718 réponses à ce sujet

[prosthetic soul]

No. Just no. You're missing the point entirely. You're fundamentally misunderstanding (maybe purposefully) what an ambiguous ending is. Gone Girl is ambiguous. So is The Shining, 2001: A Space Odyssey, No Country For Old Men, and Blade Runner. There are some great pieces of literature and film that have ambiguous endings. Your problem is that you continue to insist on an ending that makes you happy. Guess what? You can't have it. The ending is Bioware's. You're free not to like it. No one cares if you don't like it. But saying that it's bad because you personally didn't get what you wanted is a poor justification for not liking the ending.

That's not even what we're talking about girl.  That is not even close to what we're discussing.  algol brought up some argument that real literature and real movies all have to have ambiguous endings.  Which is simply not the case.  Stop going off on your own personal tangent against me.  YOU are missing the point. 

[Monica21]

Hey OP.  I completely beg to differ.  Read the link in my sig. 

 

The ending sucked for a lot of reasons.  INCLUDING the fact that Shepard gets railroaded into dying (mostly) in all four endings. 

 

This is what you're "arguing." The ending "sucked" because you didn't like it, and that's a dumb argument. And then you latched onto what a fairy tale is and went on a tangent.

 

I don't think that you know what you're arguing for anymore.

[Rhaenyss]

That's not even what we're talking about girl.  That is not even close to what we're discussing.  algol brought up some argument that real literature and real movies all have to have ambiguous endings.  Which is simply not the case.  Stop going off on your own personal tangent against me.  YOU are missing the point. 

 

Wow, the bolded part is just condescending. Do you demand a refund for all the movies you've seen in the cinema, or is it just Mass Effect? I understand you're angry at something that you personally didn't like, but I'm not sure I understand what you're trying to achieve? 

[Kabraxal]

Why do those that defend these endings always revert to a "you are just too stupid to get it!" Type of argument? The endings were simply out of place, didn't properly follow the actual building climax, and pulled a character ftom oblivion with no actual foreshadowing.... In short, they simply sucked.

[Monica21]

Why do those that defend these endings always revert to a "you are just too stupid to get it!" Type of argument? The endings were simply out of place, didn't properly follow the actual building climax, and pulled a character ftom oblivion with no actual foreshadowing.... In short, they simply sucked.

 

For what it's worth, I'm not defending the ending, nor do I think anyone is stupid. I do think that internet equivalent of flipping tables is a waste of time. No matter what you thought of the ending, you still paid Bioware for their story. It's their story and Shepard's story that concluded, not the story you necessarily wanted to see, regardless of how invested you were in your Shepard.

[angol fear]

Seriously chronoid I know what is fairy tales, I teach it. You failed to understand mass effect just like you fail to understand what I mean because of your lack of knowledge about the genre and the literature. You have been here complaining about the ending for too long to admit that your own reading was wrong, that the real problem is you and your expectations. Seriously, read real literature you'll understand what I mean.

[prosthetic soul]

Seriously chronoid I know what is fairy tales, I teach it. You failed to understand mass effect just like you fail to understand what I mean because of your lack of knowledge about the genre and the literature. You have been here complaining about the ending for too long to admit that your own reading was wrong, that the real problem is you and your expectations. Seriously, read real literature you'll understand what I mean.

Lolololol.  you didn't prove anything with this post.  This entire post is the equivalent to saying:

 

NO, I AM SMARTER THAN YOU. Nanana boo boo, stick your head in doo doo! 

 

You say you "teach" fairy tales?  Didn't realize that was a profession.  You just said I didn't understand it without actually backing it up with evidence and a well-founded argument.  You keep saying "READ REAL literature."  What does that mean?  You can't just state things without backing it up.  **** outta here with this nonsense. 

[prosthetic soul]

Wow, the bolded part is just condescending. Do you demand a refund for all the movies you've seen in the cinema, or is it just Mass Effect? I understand you're angry at something that you personally didn't like, but I'm not sure I understand what you're trying to achieve? 

She's been nothing but condescending to me for the duration of this debate.  I am simply voicing my complaints to Bioware in the only way I know how.  But telling it to them on their official forums and twitter. 

 

This is what you're "arguing." The ending "sucked" because you didn't like it, and that's a dumb argument. And then you latched onto what a fairy tale is and went on a tangent.

 

I don't think that you know what you're arguing for anymore.

Nice strawman.  Nice parroting my argument. 

[angol fear]

Lolololol. you didn't prove anything with this post. This entire post is the equivalent to saying:

NO, I AM SMARTER THAN YOU. Nanana boo boo, stick your head in doo doo!

You say you "teach" fairy tales? Didn't realize that was a profession. You just said I didn't understand it without actually backing it up with evidence and a well-founded argument. You keep saying "READ REAL literature." What does that mean? You can't just state things without backing it up. **** outta here with this nonsense.

