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The stupidest reason to hate the ending.


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#101
exile1478

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@AlanC9

 

The point is, in respect of the ending which is what this discussion is about,  they have absolutely no impact on what happens to Sheppard or the rest of the galaxy.
 
If fact decisions made in ME1 & 2 have little impact on the events of ME3 either. Choose to free the Raqni queen or kill her and you have to make the same decision all over again in ME3. Choose to forget about your ME1 love interest and start a new romance in ME2 and that is stripped away from you as ME2 characters are demoted to secondary roles.

 

My overall point is that Bioware said this would not end with push button 1,2 or 3 and that's exactly how it does end.

 

Regardless of whether you liked spending 30 minutes discussing the philosophy of AI with the master of the enemy while thousands upon thousands die in battle around you( this just doesn't seem like sheppard's style to me), it fails to deliver on the every choice matters.



#102
prosthetic soul

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Going by the likes I tend to get in my posts, and the amount of criticism your own get, I generally think that your view isn't really applicable to

Ah, resorting to the "it's right because it's more popular" logical fallacy I see.



#103
Monica21

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Ah, resorting to the "it's right because it's more popular" logical fallacy I see.

 

He is not presenting a logical argument. He's really just saying that you're wrong and you'll continue to be wrong and he's not the only one who's noticed it.

 

By the way, the fallacy you're looking for is "argumentum ad populum" so you can be ahead of the class in case you ever get around to taking that Logic course.


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#104
prosthetic soul

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He is not presenting a logical argument. He's really just saying that you're wrong and you'll continue to be wrong and he's not the only one who's noticed it.

 

By the way, the fallacy you're looking for is "argumentum ad populum" so you can be ahead of the class in case you ever get around to taking that Logic course.

How am I wrong though?  Because he says so?   So adorable how you and god think your opinions are fact. 

 

And who the **** cares what it's called?  It's still not a valid argument.   You two do nothing but make posts with smug superiority befitting people who don't have anything of any weight to say besides insulting others. 



#105
Monica21

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How am I wrong though?  Because he says so?   So adorable how you and god think your opinions are fact. 

 

And who the **** cares what it's called?  It's still not a valid argument.   You two do nothing but make posts with smug superiority befitting people who don't have anything of any weight to say besides insulting others. 

 

You're wrong because you're presenting your opinion as fact. You're wrong because you think the game isn't over because you didn't like it. You're wrong because you think Bioware should have made you happy with their story.

 

If you want to call it smug superiority then that's fine, but you will continue to be wrong.


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#106
AlanC9

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How am I wrong though?  Because he says so?   So adorable how you and god think your opinions are fact. 

Wait..... you're saying that they're treating their opinions as fact?

#107
AlanC9

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The point is, in respect of the ending which is what this discussion is about, they have absolutely no impact on what happens to Sheppard or the rest of the galaxy.


Besides their EMS contributions, that is. I agree that this was a fairly weak effect. I did have a Shepard once who would not have survived without betraying the krogan, but this isn't too common. There's a hard conceptual problem with integrating sidequests in this manner -- unless there's plenty of slack in the system non-completionist players might end up feeling punished. Dialogue has the same problem. (Personally, I think the real problem is sidequests themselves, but let's not open that can of worms.)

Choose to free the Raqni queen or kill her and you have to make the same decision all over again in ME3.


This isn't true. The choice in ME3 is different depending on which version of the queen you get; you're either choosing to free rachni or choosing to free indoctrinated Reaper slaves. Shepard can be stupid and think it's the same choice, but that doesn't go well.

Regardless of whether you liked spending 30 minutes discussing the philosophy of AI with the master of the enemy while thousands upon thousands die in battle around you( this just doesn't seem like sheppard's style to me), it fails to deliver on the every choice matters.


You're still not being very clear about what it means for a choice to "matter." Lots of screen time for the alternative paths?
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#108
fraggle

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I don't know, but does anybody really think that 10 or so minutes long rap battle between Shepard and TIM and then 10 or so minutes long information dump from the Catalyst, then crawling to pick red, blue, or green with subsequent slideshow is an appropriate ending for an action sci-fi RPG? Are there really people who play through it for the second... third... fourth etc. time and think, "This is so epic! This is so much fun! So much variation!" Because if yes, then I honestly envy them. Big time. I've replayed the games three times so far (and I love them) and ME1 and ME2, even if flawed, always make me feel like, "Hell, yeah!" at the end. I wanted to like ME3's endings so much, but I ended up most disappointed I've ever been over a game's ending when I got there, and they just keep feeling meh.

 

Uh, yeah, here :D For me it's the other way around. The endings of ME1 and 2 (the actual scene/boss fight, not the SM because that was indeed awesome) really bore me to a certain extent, while I love the whole atmosphere from when the beam hits Shepard. I wouldn't call it fun though. If anything, I felt the same as my Shepard. It's not a "Hell yeah" moment, but being relieved this war is over, that the Reapers are dealt with. But that's just me.

 

Instead, I was confused (What's going on? Why is there a new and omnipotent character introduced in the last minutes of the game? It's lazy.

 

The Catalyst was mentioned earlier by Vendetta, so that was a first hint that there might be something more behind the Reapers.

 

(BTW, I also love how the Catalyst tells us it's already failed a few times but, hey, it'll totes work this time.)

 

Well, if it fails this time, too, the Catalyst has lost nothing. It will just continue and work up to the point when it will eventually work. So why not tell us? It had years and years to study the concept of Synthesis, and just because we don't know how the Catalyst determines that it will work, it might actually does know.

 

Plus, why does the kid look what it looks like? Can it actually read people's mind or what? This made sense in the geth consensus. Here? Why? But, okay, let's say it can really read Shepard's mind, but then if it was done by the team to stir an emotional response, why pick the kid that Shepard saw that one time for like a minute? Why not pick Shepard's love interest? Or their friend? Anderson? Or copy Shepard's appearance? Same with the dreams. Did anybody actually care about the kid? I mean, it's so forced. We have zero connection to the child. We see so many people die, why should that one be special? Oh, no, wait, I forgot - it was the only child on the whole planet...

 

My theory is that the Catalyst uses the kid as appearance because it wants Shepard to trust it, trust the words it says.

And about the mind reading, the Reapers are the eyes of the Catalyst, aren't they? Maybe it has to do with the Leviathans as well. I don't think the mind-reading is too far-fetched, given what we've seen in the game I think it's entirely possible. A role of an "observer", if you will.

I don't care for the kid, I don't like kids in most videogames anyway, but for Shepard, it became a trigger, and a symbol. A symbol for everything and everyone he/she has lost up to this point and will loose thanks to this war. Maybe a symbol of lost innocence, too. A premonition of what is to come, the fear and doubt Shepard has, having to accept the fact Shepard can't save everyone.

I thought it was a nice touch.


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#109
Madrict

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They endings are awesome and thought provoking :D


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#110
Monica21

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This isn't true. The choice in ME3 is different depending on which version of the queen you get; you're either choosing to free rachni or choosing to free indoctrinated Reaper slaves. Shepard can be stupid and think it's the same choice, but that doesn't go well.

 

Oooo, now I'm definitely going to have to kill the Rachni queen my next ME1 playthrough.



