312 réponses à ce sujet

[Andromelek]

Because Anders only killed the people in the Chantry, no one eles died.... Oh wait.

The people crushed by the debris that fell all around the city died, too bad that even if you never helped him to get the materials for his bomb, somehow he managed to get them.

[Boost32]

The people crushed by the debris that fell all around the city died, too bad that even if you never helped him to get the materials for his bomb, somehow he managed to get them.

That was the point.

[Deztyn]

They have no justification. They are selfish brats that allow their snowflake little feeling to cloud their judgment. Alistair betrays the very ideal of the wardens to compromise for the greater good. He has no high ground at the landsmeet. And Sebastian goes on a rampage on Kirkwall even though Anders isn't there. At least when Anders blows the Chantry he attacks his opposition directly. Sebastian just goes killing willy nilly without a care. He is far worse then Anders.

Hmmmm...

Snowflake feelings:

"Hey person I've supported through hell and back, even when you are a murderous evil bastard I despise, can we not let the extremely untrustworthy man who killed all of my comrades and betrayed my half brother, hired an incompetent blood mage to poison my Uncle and tutor his son thus destroying his family and my hometown, started a civil war that claimed who knows how many lives, sold countless elves into slavery and tried to kill us multiple times while also slandering us and attempting to ruin any chance we had of ending the Blight early, get away with it and be rewarded by being given something I consider a great honor rather than a punishment? Cuz seriously, if you do I am not going to be able to fight by his side. That is literally the only line I draw. "

What an unreasonable brat.

And no, despite popular opinion, Anders didn't blow up the Chantry because he blames them for what is happening in the Gallows. He blows up the Chantry because he wants to force a 'victory or death' conflict whether the mages want it or not and remove any chance for a peaceful solution.

He says this himself. "I removed the chance for compromise, because there is no compromise. " So I have never understood the view that he's justified because the Chantry is bad. He wants to back the mages into a corner. Fight or die. That's his grand plan.

Elthina isn't his opposition. She is the thing standing in between the mages and Meredith. Never mind the countless other innocent lives claimed whose only crime was living in Kirkwall.

And as I said earlier, If Kirkwall surrendered peacefully and aided Sebastian's manhunt, instead of fighting back and shielding the people who helped Anders, Kirkwall would reap the long-term benefits of being part of his empire.

[Andromelek]

By the way, who "supported" Anders? Because the Templars caught his friend and made him a tranquil, the Wardens do not count and excluding him and Hawke, the rest of the mages out of the circle, were either Blood Mages or Qunari Saarebas, and after that he left with a bunch of rebel mages, so if those were his associates, there is no point on attacking Kirkwall.

[TK514]

Just one more way killing Anders makes the world a better place.

[SgtSteel91]

Too bad Sebastian/Alistair can't accept the idea of sparing Anders/Loghain on the basis of giving them a second chance to make up for their mistakes and redeem themselves.

[ComedicSociopathy]

Too bad Sebastian/Alistair can't accept the idea of sparing Anders/Loghain on the basis of giving them a second chance to make up for their mistakes and redeem themselves.

 

Why should Anders or Loghain get a chance to redeem themselves? The amount of damage those two committed in their knuckle-headed attempts to save their respective people only ended up screwing the very people they claim to care for. 

 

The only way those two can redeem themselves is by having their heads donated to an orphanage so they can service as soccer balls for children.  

[Andromelek]

Too bad Sebastian/Alistair can't accept the idea of sparing Anders/Loghain on the basis of giving them a second chance to make up for their mistakes and redeem themselves.

Yeah, too bad that there is no way to kill Sebastian and none of the ways to kill Alistair is good enough, they are irresponsible morons who only want to blame someone else for what's going wrong, I believe there is enough proof of those idiots can be even worse than the dudes they want to kill.

Edit: Both are also among the biggest hypocrites in the franchise.

[Sealaria]

 

I don't play fair with Sebastian.........

hosting immagini

 

 

hahahaha thanks for the laugh!

