718 réponses à ce sujet

[MrFob]

Yeah, I hated the Sovereign speech as well, because it was too confident, but at the same time she didn't really want to know more. Basically, just overconfident threats, I would've liked something else.

 

The scene at the end didn't bother me as much too, because I just thought it goes well with how run down and desperate she is, at the brink of death, without her mission being completed. It's basically one last try to end this and you don't have the luxury of being overly confident and confrontational, especially when you know you're going to die very soon & that it might just all be for nothing. That's why I really can't understand the refuse ending, it's just too much of a f*uck you after all this sacrifice.

 

Yes, Shepard's responses to Sovereign were too cocky and not inquisitive enough but IMO, the catalyst conversation went too far in the other direction (though it does get a little bit better with the EC). Sure, Shepard is injured, probably close to death but isn't that exactly the point where s/he should muster their last bit of strength? I get the feeling that Shepard is broken. Whatever BS the star kid spouts, Shepard basically just goes "if you say so".

"So ... the Illusive Man was right after all." WHAT? My Shepard just convinced the guy to shoot himself 5 minutes ago. Half the time Shepard just says stuff like "Uh-huh". And even when s/he does offer some counter argument like the whole "without hope we might as well be machines", it's just voiced so lame that I almost fall asleep listening to it. Now I am sure the VAs were directed this way because we know that both, Meer and Hale can be much more passionate and forceful if they want to. My guess is that the voice directors wanted to convey the fact that Shep is at the end of their strength but frankly, this was exactly the wrong point in the story to do it. I mean, this is the intellectual boss battle against the main antagonist of the trilogy and Shepard doesn't only loose, no, it's like s/he doesn't even put up a fight and challenges the star kids contrived arguments. That IMO is one of the most grievous mistakes of the entire ending, not the choices, not Shepard's death, not even the 3 color thing that we had before the EC, it is Shepard's apparent loss of willpower, that really gets me every time I hear this dialogue.

Why do you think people love the refusal speech so much? It's certainly not because of the content. In fact, the content is completely stupid: "I will die knowing I did everything in my power to stop you"? Yea right, except using the weapon that we built throughout the entire game and the trigger of which was just handed to you. What Shepard actually says there is BS. But this moment is pretty much the only time during this entire dialogue where Shepard actually stops hunching their shoulders and takes a stand. Quite literally, look how Shep's posture changes during that last bit in the refusal choice. Apparently s/he can stand up straight but s/he didn't before. Why? Because Shepard apparently was beaten and accepts that s/he has to go along with the catalyst.

Now maybe that was even true, maybe Shepard really didn't have another choice but my issue is that s/he doesn't even give it a good try, especially because the catalyst's arguments have more holes tan Shepard's armor at this point.

[Rhaenyss]

Yes, Shepard's responses to Sovereign were too cocky and not inquisitive enough but IMO, the catalyst conversation went too far in the other direction (though it does get a little bit better with the EC). Sure, Shepard is injured, probably close to death but isn't that exactly the point where s/he should muster their last bit of strength? I get the feeling that Shepard is broken. Whatever BS the star kid spouts, Shepard basically just goes "if you say so".

"So ... the Illusive Man was right after all." WHAT? My Shepard just convinced the guy to shoot himself 5 minutes ago. Half the time Shepard just says stuff like "Uh-huh". And even when s/he does offer some counter argument like the whole "without hope we might as well be machines", it's just voiced so lame that I almost fall asleep listening to it. Now I am sure the VAs were directed this way because we know that both, Meer and Hale can be much more passionate and forceful if they want to. My guess is that the voice directors wanted to convey the fact that Shep is at the end of their strength but frankly, this was exactly the wrong point in the story to do it. I mean, this is the intellectual boss battle against the main antagonist of the trilogy and Shepard doesn't only loose, no, it's like s/he doesn't even put up a fight and challenges the star kids contrived arguments. That IMO is one of the most grievous mistakes of the entire ending, not the choices, not Shepard's death, not even the 3 color thing that we had before the EC, it is Shepard's apparent loss of willpower, that really gets me every time I hear this dialogue.