Grow up and learn little boy what is literature. If you think that fairy tales are the model for all writings then you don't know what is real literature.
Answering like a child only confirms what I think about your knowledge.

[angol fear]

Why do those that defend these endings always revert to a "you are just too stupid to get it!" Type of argument? The endings were simply out of place, didn't properly follow the actual building climax, and pulled a character ftom oblivion with no actual foreshadowing.... In short, they simply sucked.

Wrong, you are totally wrong. You didn't properly read the game and blame the for being bad while you failed reading it. So the problem isn't the game. So the problem is that you have to learn how to read. You may feel that I am saying that you are too stupid to get it. If you don't admit your mistake then yes it might mean that.

[txgoldrush]

Wrong, you are totally wrong. You didn't properly read the game and blame the for being bad while you failed reading it. So the problem isn't the game. So the problem is that you have to learn how to read. You may feel that I am saying that you are too stupid to get it. If you don't admit your mistake then yes it might mean that.

This.

 

Bioware overestimated the intelligence of the audience.

 

Expect more dumbing down of storytelling from them from now on, Dragon age Inquisition is just the beginning.

[dorktainian]

No. Just no. You're missing the point entirely. You're fundamentally misunderstanding (maybe purposefully) what an ambiguous ending is. Gone Girl is ambiguous. So is The Shining, 2001: A Space Odyssey, No Country For Old Men, and Blade Runner. There are some great pieces of literature and film that have ambiguous endings. Your problem is that you continue to insist on an ending that makes you happy. Guess what? You can't have it. The ending is Bioware's. You're free not to like it. No one cares if you don't like it. But saying that it's bad because you personally didn't get what you wanted is a poor justification for not liking the ending.

 

 

The mass effect 3 ending (?) isn't ambiguous.  It's simply not an ending.  

 

It's not an ending in any way shape or form unless you (wait for it) take into account IT. (which I do but I wont get into that discussion here)  

 

This is a story structure.  

 

 

how can you justify the mass effect story to that, without taking IT into account?  Answer:  You can't!!

 

Therefore if IT isn't legit, then it's bad storytelling.....period.  There is no structure to it at all.  It's like they're still stuck between recommit to goal and Climax.  Also as I've mentioned there are 4 differing narratives on the go.  How is that effective storytelling unless one of them is canonised?

 

If it is a singular story then it fails.  Where is the singular end point?  Oh wait there isn't one unless it's the destruction of the mass relays and the end of civilisation in the milky way (actually that might be it).

[Vazgen]

The singular end point for all the endings is "The Reaper threat is ended". How? Depends on player choices. That's the point of interractive storytelling. You don't give players choices and then dump them all in one singular end point without addressing them. Ironically, similarity of the original endings was one of the main points of criticism before the EC. Hell, you can see people bringing it up even after EC.

"Yes, people will die. Maybe we'll lose half the galaxy. Maybe more. But I will do whatever it takes to rid the galaxy from the Reaper threat".

 

Choose a goal - when Shepard gets control of the Normandy, Hackett's briefing

Recommit to goal - genophage, geth/quarian war

Crisis - Thessia

Regroup - Thessia aftermath, Horizon

Climax - Cerberus HQ, assault on Earth

Denouement - everything since being hit by Harbinger

[prosthetic soul]

Grow up and learn little boy what is literature. If you think that fairy tales are the model for all writings then you don't know what is real literature.
Answering like a child only confirms what I think about your knowledge.

Again, you didn't address my point or my argument.  You just insulted me and stated you were superior to me.  Your method of arguing suggests YOU are the one who needs to grow up. 

[Rosstoration]

I don't think anyone had a problem with Shepard dying, that wasn't the issue with the old endings (and to an extent the extended one). It was pretty much expected. The problem was the fact they were so poorly written and delivered, pre-extended cut the end was something like 4 or 5 minutes of just confusion. The mass relays explode violently, your entire team warp onto the Normandy, Joker ends up stranded on some "Garden of Eden" - End. So is everyone stuck on Earth? Has the Mass Relays destroyed every system their in? How did everyone end up on the Normandy? etc.

 

The ending has been discussed to death and people are generally not budging on their opinions now, but it was just comes down to poor writing. The whole game just came apart at the seams, it was rushed, pure and simple.

[Monica21]

Nice strawman.  Nice parroting my argument. 

 

If a strawman is quoting your previous statement, then you can believe that. But it doesn't make you right.

 

The problem here is that you're attempting to prove as factually correct something that you can only believe as opinion. It is your opinion that the endings were terrible, and that is all. You can't prove it. You can't make other people believe because it's just your opinion. You're standing on a soapbox and hyperventilating about the awful endings and that Shepard died because you don't like them. That's opinion. That is not fact. Stop pretending that you're arguing fact.

 

 

The mass effect 3 ending (?) isn't ambiguous.  It's simply not an ending.  

