168 réponses à ce sujet

[MrFob]

So much for the Citadel relay being a crucial aspect of the Reaper cycle. Well they had to retcon that one didn't they?

 

I assume you are referring to the fact that the reapers just flew into our galaxy in the end in Arrival. Well, no one ever said that the Citadel relay was the only way for the reapers to get back into the Milky Way, it was just the most convenient way. In fact, we don't know how exactly the entire dark space hibernation thing actually worked.

 

I mean, think about it: The reapers built the citadel and a relay in dark space. How far our of the galaxy were they? If they were out further than their drive charge could carry them, how did they get that relay there in the first place?

Maybe they built a bread crumb trail of discharge stations. In that case, they might have used it to get back in Arrival.

 

I don't think the reapers had the technology to travel to another galaxy. At least, the would eliminate a whole lot of problems that the writers would have to deal with otherwise. The only question remains (and this is the main question that's bothering me about the new setting anyway): How do we get to Andromeda?

[Fixers0]

I assume you are referring to the fact that the reapers just flew into our galaxy in the end in Arrival. Well, no one ever said that the Citadel relay was the only way for the reapers to get back into the Milky Way, it was just the most convenient way. In fact, we don't know how exactly the entire dark space hibernation thing actually worked.

 

Vigil was pretty confident that thwarting Saren would trap the Reapers in Dark Space.

 

That and the fact that if the reapers could just fly into the galaxy there is no real reason as to why they would bother with the Citadel to begin with. if the Reapers wanted a point from which they could control all relays they could have just constructed one and hidden it somewhere or take it with them into Dark Space, but not having it be the centerpoint of the galaxy's governments. Of course this is all pre-starchild/catalyst-crucible garbage.

[Hanako Ikezawa]

So much for the Citadel relay being a crucial aspect of the Reaper cycle. Well they had to retcon that one didn't they?

The Reapers are all about efficiency. Leviathan tells us that the Reapers invented the Citadel and Mass Relays for that purpose. They can get to the galaxy conventionally, but it takes a few years. Meanwhile the Citadel shaves those years off by taking them to the galaxy instantaneously. 

[The Night Haunter]

Vigil was pretty confident that thwarting Saren would trap the Reapers in Dark Space.

 

That and the fact that if the reapers could just fly into the galaxy there is no real reason as to why they would bother with the Citadel to begin with. if the Reapers wanted a point from which they could control all relays they could have just constructed one and hidden it somewhere or take it with them into Dark Space, but not having it be the centerpoint of the galaxy's governments. Of course this is all pre-starchild/catalyst-crucible garbage.

The Citadel is set up so that primitive races (the Council) will use it as a hub for the government and miltary, thus when the Reapers use the Citadel to jump into the galaxy they immediately cut the head off their opposition. If you look at the early battles with the Reapers you'll notice several are destroyed / seriously injured. Had they succeeded in using the Citadel then there wouldn't have been time to prepare and thus wouldn't pose any threat to the Reapers.

 

Just because they could make a 3 year journey into the galaxy from the edge doesn't mean it is the most convenient or efficient method.

[Avilan II]

Oh look, it's this thread again.

 

NO, the Reapers never went to Andromeda. 

[Hanako Ikezawa]

Oh look, it's this thread again.

 

NO, the Reapers never went to Andromeda. 

Do you have proof? Just asking since you are so certain. 

[MrFob]

Vigil was pretty confident that thwarting Saren would trap the Reapers in Dark Space.

By his own admission, everything Vigil says is speculation and deduction from the prothean scientists on Illos. Whether he sounds confident or not, we do not have any first hand knowledge of what exactly was going on.

That and the fact that if the reapers could just fly into the galaxy there is no real reason as to why they would bother with the Citadel to begin with. if the Reapers wanted a point from which they could control all relays they could have just constructed one and hidden it somewhere or take it with them into Dark Space, but not having it be the centerpoint of the galaxy's governments. Of course this is all pre-starchild/catalyst-crucible garbage.

The point of the Citadel is that it is a trap, so that the reapers can come in and immediately wipe out the current galactic leadership in their initial attack, plus get all the information of the current cycle.
The question why they left the relay network controls there doesn't have any baring on this matter. his question is a good one but it poses itself, no matter how the reapers get into the galaxy.
Also, there were no reapers pre-catalyst.

