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[fraggle]

How can the Citadel support an Atmosphere when it is exposed to space, for that matter how can Omega support an atmosphere when exposed to space?  When the arms open on the citadel, gravity would have been lost.  Think of it as putting a marble on a spinning plate.  There would have been no gravitational pull to keep anyone on the wards at all, instead the gravity would be replaced by inertia, resulting in everyone on the arms been thrown into space in every ending.

 

Please correct me if I'm wrong because I really don't have that much knowledge about this topic, but doesn't that have to do with the eezo cores both the Citadel and Omega have, creating massive mass effect fields around them? And artificial gravity?

Wiki for Citadel:

Towers are sealed against vacuum, as the breathable atmosphere envelope is only maintained to a height of about seven meters. The atmosphere is contained by the centrifugal force of rotation and a "membrane" of dense, colorless sulphur hexafluoride gas, held in place by carefully managed mass effect fields.

[dorktainian]

Gravity?  From what I remember, Gravity is generated mainly by the mass of an object, but can also be generated by rotation.  Say for example Gravity on the wards was 1G due to the spinning of the citadel, the gravity on the presidium tower would be exponentially lower, you wouldn't be weightless but not far from it.  Gravity in itself is the force of attraction.  It pulls people onto the wards.  Gravity uniformly distributed around the arms, think of the concept of an O'Neil station.  A tin can in space.  The principle is the same.  The outer presidium ring would probably be ok, but the tower?

 

Gravity is also possibly one of the weakest universal forces, but has a massive influence on everything.  This includes spacetime and relativity.  Density also plays a part.  Remember space is infinite.  (think both outwards and inwards, remember density as well) The denser something is the more weight it exerts, therefore the greater effect it has gravitationally on spacetime and relativity.

 

The Citadel weighs a lot, as does Omega.  However you cannot imo equate this with holding an atmosphere.  It would be lost into the vacumm of space. 

 

Mass Effect fields?  If there are massive mass effect fields round the citadel and omega how can anything either enter or leave?  Surely they would act very much like a biotic shield?  I think they've jumped the shark on this one to be fair.

[fraggle]

Mass Effect fields?  If there are massive mass effect fields round the citadel and omega how can anything either enter or leave?  Surely they would act very much like a biotic shield?  I think they've jumped the shark on this one to be fair.

 

The derelict Reaper in ME 2 had a mass effect field around it and they could board it just fine, so I guess it works similar? Just passing through.

[Dantriges]

Science Fiction must be based on science, or theoretical science.  That's the point.  Star Trek is partially based on theoretical science.  Other Science Fiction Shows have done it the right way based on the current understanding of the laws of physics.  Apply that thinking to the ending and the shark has well and truly been jumped.

 

Which shows do you mean?   I tried to think of one that uses our current understanding of physics but the closest I got was Bab 5 and AFAIK hyperspace is not part of current day physics. And well quite a few species use antigravity.

 

I am genuinely curious, don´t want to bash your post or something.

[themikefest]

The derelict Reaper in ME 2 had a mass effect field around it and they could board it just fine, so I guess it works similar? Just passing through.

Also in the Leviathan dlc, the shuttle is seen going through the barrier with no problem at the mining facility

[MrFob]

Which shows do you mean?   I tried to think of one that uses our current understanding of physics but the closest I got was Bab 5 and AFAIK hyperspace is not part of current day physics. And well quite a few species use antigravity.

 

I am genuinely curious, don´t want to bash your post or something.

 

Same here. I can't think of any SciFi that doesn't involve some form of completely new technology or physical principle that isn't even theoretically researched yet (aka. space magic). Babylon 5 is about as bad as they come and Star Trek, well they try sometimes but they will never let science get in the way of the plot either. There may be some books out there that I don't know about and I hear that Interstellar makes a fairly good attempt (haven't seen the movie myself yet) but I have a hard time finding any examples here.

The best I can come up with are the first 2 seasons of ReGenesis (one of my favorite tv shows ever) but that's about it and even that series goes fairly crazy by season 3. Every SciFi, especially the ones involving space travel needs its green phlibotium (or whatever the trope is called) simply because FTL is theoretically impossible in this day and age and with our current knowladge.

 

So I disagree with dorktainian. It is established in the ME universe how atmosphere's are held in place (and the explanation is more elaborate than the one for force fields in Star Trek by the way) and how artificial gravity works (that's one of the easy ones with ME fields). Of course, the ME fields, depending on eezo are space magic but as I said before, that particular one is the basis of the entire fiction. It is as necessary to ME as dilithium crystals and subspace are to Star Trek, hyperspace is to Babylon 5 and atomic power was to the Foundation novels.

