718 réponses à ce sujet

[Goodmongo]

You heard that piece of dialogue where Anderson mentions that the walls are shifting? Why are the walls shifting? Dunno, my personal headcanon is that they couldn´t hide the reaper production facility that is also somewhere simply by locking a door.

 
Eh I meant that the catalyst is the reaper leader. Was I unclear= Sorry. The Catalyst actually said that he´s the collective intelligence of the Reapers. Vigil explained what? What are you talking about? Do you mean Vendetta?
 

TIM is on the Citadel because it´s the Catalyst. The Reapers take the Citadel to Earth because it´s still the missing component for the Crucible. In this mod Vendetta is right that the Citadel is the Catalyst and there is no AI called the Catalyst. BTW the Crucible project failed because of indoctrinated agents.
 

Yes the game tells us that the Citadel is usually taken first.  Totally stupid idea to include the Citadel in your design? Hm well, it´s probably included because it´s the only way to make it work. Easier to believe that the crucible designers were able to know how incoporate the Citadel which was probably their capital for a few thousand years before the Reapers moved in than the AI no one knew about.
 

No because synthesis is even more space magic than the "destroy all reapers" lollipop connecting to the central mass relay control.
And the low EMS ending where everyone dies and the Reapers win is awesome.

 

I don´t know about the others but I am more lenient with a fanmade mod for a game that wasn´t intended to be mod friendly and where the modder had to work with the stuff he got or spend months rendering new stuff. And he still had to work within the constraints of the existing game. Thanks for all the work for free.

Third

Let´s assume you are right. Everyone who criticises the endings just wanted a happy ending and everyone also downloaded the mod and found it awesome because yay Shepard lives. Every critic is lying or at least dishonest to him/herself and just looked for plotholes to find other reasons to complain than simply admitting that he doesn´t like the death of Shepard. And this resulted in this huge mountain of stuff people complain about, too.

 

Ok fine. So now what? What does it change? Does this mountain of problems go away if everyone admits it. Does the game suddenly turn into something else or do we go back to blissful ignorance after finding enough other reasons to dislike the endings. Do you win the internet? The big mountain is still there. 

 

The walls do shift all the time.  But it just so happens that they shift to allow Shepard to be rescued?  How convenient.

 

The reason for taking the Citadel was explained pretty well by the game going back to ME1.  It is cutting off the head of the organics.  They control all relays from there.  And they get detailed information about planets, populations etc.  All the records are stored there for easy access.  

 

As for why it didn't work remember that the Protheans basically re coded parts of the Citadel.  The keepers no long respond to the Reapers from afar.  That's why Sovereign had to go there personally.  

 

But let's look at this ending and TIM.  In the BW endings it makes logical sense why TIM goes to the Citadel and logical sense that the catalyst gets the info from TIM and they move the Citadel to Earth and close it up so the crucible can't be used.  Remember the reapers thought the crucible was lost technology and surprised that this cycle had it.  However, in this new ending what logical reason was there for TIM to go to the Citadel?  Just go to some Reaper on any planet to warn them. Remember there is no central AI at the Citadel it's just some big item in the sky.  And if TIM doesn't warn the Reapers then how do they know to move it to Earth and lock it up?  If you say there were other spies then why didn't the Reapers have them sabotage the crucible or better yet just go there and attack it?  

 

I have nothing against the mod builders.  I'm directing my comments to those that hate almost everything about the BW endings yet applaud this ending when 95% is identical and all it did was remove things.

 

As for the low EMS ending you have that right now.  Shoot the catalyst and you lose.  Or have low EMS on destroy and you get the same thing.  Yet people will let the mod low EMS pass inspection and not BW's options.  Why?

 

Thanks for confirming for me that synergy would not cut it.  You say space magic but is it that much more space magic than destroy?  But now let's use control instead of destroy.  People will still not like it.  See HEA has tow major components here.  One is Shepard lives but the other is the bad guys must be killed.  Synergy and control don't kill the bad guys and in any classical HEA the bad guys must lose.  The Nazi's can't be allies or saved.  The outlaws even in Butch Cassidy, Die Hard or any movie end up in jail or dead.  HEA does not allow the bad guys to change and become useful or nice.

 

In the end it doesn't change anything except that maybe there will be a little more personal insight done.  Was my complaint really about X or was I biased and said X was a big deal when in fact it really wasn't.  Take the whole beam sequence and TIM.  While some still complain many others now don't have issues with it.  Why is that?  I'll repeat why is the beam and TIM no longer an issue with many people in the mod ending?

 

 

Please don't go all Catalyst on me  . Do you really live in a world where everybody who disagrees with you does so for one reason only, and it's a stupid reason? I might want to join you there from time to time, it seems to be oddly relaxing...I'm stuck in a world where people populate a vast landscape of worldviews, and it takes a lot of reading and talking and thinking and understanding to sort it all out...it can be exhausting.

 

Well, I'm not one of "the guys singing the praise of MEHEM". If it weren't HEA, I would still say that removing the Catalyst is a good idea. In fact I think that one of the older mods which switches from Anderson's death directly to the destroy ending is still the most successful in the sense that it removes the most plot holes and introduces no new ones. I agree with your point that the "finding Shepard and evacuate via shuttle" is a new plot hole in MEHEM (I still wouldn't say it is a sieve like the original ending). Synergy would make no sense at all in MEHEM, as it already did not make much sense in the original ending. BTW: For me, synergy is not HEA, it is BS.

 

Synergy is not HEA and that's why its BS to you.  Come on everything is identical except the secret weapon does synergy.  You actually prove my point.

 

 

Now, I don't use MEHEM exactly, but the alternative version without the rescue scene, so I've only seen the rescue scene once, however, I still don't know what the problem is. We have NavPoints that make location super easy, which is proven many times throughout the game. And the platform is in open space....

 

 

... which means the place is accessible with a shuttle. And the Kodiak shuttle does not need to land (although there's quite enough space for that on the platform). We've performed countless jumps out of and jumps into the Kodiak shuttle with it still being in the air. It can float in place with no problem. It can comfortably stop at the edge of the platform if needed.

 

Also, I'm not saying any of the ending mods is perfect, but some of these complaints miss the point.

 

Actually your pictures don't prove anything.  Look at the second picture.  The view to space is very narrow.  But the arms were wide open in a flower position.  So you can't be looking through the arms.  Or did then move yet again?  Sorry but it goes to my position that it is just a projection.  Otherwise the arms wouldn't be that close.

