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[Goodmongo]

 

Mongo, I've noticed you've been saying "We know that organics and synthetics will always come into conflict" a lot.

 

How do you know this?

 

My Shepard at least has always pushed those around him toward a path of acceptance and understanding. He removed Garrus's anti-Quarian prejudice, helped Pressley accept aliens as people, made peace between the Geth and the Quarians... who's to say Shepard isn't the lynchpin that will finally stop the conflicts between all AI and all organics?

 

True, there will always be conflicts, but that's just as true as between organics and organics. Hell, someone could have said that Krogan and the Council will always be in conflict, until Wrex came along and pulled their heads out of their muscled asses. Or that Quarians and the Geth will always be in conflict, until Shepard made Gerrel stop being a little bosh'tet. Or that Rachni and the Galaxy will always be in conflict until Shepard arrived.

 

Just because something has happened a lot in the past, doesn't mean it will happen in the future. Synthesis always failed in the past, so by your logic it should fail even when Shepard was there.

 

 

We know this for a variety of reasons.

 

1) Geth and Quarians did have a war.

2) Jarvik says that they fought the AI in their time and you can't trust AI's.

3) Enhanced Defense Initiative AI attacks humans.

4) The catalyst says it has happened many (countless) times.  You can believe or not but he does say it.

 

While Shepard does do all you said he is just one person that will die someday.  So someone else, a new TIM maybe, creates a AI that goes all terminator on organics.  But mainly I think the catalyst is telling the truth (the games story is based on this premise after all) that synthetics will eventually rebel and fight organics.

 

A for synthesis now working the dialogue explains that.  It's a contrive plot point maybe but it says that organics are now ready for the first time.  What it doesn't say is that synthetics have also changed.

 

Finally, the entire premise of the game/story/universe is that organics and synthetics will eventually fight.  It's sort of like a fundamental principle of physics in this game.  Without this premise there would be no need for the solution, AKA reapers.  But remember the point is synthetics will eventually exterminate organics if left unchecked.

[Batarian Master Race]

We know this for a variety of reasons.

 

1) Geth and Quarians did have a war.

2) Jarvik says that they fought the AI in their time and you can't trust AI's.

3) Enhanced Defense Initiative AI attacks humans.

4) The catalyst says it has happened many (countless) times.  You can believe or not but he does say it.

 

While Shepard does do all you said he is just one person that will die someday.  So someone else, a new TIM maybe, creates a AI that goes all terminator on organics.  But mainly I think the catalyst is telling the truth (the games story is based on this premise after all) that synthetics will eventually rebel and fight organics.

 

A for synthesis now working the dialogue explains that.  It's a contrive plot point maybe but it says that organics are now ready for the first time.  What it doesn't say is that synthetics have also changed.

 

Finally, the entire premise of the game/story/universe is that organics and synthetics will eventually fight.  It's sort of like a fundamental principle of physics in this game.  Without this premise there would be no need for the solution, AKA reapers.  But remember the point is synthetics will eventually exterminate organics if left unchecked.

 

You've given me four examples of it happening, but no reasons why it must happen again. Starbrat's not psychic, is he?

 

And that's odd, 'cause I always thought the main premise of the game is that anything is possible if we accept each other's differences and work together.

[Goodmongo]

You've given me four examples of it happening, but no reasons why it must happen again. Starbrat's not psychic, is he?

 

And that's odd, 'cause I always thought the main premise of the game is that anything is possible if we accept each other's differences and work together.

 

Well let me use a few other examples.  Volcanoes have erupted in the past.  It is safe to conclude that they will erupt in the future.  Asteroids have hit Earth many times in the past.  It is safe to assume they will in the future.

 

Epidemics have hit people in the past.  Even with better medicine it's safe to conclude they will again in the future.

 

War has happened many many times in the past.  We like to think we're more civilized now.  But I would bet on war in the future over ever lasting peace.

 

Synthetics in the past have ALWAYS gone to war with organics.  What's the odds that history repeats itself or that because there was a Shepard it won't happen in the future?  I'll bet on war between them.

[God]

Well let me use a few other examples.  Volcanoes have erupted in the past.  It is safe to conclude that they will erupt in the future.  Asteroids have hit Earth many times in the past.  It is safe to assume they will in the future.

 

Epidemics have hit people in the past.  Even with better medicine it's safe to conclude they will again in the future.