Why did I include the last? Because it shows how muddled tings can get. Asimov used a principle that was already established at the time of his writing in real science but he fictionalized it and used it for things that weren't even theoretically possible with it at that time or now. So despite the fact that atomic power is real, in the context of Asimov's novels, it is space magic. Does that make it bad SciFi? Of course not.

I think that again Tim van Beek nails it by invoking Tolkien's famous deliberations on magic within fiction. You have to set up rules and limitations for your magic (be it space magic or fantasy magic) and if you set up boundaries and limitations, than you have to stick to them or the immersion in the world will suffer.

[dorktainian]

Which shows do you mean?   I tried to think of one that uses our current understanding of physics but the closest I got was Bab 5 and AFAIK hyperspace is not part of current day physics. And well quite a few species use antigravity.

 

I am genuinely curious, don´t want to bash your post or something.

 

I was just thinking about B5.  I seem to remember JMS describing Hyperspace as being something like Parallel space.  Not quite a wormhole, more a system of gates linking to another dimension with it's own physics.  Like a spiders web across the universe that exists on another plane.  

 

As far as Science is concerned, It's probably as valid as Warp technology at the moment.  ( I believe the White star used Magnetic fields to generate gravity) Not really jumping the shark because multiverse theory absolutely exists, as does the use of magnetic fields to generate force. 

 

As with anything it's all open to interpretation.   Much like Mass effect, the Barriers, generating atmospheres, gravity etc....

 

Oh and don't forget the Collector base atmosphere wise.... The collectors don't need an atmoshere as they don't breathe.  Yet Shep and co can breathe for some plot reason.  Nice of the collectors to supply an oxygen rich atmosphere for him/her.

 

also.... Would not a barrier holding an atmosphere be critically compromised by the insertion / passing through of a ship of non descript size, much like a bubble is compromised by inserting a random shaped object due to loss of structural integrity?  

 

 

 

 

 

I could be wrong.....Beam me up scotty.

[Dantriges]

Same here. I can't think of any SciFi that doesn't involve some form of completely new technology or physical principle that isn't even theoretically researched yet (aka. space magic). Babylon 5 is about as bad as they come

 

Yeah, it was an example that jumped to mind when Dorktainian mentioned the law of gravity. its not hard sci fi at all, considering that you have soulhunters, proven cross species reincarnation, telepaths etc.

[Cyberstrike nTo]

Okay, personally I liked the ending of Mass Effect 3, though I can understand why many people had a problem with it. No real boss fight, similar endings, choices seem more negative than positive. But there is one thing I noticed in a lot of fan-fiction and a mod that create a "better" ending, which is that Shepard is alive and well. You mean, people actually had a problem with Shepard dying?

So let me get this straight: the Walking Dead, Lee dies, best ending ever. Terminator 2, T-800 dies, best ending ever. Mass Effect 3, Shepard dies, worst ending ever?

I mean, come on! One of the largest themes of the game was sacrifice and honoring the people who gave their life for the greater good. So why couldn't Shepard do it? He's the main hero of the game and is written as the savior of the Galaxy, so it's obvious that he would die for the Galaxy. Besides, if other movies or video games can get away with main characters dying, why not Mass Effect 3?

I don't know, maybe I'm missing something. Why don't you guys provide some opinions below.

 

It's because it's the end and some people hate goodbyes. 

[Goodmongo]

An issue was raised about how Shepard was needed to initiate an ending and why was TIM even there.  Well let me ask this.

 

During the ME series we learned that in previous cycles the Reapers first attacked and took control of the Citadel.  The keepers were used to trigger the process.  From the Citadel the Reapers could turn on and off various mass relays to isolate systems so the reapers could attack them one by one.  In ME1 we also learned that Saren was needed because the keepers no longer responded to commands.

 

So my question is this.  When TIM goes to the Citadel in it's original location the Reapers decide to close up the Citadel and move it to Earth.  This naturally leads to a few questions and observations:

 

1) TIM was clearly needed to close the arms just as Saren was.  So another data point that shows the Reapers and/or catalyst can't do things without outside help.

2) Now the big hole.  The Reapers (with or without the catalyst) clearly has control over the Citadel.  So why didn't the Reapers shut down the other mass relays like they did in previous cycles preventing the crucible from ever getting there?

 

Just even more space magic.  But I'm OK with space magic.

[Tim van Beek]

Shepard does survive in the destroy ending if you have enough EMS. Controlling or becoming one with the Reapers (synthesis) doesn't result in this.

 

If Shepard died in your playthrough you didn't destroy the Reapers or have enough EMS to do so.

 

I keep hearing it's because there wasn't some kind of heroic sacrifice, instead of Shepard just giving himself up to the Reapers without questioning or emotion. The extended cut does kind of expand on this. Shepard does question and he does have more emotion when speaking to the boy compared to the original ending.

Yes, I know. I don't think that the EC really solves the "why Shepard has to die the way he/she does" question.