 

As to you nav points you clearly miss it.  You are located in a very big building that is bigger than almost every city today.  Now say you're hiding in a building like the Pentagon.  I know you're in there and I might now when I get very close.  But without a floor plan I have no clue how to get to you.  And the Citadel changes all the time.  Walls come and go.  So sorry but just knowing your location and getting to you are two very different things and a huge hole.  Not to mention air pressure and if it's open then why didn't they need masks?  Even the start of ME2 shows you need air in a sealed off compartment.

 

My complaints hit the point exactly.  People are very willing to ignore them because  its HEA after all.

[Goodmongo]

Let me ask a slightly different question here.  Let's say the mod has exactly the same stuff as it does today but also gives Shepard a choice.  There is an A and B button he can press.  A leads to the mods destruction ending while B leads to a synergy ending.  There is no catalyst AI.  Just two buttons on a control panel that explain the choices with the warning that the original purpose of AI's fighting organics is still a possibility.

 

Would this be OK?

[AlanC9]

That's basically the Dark Energy ending, right?

[Vanilka]

Actually your pictures don't prove anything.  Look at the second picture.  The view to space is very narrow.

Narrow? Do you realise how large the Citadel is? If the arms are open this much, you can fit a small Reaper through there. That's not something that's ten metres from Shepard. It's far away in the distance. It could possibly be kilometres of space.
 

But the arms were wide open in a flower position.  So you can't be looking through the arms.  Or did then move yet again?

It's the point of the game where Shepard finally got to the console and is opening the Citadel. This is taken from the vanilla game. I don't see your problem.

The Citadel only gets into the position of the flower after Shepard faints (and gets carried up by a magical elevator to the Catalyst).
 

Sorry but it goes to my position that it is just a projection.  Otherwise the arms wouldn't be that close.

Why should it be a projection? Sorry, but that makes no sense.
 

As to you nav points you clearly miss it.  You are located in a very big building that is bigger than almost every city today.  Now say you're hiding in a building like the Pentagon.  I know you're in there and I might now when I get very close.  But without a floor plan I have no clue how to get to you.  And the Citadel changes all the time.  Walls come and go.  So sorry but just knowing your location and getting to you are two very different things and a huge hole.  Not to mention air pressure and if it's open then why didn't they need masks?  Even the start of ME2 shows you need air in a sealed off compartment.

 

And that's why I posted the pictures of the place, because you can see there's nothing blocking the access to the platform Shepard stands on, unless it's solid transparent material, which we also have no proof of. Knowing Shepard's exact location, the only thing stopping the possible rescue are just your made up excuses.

 

If you think that they need masks, then it should be weird to you that Shepard doesn't die in the vanilla game while standing on that platform or while talking to the Catalyst. That's all vanilla. This universe, however, has technology to make barriers to keep breathable air in, just like it does in the Citadel docks, which is exactly why I put my pictures here to suggest it as a possible explanation, because, frankly, nobody knows for sure. Not me. Not you.

 

Again, as I said, we made it through the Collector ship, Collector base, Ilos, and other weird places. You're just trying to make the crew that could possibly make the pick up totally incompetent because it's convenient for your argument. The truth is we don't even know whether there's anything blocking the access to Shepard. MEHEM uses this idea. I don't use MEHEM, so I don't get this scene in my game, but I can't see a reason why it shouldn't be possible.
 

My complaints hit the point exactly.  People are very willing to ignore them because  its HEA after all.

I knew I was going to regret talking at all. Funny how you're willing to invent a million reasons why an AI existing for billions of years that kills organics with synthetics so that they don't get killed by other synthetics is okay, but a shuttle pick up is totally unimaginable and unconvincing to you, not to even mention the ridiculous conclusions you draw from it. I can only shake my head.

[themikefest]

The only part of the Citadel that an organic has never been to is where Shepard meets the catalyst. The part that Shepard walks along to get to the console, Shepard mentions its a part he/she has never seen before. It doesn't mean that one of the other species hasn't been there.

[capn233]

The bigger problem with introducing the sacrifice theme for this game isn't that particular theme necessarily, it is that they didn't properly address themes that were introduced and developed through the previous two games.

 

I don't know how the Walking Dead ends, but the T800 in T2 isn't exactly the hero in the same vein as Shepard.  It would be more like sacrificing Garrus, Ash or even EDI in ME3 (one of which you can do potentially, despite the potential lack of logic).

[Dantriges]

The walls do shift all the time.  But it just so happens that they shift to allow Shepard to be rescued?  How convenient.

Yes, Mass Effect is powered by dark plotholes and ridiculous coincidences. That´s nothing new. It´s very convenient and that´s a problem. Do we want to expand this topic now to every stupid crap that was pulled off for the sake of plot. Will be a long day.
 

The reason for taking the Citadel was explained pretty well by the game going back to ME1.  It is cutting off the head of the organics.  They control all relays from there.  And they get detailed information about planets, populations etc.  All the records are stored there for easy access.

Yes, that´s the original plan. What´s the point? It would make more sense to strike at the Citadel first instead of Earth? I agree. A lot of people agree.
 

As for why it didn't work remember that the Protheans basically re coded parts of the Citadel.  The keepers no long respond to the Reapers from afar.  That's why Sovereign had to go there personally.

The damn frigging boss of Sovereign is sitting right there in the Citadel. Sovereign shouldn´t be needed for opening the relays and Saren shouldn´t be needed for opening the arms if the frigging original OS of that thing is the actual Reaper master control program. Or the Reapers are stupid enough to put their controlling intelligence right there without anymeans to influence its environment. Why would he need a keeper to push the button? EDI can hammer through enemy firewalls just fine in the middle of combat, the Catalyst is a trojan horse since the asari showed up and took over the Citadel. And this is a problem introduced by putting the starkid there and there was never an attempt to explain that. Neither in original nor in the extended cut.  
 

But let's look at this ending and TIM.  In the BW endings it makes logical sense why TIM goes to the Citadel and logical sense that the catalyst gets the info from TIM and they move the Citadel to Earth and close it up so the crucible can't be used.  Remember the reapers thought the crucible was lost technology and surprised that this cycle had it.  However, in this new ending what logical reason was there for TIM to go to the Citadel?  Just go to some Reaper on any planet to warn them. Remember there is no central AI at the Citadel it's just some big item in the sky.  And if TIM doesn't warn the Reapers then how do they know to move it to Earth and lock it up?  If you say there were other spies then why didn't the Reapers have them sabotage the crucible or better yet just go there and attack it?

