78 réponses à ce sujet

[DaemionMoadrin]

Hello, welcome to another of my wordy threads. Please direct all complaints to my brain that won't let me rest despite a sleep deficit of 18 hours. "Post your idea! It's interesting! Do it now or you'll have forgotten it in the morning!" ... **** you, brain.

 

We know only very little of the next Mass Effect game and I don't want to get bogged down in details in this thread anyway. I'd like to discuss the story itself. Just the story, not the gameplay or any other element.

 

BioWare usually doesn't write a great story but more often than not they are very good at telling it. They have found a working recipe that, among other things, consists of surrounding the PC with memorable characters who make the world feel alive through their interactions.

 

The stories are good but they aren't outstanding or surprising (exceptions exist). In fact, they are predictable.

 

I wish for a better story than what we had in the past. Use less clichés. Tropes are good but use them properly and don't be heavy handed about it. Don't assume the players are too dumb to understand subtlety and stop hitting us with plot developments like bricks. Not everything needs to be explained over and over again, that just talks the plot to death.

 

We deserve a story that's a level or two above, "That's the bad guy, defeat him to win the game." or "You are the chosen one, accept your destiny and lead us to glory!" which summarize almost all BioWare games. Jade Empire handled it differently, it had a very good story and wasn't predictable despite giving hints about the surprises in advance.

Spoiler

Sun Li was an excellent villain. Clever, motivated, driven and still human. He wasn't one dimensional. The Spirit Monk reveal was different from BG's "You're the child of Bhaal", too.

 

Please don't repeat your usual MO, like introducing the villain in the beginning of the game and then let the PC hunt them until it ends in a final fight. It can be done much better, if one is less obvious about it. Best example:

Spoiler

Kreia was one of the best villains I encountered in a game so far. She helped you, supported you, taught you, saved your life. She used you to take revenge on her enemies, to reach her goals and when you interfered again, she fought you. Btw... KotOR2 received a patch today that enables native wide resolution support and allows to install the Restored Content mod through the Steam Workshop. This means I'm going to play it again. I'll never get any sleep...

 

Saren/Sovereign were shown in the first mission, which ruined any possible surprise. Imagine how much better the reveal at Virmire would have been if Saren had never been shown fully. Just a voice we hear, just an indistinct form in the shadow. Then he finally shows up personally and is more machine than man. Boom.

 

Please allow us to discover the plot piece by piece, give it time to develop properly. Don't rush us through it, don't restrict yourself to simple elements that can not be misunderstood. Be less obvious.

 

If Space Magic™ was used to set up the story, then it needs to be available to solve it, too... or there needs to be a good explanation why it can't.

 

Speaking of Space Magic™... please, no time travel for the main plot. It never works out, it is always messy and it can never be presented properly in a medium that is experienced in linear.

 

The PC doesn't have to succeed all the time. Allow defeats and setbacks, make us struggle, make it difficult. The victory will feel that much sweeter for it. The road to greatness isn't an easy one. Just this time, no Kai Leng. Thessia was handled badly and that's all I'll say about it here.

 

Tell the entire story in the game, don't distribute it over several mediums (no death on Twitter, no novels that explain what you need to know in the game etc). You can't just drop characters from a novel into your game and expect the player to know them. Please consider this as you write quests, we can not be expected to make a decision on information we don't have unless we read the comics, novels or blogs.

 

If there's a romance, then give it some influence or importance regarding the main story please. Have the game reflect that you're in a relationship (or not). It doesn't have to be much but there should be a noticable change.

 

Give us an exciting, new story. Don't rehash old stories. No chosen one, no prophecies, no deus ex machina.

 

Try to go for a grey morality or offer several choices of which we don't know the outcome because they are color coded. Ideally, avoid a black and white morality, it makes everything so ... generic and simple.

 

Last but not least: Be funny. Don't take yourself or ME too seriously. If you can make your audience laugh, you have almost won. Look at Portal 1+2. It has all elements of a horror story but it avoids being grim survival horror by using humor to lighten the mood. It keeps an excellent balance and the players are having fun while at the same time acknowledging that there is a serious story with mortal danger, too.

[The Night Haunter]

I agree, try to avoid the fantasy/sci-fi trope bin this time around. I know it is hard, but please be at least try to be original with the story. I did love ME1, but that story was a rehashed rehash of a rehash. Also the best romance you've done is Bastilla, and that is because it is central to the plot of KotOR, something that hasn't really been done since. Morrigan almost got there, but not quite.