 

Let's stay with the "Lord of the Rings" example, here is how it could be done:

 

Sam defeats Gollum, but the Ring lands on a rock down at the lava river. Frodo jumps down, knowing that he won't get a chance to get back up gain. There is limited time, Sauron knows of their presence. He grabs the Ring and yells to Sam "save yourself!".

"No Mister Frodo, I'm coming to you!"

"No Sam, there is no time!"

"I won't abandon you!"

"No Sam, I won't let you do this. Promise me to escape. Promise me to return home."

Frodo throws himself into the lava stream, to make Sam end his futile rescue attempt.

 

And here is how ME:3 would have done it:

A ghost appears: "Frodo, you must throw yourself into the lava. The ring will not be destroyed if you don't follow it!"

Frodo: "Why?"

Ghost: "There is too much of your spiritual energy in it, You have a connection. It won't go if you don't severe it. This can only be done by your death. And you must do it quickly, now, there is no time to question any of this!"

Frodo throws himself into the lava stream.

 

 

I was just thinking about B5.  I seem to remember JMS describing Hyperspace as being something like Parallel space.  Not quite a wormhole, more a system of gates linking to another dimension with it's own physics.  Like a spiders web across the universe that exists on another plane.  

 

As far as Science is concerned, It's probably as valid as Warp technology at the moment.  ( I believe the White star used Magnetic fields to generate gravity) Not really jumping the shark because multiverse theory absolutely exists, as does the use of magnetic fields to generate force. 

...

I think the buzz word you are looking for is "hard science fiction" (see https://en.wikipedia...science_fiction).

AFAIK there are no tv shows or movies that try that (yes, I would question the examples from Wikipedia like "Space Odyssey 2001", others wouldn't). And not many writers, either. It is hard to get the science right and even harder to get the audience interested . 

Neither Star Trek, nor Babylon 5, nor Mass Effect are hard science fiction nor were they ever intended to be.

A recent example is Andy Weir's "The Martian" (I have no affiliation with the author.).

[Goodmongo]

I think that again Tim van Beek nails it by invoking Tolkien's famous deliberations on magic within fiction. You have to set up rules and limitations for your magic (be it space magic or fantasy magic) and if you set up boundaries and limitations, than you have to stick to them or the immersion in the world will suffer.

 

For the most part but what about Tom?  And even Tolkien will play fast and loose with magic when necessary.  The mithril vest armor is one example.  It can prevent a puncture but not crushing his chest flat.  And why doesn't Gandalf use his magic more often when clearly he could?  Or why not call in the Eagles and be done with it all?  The answer is because we need a story.

 

Oh the army of the dead was big time fantasy magic.  But my point is even perhaps the single best fantasy story ever written needs to have magic, just like all Sci-Fi needs to have space magic. 

 

More over the top magic are the trees moving.  Ents can move but trees have never walked or moved before.

[Batarian Master Race]

The Catalyst believes that Destroy won't change anything. So keeping with the LOTR example, if you do throw the ring into the lava, Sauron will just make a new one in a few decades.

[Goodmongo]

The Catalyst believes that Destroy won't change anything. So keeping with the LOTR example, if you do throw the ring into the lava, Sauron will just make a new one in a few decades.

 

Well Sauron was defeated before and came back so It is within the realm of possibilities.  And since Sauron is immortal all you are doing is banishing him from Middle Earth.  After all that is exactly what happened to Gandolf.

[Iakus]

For the most part but what about Tom?  And even Tolkien will play fast and loose with magic when necessary.  The mithril vest armor is one example.  It can prevent a puncture but not crushing his chest flat.  And why doesn't Gandalf use his magic more often when clearly he could?  Or why not call in the Eagles and be done with it all?  The answer is because we need a story.

 

Oh the army of the dead was big time fantasy magic.  But my point is even perhaps the single best fantasy story ever written needs to have magic, just like all Sci-Fi needs to have space magic. 

Frodo was still hurt by the troll spear.  It just didn't gut him

 

Gandalf (and all Istari) were forbidden from bringing the full force of their power to bear against Sauron or his servants.  They were only supposed to provide advice (also why they all took the form of old men, rather than mighty warriors or somesuch).  Thus why the only time he completely unleashed was againt the balrog, and then it was offscreen.

 

The Eagles could carry them "far, but not to then ends of the world" as Gwaihir told Gandalf.  THeir range is still limited.  Not to mention Sauron would notice such an incursion anyway.

 

I may have read LotR a few times...

[Iakus]

 

I think that again Tim van Beek nails it by invoking Tolkien's famous deliberations on magic within fiction. You have to set up rules and limitations for your magic (be it space magic or fantasy magic) and if you set up boundaries and limitations, than you have to stick to them or the immersion in the world will suffer.

Or Sanderson's Three Laws.