Why do you think people love the refusal speech so much? It's certainly not because of the content. In fact, the content is completely stupid: "I will die knowing I did everything in my power to stop you"? Yea right, except using the weapon that we built throughout the entire game and the trigger of which was just handed to you. What Shepard actually says there is BS. But this moment is pretty much the only time during this entire dialogue where Shepard actually stops hunching their shoulders and takes a stand. Quite literally, look how Shep's posture changes during that last bit in the refusal choice. Apparently s/he can stand up straight but s/he didn't before. Why? Because Shepard apparently was beaten and accepts that s/he has to go along with the catalyst.

Now maybe that was even true, maybe Shepard really didn't have another choice but my issue is that s/he doesn't even give it a good try, especially because the catalyst's arguments have more holes tan Shepard's armor at this point.

 

Yeah, I feel you. You actually voiced the one thing I had a problem with the most -- "So the Illusive Man was right after all!". That sentence and the facial expressions felt very out of place & out of character. The rest sounds at least as if they're open to the idea of whatever the Catalyst is saying, but this one was just... ugh.

[MrFob]

Yeah, I feel you. You actually voiced the one thing I had a problem with the most -- "So the Illusive Man was right after all!". That sentence and the facial expressions felt very out of place & out of character. The rest sounds at least as if they're open to the idea of whatever the Catalyst is saying, but this one was just... ugh.

 

Yea, it's the one point where I thought the EC actually brought an improvement. At least you get some renegade responses now from time to time. In the original, it was allout submission, really.

[Iakus]

Okay, personally I liked the ending of Mass Effect 3, though I can understand why many people had a problem with it. No real boss fight, similar endings, choices seem more negative than positive. But there is one thing I noticed in a lot of fan-fiction and a mod that create a "better" ending, which is that Shepard is alive and well. You mean, people actually had a problem with Shepard dying?

So let me get this straight: the Walking Dead, Lee dies, best ending ever. Terminator 2, T-800 dies, best ending ever. Mass Effect 3, Shepard dies, worst ending ever?

I mean, come on! One of the largest themes of the game was sacrifice and honoring the people who gave their life for the greater good. So why couldn't Shepard do it? He's the main hero of the game and is written as the savior of the Galaxy, so it's obvious that he would die for the Galaxy. Besides, if other movies or video games can get away with main characters dying, why not Mass Effect 3?

I don't know, maybe I'm missing something. Why don't you guys provide some opinions below.

Not sure if this was covered in the last 20 pages but....

 

Shepard's death is not in itself why the endings are hated.

 

It's the lack of choice behind it.  That virtually all paths taken across the three games seemed to lead (almost) inevitably to that.  It was taking a character we were controlling for five years and three games, and at the final moment, taking away control.  This was a narrative-based role-playing game.  Not a tv show or movie.

 

Yeah, yeah, the breath scene.  Problem is that's only available in the Red ending (so if you don't like that option you're frakked) and Shepard is still nothing more than a faceless torso taking a breath.  I don't care if the LI is suddenly Force-Sensitive, it's not closure, it's "a ray of hope"

 

Compare to the ending of Dragon Age: Origin.  The Warden can choose to sacrifice him/herself to slay the archdemon.  Or choose to let someone else die instead.  Or choose to undertake the Dark Ritual (or convince Alistair or Loghain to do it) 

 

ME3's endings have a lot of problems.  I wouldn't even call Shepard's lack of survival option its biggest flaw (though it's definitely in the top 3).  But it greatly illustrates how ME3 pretty much put the player in the back seat and told us to shut up.

[Killdren88]

A minor thing, but I hated a small little bit when talking to the Bratalyst. It was.stupid when he compared the Reapers to fire. Fire can't think for itself. The Bratalyst can. Fire can't choose to burn. The Bratalsyt has complete control of its actions.

[Vazgen]

A minor thing, but I hated a small little bit when talking to the Bratalyst. It was.stupid when he compared the Reapers to fire. Fire can't think for itself. The Bratalyst can. Fire can't choose to burn. The Bratalsyt has complete control of its actions.

Tbh, if what kid says about him controlling the Reapers is correct, that statement makes perfect sense. It is talking about the Reapers, not about itself. The Reapers are comparable to fire in this context. Just like we can control fire, Catalyst can control the Reapers. But the fire does not choose to burn and so do the Reapers do not choose to reap, they are given those directives from their master. 

[TheRevanchist]

 

 

This is why the ending is bad. Period.

[txgoldrush]

Not sure if this was covered in the last 20 pages but....

 

Shepard's death is not in itself why the endings are hated.