 
In TIM´s mind he is no Reaper servant but the one and only dude with enough vision to control the Reapers. To control the Reapers he thinks that he needs the Catalyst and the Crucible. No it doesn´t matter if it can actually do that, it´s just necessary that he thinks it can do that. The Citadel is the Catalyst, the Crucible is brought by our intrepid hero to the Catalyst/Citadel. Yes it´s a huge Xanatos gambit but well TIM isn´t really known for a cautious approach to things. You know that you could apply your reasoning to the original, too? Why go to the Citadel? He doesn´t know that the AI is there. He knows what Vendetta told him. There is no reason to report to the Catalyst, he doesn´t know that the Catalyst is Reaper boss.  Did his Reaper handler tell him to go to the Citadel?

 

Thanks for confirming for me that synergy would not cut it.  You say space magic but is it that much more space magic than destroy?  But now let's use control instead of destroy.  People will still not like it.  See HEA has tow major components here. One is Shepard lives but the other is the bad guys must be killed.  Synergy and control don't kill the bad guys and in any classical HEA the bad guys must lose.  The Nazi's can't be allies or saved.  The outlaws even in Butch Cassidy, Die Hard or any movie end up in jail or dead.  HEA does not allow the bad guys to change and become useful or nice.

 

Yes because blasting something to kingdom come is still easier than rewriting DNA by attaching whatever.  This game was about killing the bad guys all the time. Ah no, it was about killing the bad guys victims which is really twisted. Shepard can decide to let the perps go, like Maya Brooks or General Petrovsky. But the revelation that every time when you were shooting at Cerberus troops you are killing civilians, who were forced to endure invasive surgery so they become loyal troops with no choice, only warrants a "that´s bad", before you go back to killing them. And then you kill other victims like the reaper ground forces but oh yeah, the Reapers are special, they killed quadrillions of people over the last billion years and they are totally beyond our morals and comprehension, so it´s ok?
 Whatever was left of the processed people is long gone. Screw that, give me the red button. For me. If you like synthesis, that´s ok. I disagree but so what? Yeah I could keep the original and pick destroy but this way I don´t have to listen to the insane AIs ramblings and fry my allies in case I didn´t fry the lampheads myself.

 

In the end it doesn't change anything except that maybe there will be a little more personal insight done.  Was my complaint really about X or was I biased and said X was a big deal when in fact it really wasn't.  Take the whole beam sequence and TIM.  While some still complain many others now don't have issues with it.  Why is that?  I'll repeat why is the beam and TIM no longer an issue with many people in the mod ending?

You know the only instance where I would be ok with the Catalyst showing up would be to hear him pleading and begging for mercy before I sent him to his red colored grave. The beam run and TIM are still an issue for some/most people. The beam run even in the original isn´t a problem for me, because I yell "run little pyjaks, run" when I am there and laugh about how ridiculous this whole thing is. I derive some entertainment value out of it. it´s not what the designers intended but in this instance I don´t care. But well I am silly sometimes. But yeah there are issued like this stupid evac scene.
 
 

 

My complaints hit the point exactly.  People are very willing to ignore them because  its HEA after all.

 

It´s better than the original, it´s not perfect, but it´s better.

[MrFob]

Let me ask a slightly different question here.  Let's say the mod has exactly the same stuff as it does today but also gives Shepard a choice.  There is an A and B button he can press.  A leads to the mods destruction ending while B leads to a synergy ending.  There is no catalyst AI.  Just two buttons on a control panel that explain the choices with the warning that the original purpose of AI's fighting organics is still a possibility.

 

Would this be OK?

 

I actually tried to do it this way. In fact, I wanted all three options to be there. I wanted Shepard to actually reach the console, than maybe have some interface with text explaining the options or something like that (maybe hijack the personal terminal interface, never finished thinking it all through) and then the player could choose. Unfortunately, it was simply impossible to implement with our tools.

 

As for the plot holes: I agree that the view of the arms n the background when the shuttle flies into the chamber is not entirely consistent. The view on earth should be less obstructed by that time. Maybe we can improve on that in a future version. Thanks for noticing.

 

As for the shuttle getting there, according to the codex, the Citadel maintains atmosphere in open spaces using a "membrane" of dense, colorless sulphur hexafluoride gas, held in place by carefully managed mass effect fields. As evidenced in the ME1 docking scene, ships like the Normandy can easily pass through.

As for finding Shepard, the shuttle (or the Normandy itself) routinely pick Shepard up very quickly at unexpected places, so I would assume that they can pinpoint his location accurately. Given that this technology already exists today, I don't see a problem for them to do it in 2186.

 

And about the crucible charging time, the entire thing is quite literally a black box (well, sphere actually), so the time it needs to charge before firing is quite arbitrary. You can say it takes longer than it did in the original ending but since these are basically different stories, I think I am free to choose my own charging time and it just happens to be long enough for them to get Shep out of there. Convenient? Yes. Plot hole? No.

 

Also, we probably should tone it down n the MEHEM discussion since the mods have been pretty quick to lock threads that do so outside of the modding (now fan creation) section. So if there are any more issues, specific to the mod, feel free to post in the MEHEM thread and I'll be happy to discuss. Always looking for feedback and suggestions for improvements.

 

So back to the endings:

@fraggle:

First of all, I am really happy if you can find an interpretation of the original ending that works for you, especially as far as the premise is concerned. Unfortunately, for me it still doesn't work because I always (even long before I saw the ending for the first time) viewed it as a b-plot, an important one to be sure but it was a b-plot in my mind, similar to the whole genophage issue. Yes, we fight a lot of synthetics but we also fight a lot of organics (and we even fight them with synthetics at our side). Oh, and just by the way, you can resolve rannoch without choosing a side. After all, you can promote piece.

I get where you are coming from with your interpretation but I simply don't see it executed very well in the story.

 

As for the catalyst shutting down the crucible, how else would it happen in refuse? During the EC, you can hang out in the decision chamber as long as you like, it never shuts down on it's own. The only way to destroy the crucible now is to walk towards one ending and then go back. The reason the devs prevent you from doing this is because they need to start streaming in the ending cutscenes already before you make the choice, so they can't let you go back. In the video you linked he is walking away from the control ending. But even if we postulate that time is limited, the mission failure screen doesn't say the crucible shut down, it says that it is destroyed. So the reapers are still attacking it? So the catalyst (the combined intelligence of all reapers) does want to prevent Shepard from choosing after all? How does that make sense? Is there a communication lag? Ok, so let's say the crucible is destroyed by an internal overload that we don't see (except for the beam shutting down) and that happens only if Shepard goes near it and back or if he refuses ... or something like that. I hope you see why I came to the conclusion that it had to be shut down on purpose and there is no one else there than the Catalyst who does after saying "So be it" with a reaper voice.