 

It actually is an ending. It's an ending because that's where the story ends. Shepard's role is finished no matter what he chooses. Then, it's over. The End.

[Kabraxal]

Wrong, you are totally wrong. You didn't properly read the game and blame the for being bad while you failed reading it. So the problem isn't the game. So the problem is that you have to learn how to read. You may feel that I am saying that you are too stupid to get it. If you don't admit your mistake then yes it might mean that.

Nice arrogance.  Too bad you can't actually prove it and only spout of to fan your false sense of superiority in some strange hope that some random people on a forum actually fawn over your "wondrous enlightened intelligence".  

 

A lot of people "understood" the endings... but they were poorly written, did not fit the tone of the trilogy, failed to actually take 3 games of choice into account, and simply said "a, b, c, ... o and d with this nice pointless DLC that actually doesn't fix any of the problems."  But keep bleeting and thumping your chest.  Doesn't change the facts that you are not more enlightened and everyone only detests the ending because they just doesn't get it.  

[Asharad Hett]

You mean, people actually had a problem with Shepard dying?

 

On my first play through, everyone died. Earth was destroyed.  The mass relays were destroyed.  The Normany crashed, and nobody walked out.   Everyone died.   I didn't "win".  I lost.  

 

[Dantriges]

The writers threw out some deep philosophical concepts and high art and forgot that the player is a participant in the story. And the story made less and less sense the further it progressed. At the end, I asked myself, why are we still shooting at each other and why does my "guide," who is the biggest mass murderer of the galaxy, make no sense. It´s not even clear how much he is still in control of himself, let´s not talk about his logic which sounded like it´s based on buggy coding.

[dorktainian]

It actually is an ending. It's an ending because that's where the story ends. Shepard's role is finished no matter what he chooses. Then, it's over. The End.

 

but 'the breath scene' and 'the narrator at the end' say different.

[Monica21]

but 'the breath scene' and 'the narrator at the end' say different.

Regardless of the breath scene, Shepard's story is over. You can make the same argument about Control and Synthesis. What happens now that Shepard is the overlord of all synthetics or what happens now that he is the consciousness of all synthetics? His role is arguably more important with Control and Synthesis than with Destroy. But none of that matters because the story is over. Shepard defeated the Reapers (one way or another) and that's the end.

 

You know what happened at the end of Neverwinter Nights 2? The protagonist got the "rocks fall everyone dies" ending. Except in the expansion the protagonist actually got teleported to a different land altogether and had a brand new quest. And then it ended because you beat the bad guy.

 

That's how endings work. Once the protagonist beats the bad guy the story is over, because that's the only reason to tell you the protagonist's story. It doesn't matter if the protagonist lives or dies, the story is over.

 

No one is telling anyone they can't dislike the way it ended, but the argument that the story is somehow incomplete because there isn't a Mass Effect: Shepard's Retirement game is just wrong. Disliking the ending and failing to acknowledge that it ended are two different things.

[prosthetic soul]

Regardless of the breath scene, Shepard's story is over. You can make the same argument about Control and Synthesis. What happens now that Shepard is the overlord of all synthetics or what happens now that he is the consciousness of all synthetics? His role is arguably more important with Control and Synthesis than with Destroy. But none of that matters because the story is over. Shepard defeated the Reapers (one way or another) and that's the end.

 

You know what happened at the end of Neverwinter Nights 2? The protagonist got the "rocks fall everyone dies" ending. Except in the expansion the protagonist actually got teleported to a different land altogether and had a brand new quest. And then it ended because you beat the bad guy.

 

That's how endings work. Once the protagonist beats the bad guy the story is over, because that's the only reason to tell you the protagonist's story. It doesn't matter if the protagonist lives or dies, the story is over.

 

No one is telling anyone they can't dislike the way it ended, but the argument that the story is somehow incomplete because there isn't a Mass Effect: Shepard's Retirement game is just wrong. Disliking the ending and failing to acknowledge that it ended are two different things.

It didn't end though. 

[Monica21]

It didn't end though. 

 

And this is why I condescend to you. 

[prosthetic soul]

And this is why I condescend to you. 

And that is why you will always be wrong in this instance.  : )

[angol fear]

Nice arrogance. Too bad you can't actually prove it and only spout of to fan your false sense of superiority in some strange hope that some random people on a forum actually fawn over your "wondrous enlightened intelligence".

A lot of people "understood" the endings... but they were poorly written, did not fit the tone of the trilogy, failed to actually take 3 games of choice into account, and simply said "a, b, c, ... o and d with this nice pointless DLC that actually doesn't fix any of the problems." But keep bleeting and thumping your chest. Doesn't change the facts that you are not more enlightened and everyone only detests the ending because they just doesn't get it.

I actually have proven it officially, not on this forum, in a paper that you can buy. I have done it before the extended cut.