312 réponses à ce sujet

[Master Warder Z_]

True, but Lt Harley did say they weren't expecting to encounter an enemy as tough as Evet's Marauders on what was meant to be a routine patrol of the coast, so they were a bit undermanned for the enemy they were facing. Plus it didn't help that their enemy had a blood mage in their ranks (even if gameplay-wise, Fell Orden is the easiest to kill), which is something they aren't exactly trained to deal with since they're not Templars.

 

Didn't they mention that same group literally storming the keep and breaking folks out of prison in that same quest just a while back?

 

It seems they really do poorly against those guys...its like their Kryptonite. 

[teh DRUMPf!!]

I'm sorry, at what point did you expect in Hawke's rags-to-riches story to suddenly require the players to be given the information of the crucial day-to-day operations of the Kirkwall city guard under Aveline's tenure? Helping Aveline with her paperwork and reading crime reports, truly, that would have been thrilling gameplay... akin to those wonderful senate meetings in the Star Wars prequels!
 

 

Oh I dunno, you could always claim that there is a note in the Western Approach written by Venatori agents about how much crime has decreased in Kirkwall -- a note that is so elusive that nobody can reproduce it for the discussion at hand!

 

Sound familiar?? 

 

Other than notes that the PC could pick up, the writers could have also had bystanders say something to indicate that there is less crime in the city through idle-dialogue (which there is plenty of through the game). Bottom line, it would be a simple matter for the writers to get this kind of point across if they wanted to, which would in no way require being burdened with busy work as you claim (in a desperate attempt to distract away from the fact you cannot produce any evidence, no doubt). However, this point has never been made despite the relative ease.

 

Face it, man: there is no evidence to support your stance.

[Sifr]

Oh I dunno, you could always claim that there is a note in the Western Approach written by Venatori agents about how much crime has decreased in Kirkwall -- a note that is so elusive that nobody can reproduce it for the discussion at hand!

 

Sound familiar?? 

 

Other than notes that the PC could pick up, the writers could have also had bystanders say something to indicate that there is less crime in the city through idle-dialogue (which there is plenty of through the game). Bottom line, it would be a simple matter for the writers to get this kind of point across if they wanted to, which would in no way require being burdened with busy work as you claim (in a desperate attempt to distract away from the fact you cannot produce any evidence, no doubt). However, this point has never been made despite the relative ease.

 

Face it, man: there is no evidence to support your stance.

 

Okay, I have to ask... what in the name of sanity are you talking about?

 

I don't believe that I ever made any such claim that Aveline's tenure as guard captain magically lowered the crime rate in the city? In fact, if you'd bothered to read my initial rebuttal, I actually agreed with you that the crime rate had increased across the game's three acts.

 

What I disagreed with you with however, was that you supposed it was down to Aveline's ineffectual leadership being responsible.

 

My point and argument against this, was that the deteriorating situation within Kirkwall, such as the political unease between the Chantry, the Qunari, the Templars and the Rebel Mages, meant that the guard was increasingly forced to deal with a bunch of civil unrest and chaotic situations, in addition to their regular duties and trying to prevent the rampant crime already within the city. With the guard stretched thin, it was no wonder that the city's criminal elements would exploit this to gain more of a presence in the city.

 

Next time, kindly read the case presented before rushing to the cross-examining. I don't mind defending my position, but I'd like to be on the same page when doing it and not defend one that I didn't actually make in the first place.

 

[Deztyn]

Huh. This thread moved fast.

Josephine recommends staying out of it. Leliana is the one who wants to support Sebastian.

Leliana advocates encouraging Kirkwall's forces to withdraw to minimize the loss of life, and implanting Inquisition agents in his inner circle as advisors to keep his ambitions in check.

None of your advisors wholeheartedly support Sebastian. Which makes me sad. Because if there is anywhere in Thedas that needs to be cleansed by fire it is Kirkwall.

Which kinda makes sense - Leliana's still in mourning for Justinia, who died at the Conclave meant to end the war that's using Anders' name as a rallying cry.