 

And here we come to another point of interest which I should have added to my list in the first place 2f) Te catalyst contradicts itself in describing the crucible and itself. At one point, it's just a power source (so we built a better power source than the reapers have?) later, it is some sort of device that changed the catalyst itself. But then, it is Shepard who "changed the variables". All of this is so vague that you can find loopholes that knit some threads of this dialogue back together but than you will loose others. As much as I'd like to see some intellectual masterpiece in this conversation, I think there are too many blanks here, that need to be filled in by the audience. Allowing some interpretation is fine but here, so much is left to the interpretation that any discussion on the subject will eventually run in circles (believe me, I have tried on these forums many many times).

 

Which brings me to my next point: You say there is no reason to argue with the Catalyst or to question him further and more thoroughly. Why not? Even if I would hypothetically concede to your interpretation and say that all this comes from the crucible, we only have the catalysts word to know that these are our options. Why should my Shepard believe all of this the way he does? And even if he believes it, the conversation is so vague that I felt that Shepard should have had a few more questions like "Why can't we do this instead?". I am not saying that Shep should be able to pull a Kirk vs. Nomad here but there is no way to even try. Does he even ask the question "Hey, we proved we can handle it, how about you guys just stop now?" I am not saying it has to work (although at this point, I don't see why not either), I am just saying that it should have come up in the discussion (among many other points).

 

The reaction of the crew and the memorial. As I said, there is not necessarily a logical inconsistency here, it's more something that I don't like on an emotional level. On the memorial, Shepard "died" before, I'd think they'd hold off until they see a body and focus on repairing the ship and get back to the scene first. It's just looks like they give up very quickly and willingly. Matter of taste all the way here though.

 

The breath scene: If you want to tell me that it was supposed to be clear that Shep is coming out of this, than I say, show me, don't tell me and if you tell me, at least tell me in the game and not on twitter. If not, I still consider it to Schroedinger's Shepard.

I haven't seen Sopranos, all I know is that they said they wanted to end Shepard's story once and for all here and having this scene just before the credits is not that.

 

TIM doesn't mess with Shepard's mind when he makes him shoot Anderson, Shep is horrified (look at his face). He simply controls his body like a puppet. That is not indoctrination. But yea, maybe TIM found that power somehow as well. It still fits into point 7 (which is small logical fallacies and unexplained weirdness).

 

 

It's - again - important to note that a lot of these single points can be explained with lots and lots of headcannon. It's the sum of them that ruins the endings for me. Individually or in small subsets, I might have been able to overlook them and enjoy the ending regardless. Sadly, they all come together to form a weird amalgamation which I perceive as a giant inconsistency.

 

Finally, let me reiterate and emphasize one thing: I am only replying here to explain my reasons for not liking the endings and for feeling the need to provide an option to change them. I do not want to use these arguments to convince anyone that the endings are bad. Everyone has to decide that for themselves.

[Tim van Beek]

Synergy is not HEA and that's why its BS to you.  Come on everything is identical except the secret weapon does synergy.  You actually prove my point.

This is scary. Are you the Catalyst?   Obviously you can read my mind, and do a better job at it than me, telling me about thoughts I'm thinking that I don't know anything about  . 

 

Thoughts that I know I definitly thought are put down in writing on this thread and tell a different story, but that is obviously now nullified  . (Or did you make me think them in order to embarras me? Did you bring up Total Recall for a reason? Oh gods...)

[Monica21]

I had thought that the Crucible was needed to "activate" the Catalyst, so to speak. Not that the Citadel wasn't his home and couldn't observe everything, but he was restrained from acting without the Crucible.

[Goodmongo]

Why should it be a projection? Sorry, but that makes no sense.

 

And that's why I posted the pictures of the place, because you can see there's nothing blocking the access to the platform Shepard stands on, unless it's solid transparent material, which we also have no proof of. Knowing Shepard's exact location, the only thing stopping the possible rescue are just your made up excuses.

 

If you think that they need masks, then it should be weird to you that Shepard doesn't die in the vanilla game while standing on that platform or while talking to the Catalyst. That's all vanilla. This universe, however, has technology to make barriers to keep breathable air in, just like it does in the Citadel docks, which is exactly why I put my pictures here to suggest it as a possible explanation, because, frankly, nobody knows for sure. Not me. Not you.

 

Again, as I said, we made it through the Collector ship, Collector base, Ilos, and other weird places. You're just trying to make the crew that could possibly make the pick up totally incompetent because it's convenient for your argument. The truth is we don't even know whether there's anything blocking the access to Shepard. MEHEM uses this idea. I don't use MEHEM, so I don't get this scene in my game, but I can't see a reason why it shouldn't be possible.
 

I knew I was going to regret talking at all. Funny how you're willing to invent a million reasons why an AI existing for billions of years that kills organics with synthetics so that they don't get killed by other synthetics is okay, but a shuttle pick up is totally unimaginable and unconvincing to you, not to even mention the ridiculous conclusions you draw from it. I can only shake my head.

 

Why not a projection?  Did TIM's HQ have this big red giant star just outside his window?

 

So what is keeping the air in if Shepard is out in the open?  Can he now breath the vacuum of space?  

 

Shepard doesn't die talking to the catalyst because he's NOT in space.  He's inside of the Citadel.  We have wall size monitors today yet this doesn't exist int he future?  Inside a bunker 100 feet down the military has projections of entire battlefields.  Not hard to do.

 

The landing of the Normandy shown in ME1 was a huge problem and still is.  ME3 got it right.  Yet you again prove the point.  It gives you a HEA where Shepard lives and just the bad guys are killed so no problem with the air thingy.  I something didn't have breathable air they wore the helmet and masks.  Ilos didn't need it because the Protheans lived there and breath the same type of air.  The collectors are Protheans and need air so why shouldn't the base have air?  It is you that is stretching the realm of believable to support your HEA.

 

And you clearly miss my point.  If you hated the original ending because of plot holes, bad writing, or unexplained things then you should still HATE this ending.  Almost all of that is still there.  But if you are more like me then you can accept both endings.  I'm just playing devil's advocate and pointing out how my thesis is being proved that HEA resolves all sins.