[Master Warder Z_]

Just one more way killing Anders makes the world a better place.

Sometimes people just need to die...

[Jaison1986]

Hmmmm...

Snowflake feelings:

"Hey person I've supported through hell and back, even when you are a murderous evil bastard I despise, can we not let the extremely untrustworthy man who killed all of my comrades and betrayed my half brother, hired an incompetent blood mage to poison my Uncle and tutor his son thus destroying his family and my hometown, started a civil war that claimed who knows how many lives, sold countless elves into slavery and tried to kill us multiple times while also slandering us and attempting to ruin any chance we had of ending the Blight early, get away with it and be rewarded by being given something I consider a great honor rather than a punishment? Cuz seriously, if you do I am not going to be able to fight by his side. That is literally the only line I draw. "

What an unreasonable brat.

And no, despite popular opinion, Anders didn't blow up the Chantry because he blames them for what is happening in the Gallows. He blows up the Chantry because he wants to force a 'victory or death' conflict whether the mages want it or not and remove any chance for a peaceful solution.

He says this himself. "I removed the chance for compromise, because there is no compromise. " So I have never understood the view that he's justified because the Chantry is bad. He wants to back the mages into a corner. Fight or die. That's his grand plan.

Elthina isn't his opposition. She is the thing standing in between the mages and Meredith. Never mind the countless other innocent lives claimed whose only crime was living in Kirkwall.

And as I said earlier, If Kirkwall surrendered peacefully and aided Sebastian's manhunt, instead of fighting back and shielding the people who helped Anders, Kirkwall would reap the long-term benefits of being part of his empire.

 

How very american of you.

 

Not only you make sure to oversimplify the events surrounding Loghain, just like any person ever on this website, you forget an senior warden, your superior, is the one that suggests his recruitment. Alistair was more concerned about mindless revenge then duty. An real soldier knows that the mission comes before their feelings. If they can't do that maybe they shouldn't have joined the army in the first place. I own absolutely nothing to Alistair. He helped? Oh, great, good for him! *Clap, clap*. So does any companion ever. And they show much more loyalty then Alistair in that regard.

 

And Sebastian comes to Kirkwall with an army without any permission. Try doing that to any country and see how it ends. You have some pretty naive views of how politics and borders work.

[Ninna]

I was disappointed in Sebastian long before his tantrum. I went into the game thinking maybe I'd romance him, but nope, just nope.

 

I'm happy to crush him. Probably one of my favorite things Cullen does, a good way to put the boys to work (I usually avoid sending Cullen... unless it's to gather metal...).

[Deztyn]

By the way, who "supported" Anders? Because the Templars caught his friend and made him a tranquil, the Wardens do not count and excluding him and Hawke, the rest of the mages out of the circle, were either Blood Mages or Qunari Saarebas, and after that he left with a bunch of rebel mages, so if those were his associates, there is no point on attacking Kirkwall.

Aveline and Merrill for starters.

They are his known associates and in most worldstates where all three are still alive are guilty of continuing to associate with both Anders and Hawke after his crimes were committed.

Too bad Sebastian/Alistair can't accept the idea of sparing Anders/Loghain on the basis of giving them a second chance to make up for their mistakes and redeem themselves.

Why do they deserve redemption?

Anders is unrepentant on the friendship path, and incapable of controlling himself on the rivalry path. He has just finished proving, beyond any doubt, that he does not care how many innocents suffer as long as it suits his cause. He has just betrayed the trust of his closest friend, and narrowly missed killing one of his own companions.

Loghain, despite the good he's done in the past, does nothing to show that he's truly repentant until you have already chosen to spare him. So far as the Warden knows as soon as his back is turned, he'll plant a knife in it.

And why don't their victims deserve justice?