Uh. Even the mages hate Anders. Since, you know, most of them are Andrastians who frown on Grand Clerics being blown up, dislike having most of the Andrastian world turn against them, and are also not terribly fond of having their rights and already limited freedoms further restricted in the post-Anders Templar crackdown which made the lives of most Circle mages lucky enough not to be annulled, absolutely miserable.

He is not a rallying cry. The founders of the Rebellion think he was a d-bag. They also don't want to be associated with him, lest the world think that they too support blowing up Chantries and the indiscriminate slaughter of the faithful masses.

Pretty much the only person in Thedas who still likes Anders is Hawke, depending.

Still, yeah, I unquestioningly go along with Cullen on this one. Sebastian even acknowledges that a living Anders has long since fled Kirkwall. He just wants to get revenge, go after anyone who may have harbored him. He has learned nothing, he's stuck in the same place he was the day he puts that request on the Chanter's board. 'Someone hurt me, I hurt them back.'

Sebastian thinks he may have left Kirkwall. No way to be sure until it's razed to the ground and all his supporters have been handled though.

He is, effectively, the poster boy for the Chantry. After all, the foundation of their religion is 'mages killed our God's mortal prophet, therefore mages need to be locked up and be treated as subhuman.'

Odd. I thought the foundation of their religion was the belief that The Maker had turned away from his children for worshipping false gods, and would only return once the Chant of Light was sung throughout all of Thedas. The Chant which only really condemns maleficar, demons and Magisters and not so much mages or magic in general. The whole Circle thing came later. . . and was meant to be a place where mages could safely practice their magic in an environment that kept them protected from the mage hating rabble, while also keeping the rabble safe from the abuses of mages. Maybe I'm misremembering.

If players are gung-ho about Anders killing innocents and causing collateral-damage for a good cause, why not Sebastian for killing armed combatants and causing collateral-damage to bring this crime-infested cesspool under the control of the Free Marches' richest city-state?

Because He didn't do it for Freeeeedoooooom.

Duh.

[Sifr]

None of your advisors wholeheartedly support Sebastian. Which makes me sad. Because if there is anywhere in Thedas that needs to be cleansed by fire it is Kirkwall.

 

Cullen suggestion to help Aveline and the rebellion kick Sebastian out, actually is rather telling... after all, he lived in Kirkwall for nearly a decade and dealt with a lot of insane things as a Templar, especially in the aftermath of the Chantry explosion. Yet even he doesn't want to see the city razed to the ground and have the people suffer more because of Sebastian's vendetta and misplaced retribution.

 

It's not that Sebastian is a bad man (because he's not), but becoming a militant zealot who justifies his violent actions as being for the greater good, he's no better than Anders (or even the Qunari), not to mention spitting on the memory of Elthina who only ever advocated peace.

 

If Sebastian wants to hunt Anders to the ends of Thedas, then by all means, I can understand and sympathise with his wanting to do so. But he should not take his anger out on the people of Kirkwall, they've already suffered enough devastation at the hands of men marching under the banner of "Justice".

[(Disgusted noise.)]

I'm just glad he finally revealed himself to be the POS I always knew he was. 

 

Literally the only companion I would ever murder knife.

[Ariella]

Cullen suggestion to help Aveline and the rebellion kick Sebastian out, actually is rather telling... after all, he lived in Kirkwall for nearly a decade and dealt with a lot of insane things as a Templar, especially in the aftermath of the Chantry explosion. Yet even he doesn't want to see the city razed to the ground and have the people suffer more because of Sebastian's vendetta and misplaced retribution.

 

It's not that Sebastian is a bad man (because he's not), but becoming a militant zealot who justifies his violent actions as being for the greater good, he's no better than Anders (or even the Qunari), not to mention spitting on the memory of Elthina who only ever advocated peace.

