718 réponses à ce sujet

[angol fear]

By that definition there is no freedom ever.  None in any game and none in life.  Everything is about choices.  That is the weirdest definition of freedom that I've ever come across.

 

There is freedom as long as you are not obliged to choose. In video games, there is no freedom. People who think the opposite are just in an illusion. That definition comes from philosophy. Choice is determinism. Mass Effect understands it very well (the notion of choice has to be linked with the "fate" theme in the game).

[Goodmongo]

There is freedom as long as you are not obliged to choose. In video games, there is no freedom. People who think the opposite are just in an illusion. That definition comes from philosophy. Choice is determinism. Mass Effect understands it very well (the notion of choice has to be linked with the "fate" theme in the game).

 

In that I agree and thank for the further explanation.  But besides picking from the 3 options you can refuse the choice.  So in this situation using your refined definition there is no way BW could ever offer freedom.  Or am I missing something?

[Dantriges]

Also, do they really need the AI itself? It could've been not present and Shepard could still use the Crucible because it docked at the Citadel and disperses the energy via the arms. Shepard may not understand what's going on because no one explains it, but it would work without the AI I believe, since the Catalyst (and also Vendetta before) explicitly states that the Crucible in combination with the Citadel and the mass relays can release its energy. The AI is not really a part of this process, or is it? Correct me if I'm wrong or overlooked something.

Well we need the catalyst. The catalyst is according to the amoral AI, the amoral AI.
 

And "to do what" with the power was stated. Use it against Reapers of course

 
Well, as we found out, what it´s used for, is actually a choice.
 

Yeah, but what's the problem with that? They use a core to replace another core. Whether they did test it to some extent, we don't know. I don't remember Hackett saying anything about it, but I will keep an eye out once I get there in my current run.
The advanced power relays are optional though. If you never side with Xen, you don't get them.

 
I took a (hopefully) funny stab at it a few posts above. Well the point was, you said we only added stuff at the periphery and nothing that affected its core function. Its core function is providing a huge amount of power (according to our friendly clippy app, the starkid).  At this point you meddle in the core function.
 

And yet again, does it really make a difference how the Crucible does what it does and what the Catalyst tells you? Whether you know how it works, or believe the Catalyst's words or not doesn't matter, you still have to deal with the problem at hand, still have to disperse the energy somehow (ok, minus Refuse obviously), and that's why I say it's the most important part.

Well, if we want to make a meaningful choice we should perhaps know a bit more what we are actually doing and who exactly is presenting this choice and in what state of mind. 
 
 

I thought it was clear we'd be in a situation like this, just like in the game

Yes, silly that people expected something else.

[Abalone]

Well, if we want to make a meaningful choice we should perhaps know a bit more what we are actually doing and who exactly is presenting this choice and in what state of mind.

In the few decades of our existence we have to make thousands of decisions (also meaningful ones) without knowing every little detail. That's life. Deal with it.

[Vanilka]

Dantriges, remember when you joked about Hackett forcing the engineers about the Reaper heart like a page or two ago? I think that's a good example how funny it all is. You go to Cerberus HQ where you find the remains of the Reaper baby and from there everybody heads right to Earth together with the Crucible. How did the Reaper heart actually manage to become an active component of the Crucible during that short time? I mean, they probably had to salvage it, then study it, then somehow install it somewhere despite the Crucible having been finished at that point. All that during, what, a few hours...? The galaxy has some badass engineers, I guess. Perfect example of how much thought and care went into the writing...

[angol fear]

In that I agree and thank for the further explanation. But besides picking from the 3 options you can refuse the choice. So in this situation using your refined definition there is no way BW could ever offer freedom. Or am I missing something?

That's it. Even refusal is a choice and the choice is not freedom. But this last decision leads to freedom. The cycle has to be broken to get to freedom. The choice itself is part of the cycle but it is the element that can break the cycle. Once the cycle is broken we are supposed to be free. That's a reason why the original ending doesn't tell what happens after the choice. The player is free to interpret events, to imagine and make the story be finally his story. During the entire game no one is free (Shepard, the reapers, the catalyst, the player) and narration is clearly determinism. The last choice is what gives us freedom.