 

Yes, Mass Effect is powered by dark plotholes and ridiculous coincidences. 
 

Yes, that´s the original plan. What´s the point? It would make more sense to strike at the Citadel first instead of Earth? I agree. A lot of people agree.
 

The damn frigging boss of Sovereign is sitting right there in the Citadel. Sovereign shouldn´t be needed for opening the relays and Saren shouldn´t be needed for opening the arms if the frigging original OS of that thing is the actual Reaper master control program. Or the Reapers are stupid enough to put their controlling intelligence right there without anymeans to influence its environment. Why would he need a keeper to push the button? 

 
In TIM´s mind he is no Reaper servant but the one and only dude with enough vision to control the Reapers. To control the Reapers he thinks that he needs the Catalyst and the Crucible.  Did his Reaper handler tell him to go to the Citadel?

 

 

Yes because blasting something to kingdom come is still easier than rewriting DNA by attaching whatever.  This game was about killing the bad guys all the time. 

 

You know the only instance where I would be ok with the Catalyst showing up would be to hear him pleading and begging for mercy before I sent him to his red colored grave. T

 

If it was a plot hole before it should still be one now.  But HEA allows people to forget what issues they had.

 

The Citadel WAS attacked first.  It was ME1.  My point was why MOVE it to Earth.  Logically only TIM could have tipped them off.  Why did he go to the Citadel to tip them off?  If the Citadel wasn't a catalyst controlling the Reapers why even go there?

 

The Catalyst was the boss of Sovereign but not of the KEEPERS.  The keepers were needed to open close the arms.  The keepers were needed to run the stuff.  The catalyst was like the software but you needed a physical device (keepers) to actually do something.  That was all explained way back in ME1.  May I suggest you replay ME1 and especially Ilos.  You may not like it but it was explained in detail exactly why Saren was needed.  And this is why the catalyst needs Shepard to actually pick and start the crucible.

 

TIM's mind?  He's indoctrinated.  He'll believe whatever they want.  Sorry but that was really lame.  The answer to your question is a resounding YES.  They told him to go there.  They told Saren to go there.  They tell all indoctrinated beings what to do.

 

Thanks more HEA proof.  Have to kill the bad guys or the ending sucks.  And you provided even more proof.  Include the catalyst AI as long as the bad guys die.  HEA till the end.

 

I actually tried to do it this way. In fact, I wanted all three options to be there. I wanted Shepard to actually reach the console, than maybe have some interface with test explaining the options or something like it (never finished thinking it all through) and then the player could choose. 

 

As for the shuttle getting there, according to the codex, the Citadel maintains atmosphere in open spaces using a "membrane" of dense, colorless sulphur hexafluoride gas, held in place by carefully managed mass effect fields. As evidenced in the ME1 docking scene, ships like the Normandy can easily pass through.

As for finding Shepard, the shuttle (or the Normandy itself) routinely pick Shepard up very quickly at unexpected places, so I would assume that they can pinpoint his location accurately. Given that this technology already exists today, I don't see a problem for them to do it in 2186.

 

And about the crucible charging time, the entire thing is quite literally a black box (well, sphere actually), so the time it needs to charge before firing is quite arbitrary. You can say it takes longer than it did in the original ending but since these are basically different stories, I think I am free to choose my own charging time and it just happens to be long enough for them to get Shep out of there. Convenient? Yes. Plot hole? No.

 

Also, we probably should tone it down n the MEHEM discussion since the mods have been pretty quick to lock threads that do so outside of the modding (now fan creation) section. So if there are any more issues, specific to the mod, feel free to post in the MEHEM thread and I'll be happy to discuss. Always looking for feedback and suggestions for improvements.

 

First off I want to thank you for the mod.  Secondly, I liked the mod.  I also liked the original ending.  I'm not picking on the mod but instead trying to highlight that many people like it simply because it's HEA.  I bet if you added the other two endings people would go ape and complain.  

 

BW had an issue with the Normandy docking in ME1.  That was why all docking changed in ME2 and ME3.  ME1 had a number of these issues including the boss fight.  How can a big chuck smash into the council area but have no air escaping.  But Shepard needed his helmet when he left the elevator so it's clear there was no air out there.  So they made changes in ME2 and ME3 to account for it.

 

In every other situation that Shepard was picked up at he was outside or at a loading/docking area.  Not once was he ever picked up inside a close area.  I have no problem with space magic and it's space magic here.  But many said they hate the BW endings because it had space magic.

 

Convenience at a certain level = space magic = plot hole.   Having exactly the right amount of time to rescue Shepard while the Normandy is being attacked and somehow never hit by a Reaper beam is a high level of convenience.  The collectors easily targeted and hit the original Normandy.  That is why time is critical here.  And you have tow competing time arrows.  In one things have to happen very fast else the Normandy is destroyed.  But in the other you need more time.  It will take some time to rescue Shepard.  Just flying the shuttle to and from the Normandy is going to take time.

 

As I said I don't have an issue because it's Sci-Fi and I don't have an issue with it.  But if someone doesn't like the BW endings because of spcae magic then they should apply that very same level of criteria to all endings.  But we know they don't and it's because your ending happens to be a HEA one.

 

Once again thanks for the hard work.  This is NOT a criticism of your work. 

[MrFob]

Not to derail the thread but can you give me a source for where the writers said that they had a problem with the ME1 docking scene? I never heard of it and the explanation for why it all works is in the codex. It's even said that an atmosphere is maintained above the wards to a height of 7 meters and above that, buildings need to sealed (which is why in ME2, when we are in a building on level 27, we cannot go outside). In ME3's Citadel DLC we are also on the outside of the docking bay.

Why wouldn't that same technology be used in the TIM confrontation room? It never occurred to me that the backdrop it might be a projection. Where does this idea come from? Do you think the decision chamber in the original ending is also a projection? But the parts of the crucible that we interact with, such as the beam, the tube and the control levers are real? I am confused.

Even if some writers said that they didn't like the whole gas+ME field idea (for whatever reason, I actually think it's kinda cool stuff so please show me a source) it's still established techl in the game.

 

I mean, I can understand that you COULD say that the TIM chamber is indoors with projections or whatever if you really wanted to but you certainly don't have to.

Still don't see the space magic, sorry.

 

Oh, and about the Normandy lasting long enough, it's in the fight even longer in the original ending. I cut the catalyst conversation, remember?That's almost 15 minutes less of beam dodging for Joker in MEHEM than in the original endings. Yes, they do have to wait for the shuttle, which makes it a close call. That's sort of the basis of an action packed climax.

