. It doesn't really matter if you believe this person or not, because doing nothing results in nothing.

Well give me your adress and bank account numbers please. I need them to save the world. Really, the world needs saving. Just look around. I have the perfect solution for it. Let me guess, you don´t trust me enough? How often do you go along with something presented by a person who was actively antagonistic towards you 10 minutes ago. Most people try to gather enough information, ask people they trust, read reviews or whatever if they have to make a bigger decision, especially if they are in unfamiliar territory.
Ok in a situation like "Make your decision, I have a gun pointed at your friends and I am willing to use it," I would probably go along. Hm, this sounds familiar, ah the catalyst telling Shepard what to do with refuse as the gun.

[fraggle]

There are two other options. And "requires the enemy AI to work" isn´t some small detail. And well actually they know nothing. It generates huge amounts of power.To do what? Power without understanding how to use it, is meaningless.

 

I really don't get why it's so important to know what exactly the Crucible does, in-game I mean. When it's been stated countless times that the Reapers cannot be beaten conventionally and this device is your only chance, would you actually not try to build it in fear this might go wrong? When the outlook of that is death regardless?

I mean, I do agree it'd be nice to know more, sure, but we're speaking in terms of what additional info the player would've liked to know. But if BW decided that's how they tell their story, that's it. It's a bit pointless to wish for more explanation, even though I understand your points of course.

And I still don't believe the Crucible team knew nothing at all. They learned bits and pieces as they progressed, just the bigger picture was missing. But that changes when Vendetta confirms the Citadel is the Catalyst.

Also, do they really need the AI itself? It could've been not present and Shepard could still use the Crucible because it docked at the Citadel and disperses the energy via the arms. Shepard may not understand what's going on because no one explains it, but it would work without the AI I believe, since the Catalyst (and also Vendetta before) explicitly states that the Crucible in combination with the Citadel and the mass relays can release its energy. The AI is not really a part of this process, or is it? Correct me if I'm wrong or overlooked something.

And "to do what" with the power was stated. Use it against Reapers of course

 

Advanced power relays, rrreaper heart. You can rip out the crucible´s power source after Chronos and slap in a new power core. About the importance of the Crucible, see below.

 

Yeah, but what's the problem with that? They use a core to replace another core. Whether they did test it to some extent, we don't know. I don't remember Hackett saying anything about it, but I will keep an eye out once I get there in my current run.

The advanced power relays are optional though. If you never side with Xen, you don't get them.

 

So much for the important part is the energy thing only. It´s quite important what the crucible does with his "changing of the variables." It changes quite a lot about the Catalyst , his role and the perception of what he says.

Is it...
...using the catalyst as a mouth piece and he isn´t really there any,ore
...is it controlling it for a limited amount of time and the Catalyst actually doesn´t believe in this choice thing at all
...just a simple power source and the Catalyst realized "uh, I could do synthesis with it and if Shep destroys me, I am bored anyways."
...a factory default reset built by a Leviathan thrall race which is getting rid of some malicious code inserted by leaviathan extremists who hated the their empires reliance on thrall races.
...similar to the rewriting of the Geth Heretics, correcting a runtime calclulation and the Catalyst´s conclusions are actually wrong because of buggy code.

 

Well, we know what the changing the variables does. New possibilities for everyone! Jokes aside, I don't believe the Catalyst is gone. More like from where it actually sits it can't to anything with the options. Someone in another thread mentioned that it's quite simple: since the Catalyst presenting itself to us is just a hologram, but the choices can only be made in physical form, is why the Catalyst says it cannot make these choices happen.

And yet again, does it really make a difference how the Crucible does what it does and what the Catalyst tells you? Whether you know how it works, or believe the Catalyst's words or not doesn't matter, you still have to deal with the problem at hand, still have to disperse the energy somehow (ok, minus Refuse obviously), and that's why I say it's the most important part.

 

Ok in a situation like "Make your decision, I have a gun pointed at your friends and I am willing to use it," I would probably go along. Hm, this sounds familiar, ah the catalyst telling Shepard what to do with refuse as the gun.

 

I thought it was clear we'd be in a situation like this, just like in the game

[Goodmongo]

In what you have written I can see that you didn't realise that choices are not freedom. When you are given a choice, it means that you have no freedom. 

 

By that definition there is no freedom ever.  None in any game and none in life.  Everything is about choices.  That is the weirdest definition of freedom that I've ever come across.

 

 

I really don't get why it's so important to know what exactly the Crucible does, in-game I mean. When it's been stated countless times that the Reapers cannot be beaten conventionally and this device is your only chance, would you actually not try to build it in fear this might go wrong? 

 

I recall entries that it takes on average 4 dreadnoughts to kill one Reaper, provided they get within range.  Someone did a count and I think they said there were around 1000 capital Reapers at Earth alone.  So while possible to win conventionally the current cycle was not in position to do it.

 

I've always thought that a future cycle was warned and it include the military strategy necessary to win.  So a future cycle built the proper military ships and used the right tactics to win conventionally.