Ps: the "meta" aspect of the writing becomes explicit with the last scene, the old guy talking to the kid. This scene shows that they really were thinking about the relation between the content and the form, between narration and fate/determinism.

[themikefest]

Dantriges, remember when you joked about Hackett forcing the engineers about the Reaper heart like a page or two ago? I think that's a good example how funny it all is. You go to Cerberus HQ where you find the remains of the Reaper baby and from there everybody heads right to Earth together with the Crucible. How did the Reaper heart actually manage to become an active component of the Crucible during that short time? I mean, they probably had to salvage it, then study it, then somehow install it somewhere despite the Crucible having been finished at that point. All that during, what, a few hours...? The galaxy has some badass engineers, I guess. Perfect example of how much thought and care went into the writing...

Even then the heart or the brain, if you save the collector base in ME2, makes no difference if your ems is above 1750

[Vanilka]

Even then the heart or the brain, if you save the collector base in ME2, makes no difference if your ems is above 1750

 

That's odd. Does it make a difference if it's below 1750? I haven't tried a low EMS run yet. I mean, it doesn't push your EMS higher otherwise or something?

[Dantriges]

In the few decades of our existence we have to make thousands of decisions (also meaningful ones) without knowing every little detail. That's life. Deal with it.

 

I didn´t ask for 100% detail. There is probably no decision in life where you know every detail. How about enough to make a decision like curing the genophage or not. Is there an actual argument hidden in there? And "that´s life, deal with it?" Really?

 

Dantriges, remember when you joked about Hackett forcing the engineers about the Reaper heart like a page or two ago? I think that's a good example how funny it all is. You go to Cerberus HQ where you find the remains of the Reaper baby and from there everybody heads right to Earth together with the Crucible. How did the Reaper heart actually manage to become an active component of the Crucible during that short time? I mean, they probably had to salvage it, then study it, then somehow install it somewhere despite the Crucible having been finished at that point. All that during, what, a few hours...? The galaxy has some badass engineers, I guess. Perfect example of how much thought and care went into the writing...

 

Yeah I remember. I didn´t want to point it out too obviously because I am pretty sure the retort would be "nitpicker" or "how about writing a plot like this for a game yourself."

 

 

Even then the heart or the brain, if you save the collector base in ME2, makes no difference if your ems is above 1750

 

Well it´s more about the sillyness anyways. Oh yeah let´s put in a doublepower power source into this device we don´t understand on the eve of the final battle and hope it doen´t overload some vital area when switched on.

 

Posted it here:

http://forum.bioware...ing/?p=19545786

 

and here

http://forum.bioware...ing/?p=19546086

[Vanilka]

Yeah I remember. I didn´t want to point it out too obviously because I am pretty sure the retort would be "nitpicker" or "how about writing a plot like this for a game yourself."

 

Those are my favourite arguments next to "It's just a video game!" and "Who cares?"

[GreyLycanTrope]

That's odd. Does it make a difference if it's below 1750? I haven't tried a low EMS run yet. I mean, it doesn't push your EMS higher otherwise or something?

Depending on which one you have either Destroy or Control will be your only option. These will also be the lowest EMS versions Destory ends up killing everything on the Earth in the process.

 

Well it´s more about the sillyness anyways. Oh yeah let´s put in a doublepower power source into this device we don´t understand on the eve of the final battle and hope it doen´t overload some vital area when switched on.

 

Posted it here:

http://forum.bioware...ing/?p=19545786

 

and here

http://forum.bioware...ing/?p=19546086

 

 They used a lot of duct tape to make it happen.

[themikefest]

That's odd. Does it make a difference if it's below 1750? I haven't tried a low EMS run yet. I mean, it doesn't push your EMS higher otherwise or something?

If the base is destroyed in ME2 and ems is below 1750, destroy will be the only option 

 

If the base is saved in ME2 and ems is below 1750, control will be the only option

 

Heart gives 100 war assets. Brain gives 110 war assets

[Goodmongo]

Those are my favourite arguments next to "It's just a video game!" and "Who cares?"