#111
Vanilka

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Uh, yeah, here :D For me it's the other way around. The endings of ME1 and 2 (the actual scene/boss fight, not the SM because that was indeed awesome) really bore me to a certain extent, while I love the whole atmosphere from when the beam hits Shepard. I wouldn't call it fun though. If anything, I felt the same as my Shepard. It's not a "Hell yeah" moment, but being relieved this war is over, that the Reapers are dealt with. But that's just me.

 
Then I'm honestly jelly, because having played through it for the second and third time, I find it extremely tiresome. Although it is true that how something makes you feel is a matter of tastes. I think it's cool that different people can enjoy different kinds of experiences. I admit I still do not think having Shepard just stand around and talk - and it's not even them being able to do much talking - for the rest of the game is a good idea. Shepard basically becomes a tool and gets yanked around for the final several minutes and I find it upsetting and disrespectful towards the character. Especially when the writing goes downhill since the start of London and it takes a brutal nosedive on the Citadel. And I'm not talking about "I don't like it because it's lame and imo not epic." I'm talking plotholes, errors, retcons, stuff that objectively does not make sense, stuff that is never explained, stuff we discovered throughout the games that gets flushed down the toilet, etc. (I mentioned a few of these in my previous post. Although this kind of thing would be a subject for another really long post.)
 
I do respect the fact you like it, though. I'm glad not everybody got their experience ruined like I did. I really wish I could just stop questioning the nonsense I'm thrown at and the absolutely defenceless position I'm put in (By that, I mean that Shepard, while very possibly having plenty of good arguments to use, they are allowed to voice none. This is a roleplaying game most of the time giving the player decent options to do just that after all.) and enjoy it. I feel frustration.
 
But as you said, that's just me. What it makes me feel is insignificant, perhaps. But I'd be really grateful if BW learn from the mistakes they made and make sure their writing makes sense next time and that it doesn't contradict the story they tell the whole game, common sense, and the game's lore; so that they don't make the same mistake like, you know, deciding that ending the game with mass relays exploding is a cool thing to do when we have a whole several hours lasting DLC showing why that is not a good idea.

 

The Catalyst was mentioned earlier by Vendetta, so that was a first hint that there might be something more behind the Reapers.

 
I know that. They also tried to cover their butt with Leviathan. (Don't make me even start on their lack of brains.) But it was never properly introduced and we still get a completely new element introduced at the very end of the game and therefore we finish the game with a big info dump. Introducing a new character at the very end of a story is one of the huge DON'Ts of good storytelling and for a good reason. It more often than not feels cheap, creates confusion, and it's an easy way out when you don't know what to do with your story any more.
 
I, for one, was completely dumbfounded because the whole thing after Shepard faints feels like she's tripping balls which is also the reason the Indoctrination Theory was so popular. It makes more sense as a weird dream than Mass Effect universe's reality. Up to that point, the story was still trying to be realistic and sciency... and then suddenly the god comes down from the sky to say hi, talking dadaistic poetry, and then asks you to pick out of three doors and if you don't like that, you can go to hell. And I'm like, "What? What game is this?"

 

Well, if it fails this time, too, the Catalyst has lost nothing. It will just continue and work up to the point when it will eventually work. So why not tell us? It had years and years to study the concept of Synthesis, and just because we don't know how the Catalyst determines that it will work, it might actually does know.

 
Yes, but as I said before: People wrote those endings. Those people were tasked with creating a satisfying conclusion to a trilogy and to wrap things up, not to create more questions and inconsistencies. While I'm a big fan of good and bad endings both, this is simply not good enough. You're still making the player think, "Uh, okay, which of these things is going to hurt the galaxy the least?" It's not even about picking what's best and it's definitely not about winning. It's about the galaxy being held hostage and about Shepard picking the least damage possible with the options provided by a character whose thought patters are dogmatic, illogical, and based on what-ifs and generalisations we have proven wrong, a character we cannot in any way challenge like Shepard normally would. Given how wrong the character is in different areas of its expertise and reasoning, why should I trust it with synthesis?
 
Frankly, giving the player an option they earned with gathering as many war assets as they could and then making them feel like they might accidentally get a rifle up their butt doesn't sound like a good idea for what's supposed to be the best ending promoted by both the game and the Catalyst. Plus, as to why it didn't work before, "It is not something that can be... forced," is again not good enough. That's a cop-out if I've ever seen one. We're supposed to understand what we're doing and why by the end of a game. The only acceptable questions left after finishing should be love interest headcanon stuff, not whether we've doomed the galaxy or not.

 

My theory is that the Catalyst uses the kid as appearance because it wants Shepard to trust it, trust the words it says.
And about the mind reading, the Reapers are the eyes of the Catalyst, aren't they? Maybe it has to do with the Leviathans as well. I don't think the mind-reading is too far-fetched, given what we've seen in the game I think it's entirely possible. A role of an "observer", if you will.
I don't care for the kid, I don't like kids in most videogames anyway, but for Shepard, it became a trigger, and a symbol. A symbol for everything and everyone he/she has lost up to this point and will loose thanks to this war. Maybe a symbol of lost innocence, too. A premonition of what is to come, the fear and doubt Shepard has, having to accept the fact Shepard can't save everyone.
I thought it was a nice touch.


Good point. I might be willing to believe that. We don't really know what the Reapers are capable of exactly.
 
I agree it wasn't a bad idea as such, but that's why I asked whether anyone cared. This is a gameplay experience and if it makes the player feel nothing, does it really work? I get the symbolism, but that's about it. Then again, I admit this might be a matter of opinion. For me, it just didn't work. I also wonder how strongly renegade Sheps feel about having some random kid in their dreams.
 
 
Anyway, please, don't take it as me trying to persuade you to not like it. As I said before, I'm glad some people enjoy it all the way to the end and beyond. Not that I think I could persuade anyone here to change their mind anyway. Just letting this out of my system.


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#112
Rhaenyss

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The more I read all of your ending posts, the more I understand why some people found it wrong and bad. I honestly feel lucky that I've never had to experience it on my first playthrough. I didn't miss the last boss fight because I found that the 'Priority: Earth" gauntlet was challenging enough for me, and honestly it was more exciting for me than the suicide mission. Also the human reaper in ME2, I found it underwhelming & boring, waves of mobs were usually more difficult for me. So I was kind of relieved that the ending was more "story telling", and not more fighting, because it actually felt like an ending to me.

 

The other thing is the Starchild. In my frantic speed run at 2 am to finish the game, I never really questioned this character. It never occurred to me that he's a new character. The whole time I accepted him as a Reaper intelligence. As in -- Reapers are physical ships, and he is the AI behind it. And honestly, this is how I choose to headcanon it from now on, no matter the little discrepancies, if I were to analyse it in detail (as you all already did).

 

The ending -- I think it was a nice touch to have all endings on the same ground, it's just a matter of what kind of person you are and what are you willing to compromise. I like that it wasn't clear cut and 100% streamlined to paragon or renegade. I played the whole trilogy in one sitting, so I never really had any expectations as to what the ending should be, so it couldn't disappoint me as much as some people.