EDIT: The only thing that really doesn't make sense at all is that we see the reapers REALLY far out of the galaxy in the final shot of ME2 (this makes even less sense if you play Arrival BEFORE finishing the game). But hay, that's the rule of cool in cutscenes trumping sense, just like it always does in ME games.

[The Night Haunter]

The proof is meta: the Developers want to distance themselves as far as possible from ME3 to avoid all that unpleasantness. Reapers were central to ME3, thus they shall not play any significant part in MEA (apart from potentially causing this exodus).

 

It isn't proof, but it wouldn't make any sense for Bioware to take us all the way to a new galaxy, to get a clean slate, just to bring Reapers along and muddy the waters from the very beginning.

[Hanako Ikezawa]

The proof is meta: the Developers want to distance themselves as far as possible from ME3 to avoid all that unpleasantness. Reapers were central to ME3, thus they shall not play any significant part in MEA (apart from potentially causing this exodus).

 

It isn't proof, but it wouldn't make any sense for Bioware to take us all the way to a new galaxy, to get a clean slate, just to bring Reapers along and muddy the waters from the very beginning.

Again, the Reapers having been there does not mean they are there. 

 

We've been to the moon. Does that mean there are people on the Moon? 

[Kabooooom]

Untrue. The conclusion the Reaper Intelligence came to was that organic life would inevitably create non-organic life which would then destroy said organic life. So all non-harvested galaxies would simply wind up creating AI's and then being slaughtered by them, maybe Mutually Destructive.

And if Reaper's start expending their energy in all other galaxies then they are going to get worn out and destroyed over time. The logical thing to do is let everyone in the other galaxies kill themselves while the Reapers preserve the Milky Way.

As to your last sentence: if the Reapers were defeated why are they back in the Milky Way? Anyone strong enough to beat the Reapers would realize they are too great a threat to just let go, and would have ensured they annihilated them.

This doesn't make sense. What makes you think that organic and synthetic life would mutually destroy each other? Obviously, there would be a victor. And that victor would be synthetic. And that synthetic life would then go on to dominate a given galaxy.

It is worth noting that this is exactly the reason why many people think that when we encounter alien life, it will be mechanical beings we encounter.

Also, defeating the Reapers is not equal to destroying them. Preventing the harvest, all subsequent harvests and their interaction with the species of Andromeda is equivalent to defeating them. How was this done? Unknown, but the Remnant have superadvanced technology. I'm sure an explanation could easily be made.

[The Night Haunter]

Again, the Reapers having been there does not mean they are there. 

 

We've been to the moon. Does that mean there are people on the Moon? 

You're ignoring the whole point: Bioware wants MEA to be separate from ME3, if you have Reapers anywhere or anytime in Andromeda that provides a clear link to ME3. I believe they want to avoid that as much as possible. Sure Reapers could be in Andromeda presently, could have visited there 50k years ago, but it is unnecessary to the plot (most likely, if Bioware really does want to separate MEA), and just brings some baggage into a pristine new galaxy. 

[Kabooooom]

When we talk to Sovereign he heavily implies that the Reapers in Dark Space are just chilling out there, conserving their energy for the next 'cycle'. No where in the established lore is it even hinted that Reapers decided to visit other galaxies. If they had then the remaining Leviathans could have utilized the hundreds of years absence such a journey would necessitate to build up their own tech once more and finalize a weapon to destroy the Reapers. The only reason the Leviathans decided that sitting on the bottom of an ocean for a few million years was a good idea is because they were so scared of the Reapers, and the Reapers were always watching.


If you want to create some logic and lore then it is entirely possible for Reapers to have visited every galaxy in the local cluster, hell they could have visited every galaxy in the universe. But I quite sincerely doubt Bioware will go that route, because it is boring. It is just retreading old roads and brings absolutely nothing new to the franchise (and it drags ME3 controversy into MEA which they are striving to avoid).

Sovereign is not who implied that. Vigil on Ilos was, and it had basically zero knowledge whatsoever about what the reapers actually DO during the interim between harvests. He was speaking as a biased source of information. It at best can be viewed as speculation.

[Kabooooom]

You're ignoring the whole point: Bioware wants MEA to be separate from ME3, if you have Reapers anywhere or anytime in Andromeda that provides a clear link to ME3. I believe they want to avoid that as much as possible. Sure Reapers could be in Andromeda presently, could have visited there 50k years ago, but it is unnecessary to the plot (most likely, if Bioware really does want to separate MEA), and just brings some baggage into a pristine new galaxy.

