312 réponses à ce sujet

[TheKomandorShepard]

It only happens after Sebastian leave, for him all of them might have helped Anders.

Companions leave before you can decide what to do with anders and what can lead to sebastian leaving.

 

Also you tell anders to leave in front of sebastian.

[Boost32]

Then you helped him escape.

[TheKomandorShepard]

Then you helped him escape.

Im pretty sure hawke didn't in such scenario ,just didn't killed him pretty much big difference.

[Sifr]

"We have a prince in Starkhaven, a margrave in Ansburg, a teyrn in Ostwick and a viscount in Kirkwall... yet we accept no king in the Free Marches"

 

In other words, if Sebastian attempts to invade the city, does anyone really think that the other Marcher states would stand for him attempting to "unite" the two cities under his rule? Seems like it'd be a decent excuse for the other Marcher states to use that as a precident for a little expanionism of their own, using the similar claim they were simply doing the Maker's work and trying to make sure that the other cities were free from corruption.

 

Even the justification that he gave the Inquisition for invading Kirkwall if Anders was spared was extremely weak... does he honestly expect anyone to believe that Anders would remain in the city after blowing up the Chantry and becoming public enemy number one, in not just the city itself, but currently most of Thedas?

 

This is part of why I support Aveline in kicking him out of Kirkwall, I'd far prefer her to run the city than let Zealotry McRighteous have it.

 

[Iakus]

Meh, I don't have a single game where I let that church-bomber live.

 

So Sebastian always sends humanitarian aid rather than an invasion force.  I'm happy.  

[Boost32]

Im pretty sure hawke didn't in such scenario ,just didn't killed him pretty much big difference.

Anders was in Hawke's custody, Hawke allowed him leave, so yes Hawke helped him.

"We have a prince in Starkhaven, a margrave in Ansburg, a teyrn in Ostwick and a viscount in Kirkwall... yet we accept no king in the Free Marches"
 
In other words, if Sebastian attempts to invade the city, does anyone really think that the other Marcher states would stand for him attempting to "unite" the two cities under his rule? Seems like it'd be a decent excuse for the other Marcher states to use that as a precident for a little expanionism of their own, using the similar claim they were simply doing the Maker's work and trying to make sure that the other cities were free from corruption.
 
Even the justification that he gave the Inquisition for invading Kirkwall if Anders was spared was extremely weak... does he honestly expect anyone to believe that Anders would remain in the city after blowing up the Chantry and becoming public enemy number one, in not just the city itself, but currently most of Thedas?
 
This is part of why I support Aveline in kicking him out of Kirkwall, I'd far prefer her to run the city than let Zealotry McRighteous have it.
 

Yes they would, everyone is trying to conquer Kirkwall. Just read Kirkwall's codex.

Meh, I don't have a single game where I let that church-bomber live.
 
So Sebastian always sends humanitarian aid rather than an invasion force.  I'm happy.  

See people? Sebastian is a true hero! Just kill the abomination and you will see how great he is.

[Uccio]

Ugh. Mel Gibson does not own the word "Freedom".
 

But it suits better with Anders.

[TheKomandorShepard]

Anders was in Hawke's custody, Hawke allowed him leave, so yes Hawke helped him.

Again if he helped him he would give him a hand ,in that scenario he didn't he just lets anders leave and cuts ties with him in front of sebastian.

Not to mention Hawke again isn't in kirkwall anymore and again Aveline could leave hawke before s/he could even decide anders fate.

 

So no in those scenarios aveline pretty much wasn't anders associate not more than sebastian was. 

[Andromelek]

If Hawke sided with mages, he left Kirkwall too, so, Sebastian still being a stupid complaining btch who screws innocent lives on a tantrum, think about it, if he is too concerned to catch Anders, why the idiot didn't ask the Inquisition track him? why he didn't went after Varric to interrogate him? Instead he just go to screw even more a city with enough problems, and he couldn't win his own fight, he had to ask aid of an organization that is able to take over Ferelden.

[Sifr]

Yes they would, everyone is trying to conquer Kirkwall. Just read Kirkwall's codex.