[DaemionMoadrin]

Well, making the romance central might not work if there are several love interests in the game. I'd love to see it but I don't know how practical it would be. I'd already be happy with something minor like Bodhi abducting your lover, turning them into a vampire in BG2 and forcing you to kill them. No lover, no abduction.

[BabyPuncher]

No chosen one, no prophecies, no deus ex machina.

 

I literally cannot think of a single work of modern fiction that has played the 'chosen one' or 'prophecy' straight. That had has a chosen one or prophecy actually work out as described and not end up as some subversion or another.

 

Try to go for a grey morality or offer several choices of which we don't know the outcome because they are color coded. Ideally, avoid a black and white morality, it makes everything so ... generic and simple.

 

This very ridiculous notion that stories somehow gain intelligence and maturity simply existing with enough 'greyness' is largely behind the abyssal state of the writing industry as the whole. Any idiot can write a character or faction who is 'grey.' Writers accomplish utterly nothing by doing so alone, and yet that exact thing happens overwhelmingly often.

[DaemionMoadrin]

I literally cannot think of a single work of modern fiction that has played the 'chosen one' or 'prophecy' straight. That had has a chosen one or prophecy actually work out as described and not end up as some subversion or another.

 

I'm less concerned with modern fiction and more with BioWare games. In almost every single one of them they used those tropes in one form or another.

 

My point is, they aren't necessary for a good story at all.

 

This very ridiculous notion that stories somehow gain intelligence and maturity simply existing with enough 'greyness' is largely behind the abyssal state of the writing industry as the whole. Any idiot can write a character or faction who is 'grey.' Writers accomplish utterly nothing by doing so alone, and yet that exact thing happens overwhelmingly often.

 

Yeah, I agree. I don't think grey morality makes it automatically a better story but BioWare's love of the duality of good/evil, light/dark, paragon/renegade, open palm/closed fist is a limit they need to overcome. They are trapping themselves in those themes and by doing so ignore or overlook different options.

[BabyPuncher]

You have it backwards. Fiction in general is overwhelmingly stagnated by 'greyness,' not morality. The problem is moral characters being shoehorned into poorly written and pointless 'greyness' because writers mistakeningly think by the existence of 'greyness,' they've accomplished something.

[DaemionMoadrin]

You have it backwards. Fiction in general is overwhelmingly stagnated by 'greyness,' not morality. The problem is moral characters being shoehorned into poorly written and pointless 'greyness' because writers mistakeningly think by the existence of 'greyness,' they've accomplished something.

 

I don't know where you're going with your argument and at this point I don't believe it matters. Again, I don't care about general fiction, I care about stories BioWare writes. Was that not clear?

 

The world is grey, morality is fluid and depends on local traditions and the more complex the problem is, the less likely can you apply a solution from the black/white morality.

 

An author who chooses to set their story in a grey world usually does so to reflect the real world.

[BabyPuncher]

I don't know where you're going with your argument and at this point I don't believe it matters. Again, I don't care about general fiction, I care about stories BioWare writes. Was that not clear?

 

The world is grey, morality is fluid and depends on local traditions and the more complex the problem is, the less likely can you apply a solution from the black/white morality.

 

An author who chooses to set their story in a grey world usually does so to reflect the real world.

 

And one of the reasons Mass Effect has generally been a great series is that it has largely avoided this problem. Dragon Age has not been so lucky. Which is precisely why this sory of thing should be discouraged. So it doesn't become a problem.

 

An author who chooses to set their story in a grey world usually does so to reflect the real world.

 

No. They don't. They really, really don't.

[DaemionMoadrin]

And one of the reasons Mass Effect has generally been a great series is that it has largely avoided this problem. Dragon Age has not been so lucky. Which is precisely why this sory of thing should be discouraged. So it doesn't become a problem.

 

 

No. They don't. They really, really don't.

 

Great series, yes. Great stories? Not so much.

 

You are seeing causality where none exists.

 

Could you tell me about your credentials please? I am sure you are a literature expert who has researched this for years before making a sweeping statement over several genres. Because that would be arrogant and stupid and surely you are better than that. At least a source would be appreciated.

 

I've read thousands of books and I don't see any connection between the morality used/displayed in a story and the quality of the story itself. Even so I'd be hesistant to portray my experience as fact, because neither my sample size nor my "research" methods are sufficient.

 

 

To reiterate my point: BioWare has almost always presented stories that exist in a duality of extremes. Light/dark, good/evil. While conversations often allowed you a neutral or alternative option, the story itself didn't change. BioWare have locked themselves into this MO and by doing so they are working with limited options. That is the problem I see for their creativity.