 

Aaaaand we should really take this to the MEHEM thread, I think.

[themikefest]

In every other situation that Shepard was picked up at he was outside or at a loading/docking area.  Not once was he ever picked up inside a close area.  I have no problem with space magic and it's space magic here.  But many said they hate the BW endings because it had space magic.

What about the mining facility in Leviathan? The shuttle is seen flying through the barrier to drop off Shepard and squad. Of course Shepard isn't seen getting back on the shuttle, but I would guess he/she went back to the same spot he/she was dropped off.

[fraggle]

In the video you linked he is walking away from the control ending. But even if we postulate that time is limited, the mission failure screen doesn't say the crucible shut down, it says that it is destroyed. So the reapers are still attacking it? So the catalyst (the combined intelligence of all reapers) does want to prevent Shepard from choosing after all? How does that make sense? Is there a communication lag?

 

And here we come to another point of interest which I should have added to my list in the first place 2f) Te catalyst contradicts itself in describing the crucible and itself. At one point, it's just a power source (so we built a better power source than the reapers have?) later, it is some sort of device that changed the catalyst itself. But then, it is Shepard who "changed the variables". All of this is so vague that you can find loopholes that knit some threads of this dialogue back together but than you will loose others. As much as I'd like to see some intellectual masterpiece in this conversation, I think there are too many blanks here, that need to be filled in by the audience. Allowing some interpretation is fine but here, so much is left to the interpretation that any discussion on the subject will eventually run in circles (believe me, I have tried on these forums many many times).

 

Yes, I do see where you're coming from. I just see it that way that the Reapers actually are still trying to destroy the Crucible, simply because of how the EMS changes the Crucible outcome in-game. The less EMS gathered, the more the Crucible is attacked (and later damaged like the Catalyst says), shown before it docks. If you have high enough EMS, the Crucible is largely intact, which I like to think is because we have more fleets that distract the Reapers and keep them busy. I thought it would make sense for the Reapers to continue to attack if they can, because the Catalyst doesn't want the Crucible to dock, even with Synthesis possible. Because Shepard could still choose Destroy, which it definitely doesn't want, and Control for which it would also need to accept that someone else is running the show then.

 

I guess I do try too much to make sense of everything, because the ending provoked a big emotional reaction from me and I really liked that, and I loved to plunge deeper into it and try to connect the dots. I see however this is not for everyone

 

Which brings me to my next point: You say there is no reason to argue with the Catalyst or to question him further and more thoroughly. Why not? Even if I would hypothetically concede to your interpretation and say that all this comes from the crucible, we only have the catalysts word to know that these are our options. Why should my Shepard believe all of this the way he does? And even if he believes it, the conversation is so vague that I felt that Shepard should have had a few more questions like "Why can't we do this instead?". I am not saying that Shep should be able to pull a Kirk vs. Nomad here but there is no way to even try. Does he even ask the question "Hey, we proved we can handle it, how about you guys just stop now?" I am not saying it has to work (although at this point, I don't see why not either), I am just saying that it should have come up in the discussion (among many other points).

 

I posted this in another post today, I don't think Shepard needs to believe the Catalyst, he/she shows doubt.

Nowhere does Shepard say "Ooh, you're right!" to the Catalyst, quite the contrary. When the Catalyst says that the Reapers were the only solution, Shepard says "You said that before. But how do the Reapers solve anything?" Implying that Shepard asks "why are the Reapers attacking us right now when you claim this is your exact problem? Shouldn't we be at peace if they are your solution?"

The Catalyst then goes on explaining its equation and the organic/synthetic problem, that the Reapers preserve them before they are forever lost to this conflict, and Shepard does actually reject it, saying that they're at war with the Reapers right now. And after the Catalyst says that Reapers and organics might be in conflict, but that Reapers are not interested in war, Shepard doesn't really buy it, "I find that hard to believe.". That shows me that Shepard isn't really convinced about this problem or the solution to it. And then finally when Shepard says that the Catalyst is taking away their future and hope, it sounds to me as if Shepard does say here we can take care of ourselves. Why do we need the Reapers?

At least it could be interpreted that way I believe.

 

The reaction of the crew and the memorial. As I said, there is not necessarily a logical inconsistency here, it's more something that I don't like on an emotional level. On the memorial, Shepard "died" before, I'd think they'd hold off until they see a body and focus on repairing the ship and get back to the scene first. It's just looks like they give up very quickly and willingly. Matter of taste all the way here though.

 

Ah, I think I misunderstood this one then Tbh I could've done without it, too, but it does give hope to those who have a LI that Shepard will be found alive. It's ok though, I can definitely live with that scene, haha.

 

The breath scene: If you want to tell me that it was supposed to be clear that Shep is coming out of this, than I say, show me, don't tell me and if you tell me, at least tell me in the game and not on twitter. If not, I still consider it to Schroedinger's Shepard.

I haven't seen Sopranos, all I know is that they said they wanted to end Shepard's story once and for all here and having this scene just before the credits is not that.

 

Maybe I saw it differently because for me it's kinda a "video game rule" that if players go to lengths to collect all that EMS, and even play Multiplayer in order to reach the EMS for Shepard to live pre-EC, he or she is rewarded. A reward for me is that Shepard lives/a secret ending/teaser/whatever like in other video games.

 

TIM doesn't mess with Shepard's mind when he makes him shoot Anderson, Shep is horrified (look at his face). He simply controls his body like a puppet. That is not indoctrination. But yea, maybe TIM found that power somehow as well. It still fits into point 7 (which is small logical fallacies and unexplained weirdness).

 

I had assumed they had managed to control organics like that. Could of course be wrong We don't know how exactly the Reaper signal was used I think?

 

It's - again - important to note that a lot of these single points can be explained with lots and lots of headcannon. It's the sum of them that ruins the endings for me. Individually or in small subsets, I might have been able to overlook them and enjoy the ending regardless. Sadly, they all come together to form a weird amalgamation which I perceive as a giant inconsistency.

 

I can understand that and see why you feel that way. I guess a lot of people work differently with what we got, and that's completely fine. I feel like I explained my main reason for trying to make the ending work. It means something to me and I enjoyed picking apart dialogues and scenes in order to support ideas. But I do get you.

 

Finally, let me reiterate and emphasize one thing: I am only replying here to explain my reasons for not liking the endings and for feeling the need to provide an option to change them. I do not want to use these arguments to convince anyone that the endings are bad. Everyone has to decide that for themselves.