 

You left out:

 

It's just a movie.

It's just a book.

It's just a TV show.

It is what it is.

 

Or these from parents, police, judges or authority figures:

 

Because I said so.

You don't need to know why just do it.

Follow this order or face the consequences.

That's for me to worry about and not you.

It's an order.

 

Or my favorite:

 

If you love me you'll do it and not ask why.

[Vanilka]

Depending on which one you have either Destroy or Control will be your only option. These will also be the lowest EMS versions Destory ends up killing everything on the Earth in the process.

 

If the base is destroyed in ME2 and ems is below 1750, destroy will be the only option 

 

If the base is saved in ME2 and ems is below 1750, control will be the only option

 

Heart gives 100 war assets. Brain gives 110 war assets

 

Thank you! I didn't know it was possible to only get left with Control. Interesting.

[themikefest]

Thank you! I didn't know it was possible to only get left with Control. Interesting.

With low ems like that for control, everyone on the Normandy survives. The difference between low ems control and high ems control is the time it will take to rebuild. Of course both squadmates survive the beam run if ems is above 1900

[Vanilka]

You left out:

 

It's just a movie.

It's just a book.

It's just a TV show.

It is what it is.

 

Or these from parents, police, judges or authority figures:

 

Because I said so.

You don't need to know why just do it.

Follow this order or face the consequences.

That's for me to worry about and not you.

It's an order.

 

Or my favorite:

 

If you love me you'll do it and not ask why.

 

Well, what do you know, we can actually agree on something. None of those are indeed excuses for bad or careless writing. Especially not for a medium that its authors want to be taken seriously.

[Abalone]

I didn´t ask for 100% detail. There is probably no decision in life where you know every detail. How about enough to make a decision like curing the genophage or not. Is there an actual argument hidden in there? And "that´s life, deal with it?" Really?

Sorry, sounded harsher than it was meant to be - it was just meant as a set phrase.
Hm, strange, but I never felt "under-informed" (english is not my native language, don't know if that makes sense :-p) - I talked with Wrex, I learned about Krogans through the lore, I talked with Mordin ... and when the time came to make the decision I thought about my Shep, how he/she thinks about aliens in general, which image about Krogans he/she might have developed so far, if he/she is more Paragon or Renegade - and made the decision. Done. I never felt like "Man, couldn't Bioware give us more informations?" And which informations should that be? We've got plenty, in my opinion. Sorry if you already mentioned it somewhere.
And again - I take the situation as it is. I have to decide something with almost no knowledge about the case? Ok, that's the situation, deal with it ;-) In real life I also can't say "Yeah, I know, I MUST decide now, in this moment, RIGHT NOW - but please, I feel uncomfortable as I would like to know some more facts ..." No time left, baby, take what you have and make your choice. Even if you feel like **** afterwards 'cause you have no clue what will happen next - if your decision was good or leads to a disaster.

edit: In fact, for me that's part of my enjoyment of Mass Effect - I was totally shocked when I caused Talis suicide, I NEVER expected something like this could happen. But at the same time I thought "wow, yeah, this is what makes ME so special, it makes me feel absolutely bad". Something that I would never experience in Skyrim, for example.

[Dantriges]

Ups sorry. I meant that we had enough information to make a decision about the genophage, perhaps not as much as desired but enough to form an opinion.

 

 

"Yeah, I know, I MUST decide now, in this moment, RIGHT NOW - but please, I feel uncomfortable as I would like to know some more facts ..." No time left, baby, take what you have and make your choice. Even if you feel like **** afterwards 'cause you have no clue what will happen next

 

That´s one point where the scene gets wobbly. Why isn´t there more time? The catalyst is there, you are there, the only reason you have to decide now is starkid saying "move." Well he wants something from you after all. The crucible can be repaired, the Reapers can continue harvesting whenever they like anyways, even Shep bleeding on the floor is easily solvable with some medigel.People who lost limbs survived after an application after all. This "there is no time" is rather questionable if you look closer or at least there is no real explanation. Starkid said his solution is no longer viable, yeah ok, it´s still not viable tomorrow, killing the galactic fleet won´t change that.