 

If Sebastian wants to hunt Anders to the ends of Thedas, then by all means, I can understand and sympathise with his wanting to do so. But he should not take his anger out on the people of Kirkwall, they've already suffered enough devastation at the hands of men marching under the banner of "Justice".

 

Sebastian is the personification of the "Beware you who fight monsters..." quote when he does this. Becoming exactly what he hates, but can't see it.

 

And while I used to like Anders, I grew up and realized that end does not justify the means.

[Jaison1986]

If the landsmeet taught me one thing, is that you don't give in to temper tantrums thrown by entitled little boys. If I ever see him again in Dragon age, the Vael line will die forever. Not that I cared about Anders alright. If someone kills him out there, I won't shed a single tear. But Sebastian won't get away from attacking an city that held no responsability for Anders crimes.

[teh DRUMPf!!]

Okay, I have to ask... what in the name of sanity are you talking about?

 

I don't believe that I ever made any such claim that Aveline's tenure as guard captain magically lowered the crime rate in the city? In fact, if you'd bothered to read my initial rebuttal, I actually agreed with you that the crime rate had increased across the game's three acts.

 

What I disagreed with you with however, was that you supposed it was down to Aveline's ineffectual leadership being responsible.

 

My point and argument against this, was that the deteriorating situation within Kirkwall, such as the political unease between the Chantry, the Qunari, the Templars and the Rebel Mages, meant that the guard was increasingly forced to deal with a bunch of civil unrest and chaotic situations, in addition to their regular duties and trying to prevent the rampant crime already within the city. With the guard stretched thin, it was no wonder that the city's criminal elements would exploit this to gain more of a presence in the city.

 

Next time, kindly read the case presented before rushing to the cross-examining. I don't mind defending my position, but I'd like to be on the same page when doing it and not defend one that I didn't actually make in the first place.

 

 

Okay, ... then I am not sure what point you were making in your reply? I already said that if her position as Guard-Captain did not have enough clout to make any meaningful difference, then that is just more reason to bring in new leadership above her that can.

 

Talk about reading/not reading.

[Deztyn]

Cullen suggestion to help Aveline and the rebellion kick Sebastian out, actually is rather telling... after all, he lived in Kirkwall for nearly a decade and dealt with a lot of insane things as a Templar, especially in the aftermath of the Chantry explosion. Yet even he doesn't want to see the city razed to the ground and have the people suffer more because of Sebastian's vendetta and misplaced retribution.

It's not that Sebastian is a bad man (because he's not), but becoming a militant zealot who justifies his violent actions as being for the greater good, he's no better than Anders (or even the Qunari), not to mention spitting on the memory of Elthina who only ever advocated peace.

If Sebastian wants to hunt Anders to the ends of Thedas, then by all means, I can understand and sympathise with his wanting to do so. But he should not take his anger out on the people of Kirkwall, they've already suffered enough devastation at the hands of men marching under the banner of "Justice".

In all seriousness, Kirkwall is a disaster, and if they actually surrendered instead of fighting, and Aveline sincerely aided in the hunt for Anders, they would probably probably be better off being annexed by Starkhaven. The text of Sebastian's mission indicates that he does intend to help Kirkwall and they would benefit from the aid and stability Starkhaven could provide.

Just need to eliminate those pesky abomination lovers first. A small price to pay for the long term gains.

If the landsmeet taught me one thing, is that you don't give in to temper tantrums thrown by entitled little boys. If I ever see him again in Dragon age, the Vael line will die forever. Not that I cared about Anders alright. If someone kills him out there, I won't shed a single tear. But Sebastian won't get away from attacking an city that held no responsability for Anders crimes.

Uh. Sure. Because wanting to see mass murderers who have directly harmed you, the people you care for, and countless others brought to justice instead of rewarded makes you an entitled brat.

Let's be real here. What kind of temper tantrum would you throw if your loved ones were murdered by someone who also attempted to kill you without cause and was then allowed to walk away free and clear by the grace of one of the few living people you care about, someone you've stood by through everything even when you didn't always agree with their choices?

I bet it would be epic.