Hundreds, if not thousands of elves have been sold into slavery to fund Loghain's war effort. People who will be ripped apart from their families, legally used as sex objects, sacrificed to fuel their masters blood magic rituals or thrown against the Qunari. For no better reason than the civil war Loghain started was costing too much.

Do you expect a Tabris Warden to spare Loghain? After everything their family has suffered? If not, then why doesn't Alistair deserve the same courtesy? The people he loved suffered and died for Loghain's machinations as well. Not just the Wardens, but also the Guerrins and the people of Redcliffe.

Yeah, too bad that there is no way to kill Sebastian and none of the ways to kill Alistair is good enough, they are irresponsible morons who only want to blame someone else for what's going wrong, I believe there is enough proof of those idiots can be even worse than the dudes they want to kill.
Edit: Both are also among the biggest hypocrites in the franchise.

Interesting.

So a duplicitous, treasonous, murderous, slaver responsible for the ruin of countless lives deserves redemption. But execution is too good for someone who simply leaves Ferelden, along with a few thousand other refugees, because he refuses to fight side by side with that man.

I feel your sense of justice may be a little flawed.

[Deztyn]

How very american of you.

Not only you make sure to oversimplify the events surrounding Loghain, just like any person ever on this website,

I'm oversimplifying nothing. Loghain may have had his motives, but that does not absolve him of his actions, and Alistair is under no obligation to care about the causes of Loghain's paranoia.

you forget an senior warden, your superior, is the one that suggests his recruitment.

Not at all. But Riordan leaves you to make the choice. It's a suggestion, not an order, and he withholds information crucial for making an informed decision.

Would Alistair have left if he realized he wasn't just one soldier among many in your army, but was actually one of only 3 people available to end the Blight? I suspect not.

Alistair was more concerned about mindless revenge then duty. An real soldier knows that the mission comes before their feelings. If they can't do that maybe they shouldn't have joined the army in the first place.

I suspect even in the army they wouldn't expect you to literally fight at the side of a person who has killed or attempted to kill everyone you love, and you as well and may still have a strong motive for wanting to see you dead. For morale, if nothing else.

I own absolutely nothing to Alistair. He helped? Oh, great, good for him! *Clap, clap*. So does any companion ever. And they show much more loyalty then Alistair in that regard.

Actually, no. Alistair is the only companion in Origins who will stay with you even at -100 approval. Provided you don't spare Loghain. Everyone else will leave you or betray you.

Well except dog. You could kick him and he'd still stay loyal. But that would just be mean.

And Sebastian comes to Kirkwall with an army without any permission. Try doing that to any country and see how it ends. You have some pretty naive views of how politics and borders work.

Not quite.

I just believe that Kirkwall is in such a crisis that it is incapable of recovering on its own, and that in the end they'd be better off absorbed into Starkhaven. I never said that meekly accepting their fate was likely, only a theoretically better outcome.

[Andromelek]

Merrill counts as a blood mage in the first stance, Aveline maybe allowed him to leave but she did not helped him, and why attack Kirkall? sending assassins should work better than a war.

Interesting.
So a duplicitous, treasonous, murderous, slaver responsible for the ruin of countless lives deserves redemption. But execution is too good for someone who simply leaves Ferelden, along with a few thousand other refugees, because he refuses to fight side by side with that man.
I feel your sense of justice may be a little flawed.

"Slaver?" Who the hell are you talking about?

And about my "flawed" sense of justice, two things:

First; some deuches like Erimond see death as "Haha, I could come back" and second, we've seen that indeed some of them can, bioware seems to like revive the dudes I tried to kill and kill those I didn't wanted, so, no, in Dragon Age I don't see death as a reliable tool of justice, I think is better hit them where it hurts, in Erimond's case, tranquility, Loghain was just perfect: he ended in the order he hated, serving on the country he hated, and ultimately he felt how does it feel being betrayed, and you can finish him with a Nightmare demon, if you run out of ideas for every case, well, left them as a potato like Maria Santiago, that should be enough and prevents them from coming back.