 

It's the lack of choice behind it.  That virtually all paths taken across the three games seemed to lead (almost) inevitably to that.  It was taking a character we were controlling for five years and three games, and at the final moment, taking away control.  This was a narrative-based role-playing game.  Not a tv show or movie.

 

Yeah, yeah, the breath scene.  Problem is that's only available in the Red ending (so if you don't like that option you're frakked) and Shepard is still nothing more than a faceless torso taking a breath.  I don't care if the LI is suddenly Force-Sensitive, it's not closure, it's "a ray of hope"

 

Compare to the ending of Dragon Age: Origin.  The Warden can choose to sacrifice him/herself to slay the archdemon.  Or choose to let someone else die instead.  Or choose to undertake the Dark Ritual (or convince Alistair or Loghain to do it) 

 

ME3's endings have a lot of problems.  I wouldn't even call Shepard's lack of survival option its biggest flaw (though it's definitely in the top 3).  But it greatly illustrates how ME3 pretty much put the player in the back seat and told us to shut up.

The endings are hated because its too thematically complex for a fanbase who enjoys power fantasies.

 

It wasn't Biowarian.

 

DAO is KOTOR in Thedas, it was Biowarian, all full of Biowarisms.

 

The point of the ending is Shepard has to make that decision, it was coming all along, that impacts and alters the destinies of others to achieve his goal. Its not like he hasn't already made these types of decisions. Face it, Mass Effect is a very dark franchise.

 

There is choice in the endings, you just didn't like them.

[txgoldrush]

Yeah, I feel you. You actually voiced the one thing I had a problem with the most -- "So the Illusive Man was right after all!". That sentence and the facial expressions felt very out of place & out of character. The rest sounds at least as if they're open to the idea of whatever the Catalyst is saying, but this one was just... ugh.

WRONG

 

Shepard can actually ask Hackett "what if the Illusive Man was right?" earlier in the game. Not out of character, its all in the narrative.

 

And Shepards argument against TIM wasn't really about controlling the Reapers, but his methods and his quest for power, as well as his indoctrination.

[angol fear]

This is why the ending is bad. Period.

No offense but this video was made by someone who doesn't know what is a genre and who do not understand philosophy. His argument only work on people who don't have any knowledge about what he is talking about (he is a poor ignorant trying to convince people with arguments that make no sense)

[God]

N-No, you just don't understand the brilliance of his line of thinking!   Clearly the concept of The Catalyst is beyond your plebeian mind!  -Bioware forum member God 

 

Man, I must really tick you off if you keep bringing me up in the forums, specifically in threads I haven't bothered in for days.

 

Time for the mods.

[TheRevanchist]

No offense but this video was made by someone who doesn't know what is a genre and who do not understand philosophy. His argument only work on people who don't have any knowledge about what he is talking about (he is a poor ignorant trying to convince people with arguments that make no sense)

 

You can keep thinking you know better than everyone who disagress with your views if you wish, You can also keep insisting you are an expert of some sort who claims to be able to objectively judge the most subjective thing in all of human history, art, if you really want to. However just be aware that the realities of the world are not that simple, and your views of literature are not any more valid than the countless other professionals throughout history who have had the same arguments and debates. You've honestly done nothing to prove to anyone here you know better, you just keep telling us you do, Even if you did provide proof of some sort, it does not change the realities that many other "experts" in literature have had the same disagreements.  

 

No doubt I suspect you will retort by insisting the entire history of human literature just so happens to support your subjective views of art or some other just as equally arrogant statement. I say arrogant on purpose, because you've yet to respect anyone's opinion that is different from yours, talking down to them and insisting you are a master who knows better, which I find hilarious since even Patrick Weeks himself thought the ending was total garbage only to later retract his words for fear of losing his job. But I guess you know better than him too huh?

[Vanilka]

 

 

This is why the ending is bad. Period.

 

I love this analysis. It is intelligent, objective, informed, and shows the many flaws of how the storytelling and other things were handled. He also made another one which briefly focuses on the Extended Cut:

 

 

And something extra as to why the way EC was handled didn't quite fix things:

 

 

They're all very relevant, Extended Cut or not.

 

EDIT: Can't forget about SmudBoy whose analysis is amazing, as well:

 

https://youtu.be/OW2ZxnkUHCY

 

Hell, there's so much to pick apart, he has a whole series on the ending alone. I can recommend them. Also, I laughed my ass off during the Synthesis analysis.