 

The only criticism I really had is the missing cut scenes in the final mission of all the people you recruited, that would've been nice. I didn't get the feeling that my choices didn't matter (because the whole ME3 was proving me wrong, the whole game was like a giant ending with all the pieces falling together), but some familiar appearances would've been nice.


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#113
fraggle

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Shepard basically becomes a tool and gets yanked around for the final several minutes and I find it upsetting and disrespectful towards the character.

 

(By that, I mean that Shepard, while very possibly having plenty of good arguments to use, they are allowed to voice none. This is a roleplaying game most of the time giving the player decent options to do just that after all.)

 

so that they don't make the same mistake like, you know, deciding that ending the game with mass relays exploding is a cool thing to do when we have a whole several hours lasting DLC showing why that is not a good idea.

 

Shepard does not really become a tool more than he/she already was. And I don't mean that in a negative way. But look at it like that. You are told a lot of things and have to do them, you have to accept orders from Hackett, go to Mars, get the plans, rally support for a device you have no clue about what it does. And in the end Shepard is just another component of the Crucible/Citadel complex.

I'd just say Shepard needs to work with what he/she's given. There's no alternative. The Crucible was always depicted as the last way out, and you got these 3 solutions out of the device (or 4 if EC is taken into account). There was nothing you could have done besides talking and asking questions.

 

I can see your point, but what would it have accomplished? Voicing an opinion would not have changed anything. The Catalyst wasn't responsible for the Crucible, or any of its solutions, it merely presented them. So even if you had the best arguments and the Catalyst would agree with them, it cannot change what the Crucible is doing. 

 

Well, this is something that falls under "matter of taste". I had no problem with the relays exploding (I played without Extended Cut first). While this ended in a lot of casualties, it felt like this was a new beginning too. A new era without Reapers where life can start anew.

 

Introducing a new character at the very end of a story is one of the huge DON'Ts of good storytelling and for a good reason. It more often than not feels cheap and it's an easy way out when you don't know what to do with your story any more.

 

I, for one, was completely dumbfounded because the whole thing after Shepard faints feels like she's tripping balls which is also the reason the Indoctrination Theory was so popular. It makes more sense as a weird dream than Mass Effect universe's reality. Up to that point, the story was still trying to be realistic and sciency... and then suddenly the god comes down from the sky to say hi, talking dadaistic poetry, and then asks you to pick out of three doors and if you don't like that, you can go to hell. And I'm like, "What? What game is this?"

 

Maybe that's why I don't have a problem with such things. I don't care about these Dont's. I really do not care, haha. It's the same with songs. Most of them use the typical "rule" of Verse-Chorus-Verse-Chorus-Bridge-Chorus etc. While that's fine, I also love songs that break this pattern, break the rules. I think storytelling or songwriting can be experimental sometimes, because why not? There's always gonna be someone who likes it.

Since Rhaenyss mentioned the "boss battle", let's take this as an example, too. I'm sure loads of people hated that we did not get a real end boss. But I loved it, it was refreshing, breaking the video game ending rules, and I know some people on the BSN here also liked it. Bioware liked it, or else they wouldn't have done it.

 

Mh, I have never perceived the Catalyst as a God. Just as an entity controlling the Reapers, with a purpose and its own reasoning. Much clearer after Leviathan though :D

But like I said before, it's not the Catalyst's fault we get these choices in the end, it was the Crucible.

 

It's not even about picking what's best and it's definitely not about winning. It's about the galaxy being held hostage and about Shepard picking the least damage possible with the options provided by a character whose thought patters are dogmatic, illogical, and based on what-ifs and generalisations we have proven wrong, a character we cannot in any way challenge like Shepard normally would. Given how wrong the character is in different areas of its expertise and reasoning, why should I trust it with synthesis?

 Frankly, giving the player an option they earned with gathering as many war assets as they could and then making them feel like they might accidentally get a rifle up their butt doesn't sound like a good idea for what's supposed to be the best ending promoted by both the game and the Catalyst. Plus, as to why it didn't work before, "It is not something that can be... forced," is again not good enough. That's a cop-out if I've ever seen one. We're supposed to understand what we're doing and why by the end of a game. The only acceptable questions left after finishing should be love interest headcanon stuff, not whether we've doomed the galaxy or not..

 

I thought that was the great thing in it. It's entirely up to the player if he/she trusts the Catalyst. Everyone has their own reasoning to trust or distrust it. I believed the Catalyst would present me the choices I had to its best knowledge, it didn't strike me as a liar. What it definitely wanted was the player picking Synthesis, yes. But it's up to the player to do that. Everything's valid.

 

Why is "it is not something that can be forced" not good enough? In order to unite the galaxy, to unite Organics and Synthetics, you have to be an open-minded individual. My take on it is that Shepard's very essence, so who he/she is, his/her desires or beliefs are what's necessary in order for this to work. That this essence can be spread with the help of the Citadel and the Crucible's energy. Yes, it sounds like space magic, it is space magic, and I don't want to defend Synthesis. I don't like how it's turning out, but I do like the concept, it's interesting to me.

Again, that's me, but I like endings that aren't black and white, endings that are open for interpretation, endings where you can speculate with others what is going to happen. It is not for everyone, and I accept that many people do not like this kind of stuff, but to say it's bad because of this is the same as if me saying an ending is bad because I got it spelled out in front of me. Imo.

 

I agree it wasn't a bad idea as such, but that's why I asked whether anyone cared. This is a gameplay experience and if it makes the player feel nothing, does it really work? I get the symbolism, but that's about it. Then again, I admit this might be a matter of opinion. For me, it just didn't work.

 

I guess that's really a matter of opinion. Stuff like this works for some folks, while doing nothing for others. I think we should just keep in mind that when someone creates something, it can never appeal to everyone, and that's okay :)

 

Anyway, please, don't take it as me trying to persuade you to not like it. As I said before, I'm glad some people enjoy it all the way to the end and beyond. Not that I think I could persuade anyone here to change their mind anyway. Just letting this out of my system.

 

No worries :) I always try to respect everyone's opinion and you have your valid reasons for not liking it, I have mine to like it. So we can just agree to disagree :D


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#114
Dantriges

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Shepard does not really become a tool more than he/she already was. And I don't mean that in a negative way. But look at it like that. You are told a lot of things and have to do them, you have to accept orders from Hackett, go to Mars, get the plans, rally support for a device you have no clue about what it does. And in the end Shepard is just another component of the Crucible/Citadel complex.

I'd just say Shepard needs to work with what he/she's given. There's no alternative. The Crucible was always depicted as the last way out, and you got these 3 solutions out of the device (or 4 if EC is taken into account). There was nothing you could have done besides talking and asking questions.

 

Your examples are all from ME 3 and I have to agree, you were told quite a few things. It was more obvious in the third part where it felt a lot like BW grabbed your keyboard and turned you more into a spectator. They were better at making you feel like an actual participant in the first two parts. Yeah you still have to follow a linear plot but even in PnP RPG which is the most open kind of RPG you can get, you often follow a more or less linear plot, unless you are completely sandboxing. This is because an adventure still requires some kind of prep work for the vast majority of DMs you get. And a computer game is obviously more constrained of course.