 

People are always trying to invade Kirkwall, doesn't mean that they've succeeded... and as the codex entry notes, most of these deluded would-be kings have ended up in various states of dismemberment at the hands of the militia.

 

The codex never states that it's the rulers of the other city-states that have attempted taken over. While the other cities probably wouldn't mind seeing Kirkwall destablised further or ruled via a puppet-king they could control (like what happened in Starkhaven after the death of the Vaels), we don't know if any of them are responsible, or whether it's just a series of lords, mercenaries or criminals who are trying to seize power for themselves.

[teh DRUMPf!!]

Yup, same here. Aveline has done so much for Kirkwall, I'd never ask her to surrender to the likes of Sebastian, who has become the kind of fanatic whose designs I just love to thwart. 

 

I like Aveline as much as the next guy, and more than I like SeaBass, but let's face the facts here. Has Aveline's tenure as Guard-Captain put so much as a dent in Kirkwall's rampant crime? "Costs are up, but injuries are down," she says. What about, you know, crime? There is nothing to indicate she has. On the contrary, Kirkwall never seems to improve after her promotion (if anything, it only appears to get worse), even if we give her a pass on the Qunari invasion and the Circle fiasco.

 

Three whole years and it still took Hawke of all people to stop the Kirkwall Killer. And damn but if you don't get her married then some of the guard will defect and join disgraced Captain Jeven (mind you, I found this whole sub-story to be questionable from a writing standpoint).

 

Perhaps Guard-Captain does not have the station to make enough difference, but that is just more argument for a change of leadership above her.

 

If players are gung-ho about Anders killing innocents and causing collateral-damage for a good cause, why not Sebastian for killing armed combatants and causing collateral-damage to bring this crime-infested cesspool under the control of the Free Marches' richest city-state?

[MisterJB]

 

It's time for the Free Marches to be unified under the wise guidance of their imperial majesties, the Trevelyans.

[Sifr]

I like Aveline as much as the next guy, and more than I like SeaBass, but let's face the facts here. Has Aveline's tenure as Guard-Captain put so much as a dent in Kirkwall's rampant crime? "Costs are up, but injuries are down," she says. What about, you know, crime? There is nothing to indicate she has. On the contrary, Kirkwall never seems to improve after her promotion (if anything, it only appears to get worse), even if we give her a pass on the Qunari invasion and the Circle fiasco.

 

Three whole years and it still took Hawke of all people to stop the Kirkwall Killer. And damn but if you don't get her married then some of the guard will defect and join disgraced Captain Jeven (mind you, I found this whole sub-story to be questionable from a writing standpoint).

 

Perhaps Guard-Captain does not have the station to make enough difference, but that is just more argument for a change of leadership above her.

 

If players are gung-ho about Anders killing innocents and causing collateral-damage for a good cause, why not Sebastian for killing armed combatants and causing collateral-damage to bring this crime-infested cesspool under the control of the Free Marches' richest city-state?

 

The thing about Kirkwall is that it's like Thedas' equivalent to Gotham City, one cannot say that Aveline and Commissioner Gordon are doing a bad job simply because both places are still crime-ridden and filled with lunatics running around, often in weird costumes... heck, even with someone like Hawke or Batman taking the law into their own hands to deal with the criminal elements, crime doesn't vanish because two good people are making a difference.

 

I'd say that part of the reason there was an increase in crime over the course of the game was less down to the guard being ineffective under her leadership, as much as the fact that the criminal elements were thriving as the city fell more into disarray due to political environment.

 

Throughout the first and second act of DA2, the Viscount shows that he's a weak, ineffectual leader who lets Meredith and the Arishok walk all over him, while in the third act we see that Meredith has turned the city into a police-state and becoming increasingly despotic. Both were perfect situations for crime to take over, as both the leadership and law became more concerned about the Qunari or Apostates to focus on the "minor" threats posed by the local crimelords.

 

In the third act, it became even more difficult for Aveline as Meredith wanted to consolidate power and have the guard fall under Templar jurisdiction, which made an already hard job near-impossible. How are you supposed to focus on stopping a crimewave when you have your former corrupt boss and the Templars trying to subvert your authority in an attempt to oust you from your position?