 

War has happened many many times in the past.  We like to think we're more civilized now.  But I would bet on war in the future over ever lasting peace.

 

Synthetics in the past have ALWAYS gone to war with organics.  What's the odds that history repeats itself or that because there was a Shepard it won't happen in the future?  I'll bet on war between them.

 

But this is one specific example under a set of controllable variables. Your logic doesn't follow, based off of other examples. I happen to agree with you, but this logic is dependent on other situations which are under much less control, and less able to be scrutinized. 

[Goodmongo]

But this is one specific example under a set of controllable variables. Your logic doesn't follow, based off of other examples. I happen to agree with you, but this logic is dependent on other situations which are under much less control, and less able to be scrutinized. 

 

My war example is actually spot on.  War has happened many times in history.  We claim to be enlightened.  But war will happen in the future.

 

Same for synthetics.  We do know that organics and synthetics fought many times.  I cited three examples and catalyst said it happened many more times.  Catalyst also said they tried many solutions but none ever worked.  Not sure how much more evidence anyone needs.

 

It comes do a simple statement.  History will repeat itself.

[Batarian Master Race]

You can't know that war will happen in the future. True, it's likely, but not absolute.

 

The reapers have harvested the galaxy every single cycle before Shepard's. By your logic, it is silly to fight them, seeing as they've won so many times before. And yet Shepard DOES stop them from harvesting (well, unless you refuse).

[The Heretic of Time]

After the EC I only have 3 major gripes with the ME3 endings:

 

1) The fact that our options are presented by the enemy dressed up as a little brat.

2) The BS explanation for why the reapers are doing what they are doing.

3) Synthesis is still retarded even after the EC.


Those are the only 3 things that really bother me about the ME3 endings. Everything else I can live with.

[Vanilka]

Also, let's say that were true. By that logic, it shouldn't be just synthetics that are the problem. I mean, I didn't see the Reapers bat a tentacle when the Rachni got completely wiped out by the Krogan and when the Krogan started being so overwhelming that the Turians and Salarians had to sterilise them not to get wiped out, too. Earth has had two world wars, at least one of them with pretty hardcore weaponry, and there's still 11 billion of us on Earth alone by 2186. Javik's Cycle didn't get wiped out by synthetics, either, UNLESS YOU COUNT THE REAPERS. So war will happen. Synthetics or not. Big surprise. That doesn't mean all life is going to get wiped out.

 

But, okay, let's pretend synthetics vs organics truly are some sort of rule and that synthetics do pose such a threat: Now, what would happen if some civilisation evolved really fast and started inventing dangerous AIs like 5,000 years before the end of the Cycle? By that logic, they would get wiped out and there would be nothing left for the Reapers to harvest. The Reapers would come out of the dark space like, "OMG, EPIC FAIL." Though the idea of all organic life getting wiped out is hilarious on its own. Like, what are the big mean synthetics going to do? Declare war on fish and bugs and bacteria and stuff? Will they go around shooting ladybirds and butterflies and earthworms because they have nothing better to do? Will they make the entire galaxy go boom? We can't forget that despite Leviathan claiming this and that about extinction, the galaxy still managed to survive until their "solution" and was full of life until 2186 somehow. As Kasumi said, "Life finds a way!"

 

And if the AIs are such a problem, the Reapers can't just like come and warn us or something? Anything? Anything else but continuously wipe everybody out? But, nope. No can do, sire. We're super intelligent machines that are each a nation with thought processes far beyond any organic brain but talking or problem solving is not our forte. You know, for artificial intelligence, the Catalyst really doesn't have much intelligence to speak of. Remind me to point a finger at it and laugh next time I'm there aga.... oh, wait, that's not an option.

 

EDIT: Let's not forget the cute tiny detail that the organic life in the end prevailed against the most powerful synthetics of all times - the Reapers.

[The Heretic of Time]

Also, let's say that were true. By that logic, it shouldn't be just synthetics that are the problem. I mean, I didn't see the Reapers bat a tentacle when the Rachni got completely wiped out by the Krogan and when the Krogan started being so overwhelming that the Turians and Salarians had to sterilise them not to get wiped out, too. Earth has had two world wars, at least one of them with pretty hardcore weaponry, and there's still 11 billion of us on Earth alone by 2186. Javik's Cycle didn't get wiped out by synthetics, either, UNLESS YOU COUNT THE REAPERS. So war will happen. Synthetics or not. Big surprise. That doesn't mean all life is going to get wiped out.