 

Or in short, in the first two parts, I felt like an participant, it´s an illusion but it still felt like it. You had to do certain things of course to advance the plot but you had quite a bit of freedom in how to do it and change quite a lot of the details. In ME 3 there were enough scenes where I felt like a passive consumer and that my participation isn´t really wanted. And at least I had some choice on how to feel about stuff that happened.

 

You can probably find some counter examples in the first two games (like have to work for Cerberus), but I think we can agree that ME 3 was doing it a lot more.


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#115
Linkenski

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This.

 

Bioware overestimated the intelligence of the audience.

 

Expect more dumbing down of storytelling from them from now on, Dragon age Inquisition is just the beginning.

DA2 was just as dumb, but hidden by the fact that its plot was way overcomplicated and half of it went nowhere. DA:I was simpler but just as dumb, but it didn't pretend to be more than it was. ME3 was just the result of Mac Walter's fumbling around and not being able to keep track of his own writing, while the rest of the team made the best out of a bad situation, while Chris Hepler ruined EDI and several things got cut and the game just ended having multiple entire plot-points that were half-baked. *gasp*. The ending was the biggest mistake sure, because it COULD'VE driven home all the other things that didn't make sense, like Cerberus but instead it went on its own tangent and totally derailed the central conflict into "Stuggle of organic vs synthetic". As "dumb" as DA:I is, I still found it to be much more coherent.


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#116
themikefest

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The more I read all of your ending posts, the more I understand why some people found it wrong and bad. I honestly feel lucky that I've never had to experience it on my first playthrough. I didn't miss the last boss fight because I found that the 'Priority: Earth" gauntlet was challenging enough for me, and honestly it was more exciting for me than the suicide mission.

Here's a thread, if interested, about Priority Earth and what folks liked and disliked about the mission


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#117
Vanilka

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Shepard does not really become a tool more than he/she already was. And I don't mean that in a negative way. But look at it like that. You are told a lot of things and have to do them, you have to accept orders from Hackett, go to Mars, get the plans, rally support for a device you have no clue about what it does. And in the end Shepard is just another component of the Crucible/Citadel complex.

I'd just say Shepard needs to work with what he/she's given. There's no alternative. The Crucible was always depicted as the last way out, and you got these 3 solutions out of the device (or 4 if EC is taken into account). There was nothing you could have done besides talking and asking questions.

 

I think the fact that "Nobody knows what the Crucible does," is another problem of mine in this game. The whole galaxy is working on this device and they have absolutely zero idea whether it'll shoot confetti or lasers? Like, none? And if we have absolutely zero idea what it does, it is really a good idea to place all our hopes in it? The galaxy lucked the hell out that it actually worked.

However, you've got a point. Throughout the game, we indeed are told what to do and where to go. On the other hand, I felt like I can do stuff on my own terms, you know. Maybe that's what bothers me.

Nevertheless, I understand the protagonist can't possibly solve each and every situation with the most ideal outcome. And that's fine by me. I guess I just felt sucker-punched because Shepard acted determined and headstrong the whole game and then she just... accepts whatever without questioning it over much. It felt wrong. Then again, that's me.

 

I can see your point, but what would it have accomplished? Voicing an opinion would not have changed anything. The Catalyst wasn't responsible for the Crucible, or any of its solutions, it merely presented them. So even if you had the best arguments and the Catalyst would agree with them, it cannot change what the Crucible is doing.

 

I can't see what it would have accomplished if I'm not even allowed to try now, can I? The thing is that the Catalyst has a very wrong idea of how the world works and perhaps presenting it with facts could "alter the variables", like it already says we did. It's not even an opinion. The Catalyst is simply wrong. "Synthetics will always turn against the organics," falls totally flat when you have the geth and quarians working together and EDI is dating Joker. This cycle solved its problems with synthetics and, look, the galaxy is still alive and kicking. Whether it led to the destruction of the quarians, or the geth, or peace between them. It doesn't matter which you choose, the Catalyst is simply incorrect. The only conflict here is the war with the Reapers. It's that simple. Why not at least try to see whether we can reason with it? Shepard is allowed to try only very little in that matter and it all gets brushed off, sometimes without the Catalyst even answering what it was asked. But that's not Shepard being dumb, that's the writers not allowing our character to talk.

The Catalyst says that it's much more than just a simple AI but it presents incorrect statements as the ultimate truth and it is absolutely and totally unable to adjust to the situation. And yet, it tells you that "The Reapers are my solution," so it can hardly be helpless. If the Catalyst was unable to come up with solutions and execute them, there would be no Reapers. Also, the Catalyst says that The Crucible is merely a power source, if I remember right. (Somebody correct me?) It doesn't really do anything on its own.
 

Well, this is something that falls under "matter of taste". I had no problem with the relays exploding (I played without Extended Cut first). While this ended in a lot of casualties, it felt like this was a new beginning too. A new era without Reapers where life can start anew.

 

I understand where you are coming from and it would make total sense. The problem is that the game does not address it. We see the relays exploding and then everything's fine, the Normandy lands on that pretty planet and everything's just peachy. Well, unless you have low EMS. (The EC fixed that, fortunately.)
 

Maybe that's why I don't have a problem with such things. I don't care about these Dont's. I really do not care, haha. It's the same with songs. Most of them use the typical "rule" of Verse-Chorus-Verse-Chorus-Bridge-Chorus etc. While that's fine, I also love songs that break this pattern, break the rules. I think storytelling or songwriting can be experimental sometimes, because why not? There's always gonna be someone who likes it.
Since Rhaenyss mentioned the "boss battle", let's take this as an example, too. I'm sure loads of people hated that we did not get a real end boss. But I loved it, it was refreshing, breaking the video game ending rules, and I know some people on the BSN here also liked it. Bioware liked it, or else they wouldn't have done it.

 

Fair enough, that's always going to be a matter of taste. As I said, I did prefer ME2's ending, but that's just me. I understand if other people prefer something different. Different is not necessarily bad.

BW is not allowed to dislike their own stuff, though, I think. It's probably not a good idea to be vocal about disliking stuff the company you work for made, so I don't think we can really know what all the people in BW do and don't like. From what I've heard, the end of the game didn't go through any peer review, which would explain a lot, if true.
 

Mh, I have never perceived the Catalyst as a God. Just as an entity controlling the Reapers, with a purpose and its own reasoning. Much clearer after Leviathan though :D
But like I said before, it's not the Catalyst's fault we get these choices in the end, it was the Crucible.

 

Heh, the god thing was an exaggeration, I admit. It technically is the most powerful being in the galaxy, though. That's why I blurted that out.

 

Okay, I've found a video. "The device you refer to as the Crucible is little more than a power source. However, in the combination with the Citadel and the relays, it is capable of releasing tremendous amounts of energy throughout the galaxy. It is crude but effective and adaptive in its design." Then the Catalyst rambles about its origin, etc. So the solutions are, indeed, the Catalyst's solutions. Plus, it did say it had attempted synthesis before, back when the Crucible was still nothing more than a concept.

Leviathan made me so pissed. It basically told me their antivirus went bonkers without them bothering to do anything about it for millions of years and now we're all paying for it. I live a sad life, getting upset by video games, I know. :lol: 
 

I thought that was the great thing in it. It's entirely up to the player if he/she trusts the Catalyst. Everyone has their own reasoning to trust or distrust it. I believed the Catalyst would present me the choices I had to its best knowledge, it didn't strike me as a liar. What it definitely wanted was the player picking Synthesis, yes. But it's up to the player to do that. Everything's valid.