[teh DRUMPf!!]

The thing about Kirkwall is that it's like Thedas' equivalent to Gotham City, one cannot say that Aveline and Commissioner Gordon are doing a bad job simply because both places are still crime-ridden and filled with lunatics running around, often in weird costumes... heck, even with someone like Hawke or Batman taking the law into their own hands to deal with the criminal elements, crime doesn't vanish because two good people are making a difference.

Cmsr. Gordon and Batman are shown to at least somewhat curb crime in their city.

I am trying to think of a single piece of evidence that Aveline brought crime in Kirkwall down even one iota. I am at a loss.

I would invite you to show me any such evidence, but I think you would have brought it up if it existed rather than make excuses for her, so...

 

I'd say that part of the reason there was an increase in crime over the course of the game was less down to the guard being ineffective under her leadership, as much as the fact that the criminal elements were thriving as the city fell more into disarray due to political environment.

Which, again, is more reason for the leadership at the top to be stronger.

Starkhaven can do Kirkwall some good, if Kirkwall even has any hope for it.

[Boost32]

Again if he helped him he would give him a hand ,in that scenario he didn't he just lets anders leave and cuts ties with him in front of sebastian.
Not to mention Hawke again isn't in kirkwall anymore and again Aveline could leave hawke before s/he could even decide anders fate.
 
So no in those scenarios aveline pretty much wasn't anders associate not more than sebastian was.

How Hawke didnt have a hand in that? Anders was right there, you not only didnt kill him but allowed him to leave.
The only scenario I can see it is if Aveline left and doesnt return, only that.

[Boost32]

People are always trying to invade Kirkwall, doesn't mean that they've succeeded... and as the codex entry notes, most of these deluded would-be kings have ended up in various states of dismemberment at the hands of the militia.
 
The codex never states that it's the rulers of the other city-states that have attempted taken over. While the other cities probably wouldn't mind seeing Kirkwall destablised further or ruled via a puppet-king they could control (like what happened in Starkhaven after the death of the Vaels), we don't know if any of them are responsible, or whether it's just a series of lords, mercenaries or criminals who are trying to seize power for themselves.

The codex stated that it was caused by the power vacuum in the city.
And do you really believe in that excuse? "Just a série of lords, mercenaries or criminals"? Yeah, they have a huge army to take Kirkwall.

[George-Kinsill]

"We have a prince in Starkhaven, a margrave in Ansburg, a teyrn in Ostwick and a viscount in Kirkwall... yet we accept no king in the Free Marches"

 

In other words, if Sebastian attempts to invade the city, does anyone really think that the other Marcher states would stand for him attempting to "unite" the two cities under his rule? Seems like it'd be a decent excuse for the other Marcher states to use that as a precident for a little expanionism of their own, using the similar claim they were simply doing the Maker's work and trying to make sure that the other cities were free from corruption.

 

Even the justification that he gave the Inquisition for invading Kirkwall if Anders was spared was extremely weak... does he honestly expect anyone to believe that Anders would remain in the city after blowing up the Chantry and becoming public enemy number one, in not just the city itself, but currently most of Thedas?

 

This is part of why I support Aveline in kicking him out of Kirkwall, I'd far prefer her to run the city than let Zealotry McRighteous have it.

 

Another reason why my inquisitor (a human noble from Ostwick) opposed Sebastian. The human noble inquisitor is basically an uncorrupted version of Sebastian and was brought up in a political environment all about preserving the balance of power lest all of the Free Marcher states suffer.

 

Also, as for Sebastian getting his revenge, it would be far better if he simply started his own band of followers and went after Anders. He could ask the Inquisition to track him down or even still engage in some brutality by hunting mages in order to provoke a reaction from Anders. Invading one of the three largest cities in the Free Marches is all around a poorly thought of idea. Sebastian himself comments while Meredith and Orsino argue as to why they are talking about killing all of the mages when the one responsible is standing next to them. I am fine with my not well thought out choice resulting in a very vengeful Sebastian, I am just not sure if that was the way to go. Since it is the way Bioware decided to take his character though, Cullen is going to get a nice reunion. 