They dont want MEA to be separate from ME3. They want it to be separate from the ENDINGS and all major choices of ME3. Big, huge difference.

[Hanako Ikezawa]

You're ignoring the whole point: Bioware wants MEA to be separate from ME3, if you have Reapers anywhere or anytime in Andromeda that provides a clear link to ME3. I believe they want to avoid that as much as possible. Sure Reapers could be in Andromeda presently, could have visited there 50k years ago, but it is unnecessary to the plot (most likely, if Bioware really does want to separate MEA), and just brings some baggage into a pristine new galaxy. 

What baggage? Please, share. People say stuff like this but then they never give examples. 

 

 

Sovereign is not who implied that. Vigil on Ilos was, and it had basically zero knowledge whatsoever about what the reapers actually DO during the interim between harvests. He was speaking as a biased source of information. It at best can be viewed as speculation.

Vigil even states he only has hypotheses. 

No Reaper ever mentions any limitations to their range when it comes to their solution. 

[The Night Haunter]

This doesn't make sense. What makes you think that organic and synthetic life would mutually destroy each other? Obviously, there would be a victor. And that victor would be synthetic. And that synthetic life would then go on to dominate a given galaxy.

It is worth noting that this is exactly the reason why many people think that when we encounter alien life, it will be mechanical beings we encounter.

Also, defeating the Reapers is not equal to destroying them. Preventing the harvest, all subsequent harvests and their interaction with the species of Andromeda is equivalent to defeating them. How was this done? Unknown, but the Remnant have superadvanced technology. I'm sure an explanation could easily be made.

I never said they would, I said they might. The rest of the bolded really says nothing counter to what I said.

 

As for defeating the Reapers: If an alien race came to earth tomorrow and we beat them back (assume we invent cold-fusion tonight) then do you really think humanity would just say, 'Yay, we win! Lets sit here innocently worrying about our own stuff because those aliens that almost wiped us out certainly aren't going to come back and try again later!'. Of course not, we would immediately begin a program to retaliate and destroy the enemy (or force them into submission at least) to ensure our continued survival. That is essentially the entire premise behind Enders Game.

 

I suppose if the remnant were so advanced the Reapers actually didn't even pose a threat then they mightn't bother with them, but at that point why the heck didn't the remnant come to the Milky Way? If they can beat the Reapers then they should have established a multi-galaxy empire / federation.

[Valkyrja]

The existence of Mass Effect: Andromeda and the now-all-but-confirmed leak that they are soft rebooting the series to avoid ever addressing the reapers, the star child, the catalyst, or the ending.

 

The sooner people accept this the better.

[The Night Haunter]

 

What baggage? Please, share. People say stuff like this but then they never give examples. 

 

 

The messed up ME3 endings for starters. Simply reminding people of the Reapers reminds them of the catalyst, which was probably Bioware's poorest choice of antagonist in their entire history of game design. If there are Reaper corpses in Andromeda then it just becomes another Milky Way, with all the same questions.

Essentially anything that reminds people of Reapers/Catalyst/Red,Blue,Green nonsense is going to be a detraction from MEA, because it just reminds people that Bioware's last ME trilogy was great, up until its ending nearly destroyed the entire experience. 

 

Maybe you don't feel that way, and that's great for you, but too many people do. I remember coming to the Bioware forums after people started finishing ME3, it was pretty brutal. People made accounts just to complain about how crappy it was. It wasn't a vocal minority, it was a clear majority.

[Hanako Ikezawa]

The messed up ME3 endings for starters. Simply reminding people of the Reapers reminds them of the catalyst, which was probably Bioware's poorest choice of antagonist in their entire history of game design. If there are Reaper corpses in Andromeda then it just becomes another Milky Way, with all the same questions.

Essentially anything that reminds people of Reapers/Catalyst/Red,Blue,Green nonsense is going to be a detraction from MEA, because it just reminds people that Bioware's last ME trilogy was great, up until its ending nearly destroyed the entire experience. 

 

Maybe you don't feel that way, and that's great for you, but too many people do. I remember coming to the Bioware forums after people started finishing ME3, it was pretty brutal. People made accounts just to complain about how crappy it was. It wasn't a vocal minority, it was a clear majority.