 

Fair enough. Can't argue with that. That's what RP is about, after all.
 

Why is "it is not something that can be forced" not good enough? In order to unite the galaxy, to unite Organics and Synthetics, you have to be an open-minded individual. My take on it is that Shepard's very essence, so who he/she is, his/her desires or beliefs are what's necessary in order for this to work. That this essence can be spread with the help of the Citadel and the Crucible's energy. Yes, it sounds like space magic, it is space magic, and I don't want to defend Synthesis. I don't like how it's turning out, but I do like the concept, it's interesting to me.

 

Because we never really get a good explanation of the Synthesis except for "It'll end the war," and "It'll combine everybody's DNA." You are responsible for choosing the fate of the whole galaxy, so maybe it would be good to know whether there are any catches. Like, will it cause any problems? How will it alter life as we know it? What am I actually buying here? Maybe it's just me being too analytic and way too serious about a video game, but I wouldn't want to make an uninformed decision if I found myself in that situation.

 

I agree the concept in itself otherwise has potential, though. Perhaps for another race or story, even.

 

Again, that's me, but I like endings that aren't black and white, endings that are open for interpretation, endings where you can speculate with others what is going to happen. It is not for everyone, and I accept that many people do not like this kind of stuff, but to say it's bad because of this is the same as if me saying an ending is bad because I got it spelled out in front of me. Imo.

 

Yes, that makes perfect sense to me. I'm not saying we need to hear every detail or not leave anything to imagination. I think this is connected to what I said before - I just don't want to screw Milky Way up forever by making a lame decision. (That's why I go for Destroy on my canon because I worry about the unknowns of the other two. Of course, not saying that's the best solution. Just works best for me.)
 

I guess that's really a matter of opinion. Stuff like this works for some folks, while doing nothing for others. I think we should just keep in mind that when someone creates something, it can never appeal to everyone, and that's okay :)

 

You're right. It's what it is. I guess I was happy with the previous endings and other folks with ME3's. Life's all right. For the rest, there's headcanon, lol.
 

No worries :) I always try to respect everyone's opinion and you have your valid reasons for not liking it, I have mine to like it. So we can just agree to disagree :D

 

Thanks! I'm more than happy to politely agree to disagree. It would be boring anyway if everybody had the same viewpoint. I tend to learn new things during discussions like this, look at stuff from new angles. Sometimes I learn stuff I didn't notice or think about certain ways before. Sometimes I just worry to come across as too pushy or aggressive. I wouldn't want that.


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#118
AlanC9

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My theory is that the Catalyst uses the kid as appearance because it wants Shepard to trust it, trust the words it says.
And about the mind reading, the Reapers are the eyes of the Catalyst, aren't they? Maybe it has to do with the Leviathans as well. I don't think the mind-reading is too far-fetched, given what we've seen in the game I think it's entirely possible. A role of an "observer", if you will.


Since the protheans could beam information into a human brain with tech, it's hard to believe that the Reapers couldn't read information out with tech -- that's the simpler problem.

#119
AlanC9

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Nevertheless, I understand the protagonist can't possibly solve each and every situation with the most ideal outcome. And that's fine by me. I guess I just felt sucker-punched because Shepard acted determined and headstrong the whole game and then she just... accepts whatever without questioning it over much. It felt wrong. Then again, that's me.


Yeah, it depends on what you think Shepard ought to be trying to do in the moment. I was OK with Shepard letting the Catalyst ramble on for a bit since there might be useful information in the rambling. Conversely, I didn't think Shepard handled the interaction with Sovereign very well. I might have tried to argue with it had the option been there, but I would not have expected to get anywhere with it.

 

Okay, I've found a video. "The device you refer to as the Crucible is little more than a power source. However, in the combination with the Citadel and the relays, it is capable of releasing tremendous amounts of energy throughout the galaxy. It is crude but effective and adaptive in its design." Then the Catalyst rambles about its origin, etc. So the solutions are, indeed, the Catalyst's solutions. Plus, it did say it had attempted synthesis before, back when the Crucible was still nothing more than a concept.


That conclusion doesn't follow. Though the Catalyst certainly does agree with Synthesis (I'm with the faction which believes that the Crucible was originally a Leviathan concept.) Why would the Catalyst design Control, which has a random effect, or Destroy, which is all negative.

Yes, that makes perfect sense to me. I'm not saying we need to hear every detail or not leave anything to imagination. I think this is connected to what I said before - I just don't want to screw Milky Way up forever by making a lame decision. (That's why I go for Destroy on my canon because I worry about the unknowns of the other two. Of course, not saying that's the best solution. Just works best for me.)

 
Those unknowns are not avoidable. If you pick Destroy, yoy're gambling that the Catalyst really is wrong about everything. For all Shepard knows in the moment, the Stargazer scene following Destroy could have been a couple of AIs praising Shepard for letting evolution take its natural course, even though this meant the extinction of his own species. (No way Bio would have had the guts to do that, of course.)
 
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#120
Vanilka

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Yeah, it depends on what you think Shepard ought to be trying to do in the moment. I was OK with Shepard letting the Catalyst ramble on for a bit since there might be useful information in the rambling. Conversely, I didn't think Shepard handled the interaction with Sovereign very well. I might have tried to argue with it had the option been there, but I would not have expected to get anywhere with it.

 
I did think the conversation with Sovereign was handled better than with the Catalyst. That's just me, though. While it could've certainly been handled better, it was still Shepard - she asked questions (Sovereign had nothing intelligent to say anyway. It just gloats and then rage-quits.) and sent Sovereign to hell, so to speak. Same with Harbinger in Arrival, where she didn't ask questions because there's really not much to debate on "YOU HAVE FAILED. WE SHALL DESTROY YOU ANYWAY, PUNY HUMAN." and sent Harby to hell again. I had my Shepard snap at Leviathan for doing nothing, too. After asking all the important questions, of course. But suddenly the Catalyst's all special and Shepard's half-mute. Oh, yeah, either that or you can have them throw an irrational hissy fit and have the Catalyst destroy everything which is... not what the fans asked for when they wanted fixes.

Of course, it's okay to listen. It's always good to listen. To an extent, anyway.

Also, the Catalyst says, "We find a new solution," and then proceeds to have a monologue. Like, who are "we"? Like, "we, the Reapers"? Or "we, you and me"? And if it's "we" as in "you and me", then I haven't seen much of the "you" in there. Wouldn't it be cool if Shepard could actually have a discussion with the Catalyst about her cycle, a discussion that is productive? If they could invent a new solution together instead of three predefined ones?
 

That conclusion doesn't follow. Though the Catalyst certainly does agree with Synthesis (I'm with the faction which believes that the Crucible was originally a Leviathan concept.) Why would the Catalyst design Control, which has a random effect, or Destroy, which is all negative.