[TheKomandorShepard]

How Hawke didnt have a hand in that? Anders was right there, you not only didnt kill him but allowed him to leave.
The only scenario I can see it is if Aveline left and doesnt return, only that.

Not killing someone ≠ helping someone

 

Some of my hawkes didn't want to be judge if sebastian wanted to kill him it was his call he had a chance. 

 

And even existance of that scenario proves that wasn't sebastian goal ,simple misplaced revenge on kirkwall because he didn't got what he wanted .Also in any of those scenarios aveline wasn't associated with anders nor she could know about where anders currently is ,same for hawke.

[Sifr]

Cmsr. Gordon and Batman are shown to at least somewhat curb crime in their city.

I am trying to think of a single piece of evidence that Aveline brought crime in Kirkwall down even one iota. I am at a loss.

I would invite you to show me any such evidence, but I think you would have brought it up if it existed rather than make excuses for her, so...

 

I'm sorry, at what point did you expect in Hawke's rags-to-riches story to suddenly require the players to be given the information of the crucial day-to-day operations of the Kirkwall city guard under Aveline's tenure? Helping Aveline with her paperwork and reading crime reports, truly, that would have been thrilling gameplay... akin to those wonderful senate meetings in the Star Wars prequels!

 

 

The codex stated that it was caused by the power vacuum in the city.
And do you really believe in that excuse? "Just a série of lords, mercenaries or criminals"? Yeah, they have a huge army to take Kirkwall.

 

Well, factoring in that in feudal societies a lot of powerful lords do have the money to fund their own private armies (the army at Ostagar was mostly comprised of those belonging to the bannorn), mercenaries are often called hired for that purpose (Adaar can mention fighting against an army in the past) and criminal groups as the Carta and Coterie are a small army unto themselves... it's not like each of those groups don't have the necessary manpower to try to make an ill-fated bid for power?

 

Clearly not a huge army that could successfully take the city, which is part of why the militia are able to beat them back repeatedly. Even the Qunari for all their military prowess could never have hoped to hold Kirkwall during their takeover, since their fighting force consisted of the inhabitants of one single dreadnought. Even Sebastian with the armies of Starkhaven still needed the help of the Inquisition to try to gain ground in Kirkwall, because he couldn't hold the city without resistance.

[Master Warder Z_]

I'm sorry, at what point did you expect in Hawke's rags-to-riches story to suddenly require the players to be given the information of the crucial day-to-day operations of the Kirkwall city guard under Aveline's tenure? Helping Aveline with her paperwork and reading crime reports, truly, that would have been thrilling gameplay... akin to those wonderful senate meetings in the Star Wars prequels!

 

Considering how her guards preformed under fire...their track record likely isn't great to be honest anyway.

 

Evet's Marauders were ripping them apart like wet tissue. 

[Ariella]

Cmsr. Gordon and Batman are shown to at least somewhat curb crime in their city.

I am trying to think of a single piece of evidence that Aveline brought crime in Kirkwall down even one iota. I am at a loss.

I would invite you to show me any such evidence, but I think you would have brought it up if it existed rather than make excuses for her, so...

Actually, think less Gotham and more Sunnydale. Kirkwall is the Hellmouth, literally. Thus the near apocalypse ever other week.

Aveline is fighting against the tide, and she knows it. But it doesn't make the fight or her successes less worthy.

[Sifr]

Considering how her guards preformed under fire...their track record likely isn't great to be honest anyway.

 

Evet's Marauders were ripping them apart like wet tissue. 

 

True, but Lt Harley did say they weren't expecting to encounter an enemy as tough as Evet's Marauders on what was meant to be a routine patrol of the coast, so they were a bit undermanned for the enemy they were facing. Plus it didn't help that their enemy had a blood mage in their ranks (even if gameplay-wise, Fell Orden is the easiest to kill), which is something they aren't exactly trained to deal with since they're not Templars.

[thats1evildude]

They did manage to corner Evet's Marauders, though. The pirates couldn't run, and with reinforcements, the guards were able to take out the lot.