[Deztyn]

Merrill counts as a blood mage in the first stance, Aveline maybe allowed him to leave but she did not helped him,

Sebastian is looking for Anders.

Hawke may know where Anders is.

Merrill and Aveline are friends of Hawke and companions of Anders.

Thus, Aveline and Merrill are two of the known people in Kirkwall who may have information leading to Anders.

It's really not that complicated.

And when Aveline allows Anders to leave she is helping him. She's captain of the damned guard. It was her job to bring him to justice.

and why attack Kirkall? sending assassins should work better than a war.

Because that won't restore order. Which is also one of Sebastian's goals.

"Slaver?" Who the hell are you talking about?

Loghain.

He sold the Denerim Alienage to Tevinter slavers to fund his war machine because he bankrupted the royal coffers doing things like hiring Crow assassins to kill you and Alistair.

Of course he pretties it up by saying it's for their own good and they're better off slaves.

And about my "flawed" sense of justice, two things:
First; some deuches like Erimond see death as "Haha, I could come back" and second, we've seen that indeed some of them can, bioware seems to like revive the dudes I tried to kill and kill those I didn't wanted, so, no, in Dragon Age I don't see death as a reliable tool of justice, I think is better hit them where it hurts, in Erimond's case, tranquility, Loghain was just perfect: he ended in the order he hated, serving on the country he hated, and ultimately he felt how does it feel being betrayed, and you can finish him with a Nightmare demon, if you run out of ideas for every case, well, left them as a potato like Maria Santiago, that should be enough and prevents them from coming back.

Yes, but what does that have to do with Alistair?

You did say that none of the ways you can kill him were good enough punishments. And in response to a comment that suggested Loghain deserved a second chance. I fail to see how someone can think execution, exile or even worse marrying Anora shouldn't suffice as punishments for Alistair, while redemption is an appropriate fate for Loghain.

Knowing that you as a player can metagame a terrible life for Loghain has no bearing on what Alistair, as a character should consider.

"Alistair buddy, just wait, watching him suffer the next ten years is gonna be sooo much better than just chopping off his head now. And this way I get to save you, Hawke and Stroud's epic mustache!" is not an available dialogue choice at Landsmeet.

[TheKomandorShepard]

Sebastian is looking for Anders.

Hawke may know where Anders is.

Merrill and Aveline are friends of Hawke and companions of Anders.

Thus, Aveline and Merrill are two of the known people in Kirkwall who may have information leading to Anders.

It's really not that complicated.

And when Aveline allows Anders to leave she is helping him. She's captain of the damned guard. It was her job to bring him to justice.

Because that won't restore order. Which is also one of Sebastian's goals.
 

 

In first place i have already explained that that isn't reason by the simple fact if hawke kicks out Anders he cuts off his ties with him same for other companions (and even if do take him pretty much same ensues afterwards) , not to mention aveline could have leave hawke as i have said.They are only associates if she and anders stay in the party.  

 

And no allowing someone to leave isn't helping someone ,not to mention that dealing with mages is templars job. If that somehow makes her guilty ,sebastian is as guilty as she is. 

 

Also it isn't his goal explained that as well it is simple misplaced revenge. 

[Andromelek]

Loghain.
He sold the Denerim Alienage to Tevinter slavers to fund his war machine because he bankrupted the royal coffers doing things like hiring Crow assassins to kill you and Alistair.
Of course he pretties it up by saying it's for their own good and they're better off slaves.

Yes, but what does that have to do with Alistair?
You did say that none of the ways you can kill him were good enough punishments. And in response to a comment that suggested Loghain deserved a second chance. I fail to see how someone can think execution, exile or even worse marrying Anora shouldn't suffice as punishments for Alistair, while redemption is an appropriate fate for Loghain.
Knowing that you as a player can metagame a terrible life for Loghain has no bearing on what Alistair, as a character should consider.
"Alistair buddy, just wait, watching him suffer the next ten years is gonna be sooo much better than just chopping off his head now. And this way I get to save you, Hawke and Stroud's epic mustache!" is not an available dialogue choice at Landsmeet.