 

EDIT2: My point is not to persuade people here not to like the endings. But I still do think these analyses are very spot on, so I'm sharing with people like me who are also unhappy with the endings and those who are perhaps happy with the endings but are also able to watch these with an open mind and some effort to understand as to why so many of us are angry with the ending of ME3.

[TheRevanchist]

I love this analysis. It is intelligent, objective, informed, and shows the many flaws of how the storytelling and other things were handled. He also made another one which focuses on the Extended Cut:

 

 

And something extra as to why the way EC was handled didn't quite fix things:

 

 

They're all very relevant, Extended Cut or not.

 

EDIT: Can't forget about SmudBoy whose analysis is amazing, as well:

 

https://youtu.be/OW2ZxnkUHCY

 

Hell, there's so much to pick apart, he has a whole series on the ending alone. I can recommend them. Also, I laughed my ass off during the Synthesis analysis.

 

EDIT2: My point is not to persuade people here not to like the endings. But I still do think these analyses are very spot on, so I'm sharing with people like me who are also unhappy with the endings and those who are perhaps happy with the endings but are also able to watch these with an open mind and some effort to understand as to why so many of us are angry with the ending of ME3.

 

 

Oh I understand, as does most people with an open mind. Many people however just seem intent on talking down to and belittling anyone who dares to have a different opinion about something.

[angol fear]

the most subjective thing in all of human history, art, if you really want to.

"This is why the ending is bad. Period", that's what you said, isn't it ? You say that something is bad (implicitly you're saying that what you wrote is objective) then you say that art is "subjective" . Where is the "I think that..." "my opinion" etc...? Don't you see the problem ? I won't ask you question about art I know your answer. I know why you liked the videos.
It has nothing to do with open mind, ignorance is ignorance, if you accept wrong definition of notions, it's not open mind it's ignorance. What is "wrong" is wrong", it won't turn into "right" thanks to "open mind".

[AlanC9]

"So ... the Illusive Man was right after all." WHAT? My Shepard just convinced the guy to shoot himself 5 minutes ago.

I liked the line OK, but not the delivery. Amusement at the irony would have been more appropriate. Actually, the whole scene should have been played as black comedy.

[AlanC9]

A minor thing, but I hated a small little bit when talking to the Bratalyst. It was.stupid when he compared the Reapers to fire. Fire can't think for itself. The Bratalyst can. Fire can't choose to burn. The Bratalsyt has complete control of its actions.

But his point was that the Reapers themselves don't have control. If the Reapers could think for themselves, would they really be doing the cycles?

[Dantriges]

It seems that Reaper can think for themselves, but their creator still has them on a tight leash.

[txgoldrush]

I liked the line OK, but not the delivery. Amusement at the irony would have been more appropriate. Actually, the whole scene should have been played as black comedy.

He was wounded, I like his exhausted delivery.

 

Remember Shepard didn't oppose controlling the Reapers if it ever was an option, just opposes TIM's methods and motives to control the Reapers. Shepard can ask Hackett "what if TIM is right?" before the end of the game. 

 

 

But his point was that the Reapers themselves don't have control. If the Reapers could think for themselves, would they really be doing the cycles?

This...its even obvious in ME1.

 

Signs show that the Reapers don't even know the Catalyst's presence.

[txgoldrush]

I love this analysis. It is intelligent, objective, informed, and shows the many flaws of how the storytelling and other things were handled. He also made another one which briefly focuses on the Extended Cut:

 

 

And something extra as to why the way EC was handled didn't quite fix things:

 

 

They're all very relevant, Extended Cut or not.

 

EDIT: Can't forget about SmudBoy whose analysis is amazing, as well:

 

https://youtu.be/OW2ZxnkUHCY

 

Hell, there's so much to pick apart, he has a whole series on the ending alone. I can recommend them. Also, I laughed my ass off during the Synthesis analysis.

 

EDIT2: My point is not to persuade people here not to like the endings. But I still do think these analyses are very spot on, so I'm sharing with people like me who are also unhappy with the endings and those who are perhaps happy with the endings but are also able to watch these with an open mind and some effort to understand as to why so many of us are angry with the ending of ME3.

Here the thing....the video maker failed to even get the ending or why the Crucible is explained.