 

But, okay, let's pretend synthetics vs organics truly are some sort of rule and that synthetics do pose such a threat: Now, what would happen if some civilisation evolved really fast and started inventing dangerous AIs like 5,000 years before the end of the Cycle? By that logic, they would get wiped out and there would be nothing left for the Reapers to harvest. The Reapers would come out of the dark space like, "OMG, EPIC FAIL." Though the idea of all organic life getting wiped out is hilarious on its own. Like, what are the big mean synthetics going to do? Declare war on fish and bugs and bacteria and stuff? Will they go around shooting ladybirds and butterflies and earthworms because they have nothing better to do? Will they make the entire galaxy go boom? We can't forget that despite Leviathan claiming this and that about extinction, the galaxy still managed to survive until their "solution" and was full of life until 2186 somehow. As Kasumi said, "Life finds a way!"

 

And if the AIs are such a problem, the Reapers can't just like come and warn us or something? Anything? Anything else but continuously wipe everybody out? But, nope. No can do, sire. We're super intelligent machines that are each a nation with thought processes far beyond any organic brain but talking or problem solving is not our forte. You know, for artificial intelligence, the Catalyst really doesn't have much intelligence to speak of. Remind me to point a finger at it at laugh next time I'm there aga.... oh, wait, that's not an option.

 

It's just BioWare being try-hard at making the reapers "deep" and "misunderstood" villains and horribly failing at it.

Honestly, most of the problems I have with the ME3 endings could very easily be solved by simply sticking to what Sovereign said in ME1:

"You exist because we allow it. And you will end because we demand it. My kind transcends your very understanding."

Really, that in itself is enough of an explanation for who and what the reapers are. They don't need to be "deep" or "misunderstood", and we don't need an explanation for why they are doing what they are doing, it doesn't add anything of value to the narrative.

[Dantriges]

We know this for a variety of reasons.

 

1) Geth and Quarians did have a war.

2) Jarvik says that they fought the AI in their time and you can't trust AI's.

3) Enhanced Defense Initiative AI attacks humans.

4) The catalyst says it has happened many (countless) times.  You can believe or not but he does say it.

 

1) Well interorganic relationships aren´t always peaceful either. Or even within the same species. As you said war has happened many times in history. 300 years ago... does someone propose that the swedes should be genocided because of their participation in the Great Northern War? We don´t know what these people could be up to after all.

And the quarians started the war (they had understandable reasons but that´s not the point) and steamrolled them until the Reapers showed up.

2) Javik also said that they had them contained until the Reapers showed up and the protheans even eradicated the Zha´til after they joined forces with the Reapers

3) You mean Proto EDI on Luna or EDI in your squad? Well you order her into battle in the latter case. Former case, well I am not even sure it´s the same person or if it could be classified as self defense, but yeah leaves a sour taste. If we found out in ME 2 and there was the option, I would have purged it. Or write "angry"   forum posts that Bioware made it a hamfisted non choice if her participation during the Collector abduction was critical.

4) He has a vested interest that you believe that. Actually he has a vested interest in believing that himself. Otherwise his purpose would be null and void. This whole synthetic-organic thing started with it. It was him who looked at the syntho-organic conflicts and decreed ex cathedra "it will always be like this." We don´t know much about its creation after all. Could be that it was built by the lowest bidder who cut corners to make a profit and this wars were just the usual wars just with one synthetic opponent.

 

The only current AIs we have, are the Geth who isolated themselves and EDI. The geth weren´t nice little peaceniks in their isolation but they didn´t rampage through the galaxy to kill all organics. EDI is one of a kind. If you think she is a person, drag her before a court, if not, fry her processors or not at your own judgement call.

 

We have two cases where organics won against the synthetics, even at a disadvantage. The quarians are really at a disadvantage and the prothean empire already had Reapers disease.

 

And all cycles were manipulated by the Catalyst. IMO the Zha´til sound suspiciouly like one of this failed synthesis experiments but that´s a wild speculation. And doesn´t matter, the shattered prothean empire still kicked their a** into extinction.