 
How does it not follow? The Catalyst clearly states it tried similar solutions to synthesis in the past. It clearly states the Crucible is merely a power source. That means the Catalyst has some means to develop different solutions and execute them, just as it did with the Reapers. The Reapers did not come out of nowhere. Otherwise the Catalyst would be completely dependent on organics building crucibles again and again for the different solutions. I give it the benefit of the doubt because it said something along the lines of "The Crucible changed me," if I remember right. But it never elaborates on how or what. But that doesn't erase the fact the Catalyst claims it tried different solutions in the past, so the Crucible shouldn't be needed for that specific purpose.

If the Crucible was originally a Leviathan concept, why did they never try to finish it and why is it never mentioned? They had millions of years to do so. They have breaks that last thousands of years. It's good in theory, but the game doesn't really allow this without making the Leviathan look really, really stupid. Which is not much of a feat since they already made a synthetic to solve a problem with synthetics and then just set it free to do whatever it pleases, then went, "OMG, we didn't expect that to come biting us in the ass." Another thing is that Leviathan actually dares to tell you that the Reapers are still just fulfilling their purpose and there's no war and all that crap.

And as to why any of that happens... is one of the things that gives me headaches. Like why it claims it tries to preserve species in the form of Reapers, but not quarians and drell, because screw those guys. And then it sends the ships that are "each a nation" of the preserved species they harvested and risks destroying them in a war... Why any of this happens, indeed.
 

Those unknowns are not avoidable. If you pick Destroy, yoy're gambling that the Catalyst really is wrong about everything. For all Shepard knows in the moment, the Stargazer scene following Destroy could have been a couple of AIs praising Shepard for letting evolution take its natural course, even though this meant the extinction of his own species. (No way Bio would have had the guts to do that, of course.)

 
Yes, but if the Catalyst is wrong about Destroy, it might as well be wrong about Synthesis or Control and every single one of those choices is a gamble anyway. And we're even deeper in the land of speculations yet again. We can't forget this character could even lie to us. Wouldn't it be funny if each of those devices was a death trap to get rid of nosy organics that might manage to make it there? (BioWare, don't read this. I swear to goddess, if that ever happens in one of your games...) The best thing to do in that situation would be to just inform Hackett and the other leaders to see what our options were. Which would not be a problem if Hackett was worth anything as an admiral and sent people into the Citadel right after the arms opened. Since they kept saying how we don't know what might be in the Citadel, why risk that the single person who got in (They don't know about Anderson.) screws up or gets killed or whatever? It might not solve the situation, but having e.g. EDI with us in such a situation would perhaps bring interesting results and completely new insights.

However, I get it. We technically have no idea what'll exactly happen, even with Destroy. But if I am to make a choice, and I simply have to, I have no other options, I still understand the impact and consequences of destroying synthetics and perhaps Shepard together with them, with some damage to technology here and there better than merging all life into one form or than becoming an immortal being with unlimited power, I think. Unfortunately, I have to take my chances with one of them whether I want to or not, so it might as well be something that I at least think I understand from star brat's explanation.


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#121
Goodmongo

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Reading through all the replies it seems people are demanding a HEA (happy ever after) type ending.  For those that say you can just leave etc. they have that ending.  Organics lose this cycle but a future cycle wins.

 

Now for those saying we should contact Hackett you miss the point entirely.  The point is for you (Shepard) to make the choice.  What if they put in a short sequence where you contact Hackett and he says "Do what you think is best.  You got us this far."  It still comes down to your choice.  So adding that one sentence means nothing.

 

The whole point is that you don't know.  Do you trust the starchild AI or not?  That is up to you.  The starchild AI says synergy is the best but you still have to decide.

 

As for reading minds nowhere in the game have the reapers ever did that.  Only after being exposed to reaper tech were people indoctrinated.  So they can't just read your mind and have you control them.  Besides control is way more than just thoughts.  Have you tried control with a full paragon and renegade view?  They are slightly different which means control also incorporates your personality.  And that is more than just some thoughts.  You in essence are doing to the reapers what TIM did to you when you shot Anderson.

 

Sorry but it really does seem all the complaints boil down to people wanting a HEA ending.

 

EDIT:  Vanilka you make a big point about how it takes 10 minutes to walk to the selection etc.  Sorry but that is whining only.  First off it's not 10 minutes and secondly you were SHOT.  Should you run and skip there instead? 

 

My point is you say something like this yet offer no specific alternative to that point.  So you hate the slow walking then what should be done?  And does it even freakin matter?  Now apply this to every other complaint.

 

Now let me add one more thing.  In areas where you do provide a suggestion such as:

"Wouldn't it be cool if Shepard could have a discussion about her cycle....If they could invent a new solution instead of the three predefined ones"

 

First off there were only two and a third added due to you being the first organic to ever make it that far.  So they already did a reevaluation and added a third choice. 

 

Secondly, the starchild AI believes in one thing that EVENTUALLY synthetics will destroy organics.  Even a discussion about Geth would not change this fundamental theory.  So you can discuss till you're blue in the face.  You don't have the OPTION or POWER to create a new choice.  It's a tke it or leave it situation.

 

I can discuss with my boss why I deserve more money in my job but I can take their raise or leave it.  I can't force my boss to give me a bigger raise.  Shepard is not God here.

 

So you have the 4 choices.  And even if you had this discussion you already complained that the "10 minutes" learning about the cycles was too long yet you want to spend even more time in discussions.  And what if you do have the discussion and the Starkid AI still says:  "Sorry Shepard but we know for a fact that eventually the Geth will turn on organics because it happened before.

 

Finally, in the long conversation with Jarvik about AI's he says the same thing about AI's that the starkid says.  You can't trust them, they will eventually turn against you and organics need to destroy all AI's.  So Jarvik was confirming what the starkid says.



#122
Vanilka

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@Goodmongo
 
What are you even talking about? Never ever have I mentioned walking in this entire thread.

 

Nobody has ever asked here for everything to end like a fairly tale. I, specifically, mostly talk about how I don't like the plotholes and inconsistencies and similar stuff, and that is all. If there is something subjective I have to say, I state so.

 

The third choice being what? Synthesis? The Catalyst said it has done similar things before. So no, that wasn't new. Destroy? Yeah, Destroy is dumb because why would they offer to destroy themselves without solving "the conflict"? It's just as dumb as is sending a ship with cargo you're trying to protect on front lines. The Catalyst does both of those things. You know what that is? Spoiler: Bad writing.

 

Hackett might not help us during the final moment but leaving everything on Shepard is simply not appropriate. The only thing Hackett does during the whole thing is crying, "OMG, Shepard it doesn't work." Yeah, thanks, that's helpful, Shepard's just losing blood, but hey, she'll handle that.

 

That a discussion would change nothing is your speculation, just as is my speculation that it might. Except that I'm aware of the fact I'm speculating.

 

I never said Shepard should be able to solve each and every situation. I even go out of my way to say they shouldn't.

 

Asking for clarification is not the same as asking for further ten minutes of crap content.

 

Javik wants to throw everything out of the airlock, you do realise that, right? He tells you that you should've shot your friend during the Citadel coup and other useful things. Javik is no more authority on synthetics than you or I.

 

The geth never turned on organics. (EDIT: Besides the heretics and that was after the Morning War and thanks to the Reapers.) The quarians attacked them, then attacked them again. The geth merely fought back both times. Whether you want to side with them or against them, that's your business, but those are the facts. "The geth will turn on organics" thing is again another speculation.