Alistair and Sebastian are more than justified in their anger. They were betrayed by the PC for the sake of people who legitimately and lethally wronged them.

[Bowie Hawkins]

Well, Kirkwall chantry was one of the biggest villains by inaction ever. Meredith has been openly off her mind for years and Elthina is all about compromising with her bs. And most people just watched, so not that I feel very sorry for them either. On the other side, Anders just wants to start a war, which is the best way to make everything worse for everybody. 

 

Meredith had killed one Viscount, controlled his successor through fear of her doing the same to him, and became absolute ruler of Kirkwall in all but title when he died, so Elthina had to know that the only thing that would happen if she tried to exert the power she supposedly had over the Knight-Commander she would at best end up deposed and at worst dead. And either way, nothing would be holding Meredith in check in the slightest anymore.

 

I neither can nor will blame Elthina for doing what little she could to prevent a Templar rebellion.

[Hanako Ikezawa]

Luckily I killed the warmongering terrorist abomination known as Anders, so Sebastian remained a nice guy in my game.

[Sifr]

Okay, ... then I am not sure what point you were making in your reply? I already said that if her position as Guard-Captain did not have enough clout to make any meaningful difference, then that is just more reason to bring in new leadership above her that can.

 

Talk about reading/not reading.

 

And I already countered why that is complete nonsense.

 

You do know that having a new leader above her wouldn't actually affect anything whatsoever, as the issue of crime in the city would thus rest now on their shoulders. Since Aveline has been apparently taking the right steps to combat crime, yet it's still a problem in the city, I don't see anything a new leader could do differently that would affect the crime rate or prevent it's increase.

 

We'd likely end up having the exact same discussion as we've having here... only you'd be ask to impliment someone higher to take over from them, under the logic that "who watches the watchers of the watchers?" is somehow the solution to this problem. If crime is high in a city, electing a new mayor or chief of police does not reset it to zero, or make it easier to tackle, it's more complicated than that.

 

The only way a change in leadership would have any kind of effect is if the new rulers of Kirkwall turned it into a fascist police state where the population were too scared to sneeze, lest they be taken away for "disturbing the peace".

 

If not, then it'd just be the same old problems, with new people at the top.

[TheKomandorShepard]

In all seriousness, Kirkwall is a disaster, and if they actually surrendered instead of fighting, and Aveline sincerely aided in the hunt for Anders, they would probably probably be better off being annexed by Starkhaven. The text of Sebastian's mission indicates that he does intend to help Kirkwall and they would benefit from the aid and stability Starkhaven could provide.

Just need to eliminate those pesky abomination lovers first. A small price to pay for the long term gains.

Uh. Sure. Because wanting to see mass murderers who have directly harmed you, the people you care for, and countless others brought to justice instead of rewarded makes you an entitled brat.

Let's be real here. What kind of temper tantrum would you throw if your loved ones were murdered by someone who also attempted to kill you without cause and was then allowed to walk away free and clear by the grace of one of the few living people you care about, someone you've stood by through everything even when you didn't always agree with their choices?

I bet it would be epic.

Alistair and Sebastian are more than justified in their anger. They were betrayed by the PC for the sake of people who legitimately and lethally wronged them.

Pretty much already explained why sebastian mission doesn't have anything to do with making kirkwall better place or hunting anders.

 

Alistair perhaps because again alistair takes his anger on loghain ,sebastian isn't he takes his anger on kirkwall that doesn't have anything to do with anders pretty much he is like sasuke uchiha.

[Deztyn]

There is no doubt that Sebastian is doing this out of revenge, but that does not preclude him from improving the overall situation in Kirkwall if he's successful in conquering it.

And even if you don't agree with what Sebastian chose to do after, Hawke still spares Anders knowing full well that it was just dumb luck that Sebastian wasn't in the Chantry when he destroyed it. And we have no good reason to believe that Anders didn't fully expect Sebastian to be there either. Sebastian's rage in that moment is completely justified.