Oh, right, I forgot about Caladrius, I should play Origins again.

But I do not retract for what I said, I said (as a player, the characters have no idea that there is another ways to do so) that none of the ways to kill him is good enough, and indeed no one is, perhaps in Origins he did nothing too bad (suggesting me to do horrible things and then blaming me like it was my idea still being something I disapprove) and I said it for the things he would do if the HOF wouldn't survived and the things he would do after Origins:

He just took every amoral decision on the Darkspawn Chronicles, even worse than those the player can take because he teamed up with Rendon Howe (who is clearly worse than Loghain), he turned to be a cold blooded murderer in the comics and he kicked out the mage rebellion for something that the Venatori did. Given that the events of the comics seems to happen with every possible Alistair, unless he's dead, so, every Alistair would likely take the same dark path even on an alternative DC where he could win.

And I never saw marrying Anora as a punishment, it's the only way which he plays to be King without actually caring a crap about Ferelden, because that's Anora's job, it seems more like a reward.

And I bet that if Elthina wouldn't be within the Chantry when it blowed up, Sebastian wouldn't begin a war to "chase" Anders, both, Alistair and Sebastian just pretend to be good guys until someone messes with someone they love, then they can act like douchebags and they don't see anything wrong on what they're doing.

[MisterJB]

My main Warden is a Cousland who spares Loghain. In my view, Alistair is missing what it truly means to be a Grey Warden, especially since we're dealing with a Blight.
But I can't help but wonder what would be my choice had Riordan suggested we make Howe a Warden.

[MisterJB]

Anora is an intelligent, imposing, dedicated, beautiful woman with huge tracts of land and Alistair should feel honored to marry her.

[Sifr]

Anora is an intelligent, imposing, dedicated, beautiful woman with huge tracts of land and Alistair should feel honored to marry her.

 

Plus, what better way to get revenge on your enemy than by plowing his daughter?

 

[TK514]

Plus, what better way to get revenge on your enemy than by plowing his daughter?

 

I think you overestimate Loghain's feelings for Alistair.  Had the original timeline stood, I might be able to see some antipathy due to Alistair being proof that Maric was sleeping around on Loghain's true love. However, now that the developers have screwed that up just so they could make Fiona an even more special snowflake, I don't imagine Loghain feels much about Alistair at all, one way or the other.  The Wardens were a convenient scapegoat, and Alistair just happened to be one.

[Kukuru]

Just a reminder, Sebastian only attacks Kirkwall if Anders is spared. It doesn't matter if you kick Aveline out of your party before the Chantry blew up or if no one else besides her stays there after the events of DA2. It gets attacked either way.

 

However if you kill Anders, Sebastian doesn't do it. That means that his actions aren't to make order in there or to do some good, people will continue doing the evil they were doing, alive or not.

It's a misplaced revenge just as Komandor said.

 

 

I don't know why is Loghain in this thread, anyway i spared him to give Alistair some maturity and in his case the life you are giving is way worse than death. I don't support Loghain at all, however in that moment death is too merciful for him. After 10 years of suffering it's an easy choice for Nightmare's meal. 

[SgtSteel91]

I think you overestimate Loghain's feelings for Alistair.  Had the original timeline stood, I might be able to see some antipathy due to Alistair being proof that Maric was sleeping around on Loghain's true love. However, now that the developers have screwed that up just so they could make Fiona an even more special snowflake, I don't imagine Loghain feels much about Alistair at all, one way or the other.  The Wardens were a convenient scapegoat, and Alistair just happened to be one.

 

You don't think Loghain wouldn't have any feelings about Alistair being the love child of Maric and an Orlesian? 

[Master Warder Z_]

You don't think Loghain wouldn't have any feelings about Alistair being the love child of Maric and an Orlesian?

Maker that family just needs to die out!