 

I agree of course. A lot of it is personal taste after all, too. But I really like discussing stuff with people to throw in more ideas etc., especially with people like you with who you can have a proper discussion and not just bash each other. It's true what you say though, if both parties have a complete different perception of the game then we go in circles. I'm happy to agree to disagree here now

[Vanilka]

Why not a projection? Did TIM's HQ have this big red giant star just outside his window?

Why couldn't he have a window in his office? Windows are a thing that exists. Why should it be a projection? I'm not saying it isn't. But I don't know why it couldn't be a window. Space shuttles that are used nowadays also have windows. So I don't think windows in space and in future are such a crazy concept.

 

So what is keeping the air in if Shepard is out in the open? Can he now breath the vacuum of space?

I have already mentioned it at least two times. So has MrFob. Please, go back and reread. Repeating oneself gets tiring.
 

Shepard doesn't die talking to the catalyst because he's NOT in space. He's inside of the Citadel.

Shepard is also inside of the Citadel during the confrontation with TIM. That's where the shuttle lands in MEHEM. I didn't notice TIM, Anderson, or Shepard choking or dying in the vanilla game. (EDIT: At least not from the lack of air anyway, lol.)
 

We have wall size monitors today yet this doesn't exist int he future? Inside a bunker 100 feet down the military has projections of entire battlefields. Not hard to do.

I never said they don't exist. I just don't understand why you think the Citadel opening should be just a projection and not the real thing. That's also not the first time we've seen it first-hand.
 

The landing of the Normandy shown in ME1 was a huge problem and still is. ME3 got it right.

Nobody is talking about the Normandy. I even specifically mentioned the Kodiak shuttle. Please, reread.
 

Yet you again prove the point. It gives you a HEA where Shepard lives and just the bad guys are killed so no problem with the air thingy.

I don't even use MEHEM. I also said so. Please, reread and stop forcing your opinion on everyone. Especially since your conclusion is this absurd and based on logical fallacies. It's not like I've written several posts about what I think is problematic about the ending or anything.   
 

I something didn't have breathable air they wore the helmet and masks. Ilos didn't need it because the Protheans lived there and breath the same type of air. The collectors are Protheans and need air so why shouldn't the base have air? It is you that is stretching the realm of believable to support your HEA.

We dealt with the air issue several posts ago. Please, reread and stop drawing ridiculous conclusions that have nothing to do with anything. To you basically everything is the proof people want HEA. I'm... like... afraid to even sneeze because I might prove HEA is real now.
 

And you clearly miss my point. If you hated the original ending because of plot holes, bad writing, or unexplained things then you should still HATE this ending. Almost all of that is still there. But if you are more like me then you can accept both endings. I'm just playing devil's advocate and pointing out how my thesis is being proved that HEA resolves all sins.

There's a big difference between a crapton of plotholes and a few plotholes. (And plotholes aren't the only problem with the original ending. By far.) Nobody here has said that MEHEM and its alternatives fix everything. It is even extensively explained why this isn't even possible even if they wanted to. Have you ever tried to mod ME3? Because I have and it's freaking hard to learn even really simple looking things. Especially when you're not a game dev yourself. There are things that you cannot change no matter what. Or at least nobody has figured out how to do that properly so far. Or at all. With limited options and limited resources, barely any proper tools, there's only so much anyone can do. And despite that, people still managed to fix many things. Like the bullshit called the Catalyst, as far as I am concerned. The fact some mods delete the character is the major selling point for me. Removing the Catalyst fixes many things like random deus ex machinas appearing at the very end of the game, switch of the central conflict, ruining the game's themes, existence of bullshit options like synthesis, etc. But I have explained all that and more already. As I said, repeating myself is tiring. It's all in this thread. (BTW, when I don't have any of those mods installed, I just go make coffee when the elevator starts lifting Shepard to the Catalyst's chamber. I love the conversation with it that much.)

 

Yet again, I don't even use MEHEM. I do not get most of what you've seen in the videos, so keep your HEA to yourself. Please, reread. Everything. Twice.

But I see you're basically not interested in our opinions at all. You're just interested in being right at all costs - no matter whether you truly are or not. Yet again, you're dismissing everyone's opinions. Hell, you're even dismissing facts people give you. Either that or you just straight up ignore them. The thing with air being an example - at least two people have already explained this.

[Goodmongo]

 

Nobody is talking about the Normandy. I even specifically mentioned the Kodiak shuttle. Please, reread.
 

 

Maybe you need to reread the thread and posts.  You clearly missed this:

 

 

 As evidenced in the ME1 docking scene, ships like the Normandy can easily pass through.

 

 

Unless you are saying Mr.Fob is nobody.

[Vanilka]

Maybe you need to reread the thread and posts.  You clearly missed this:

 

 

Unless you are saying Mr.Fob is nobody.

 

And that proves what exactly? Have you paid attention to the video? The Normandy doesn't pick Shepard up. The Normandy flies into the Citadel. But Shepard gets picked up by the Kodiak shuttle.

 

https://youtu.be/yTPQgGfx9HI?t=1m56s

[Dantriges]

If it was a plot hole before it should still be one now.

Ehm yes and the whole debate with TIM isn´t part of the mod. It can´t be because you can´t mod the dialogue wheel or do voiceovers without using voices of other people.
 

The Citadel WAS attacked first.  It was ME1.  My point was why MOVE it to Earth.  Logically only TIM could have tipped them off.  Why did he go to the Citadel to tip them off?  If the Citadel wasn't a catalyst controlling the Reapers why even go there?

 
Ah you meant the attack in ME 1. Because the Citadel itself is the catalyst? TIM like Saren still had some autonomy. Saren was able to research indoctrination as did TIM.
 

The Catalyst was the boss of Sovereign but not of the KEEPERS.  The keepers were needed to open close the arms.  The keepers were needed to run the stuff.  The catalyst was like the software but you needed a physical device (keepers) to actually do something.  That was all explained way back in ME1.  May I suggest you replay ME1 and especially Ilos.  You may not like it but it was explained in detail exactly why Saren was needed.  And this is why the catalyst needs Shepard to actually pick and start the crucible.