[Goodmongo]

Frodo was still hurt by the troll spear.  It just didn't gut him

 

Gandalf (and all Istari) were forbidden from bringing the full force of their power to bear against Sauron or his servants.  They were only supposed to provide advice (also why they all took the form of old men, rather than mighty warriors or somesuch).  Thus why the only time he completely unleashed was againt the balrog, and then it was offscreen.

 

The Eagles could carry them "far, but not to then ends of the world" as Gwaihir told Gandalf.  THeir range is still limited.  Not to mention Sauron would notice such an incursion anyway.

 

I may have read LotR a few times...

 

The Eagles could stop and rest multiple times.  After all the Eagles picked up Frodo and carried him out of Mordor so we know they have at least that much range.  What's to stop the Eagles from flying to near the Black Gates, resting then going the last leg?  Nothing except it ruins the story.

 

The force itself could skewer a wild boar yet not cause any internal damage to a hobbit?  Sorry it's a hole that can't be explained away.

 

Where in the books did it say that Gandalf was ordered by Manwee or any of the higher beings not to bring his full force?  

 

What bout Tom then?

 

Ents can move but normal trees can't yet they do in one part.

 

But this is ME and not LoTR.  My point is valid that even great writing has completely unexplained magic and plot holes.  (To this day no one knows who or what Tom is or was).

[Monica21]

Same here. I can't think of any SciFi that doesn't involve some form of completely new technology or physical principle that isn't even theoretically researched yet (aka. space magic). Babylon 5 is about as bad as they come and Star Trek, well they try sometimes but they will never let science get in the way of the plot either. There may be some books out there that I don't know about and I hear that Interstellar makes a fairly good attempt (haven't seen the movie myself yet) but I have a hard time finding any examples here.

The best I can come up with are the first 2 seasons of ReGenesis (one of my favorite tv shows ever) but that's about it and even that series goes fairly crazy by season 3. Every SciFi, especially the ones involving space travel needs its green phlibotium (or whatever the trope is called) simply because FTL is theoretically impossible in this day and age and with our current knowledge.

 

Tim is right that The Martian is the closest thing you'll get to hard sci-fi, and even that gets things deliberately (and unknowingly) wrong for plot purposes. For example, the opening scene mentions a storm that is 175kph. The problem with that is that the Martian atmosphere is so thin that it would feel like a gentle breeze. And the author has said that he had to sacrifice realism for a dramatic plot point. The really good thing about The Martian though, is that the author has said that there is no science in the book that can't be achieved in the next thirty years, and that includes the ion engines and the fantastic space suits that offer a great deal of freedom of movement.

[Reorte]

The Eagles could stop and rest multiple times.  After all the Eagles picked up Frodo and carried him out of Mordor so we know they have at least that much range.  What's to stop the Eagles from flying to near the Black Gates, resting then going the last leg?  Nothing except it ruins the story.

 

The force itself could skewer a wild boar yet not cause any internal damage to a hobbit?  Sorry it's a hole that can't be explained away.

The eagles picking them up always did indeed seem like a problem. That something can give enough when hit to leave a nasty bruise but not get punctured doesn't though (although it may need the shirt to be a good fit).

 

On to the amount of magic, be it space magic or magic magic, stick to what's necessary to get the setting up and running (e.g. the setting needs some form of FTL travel and if you come up with a method that passes scrutiny then you've invented it for real, so will probably have other things on your mind than fiction), and whatever reasonably logical consequences follow. Any time something looks like it's been cooked up for a plot resolution you've failed. Drag something new out only at the time it's needed, well, that's really bad.

[AlanC9]

Ahhh, but in ME3 you aren't forced to jump into the beam or grab the power conduit if you don't want to. The option is there, but you can still destroy the Reapers if you wish. Nothing is forced upon you.

Except with low EMS and the Collector Base saved. In that situation it's either Control or Refuse.

[AlanC9]

also.... Would not a barrier holding an atmosphere be critically compromised by the insertion / passing through of a ship of non descript size, much like a bubble is compromised by inserting a random shaped object due to loss of structural integrity?

It didn't work like that in the Citadel's or the Death Star's docking bays -- the field just flows around the ship and maintains integrity. I believe TNG Trek and later works like this too. In TOS I believe it didn't --they had to depressurize the hangar deck to leave.

As for ITRW, who knows? So far these are a fantasy tech anyway.

[themikefest]

That's with the extended cut. From the original ending, if your EMS is really low, you only have destroy to choose from. Control doesn't open up until your EMS is higher than 1750. Synthesis doesn't open until 2800 EMS.

That's wrong. That only happens if the player is doing a default ME3 playthrough

 

If the base is saved in ME2, control will be the only ending choice if ems is below 1750

 

If the base is destroyed in ME2, destroy will be the only option if ems is below 1750