For example: KotOR's story works for both Jedi and Sith... but you have to commit to one side even if you care for neither. You are always the representation of one side in the end.

 

Would allowing for more muddy decisions and grey morality make the story better? There's no guarantee for that. It won't make it worse either. What it does is giving the writers more options... to excel or to fail.

 

 

Btw... I am tired, so maybe I'm just not remembering it but... could you point out a good story with black and white morality?

[AlanC9]

I literally cannot think of a single work of modern fiction that has played the 'chosen one' or 'prophecy' straight. That had has a chosen one or prophecy actually work out as described and not end up as some subversion or another.

The Matrix?

[Il Divo]

The Matrix?

 

Well, for fear of being shot for bringing up the Matrix Reloaded, he could argue that the whole prophecy does turn out to be a lie. 

[DaemionMoadrin]

Well, for fear of being shot for bringing up the Matrix Reloaded, he could argue that the whole prophecy does turn out to be a lie. 

 

The entire Matrix was a lie. Both Neo and Agent Smith were programs, so they were still in some kind of virtual reality. Who knows if there ever were any actual humans in all three movies. ^^

 

Anyway, after discussing this one point for quite a while... is there nothing else worth talking about in my first post? :>

[Il Divo]

I'll definitely say I'm getting tired of morality scales, which sounds like you are a bit too. I'm not saying there can't be good or bad actions, but having them quantified as paragon +20 or renegade +5 often feels like it shifts the focus away from role-playing and turns it into a numbers game. 

 

While DA:O had companion favor, I was glad to see there was no actual Open Palm/Closed Fist scale or something equivalent. 

[WittyUsername]

While Saren's villain status was rushed, I did feel like they handled Sovereign rather well. I wasn't expecting the ship to be alive, much less sentient, I just thought it was a badass Geth ship or something. Then when Sovereign spoke to me, that was a great moment. But maybe that's too common in Bioware games? I only played the ME series and KotOR 1 (tried playing 2 but that game has aliens talk MUCH faster than I can read. Aaaand that's not a Bioware game, an Obsidian one).

 

As far as the morality, I'd kinda miss the Renegade/Paragon deal, because I'm a bit of a traditionalist for some things. However, I'd like it if the numbers were in the back, perhaps not shown, but depending on how you act, it could affect the way people talk and treat you.

[DaemionMoadrin]

While Saren's villain status was rushed, I did feel like they handled Sovereign rather well. I wasn't expecting the ship to be alive, much less sentient, I just thought it was a badass Geth ship or something. Then when Sovereign spoke to me, that was a great moment. But maybe that's too common in Bioware games? I only played the ME series and KotOR 1 (tried playing 2 but that game has aliens talk MUCH faster than I can read. Aaaand that's not a Bioware game, an Obsidian one).

 

As far as the morality, I'd kinda miss the Renegade/Paragon deal, because I'm a bit of a traditionalist for some things. However, I'd like it if the numbers were in the back, perhaps not shown, but depending on how you act, it could affect the way people talk and treat you.

 

Sovereign's reveal on Virmire was done well. The rest of it... not so much.

 

I probably should point out that I still play the BioWare games, even the old ones. I like them a lot, even when I'm aware of their weak spots. The only one I don't play is DA:I and who knows how I'll feel about that in 2-3 years. That's how long it took for me to replay ME3.

 

So when I'm talking about issues with the games I'm not malicious or anything. I am no longer a "BioWare can do no wrong" fan but I can't deny that their games were entertaining and in the end that is all that's required from a game.

 

They can do better though.

[AlexiaRevan]

The most important point TIE THE STORY TO THE MAPS !!!!! NO CODEX either...Thats not story telling . Some peoples eat codex for breakfast but I'm not playing to click on codex to get a back story and read the Journal . 

[Oldren Shepard]

Agree with the grey morality and if you're defeated the story continue in other way

since homeland or game of thrones present it maybe a treason from the inside, if our companions doesn't agree with us they left us or at some point try to stop us

[Valkyrja]

I hope this has better pacing than some of BioWare's other games.

[Bullseye1]

I'd be happy with a more personal goal/storyline to the game rather than being the savior of world. Something central to your squad maybe. They excel at writing with the characters, so stick with what they are good at doing.

Including an actual time limit in the game do a mission would be a nice change to their games, with consequences if you've gone off and done 20 side quests first. You have to pick and choose the missions you do. Bioware probably never does this since it adds too much work making the game having to account for all the possibilities.