 

Have you even read what I said properly or are you just ready to defend the ending "at all costs"? You know, I felt like we were having a pretty chill discussion with mutual understanding of the fact that we're discussing our personal views and opinions until you decided to come along and be that guy. You know, the guy who thinks he knows everything best and has any right to accuse me of whining. Especially accuse me of something that never happened.



#123
fraggle

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You can probably find some counter examples in the first two games (like have to work for Cerberus), but I think we can agree that ME 3 was doing it a lot more.

 

To be fair I think a lot of this has to do with the storyline, with how invincible they made the Reapers from ME1 on. There is no way to beat them conventionally, so in the end the only thing you can do is follow that path, unite the galaxy, put your hopes into the Crucible, and that's it.

To me ME3 wasn't as much about choices as it was about tying the choices you made in ME1/2 into the third game. Genophage arc, quarian/geth arc etc. It's more like a conclusion of what you did in the other 2 games. A fitting theme for a last game in the Trilogy, for me at least.

We never have full control about Shepard anyway, it's just an illusion, like you said :) Too bad you felt different in ME3, but I can see your point why you would.

 

I think the fact that "Nobody knows what the Crucible does," is another problem of mine in this game. The whole galaxy is working on this device and they have absolutely zero idea whether it'll shoot confetti or lasers? Like, none? And if we have absolutely zero idea what it does, it is really a good idea to place all our hopes in it? The galaxy lucked the hell out that it actually worked.

 

The galaxy did luck out on that, I agree. But there are also multiple occurrences in the game where that doubt is also expressed. We get a glimpse into the Crucible from Javik and Vendetta, and Hackett tells you at one point they've found out more about what the Crucible does and that they try to find out how to target the Reapers specifically.

The question if it's a good idea to put their hopes in it has a simple answer. They have no other choice. There's nothing else. Bioware had to pull out something like that because they made the Reapers near unbeatable from early on.

 

I can't see what it would have accomplished if I'm not even allowed to try now, can I? The thing is that the Catalyst has a very wrong idea of how the world works and perhaps presenting it with facts could "alter the variables", like it already says we did. It's not even an opinion. The Catalyst is simply wrong. "Synthetics will always turn against the organics," falls totally flat when you have the geth and quarians working together and EDI is dating Joker. This cycle solved its problems with synthetics and, look, the galaxy is still alive and kicking. Whether it led to the destruction of the quarians, or the geth, or peace between them. It doesn't matter which you choose, the Catalyst is simply incorrect.

 

The Catalyst justifies its reasoning with the heaps of data from all these years that bring the proof.

And since you mentioned geth and quarians, what started that war in the first place? Synthetics disobeying orders, so "Synthetics will always turn against the organics" is right here. Also, the Catalyst states why this would always apply, because Synthetics must per definition always surpass their creators in order to fulfill their purpose, to improve the organics' existence. It tells Shepard that these improvements have limits, and thus Synthetics must be allowed to evolve and that the result is conflict.

And when you say that we can take care of ourselves, yes, we can (that's exactly my reasoning and why I pick Destroy), but this is not what the Catalyst was tasked to do. If either quarians or geth die it would have failed. That knowledge of whoever dies would be lost. You say the Catalyst is incorrect, but that is from your own point of view. If you would put yourself in the Catalyst's position, it has no other way but to try and preserve that knowledge, because that is its task, that's how it was programmed.

 

I understand where you are coming from and it would make total sense. The problem is that the game does not address it. We see the relays exploding and then everything's fine, the Normandy lands on that pretty planet and everything's just peachy. Well, unless you have low EMS. (The EC fixed that, fortunately.)


BW is not allowed to dislike their own stuff, though, I think. It's probably not a good idea to be vocal about disliking stuff the company you work for made, so I don't think we can really know what all the people in BW do and don't like. From what I've heard, the end of the game didn't go through any peer review, which would explain a lot, if true.

 

Well, I could argue again that the Catalyst tells you what happens, the Mass Relays will be destroyed, and we all know what that would mean. It's implied.

 

I have read that too, but I've also seen/read some interviews where you can clearly see that they were totally disappointed that the ending was received that badly.

But I agree of course, we don't know who liked what, and it's probably safe to say that some stuff was overruled by others, whether you are happy with the outcome or not. I guess that happens everywhere.

 

Okay, I've found a video. "The device you refer to as the Crucible is little more than a power source. However, in the combination with the Citadel and the relays, it is capable of releasing tremendous amounts of energy throughout the galaxy. It is crude but effective and adaptive in its design." Then the Catalyst rambles about its origin, etc. So the solutions are, indeed, the Catalyst's solutions. Plus, it did say it had attempted synthesis before, back when the Crucible was still nothing more than a concept.

Leviathan made me so pissed. It basically told me their antivirus went bonkers without them bothering to do anything about it for millions of years and now we're all paying for it. I live a sad life, getting upset by video games, I know. :lol:

 

Yes, you are right of course and this is the only sentence that makes me wonder. On the one hand, yeah, the Crucible is responsible for the energy.

But where do the options come from? And more importantly, why does the Catalyst repeatedly say that the Crucible changed it and created new possibilities?

Now, for the first, there is a thread (if you're interested in reading it I can look it up and link it here) around here that played with the idea that the tubes for Destroy and Control are attached to the Crucible, which would then make sense that the Catalyst is forced to accept these solutions once the Crucible docks. It would be part of the Citadel only then.

Because it doesn't make much sense to me if these two tubes were attached to the Citadel before. The Catalyst could've just removed them with the Reapers' help if one Cycle would have managed to attach them to the Citadel.

Then the Protheans believed the Crucible could be used to both destroy or control the Reapers, which suggests that these solutions were somehow tied to it.

Maybe I'm completely wrong, but it's great discussing it, because maybe someone has more ideas or a different approach which would make total sense.

 

It's all good, you can get upset that much about a video game, just as much as some people fall in love with it :) It's great when games evoke such strong emotion, shows that people really care about it.

 

Because we never really get a good explanation of the Synthesis except for "It'll end the war," and "It'll combine everybody's DNA." You are responsible for choosing the fate of the whole galaxy, so maybe it would be good to know whether there are any catches. Like, will it cause any problems? How will it alter life as we know it? What am I actually buying here? Maybe it's just me being too analytic and way too serious about a video game, but I wouldn't want to make an uninformed decision if I found myself in that situation.

 

Fair enough. And that also goes back to "how much do you trust the Catalyst" :D Those are good questions you're asking, and they should be asked, even though the Catalyst already presents their answer a bit already if you're willing to believe it.

 

Yes, that makes perfect sense to me. I'm not saying we need to hear every detail or not leave anything to imagination. I think this is connected to what I said before - I just don't want to screw Milky Way up forever by making a lame decision. (That's why I go for Destroy on my canon because I worry about the unknowns of the other two. Of course, not saying that's the best solution. Just works best for me.)

Thanks! I'm more than happy to politely agree to disagree. It would be boring anyway if everybody had the same viewpoint. I tend to learn new things during discussions like this, look at stuff from new angles. Sometimes I learn stuff I didn't notice or think about certain ways before. Sometimes I just worry to come across as too pushy or aggressive. I wouldn't want that.