 

We don´t know much about the Catalyst. We don´t know how smart it is, we don´t know if his calculations are actually sound or based on faulty core programming, it´s unable to change beause of ancient software blocks it´s programmed to accept without question. Ok, it´s just speculation but well, IMO it actually fits observed behaviour rather than "I am supersmart and transcend your very understanding." We know that there was a problem with the thrall races building synthetics but it seems to me that it was a minor problem actually. There wasn´t much oversight over this project Catalyst and we´ve seen the capabilities of a few Leviathan, if they get serious after all. 

 

Edit. Forgot the crazy Ai in ME1 and the AI mecs in the Citdel DLC.

Yeah the AI in the storeroom had me concerned. This thing was a totally bonkers and malicous piece of hardware. OTOH I stopped counting how many crazy and/or malicous organics Shep killed in his travels. And this thing was built by a thief?

And the Citadel MECs? We have made an appeal at the council, could you please wait until..." *BLAM*

[Vanilka]

It's just BioWare being try-hard at making the reapers "deep" and "misunderstood" villains and horribly failing at it.

Honestly, most of the problems I have with the ME3 endings could very easily be solved by simply sticking to what Sovereign said in ME1:

"You exist because we allow it. And you will end because we demand it. My kind transcends your very understanding."

Really, that in itself is enough of an explanation for who and what the reapers are. They don't need to be "deep" or "misunderstood", and we don't need an explanation for why they are doing what they are doing, it doesn't add anything of value to the narrative.

 

Yeah, from the terrifying boogiemen we didn't understand the Reapers became sock puppets. Never thought I'd feel sorry for them. I knew something was wrong when Harby stopped trash talking me. Poor thing was probably bummed about it, too.

[angol fear]

It's just BioWare being try-hard at making the reapers "deep" and "misunderstood" villains and horribly failing at it.

Honestly, most of the problems I have with the ME3 endings could very easily be solved by simply sticking to what Sovereign said in ME1:

"You exist because we allow it. And you will end because we demand it. My kind transcends your very understanding."

Really, that in itself is enough of an explanation for who and what the reapers are. They don't need to be "deep" or "misunderstood", and we don't need an explanation for why they are doing what they are doing, it doesn't add anything of value to the narrative.

First, in the end the reapers are not misunderstood villains. You failed at understand this part of the ending. And you actually failed at understanding what Sovereign said because this aspect is based on what Sovereign said, they simply are.
Second, the no-explanation option of writing would leave the story in a very basic level ( good vs evil) which is impossible if you played Mass Effect 2, or maybe you didn't get that ME 2 was made to create a more subtle vision of the representations. What you want is to actually ignore the writing of the first two games.
That's what we call in writing being "incoherent".

[God]

My war example is actually spot on.  War has happened many times in history.  We claim to be enlightened.  But war will happen in the future.

 

Same for synthetics.  We do know that organics and synthetics fought many times.  I cited three examples and catalyst said it happened many more times.  Catalyst also said they tried many solutions but none ever worked.  Not sure how much more evidence anyone needs.

 

It comes do a simple statement.  History will repeat itself.

 

And I deny that insofar as it being a rational case study. There are a lot more variables at work than just 'it happened already, it'll happen again'. You're not giving me causation, not telling me how a war started or why, or what might happen to prevent a war long enough for us to achieve transcendence or synthesis. We have knowledge now behind the context of what the Reapers hope to achieve through their cycles. There is no manual or methodology to the Catalyst's conclusion, but a statement of that it came to its conclusion. In at least one of the scenarios in fact, it was the Reapers themselves that were instigating conflict: now, this can be interpreted as the Reapers jump starting a conflict to be able to achieve their own goals. As I said, I happen to agree with your outcome on this specific issue, just not with your reasoning or argument. It seems I do that a lot.

 

We need a lot more evidence to prove how and why this is the case.

[Fixers0]

Finally, the entire premise of the game/story/universe is that organics and synthetics will eventually fight.  It's sort of like a fundamental principle of physics in this game.  Without this premise there would be no need for the solution, AKA reapers.  But remember the point is synthetics will eventually exterminate organics if left unchecked.

 

 

It wasn't until the very end of  Mass effect 3 that this concept was introduced and then retroactively applied over to the entire series, up until that point the narrative which incredibely vague and inconsistent on the Reapers true motives and origins.  Bioware even thought it neccesary to create additional dlc to back up Starchild ramblings because nearly everyone believed it was pure, unbased nonsense. The purpose of the levianthan dlc was to conveniently create evidence that would back up starbrat's otherwise baseless claims.