[Krymzon74]

Kreia was masterfully done. Had her figured after the first conversation on the Ebon Hawk but she remains one of my favorite characters of all time.

Personally I thought Sovereign was pretty well done. That conversation on Virmire was chilling. "You exist because we allow it. You will end because we demand it." And you said there are more of you? *uncomfortable realization* Loved it!

Too few details out for me to form an opinion yet but I have mixed feelings about the stranger in a strange land space cowboy thing we saw in the reveal. At this point I'm just hoping we get some interesting companions. No more Jacobs please!

[Sully13]

Id be happy with something less Apocalypsy

[Ahriman]

That's good and all, but the plot is already written. What's the point of asking such things now?

Try to go for a grey morality or offer several choices of which we don't know the outcome because they are color coded. Ideally, avoid a black and white morality, it makes everything so ... generic and simple.

Yeah, like Cerberus, so grey much complex. We are torturing people a bit, but we are doing it for humaaaanity.

These grey choices been mainstream for years now. If writer fails, he fails in any kind of choices.

[Feybrad]

So, I'm going to go all out on this One here.

 

I'd love to a Story in the same Vein as DA2.

 

There were so many great Things about the game and they Way they built it's Story with the three Acts and Friendship/Rivalry System and Stuff. It was personal, it had several gut-wrenching Moments, it had potentially great and potentially complex Companions and Characters, it arguably had an absolutely superb "Villain" in the Arishok, the Confrontations with whom could be handled in several different Ways, you could pursue very different Stances on almost every Issue (especially regarding Companions and their Opinions on Things - which they actually had and stood up for!) and the Protagonist actually had Personalit(ies).

 

If that Game would have had more Time to itself, so it could have been polished and optimized, it would probably have been the best BioWare Game out there. Unfortunately, that was not the Case and we ended up with half of a good Game that soured Fan-Opinion about many, many great storytelling Approaches.

[DaemionMoadrin]

I hope this has better pacing than some of BioWare's other games.

 

Oh, I forgot to mention pacing! Thank you for the reminder.

 

I'd be happy with a more personal goal/storyline to the game rather than being the savior of world. Something central to your squad maybe. They excel at writing with the characters, so stick with what they are good at doing.

Including an actual time limit in the game do a mission would be a nice change to their games, with consequences if you've gone off and done 20 side quests first. You have to pick and choose the missions you do. Bioware probably never does this since it adds too much work making the game having to account for all the possibilities.

 

As far as we know, the impact of the story on the galaxy will be much, much smaller than in ME3.

 

I like time limits like that. You still don't have to rush through the game but there is a sense of urgency. Unlike the ballroom in DA:I where an actual timer ran down and prevented you from taking your time.

 

That's good and all, but the plot is already written. What's the point of asking such things now?

Yeah, like Cerberus, so grey much complex. We are torturing people a bit, but we are doing it for humaaaanity.

These grey choices been mainstream for years now. If writer fails, he fails in any kind of choices.

 

No, no. Cerberus was not grey, not at all. The Lazarus cell was all you saw of it in ME2 and those were squeaky clean. White morality all around. In ME3 Cerberus was evil, with no exception... because all the good guys left or were killed off. Black morality.

 

Grey morality would be something like an anti-hero or vigilante, someone who breaks the law, threatens people and makes deals with villains in order to do good. "For the greater good" is a good indicator.

 

So, I'm going to go all out on this One here.

 

I'd love to a Story in the same Vein as DA2.

 

There were so many great Things about the game and they Way they built it's Story with the three Acts and Friendship/Rivalry System and Stuff. It was personal, it had several gut-wrenching Moments, it had potentially great and potentially complex Companions and Characters, it arguably had an absolutely superb "Villain" in the Arishok, the Confrontations with whom could be handled in several different Ways, you could pursue very different Stances on almost every Issue (especially regarding Companions and their Opinions on Things - which they actually had and stood up for!) and the Protagonist actually had Personalit(ies).

 

If that Game would have had more Time to itself, so it could have been polished and optimized, it would probably have been the best BioWare Game out there. Unfortunately, that was not the Case and we ended up with half of a good Game that soured Fan-Opinion about many, many great storytelling Approaches.

 

Agreed. I love DA2.

[Ahriman]

No, no. Cerberus was not grey, not at all. The Lazarus cell was all you saw of it in ME2

Huh?

 

White morality all around.

Grey morality would be something like an anti-hero or vigilante, someone who breaks the law, threatens people and makes deals with villains in order to do good. "For the greater good" is a good indicator. []

Project Overlord? Project Ctulhu? Project Jack? Collector base? TIM?