[Abalone]

Hm, maybe I don't understand you right ... for me there's no time 'cause the longer I wait the more people die.

Do I misunderstand you?

[Dantriges]

Yes, more people die, because of the Reapers, whose leader is actually standing right in front of you and who seemingly wants somethig from you, in case synthesis is available. Well you can´t even ask for a ceasefire. I know it´s a human thing to stop shooting each other as long as you are talking over things.

[Vanilka]

Yes, more people die, because of the Reapers, whose leader is actually standing right in front of you and who seemingly wants somethig from you, in case synthesis is available. Well you can´t even ask for a ceasefire. I know it´s a human thing to stop shooting each other as long as you are talking over things.

 

This is actually something that I don't understand, either. Does the Catalyst control the Reapers or doesn't it? Did the Reapers snap out of its control so the Catalyst can't tell them what to do? What's the difference between having the Reapers destroyed and having the Reapers stop fighting? Wouldn't the latter make more sense? If you pick Destroy, it's not a solution to the conflict that the Catalyst presents you with, so what's the point? Especially when the Catalyst is so sure that the conflict will soon arise again? Okay, let's say that Destroy is added by the Crucible, which is nothing but a speculation, but I still don't understand what the Catalyst is good for if it doesn't control the Reapers and it doesn't control the Citadel, either. Of course, you can always argue that the Crucible stops the Catalyst from functioning properly, but at this point, you're inventing the narrative yourself and that way you can explain pretty much everything, which is not your job as a player.

[Goodmongo]

Or a ceasefire takes time to put into place.  Besides doesn't a ceasefire require both sides to stop shooting?  So why would the catalyst order just their side?  Legion did that and the Quarians opened fire on the ship and almost destroyed Shepard.  Can't trust organics is their motto.

 

EDIT:

 

Besides if we want to 'nitpick' then why does Liara wear her gas mask when running to the beam (final scenes) yet earlier on Earth she doesn't need it?  

 

And why don't we just place some 20 MT nukes around as huge IED's to destroy the Reapers?  There are many things we can say but in the end "it's just a game".  Yes I know people hate hearing that.

[Monica21]

And why don't we just place some 20 MT nukes around as huge IED's to destroy the Reapers?

 

Uh, because then you just destroy your world for the Reapers and save them a lot of work?

[Dantriges]

Because even in the best case if you really try to get their numbers down, the Reapers outnumber you 10 to 1 and it´s quite likely that they outnumber you 100 to 1.  Hackett knows that this war cannot be won conventionally and it seems the Reapers drove the point home at this point that the fleet is barely holding its ground. This isn´t Rannoch where the Quarians dealt the Geth a severe blow before Shep even arrived. The Catalyst doesn´t need to trust the organics, when the Reapers got them already over the barrel. They spent several hundred years harvesting the protheans, so investing one day or so isn´t a big loss. And from the perspective of the  starkid it doesn´t matter much. He already told you where to find the destroy all reapers button. You may not believe him but he already offered total destruction.

 

He has access to the sum of all knowledge of previous cycles. He doesn´t get organics but well can´t he make a quick search about the topic "is it advantageous to not shoot someone´s friends/comrades/fellow soldiers when you want him to listen to you." I think most species appreciate it if you don´t go "Hey, listen to me *bam bam*  my solution doesn´t work anymore, *lasered* we have to find another solution *Brute munching on marine bones.* Yeah, the off switch is over there *cruiser ripped apart* but listen, this synthesis thing is a lot better.

[Abalone]

but at this point, you're inventing the narrative yourself and that way you can explain pretty much everything, which is not your job as a player.

Here I disagree - what about all the headcanon? Or what is with games like - I mentioned it before - Skyrim, which don't take you as much by the hand to guide you as ME or DA? That has always been what attracted me to TES - that there's so much room for own thoughts and ideas. And the same thing I do in Bioware Games - I fill the gaps with my own ideas.