[Aren]

Anders just wanted to be a martyr, killing him would have been too nice,​my evil female Hawke understand this so she spared him and made him kill the mages lol

[TheKomandorShepard]

There is no doubt that Sebastian is doing this out of revenge, but that does not preclude him from improving the overall situation in Kirkwall if he's successful in conquering it.

And even if you don't agree with what Sebastian chose to do after, Hawke still spares Anders knowing full well that it was just dumb luck that Sebastian wasn't in the Chantry when he destroyed it. And we have no good reason to believe that Anders didn't fully expect Sebastian to be there either. Sebastian's rage in that moment is completely justified.

And how manchild that decided invade kirkwall because some guy who wronged him used to live in same city suppose make that city better place lol if something it will make it worse because city will be under control of manchild that picks up on that very city in act of misplaced revenge. 

 

And? Avoiding that hawke had no obligation to kill anders sebastian was free to do so he didn't so he can blame only himself for not taking initiative.

[Boost32]

Who would have thought that TheKomandorShepard was in fact a mage supporter? First Solas and now even Anders!
Admit, you want mage freedom and Leliana as Divine!

[TheKomandorShepard]

Who would have thought that TheKomandorShepard was in fact a mage supporter? First Solas and now even Anders!
Admit, you want mage freedom and Leliana as Divine!

Woah don't go that far i didn't defend anders or what he did.

 

Im talking about sebastian rather than anders.

[Boost32]

Woah don't go that far i didn't defend anders or what he did.
 
Im talking about sebastian rather than anders.

You let him go because you believe in mage freedom!

[TheKomandorShepard]

You let him go because you believe in mage freedom!

Well i killed him as well in my games ,but i even have hawke that is pro-mage (as well warden and inq).However, personally i don't have good opinion about dragon age mages to put it lightly.

[Nerevar-as]

Removes the chance of Anders doing something stupid in the future if he is dissatisfied with how the mage rebellion ends.

This one. The guy kickstarted a war without having a proper plan to fight it, just have mages in a position of fighting or getting killed. If he found the peace terms weren't good enough for him he'd do his worst to keep the war going. Freedom is a worthy cause, but he's not fighting for it, it's just his excuse for venting out his anger. Hell, he blew up the chantry, not the templars after all. Getting rid of Meredith instead of Elthina would have done wonders for KW, especially if it looked accidental.

[Nerevar-as]

There is no doubt that Sebastian is doing this out of revenge, but that does not preclude him from improving the overall situation in Kirkwall if he's successful in conquering it.

And even if you don't agree with what Sebastian chose to do after, Hawke still spares Anders knowing full well that it was just dumb luck that Sebastian wasn't in the Chantry when he destroyed it. And we have no good reason to believe that Anders didn't fully expect Sebastian to be there either. Sebastian's rage in that moment is completely justified.

And in standard DAII writing quality, he storms off instead of killing him then and there.

[Jaison1986]

Uh. Sure. Because wanting to see mass murderers who have directly harmed you, the people you care for, and countless others brought to justice instead of rewarded makes you an entitled brat.

Let's be real here. What kind of temper tantrum would you throw if your loved ones were murdered by someone who also attempted to kill you without cause and was then allowed to walk away free and clear by the grace of one of the few living people you care about, someone you've stood by through everything even when you didn't always agree with their choices?

I bet it would be epic.

Alistair and Sebastian are more than justified in their anger. They were betrayed by the PC for the sake of people who legitimately and lethally wronged them.

 

They have no justification. They are selfish brats that allow their snowflake little feeling to cloud their judgment. Alistair betrays the very ideal of the wardens to compromise for the greater good. He has no high ground at the landsmeet. And Sebastian goes on a rampage on Kirkwall even though Anders isn't there. At least when Anders blows the Chantry he attacks his opposition directly. Sebastian just goes killing willy nilly without a care. He is far worse then Anders.

[Boost32]

Because Anders only killed the people in the Chantry, no one eles died.... Oh wait.