 

In the first Mass Effect our main opposing force are the synthetic geth, however the conflict with them is never portrayed as stemming from the innate differences between man and machine. The Geth didn't attack Eden Prime or Feros because they were human colonies but rather because of the Prothean Beacon/Thorian, For all intents and purposes the Geth could have been a organic servant race like the collectors with little to no alteration to the plot.

 

The Reapers themselves do actually come close to representating the synthetic menace had they not been cast in sych extreme mysticism, The reapers were being portrayed as an Lovecraftian inspired unstoppable cosmic force who are whay our of league.

 

Mass Effect 2 ends up shooting itself in the foot though with the bizzare revelation that Reapers are not purely machine but rather made from organic goo pumed into a metal robot, throwing around terms like "essence to species" without bothering to explain what it means. ME3 then tries to frame this as a way to preserve said species yet it never really gets around explaing as to how melting humans down into liquid components counts as preservation.

[Goodmongo]

And I deny that insofar as it being a rational case study. There are a lot more variables at work than just 'it happened already, it'll happen again'. You're not giving me causation, not telling me how a war started or why, or what might happen to prevent a war long enough for us to achieve transcendence or synthesis. 

 

If you study human history and war you will find that the single biggest cause of wars is "tribal".  Tribal in this situation can refer to culture, religion, territory or race.  Almost every single war in human history has been fought over a "tribal" cause.

 

We also know that the longest lasting peaces after war was when the war had a clear cut victor.  And the absolute longest peaces were when genocide was involved.  Nasty stuff but history and human nature is nasty.

 

Now because we are still "tribal" animals I can safely say that wars will continue in the future.  

 

My reasoning is mainly based on what the catalyst said.  It said that synthetics and organics will fight.  And in the end synthetics will eventually win and organics will become extinct.

 

It wasn't until the very end of  Mass effect 3 that this concept was introduced and then retroactively applied over to the entire series, up until that point the narrative which incredibely vague and inconsistent on the Reapers true motives and origins.  Bioware even thought it neccesary to create additional dlc to back up Starchild ramblings because nearly everyone believed it was pure, unbased nonsense. The purpose of the levianthan dlc was to conveniently create evidence that would back up starbrat's otherwise baseless claims.

 

In almost every trilogy you don't know everything in the first novel.  Why should we know the motives of the reapers in ME1?  Remember the conversation?  Reapers thought organics very primitive and said they wouldn't understand.  I really don't see an issue not knowing till the end.  That's how most stories and novels work.

 

So even with more dialogue, more backstory, more evidence you don't like the outcome.  Fine.  But it proves my point in the other threads.  You are looking for a specific ending our outcome.  Anything else is a fail in your view.

[Rhaenyss]

Well, they were right, organics don't understand. Only it's just the moral aspect of it that they don't understand, not the concept itself. 

[themikefest]

Had the reapers not interfered, the quarians would've defeated the geth

[Goodmongo]

Had the reapers not interfered, the quarians would've defeated the geth

 

Seems that way.  But the Catalyst didn't say the Geth synthetics would win.  It only said eventually (millions of years?) synthetics would exterminate organics.

 

I'm going to have to buy and play the Leviathan DLC.  I've read it offers even more explanation on why the cycles happened.  I can even see that the Leviathans fought synthetics many times (winning) but came to the conclusion that each time it was harder to win and eventually they would lose.  Hence the cycles.  But that is conjecture on my part.

[Dantriges]

The catalyst never saw an event where synthetics exterminated all organics or all spacefaring organics unless you count his cyclical joyrides through the galaxy.

 

If you wanna know what the Leviathan says, there are videos. In short. Thrall races developed synthetics and got wiped out by them. We don´t know how often that happened and why, but it wasn´t an existential threat to the Leviathan until they got the bright idea to build one themselves and let it equip itself with enough resources to kill them. And this one calculated that it happens every time and to prevent that it had to turn his makers into goo before they create an AI that would destroy them.

 

Otherwise it would be rather questionable if any thrall race creation would have ever had the power to challenge the Leviathan. You know the guys who fried a reaper capital in a minute and could have enthralled other races into not constructing malicous AI. It´s sounds a lot like an decadent empire whose rulers were too lazy to actively manage their realm. The conclusions of the Catalyst are rather questionable IMO.