Oh my...
Yes it was explained like this in ME 1. And it made sense. Mostly. So the Reapers or more specifically Sovereign orders the Keeper to push a button on a computer console that executes computer commands to open the arms. That´s part of the plot of ME 1. In ME 3 the Catalyst is in the computer system of the Citadel. It doesn´t need the Keepers to push a button, because it can issue the command itself. It´s inside the hardware and perhaps even part of the software that the Keepers use to issue the command to open the arms. The Keepers use user interfaces to issue the open/close command, the council uses a user interface to issue the close/open command so that the computer system executes the necessary steps to open/close the arms. The catalyst is sitting in the very same system the Keepers operate via their user interfaces to open/close the arms. Even if it´s somewhere else, did the Reapers forget to install a landline or a communicator?

An example. A virus doesn´t need you to push a button to execute its code. Yeah ok, perhaps you need to click something so it can enter but the Catalyst is already there, he has always been there.

The Crucible is a different device. It wasn´t an integral part of the Citadel for millions of years. And the Catalyst is not its designer. it´s freshly built and somehow it´s understandable that the Catalyst is unable to activate it. But the Reapers built the Citadel from scratch, they developed its OS, they didn´t buy it from Leviathasoft. And they got the bright idea to house their boss there and that it should be unable to operate the systems of their honeypot even in an emergency or when the stars are right so the Reapers darken the skies once more.

 

So yes I know what happened in ME 1. We also discover in ME 3 that there was another reaper entity there for the whole time. While Sovereign plotted for centuries how to get to the Citadel, his boss was sitting right there.

There are some possible explanations but the writers never bothered to explain why the opening sequence had to be done this way in ME 1 and what the catalyst was doing while Sovereign was sitting on the tower.
 

Thanks more HEA proof.  Have to kill the bad guys or the ending sucks.  And you provided even more proof.  Include the catalyst AI as long as the bad guys die.  HEA till the end.

So your line of reasoning is:
The forum user named Dantriges uses MEHEM + Dantriges said that he likes to kill the bad guys.
-> Dantriges likes a HEA and wants Shepard to live even when he denies it
-> Because Dantriges likes a HEA which you deduced because of your awesome grasp of logic+Dantriges criticises the ending
-> All ending critics like a HEA
-> Proof for HEA. Everyone who criticises the endings and who says something else is deluded.

[ImaginaryMatter]

The bigger problem with introducing the sacrifice theme for this game isn't that particular theme necessarily, it is that they didn't properly address themes that were introduced and developed through the previous two games.

 

I don't know how the Walking Dead ends, but the T800 in T2 isn't exactly the hero in the same vein as Shepard.  It would be more like sacrificing Garrus, Ash or even EDI in ME3 (one of which you can do potentially, despite the potential lack of logic).

 

The problem I always had with the sacrifice theme is -- that for the choices the player has control over -- sacrificing something is almost always a sub-optimal result. "Victory through sacrifice" rings hollow when sacrifice is usually the "bad" outcome and thus the player tends to steer clear of those choices. I guess it's something that exists in the script but not the game as a whole.

[Rhaenyss]

For people who have a problem with Catalyst being on Citadel, just throwing some headcanons -- maybe the Catalyst can't act because organics built it and made sure to restrict his programming & it still can't break free. He found a way around it by building the reapers who are basically his extension in the physical world & who in turn build the reaper army that sets the whole thing in motion. The AI was pretty confident, but from the whole conversation you could tell that he can't really do anything and needs Shepard to push buttons for him.

 

As for the Keepers, I think it was explained that they evolved into being completely independent of outside sources, even the reapers can't control them?

[Dantriges]

It can raise platforms and walkways just fine.

Its first sentences are I am the Catalyst. The Citadel is my home. The Citadel is part of me.

The Crucible isn´t part of him or his home or both at the same time.

 

Yeah it could be telling crap or lie but that opens another can of worms.

You don´t need a human to push a button if you have your own virtual button or if you are the button or the machine that the button turns on.

It can be explained, perhaps not well but it´s possible.

But well...

"Hi, we just raised a lot of questions about the main plot of the complete first third of our trilogy with the introduction of this NPC. Not some minor sidequest or so. The complete first game. No you can´t ask the NPC about it, there is no time for that because of reasons. Please use your own imagination to fill in the blanks, k thx, bye."

[Rhaenyss]

Maybe he can do only limited stuff? Idk, lifting a platform seems pretty minor. I mean, if Citadel is his home, he was probably put there by its creators. Leviathans were arrogant, but hopefully not that stupid to give him full control. We don't know the whole truth of course, and it's also possible that he would bypass those limits given time, I'm just throwing some ideas.

[themikefest]

If the platforms were part of the crucible, I would believe they would be raised before Shepard encounters the catalyst. They're only raised after talking with it so Shepard can choose an ending.

 

The other thing is how is the catalyst able to shut off the crucible if refuse is chosen? Or did it just shut off that part of the citadel that makes the crucible not work?

[Linkenski]

The complaints about Anderson always made me go "meh", since it's clearly an inconsistency due to mismatching visualization of the writing and not really Mac's own fault I don't think.

 

It's kind of like playing a text-heavy game like Ace Attorney or Hotel Dusk when you have to imagine how it's supposed to look if it was real.

 

I get that ME3 looks very convincing throughout most parts and that Bioware CAN communicate the writing better than what they did towards the ending, but I get the intent just by looking at the content right then and there, I don't care.

 

Also, the "OMG, unlimited ammo must mean something" was also really dumb to me, but I played on PC where you could reload despite of the unlimited ammo, so I guess that's unfair.

 

 

Maybe he can do only limited stuff? Idk, lifting a platform seems pretty minor. I mean, if Citadel is his home, he was probably put there by its creators. Leviathans were arrogant, but hopefully not that stupid to give him full control. We don't know the whole truth of course, and it's also possible that he would bypass those limits given time, I'm just throwing some ideas.

I find it sort of logical to compare the Reapers and the Citadel to EDI and the Normandy. If EDI is able to control some physical aspects of the Normandy, like opening doors or activating thrusters, then the Catalyst should be able to lift the elevator or, IDK, let the Reapers out of dark space way before ME3

[Goodmongo]

 

This is scary. Are you the Catalyst?    Obviously you can read my mind, and do a better job at it than me, telling me about thoughts I'm thinking that I don't know anything about   . 

 

Thoughts that I know I definitly thought are put down in writing on this thread and tell a different story, but that is obviously now nullified    . (Or did you make me think them in order to embarras me? Did you bring up Total Recall for a reason? Oh gods...)

 

 

Does thou protest too much?  I have no clue if my analysis applies to you or not.  If you say that having a HEA doesn't change your viewpoint then so be it.  It doesn't apply to you.  So if it doesn't apply why are you so defensive?  Just accept that it doesn't apply.