Every piece of technology should remind them of that, since every piece of technology is based off tech the Reapers left for us. I don't see how having a Citadel and Mass Relays in Andromeda for example are any different, and they come with more benefits than drawbacks. 

[Fade9wayz]

@Daisy-023

At this point we can't affirm anything. The Reapers might have somehow gone to Andromeda, harvested it, and come back to the MW, or been strongly repelled by some higher advanced race which got instinct afterwards for some reason yet to discover. Or maybe they never went there because they were constrained by their programming to stay in MW (that the constraint wasn't mentioned in ME1/2/3 doesn't mean it isn't there).

However, if Bioware really intends to start over with a clean slate, Reapers shouldn't exist in MEA, and cut off any possible contact with the MW. The first would just lead to doing the same all over again which would be inane, disappointing and incredibly uncreative. The second, still having contact with the MW, forces them to make one of the RGB choices canon, which would erase the whole point of going to Andromeda in the first place. Personally, I don't want them in Andromeda at all, even in some hypothetical past. Let that particularly nasty and hobbling camel die and be forgotten.

Besides, there's no need for special, super-advanced tech/mass relay to get to Andromeda, or even any magic providential wormhole (these two solutions are too much deus ex machina for my taste, BW has already abused such plot trick quite enough already. Deus ex machinas were never a good plot device to begin with, even in antic Greece). The colonists would just need to use the tech they already have and let relativity do its thing. Sure 2500000 years will pass in the MW while the colonists travel, but considering keeping contact with the MW shouldn't be an option, I find it to be a rather elegant way to explain the travel, and why there's no point to going back to a galaxy which would have so radically changed in the meantime, that the colonists wouldn't recognize anything, and all those left behind would be long, long dead. I could be wrong and Bioware might go your way, but yeah, I'd find it sad and disappointing.

[The Night Haunter]

Every piece of technology should remind them of that, since every piece of technology is based off tech the Reapers left for us. I don't see how having a Citadel and Mass Relays in Andromeda for example are any different, and they come with more benefits than drawbacks. 

Actually they do come with drawbacks. Having no Citadel/Relay system in Andromeda makes the galaxy bigger (which they have flat out stated is their intent), and provides a reasonable explanation as to why we'd be stuck in a small corner of Andromeda rather than venturing across the entire galaxy like Shep did.

 

I sincerely doubt there will be Relays in Andromeda, and other tech isn't really a direct reminder of Reapers, even if it is based of their tech, because it has evolved (especially visually, which is a key factor for viewer association) beyond Prothean or Reaper tech, into Human tech.

ME engines, weapons, etc, are much more 'human' than 'reaper' by this point. Whereas the Citadel was clearly theirs and no-one else even came near matching that tech (except the protheans who created that mini-relay, which I think is an incredible scientific advancement that every in the ME universe just overlooks. They matched Reaper tech! Protheans really were bad-ass compared to the current cycle, lol).

 

You are correct though, that if someone tries hard enough they can associate anything in the ME universe to the Reapers, the question is how far away do the devs want to go and what is an unreasonable jump? The answer, to my mind, seems to be ME drives and such are ok, but Relays and up are bad.

 

 

This is all opinion, obviously, I hope I don't actually have to say that, but I will just in case someone decides to get all high and mighty and pretend that I am pretending to state facts.

[DarthSliver]

 

 

Maybe you don't feel that way, and that's great for you, but too many people do. I remember coming to the Bioware forums after people started finishing ME3, it was pretty brutal. People made accounts just to complain about how crappy it was. It wasn't a vocal minority, it was a clear majority.

 

Majority of people on the forums, you gotta remember all the people that visit the forums are just a minority of everyone that purchased the game. 

[The Night Haunter]

Majority of people on the forums, you gotta remember all the people that visit the forums are just a minority of everyone that purchased the game. 

That's what I was saying. People who don't normally visit the forums actually created accounts just to complain about ME3. It was also all over reddit, youtube and everywhere else. It was pretty clear that it wasn't the standard vocal minority, it was actually quite a lot of people.

Now I am talking about people who finish the game, which (judging by all the steam statistics for games I've played) tends to be about 1/2 the people who buy the game. So obviously half the people who bought the game never got to the point where they would care (which perplexes me greatly, why would you buy a game, and the third game in a series for that matter, and then not finish it?????).

 

So it wasn't just the normal rabble rousers here who were upset, it was a very, very large number of people.

[General TSAR]

BioWare writing leaves a lot to be desired. 