 

He misses the point entirely that the Catalyst helps you because his cycle is no longer feasible with the Crucible, because even if he destroys it now, the next cycle wins because organics are too resourceful at this point. That's how Shepard "altered the variables".

 

There is no abandonment of genre, in fact in confirms its universe based on the central conflict, which the video make truly doesn't get. Its more than just Reapers vs everyone.

 

Nevermind who built the Crucible....who cares? Due to the scope of the story and the cycles, it doesn't matter.

 

This ending is simply put, too complex for the Bioware audience.

[Rhaenyss]

I liked the line OK, but not the delivery. Amusement at the irony would have been more appropriate. Actually, the whole scene should have been played as black comedy.

 

Yeah, I would've liked it like this as well, but it's a minor thing, really.

[Vanilka]

Here the thing....the video maker failed to even get the ending or why the Crucible is explained.

 

He misses the point entirely that the Catalyst helps you because his cycle is no longer feasible with the Crucible, because even if he destroys it now, the next cycle wins because organics are too resourceful at this point. That's how Shepard "altered the variables".

 

There is no abandonment of genre, in fact in confirms its universe based on the central conflict, which the video make truly doesn't get. Its more than just Reapers vs everyone.

 

Nevermind who built the Crucible....who cares? Due to the scope of the story and the cycles, it doesn't matter.

 

This ending is simply put, too complex for the Bioware audience.

 

"Too complex." Riiight. What's there to understand? Why is it that many of those that are hell-bent on defending the endings resort to arguments like "The gamers didn't get it," without being able to back it up with proper arguments? Oh, and also one of my favourites: "Who cares?" Next time you'll tell me "it's just a video game."

 

I was actually considering having this discussion, but after reading stuff like "Who cares?" and "It doesn't matter," I'm not sure this discussion matters to me or that I care about having it. I've had enough arguments with people who think everybody who dares to complain about anything is just too dumb to get it.

 

Also, you conveniently only address a microscopic part of what was said in the smallest video and your arguments barely say anything. Saying that the ending which suddenly turns to space magic is consistent and that we don't spend most of the game fighting or trying to find out how to fight the Reapers... well, sorry, but no, I don't agree with you. I still think we can live in peace without calling each other dumb regardless.

 

Also, pretty sure that the video maker's point, amongst other things, was that this is how much they cared. They actually put, "Lol I dunno," answer there for the Catalyst instead of at least trying to say something of value. And I do agree that the thing with the Crucible is contrived as hell: Countless cycles added something to the Crucible, yet they had no idea what it exactly does and where and how it's used. Sorry if I'm not convinced.

 

I could go on, but I'm really tired of the "This is too complicated for the average dumb gamer to get," kind of argument. You keep telling yourself that ME3's ending is some sort of deep artistic whatever and that you're one of the very few smart enough to get it. I won't break it for you. Just don't expect me to sit here and nod.

[Mercyva]

personally, i dont mind the ending... but i do feel that it did not make sense to me at the time. i understand why people hate it, i just think my shepard deserved more.

[Dantriges]

 

He misses the point entirely that the Catalyst helps you because his cycle is no longer feasible with the Crucible, because even if he destroys it now, the next cycle wins because organics are too resourceful at this point. That's how Shepard "altered the variables".

 

As the Catalyst said, his solution is no longer viable. Why not simply stop harvesting? The threat of synthetics wiping out organics became a lot smaller when the organics built this "destroy all synthetics everywhere in the galaxy" weapon in shape of a giant lollipop. Only good for one shot but well, we still have the blueprints and the damage to the Citadel can be repaired.  Leave whatever is needed from the Catalyst to fire that thing behind and go. Why should it go along with it? Well, he just gave you the ignition keeys to blow up every reaper and itself.  In its mind the reapers are organics in preserved and ascended form. Firing it now would ruin his work for the last billion years. And well being functional, so he can fulfill his purpose should be somewhere in his priority list. He can send in some Reapers for the non critical machine rebellions if he wants to.

 

And well if the next cycle wins anyways because organics became too resourceful, it´s pointless to continue. His solution no longer works which makes continuing to fight eh be like an unthinking flame cleansing the galaxy of the taint, a pointless endevour.

[AlanC9]

I dunno. The Crucible threat doesn't strike me as one that you could realistically hold over AIs forever. You've got a single point of failure there.