 

One thing I also liked in the ending is that in this moment, all that counted was Shepard. It focused on Shepard, nothing else mattered. And while the player might want to know more about the whole thing, Shepard doesn't really have time to get answers for all the questions, and ultimately, I don't think they're needed. But maybe I see it that way because I did believe the Catalyst was presenting the choices to its best knowledge :D

Hehe, yeah, Destroy all the way :) But I like that there are plenty of arguments for Control or Synthesis as well. It's up to each player, there's no right or wrong, everyone just has to justify their choice for themselves and what happens next is totally up to imagination.

 

Yeah, discussions like these are great when they're civil. I've seen other folks here and it was not as polite, haha. I think it's nice to discuss because maybe both sides can understand each other (heh, we achieve Synthesis :P) and maybe also find some more arguments for or against each case. I'm always happy if I can find out more, or read more ideas/different approaches, that can be a lot of fun.


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#124
Goodmongo

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@Goodmongo
 
What are you even talking about? Never ever have I mentioned walking in this entire thread.

 

Nobody has ever asked here for everything to end like a fairly tale. I, specifically, mostly talk about how I don't like the plotholes and inconsistencies and similar stuff, and that is all.

 

The third choice being what? Synthesis? The Catalyst said it has done similar things before. So no, that wasn't new. Destroy? Yeah, Destroy is dumb because why would they offer to destroy themselves without solving "the conflict"? It's just as dumb as is sending a ship with cargo you're trying to protect on front lines. The Catalyst does both of those things. You know what that is? Spoiler: Bad writing.

 

Hackett might not help us during the final moment but leaving everything on Shepard is simply not appropriate. The only thing Hackett does during the whole thing is crying, "OMG, Shepard it doesn't work." Yeah, thanks, that's helpful, Shepard's just losing blood, but hey, she'll handle that.

 

That a discussion would change nothing is your speculation, just as is my speculation that it might.

 

I never said Shepard should be able to solve each and every situation. I even go out of my way to say they shouldn't.

 

Asking for clarification is not the same as asking for further ten minutes of crap content.

 

Javik wants to throw everything out of the airlock, you do realise that, right? He tells you that you should've shot your friend during the Citadel coup and other useful things. Javik is no more authority on synthetics than you or I.

 

The geth never turned on organics. (EDIT: Besides the heretics and that was after the Morning War and thanks to the Reapers.) The quarians attacked them, then attacked them again. The geth merely fought back both times. Whether you want to side with them or against them, that's your business, but those are the facts. "The geth will turn on organics" thing is again another speculation.

 

Have you even read what I said properly or are you just ready to defend the ending "at all costs"? You know, I felt like we were having a pretty chill discussion with mutual understanding of the fact that we're discussing our personal views and opinions until you decided to come along and be that guy. You know, the guy who thinks he knows everything best and has any right to accuse me of whining. Especially accuse me of something that never happened.

Sorry in post #80 you used the term "crawling" and not the term walking.  But my point was valid as you complained about the method to get to a choice (crawling).

 

As for HEA that wasn't specifically directed at you and your name was mentioned after that point of reference.  

 

Actually all three choices are a new solution.  The catalyst says something about how Shepard being there changed the variables and new "solutions" are necessary.  But the catalyst can't do it instead Shepard has to make the choice.

 

During the whole freakin game Hackett always relied on Shepard to do everything.  Name one thing that Hackett did where he didn't rely on Shepard?  So why expect something new now?  Besides this isn't "Hackett decides game" it's Shepard and what you the player will pick and choose.  So no a conversation with Hackett and him making a decision is contrary to everything in the game so far.  Nothing supports this.  Sheppard gets to decide when to attack and even gets on the com to all fleets as to when to open fire.  BTW you know Shepard is wounded but Hackett doesn't so your complaint is invalid because it's based on information only you have.  So why wouldn't he wonder why nothing is going on?  The flaw in logic is in your analysis and not Hackett's response.  It wasn't speculation on my part that it does nothing.  It's based on the facts as presented int he game to date.

 

So you claim in your speculation that it would change something.  What would it change and more importantly how can it change it?  It's your turn to write a paragraph for the game to show how talking to Hackett impacts the choice Shepard has to make.

 

Your clarification might be crap to someone else.  What clarification are you asking for?  It seemed the extended cut make things pretty darn clear to me.  Not everything can or should be known.  If by clarification you want to know the future then sorry there is no crystal ball available.

 

The Geth didn't turn on them YET.  And that is the point Jarvik and Catalyst are making.  They EVENTUALLY will turn.  Catalyst says this many times.  jarvik talked about how their AI's were helpful at first but eventually turned.  That is the whole premise of the game.  AI's will eventually turn.  Now you can either accept this premise or not.  But the whole story is based on it.

 

BTW once again I'm not picking on you.  I cited one comment but I used the word "people" meaning plural not an individual.  Am I defending the endings?  In one sense I am.  I'm defending the endings in that Bioware explained them and had a right to end the story as they see fit.  Am I defending it as an ending I would like?  I haven't commented on that.  My "feelings" about the endings are personal opinion and each of use can have their likes and dislikes.  That sin't up for debate.

 

What is up for debate are facts.  Facts surrounding if they are logical in the concept of the reset of the story.  Do they fit into the game universe.  What are other possibilities where the story and game supports them.

 

I've read hundreds of pages and got into the indoctrination wars way before the extended cut came out.  Seems I was right back then as Bioware specifically says there was no indoctrination going on.  But that was the old debate.

 

But I will always challenge those that claim to know better, or have a better solution to defend their statements.  If Bioware's ending can come under fierce criticism then so can your's or anyone else's.  Why should your's or anyone's ending not be as deeply analyzed or criticized as the official endings?  But in the end it almost always comes down to people wanting some sort of HEA ending, with HEA being slightly different based on taste.



#125
themikefest

themikefest
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During the whole freakin game Hackett always relied on Shepard to do everything.  Name one thing that Hackett did where he didn't rely on Shepard?

Not in ME3, but in ME2, yes.The Arrival dlc. Hackett sends in the Marines to take care of the problem if the dlc isn't completed
 

So why expect something new now?

Shepard passes out as Hackett says "Commander". If Shepard doesn't wake up, would Hackett just stand on his ship waiting for something to happen. Time is not on his side. When Shepard doesn't reply to him, Hackett should send in a shuttle to investigate.
 

Besides this isn't "Hackett decides game"

That's true, but he did say dead reapers is how we win this war
 

Sheppard gets to decide when to attack and even gets on the com to all fleets as to when to open fire.

That was pathetic having Shepard lead the fleets especailly with the Normandy firing a whole lot of nothing. So much for being the tip of the spear
 

BTW you know Shepard is wounded but Hackett doesn't

This is true, but when Shepard doesn't answer Hackett after passing out, Hackett should've sent a shuttle to investigate. As I said above, time is not on his side even for the fleets. Of course its possible that Hackett never heard Shepard on his end. That would be even more of reason to send a shuttle to investigate

 

I would also add that even with Shepard talking to the thing, I was surprised he/she made no effort to get a hold of Hackett to let him know what's going on or at least attempt to get a hold of Hackett.


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