[Hanako Ikezawa]

 

However, if Bioware really intends to start over with a clean slate, Reapers shouldn't exist in MEA, and cut off any possible contact with the MW. The first would just lead to doing the same all over again which would be inane, disappointing and incredibly uncreative. The second, still having contact with the MW, forces them to make one of the RGB choices canon, which would erase the whole point of going to Andromeda in the first place. Personally, I don't want them in Andromeda at all, even in some hypothetical past. Let that particularly nasty and hobbling camel die and be forgotten.

1) How so? Just because they've been there in the past doesn't mean they'd be involved in the plot. 

2) No it doesn't. The conversations with the Milky Way just have to have different dialogue depending on your choices in the Shepard Trilogy. Bioware's done that for years. 

 

Besides, there's no need for special, super-advanced tech/mass relay to get to Andromeda, or even any magic providential wormhole (these two solutions are too much deus ex machina for my taste, BW has already abused such plot trick quite enough already. Deus ex machinas were never a good plot device to begin with, even in antic Greece). The colonists would just need to use the tech they already have and let relativity do its thing. Sure 2500000 years will pass in the MW while the colonists travel, but considering keeping contact with the MW shouldn't be an option, I find it to be a rather elegant way to explain the travel, and why there's no point to going back to a galaxy which would have so radically changed in the meantime, that the colonists wouldn't recognize anything, and all those left behind would be long, long dead. I could be wrong and Bioware might go your way, but yeah, I'd find it sad and disappointing.

Getting to Andromeda in a Mass Effect game without using the Mass Effect is nonsensical. It may as well be a new IP at that point. It's already lost a lot of what made it special to a lot of players, and this would remove even more. 

 

 

Actually they do come with drawbacks. Having no Citadel/Relay system in Andromeda makes the galaxy bigger (which they have flat out stated is their intent), and provides a reasonable explanation as to why we'd be stuck in a small corner of Andromeda rather than venturing across the entire galaxy like Shep did.

Just have the Mass Relays not activated by anyone yet and only use the ones in that cluster. There, done.

Bioware states eventually we will be exploring the entire galaxy, and the technology we have won't cut it. It wouldn't even cut it is the cluster is as big as the leak suggests. 

 

I sincerely doubt there will be Relays in Andromeda, and other tech isn't really a direct reminder of Reapers, even if it is based of their tech, because it has evolved (especially visually, which is a key factor for viewer association) beyond Prothean or Reaper tech, into Human tech.

ME engines, weapons, etc, are much more 'human' than 'reaper' by this point. Whereas the Citadel was clearly theirs and no-one else even came near matching that tech (except the protheans who created that mini-relay, which I think is an incredible scientific advancement that every in the ME universe just overlooks. They matched Reaper tech! Protheans really were bad-ass compared to the current cycle, lol).

So yet another iconic thing about the franchise, one of the biggest, is removed? Great. 

The Protheans being around a lot longer helped. Our cycle has only been spacefaring for about three millennium. Gave them more time to advance and spread out. 

[DarthSliver]

That's what I was saying. People who don't normally visit the forums actually created accounts just to complain about ME3. It was also all over reddit, youtube and everywhere else. It was pretty clear that it wasn't the standard vocal minority, it was actually quite a lot of people.

Now I am talking about people who finish the game, which (judging by all the steam statistics for games I've played) tends to be about 1/2 the people who buy the game. So obviously half the people who bought the game never got to the point where they would care (which perplexes me greatly, why would you buy a game, and the third game in a series for that matter, and then not finish it?????).

 

So it wasn't just the normal rabble rousers here who were upset, it was a very, very large number of people.

 

I was disappointed with ME3 ending so much I could only do one Trilogy run by the time PS3 got ME1. I want to do more but there just doesn't seem to be a point because ending choice shouldn't be there in the first place so Bioware could continue afterwards. I am one to believe IT because I believe Destroy is the real end all for METrilogy. Also because the ending just left me so empty made me feel what is the point of playing all the Mass Effects with that garbage. 

 

But I am one of the few I think that Bioware shouldn't fix it by just erasing it because I want to play METrilogy again so bad I would rather Bioware fix there mistake and bring meaning to the Trilogy rather than just run away. That is why I want a connection to happen, I would rather believe that we will go back to Milky Way in the future and the Andromeda setting is just so they could have more time to think of a fix for the ending choices of some sort.