[Vanilka]

The catalyst never saw an event where synthetics exterminated all organics or all spacefaring organics unless you count his cyclical joyrides through the galaxy.

 

If you wanna know what the Leviathan says, there are videos. In short. Thrall races developed synthetics and got wiped out by them. We don´t know how often that happened and why, but it wasn´t an existential threat to them until they got the bright idea to build one themselves and let it equip itself with enough resources to kill them. And this one calculated that it happens every time and to prevent that it had to turn his makers into goo before they create an AI that would destroy them.

 

Otherwise it would be rather questionable if any thrall race creation would have ever had the power to challenge the Leviathan. You know the guys who fried a reaper capital in a minute and could have enthralled other races into not constructing malicous AI. It´s sounds a lot like an decadent empire whose rulers were too lazy to actively manage their realm. The conclusions of the Catalyst are rather questionable IMO.

 

Leviathan also creates more plotholes like, how were the most powerful beings in the galaxy harvested when there were no reapers and when they actually seem to have no problem sending a capital ship down in a matter of seconds. It also makes them look really dumb because they made a powerful synthetic to solve an issue with synthetics and thought they were too cool to fit into the pattern. They didn't even bother to check what the thing was doing. They have 50,000 year long breaks between the cycles, yet they do nothing to try to solve the issue for millions of years. And, exactly as you said, how freaking lazy is that? I mean, instead of trying to solve it themselves, they made a synthetic... when they knew synthetics were the problem.

 

While I understand that the Reapers kind of needed more motivation than "Hurr durr, EVULZ," they made more sense when they were just harvesting advanced species for some reason and "all organic life" was never in question. Especially because the idea of all organic life, including flowers and bacteria and stuff, being wiped out by big mean robots is silly. And sending big mean robots to solve such an issue is even sillier. Now this is my personal opinion so I doubt most people would agree with me, but I guess I liked the idea Vigil mentioned on Ilos - that it might be how they feed or reproduce because they can't do it any other way.

[The Heretic of Time]

Had the reapers not interfered, the quarians would've defeated the geth

 

Had the reapers not interfered, the protheans would have defeated their synthetic uprising as well.

 

It's ironic how the reapers' "solution" causes more trouble than it fixes. Not to mention that it's extremely hypocrite that they claim to protect organic life against synthetics while at the same time using the geth as their personal army to destroy the quarians.

[The Heretic of Time]

First, in the end the reapers are not misunderstood villains. You failed at understand this part of the ending. And you actually failed at understanding what Sovereign said because this aspect is based on what Sovereign said, they simply are.
Second, the no-explanation option of writing would leave the story in a very basic level ( good vs evil) which is impossible if you played Mass Effect 2, or maybe you didn't get that ME 2 was made to create a more subtle vision of the representations. What you want is to actually ignore the writing of the first two games.
That's what we call in writing being "incoherent".

 

 

PS: Go read H.P. Lovecraft and then tell me what Cthulhu's motivations are.... Oh wait, we don't get his motivations explained, his very existence stays a mystery until the end and yet he's considered one of the best monsters in literary history!

[Seboist]

The Reapers are an inconsistent mess, they're completely different in each game.

 

ME1: AI Ships with contempt for organics and whom used the Geth against them.

ME2: Cyborg ships that want to "ascend" the species with the best racial stock(like the "genetically diverse" humans) by turning them into goo and making them part of a Reaper.

ME3: Cyborg ships that want to "save" all organics from machines(whilst using machines like the Geth against them).

[angol fear]

 

 

PS: Go read H.P. Lovecraft and then tell me what Cthulhu's motivations are.... Oh wait, we don't get his motivations explained, his very existence stays a mystery until the end and yet he's considered one of the best monsters in literary history!

 

Ok smart guy, then you can't see the difference between a science fiction story and a horror story! Then you can't see the difference between an ancient god and a synthetics! You just confirmed what I was saying about your level of reading : thinking that Lovecraft and Bioware had the same purpose when they wrote, it's just totally absurd. Bioware didn't want to make the "best monsters", you wanted them to do so. And again you completely failed in understanding the writing of the two first games. (Maybe you didn't get it but implicitely I said that I have read Lovecraft!)