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[Vit246]

Well, yeah.

[BigEvil]

The thing about Vivienne is, she's a politician. I can't make up my mind whether she actually believes the views she expresses or just says what she's calculated will give her the power and position she craves. People probably should take her seriously though, in the sense that if she's made Divine, she'll turn on the Inquisition without batting an eyelid if it's in her best interests and she thinks she can win.

[BabyPuncher]

....Yes

 

...And?

 

I can't take Vivianne seriously either, but that's because pretty much none of the qualities the writers tried to claim she possesses actually show up at all in the story.

[Toasted Llama]

She speaks about the troubles of mages as though THEY are the problem

 

And that is actually true to some degree; it may not necessarily be the mages themselves as people that are the problem, but rather the gift (or curse) they've been given that provides them immense power and makes them immensely vulnerable to corruption from the Fade. The common folk can't, or hardly can, defend themselves against rogue/angry mages, one of them can easily burn down an entire village. And as everyone all too well knows; there's always going to be assholes/demons who want to burn down a village. Or worse.

 

That is "the" problem, as unfortunate as it might be for the mages as people.

[berelinde]

AedanStarfang, your estimation of Vivienne's character is pretty much spot on... and that's why I like her (and why most of my characters don't). She enjoys privileges most Circle mages only dream of, but she speaks as if her experience was the norm and not the exception because it's politically expedient for her to play it that way. Bring Cole and her in the same party and you'll soon learn that she endured just as much fear and hardship as we've come to expect from Circle life, but she engineered her own rescue by working the system, not by changing it. She latches onto powerful people: Duke Bastien, Empress Celene, the Inquisitor. She's resourceful, but she's also incredibly shrewd, and knows how to pick a winning horse. She's truly a fascinating character, and what's more, she's expertly written. There were very few times during the game when I pushed the chair back and said, "Wow, that's ham-fisted. There's no way my Inquisitor would fail to spot that obvious manipulation." There were times even I didn't catch it until it was already over and all I was left to say was "You clever girl!" The only time she's ever genuinely wrong-footed is when The Game changes. She gets snippy if Leliana is made Divine not only because Leliana supports mage freedom, but because she can't manipulate Leliana. Vivienne has no place in the world Leliana wants to build.

 

After you complete her personal quest, if you ask her how she and Bastien met, she says "Wealth and status made up for any defects he possessed. Those were more innocent times." (?!)

 

In some ways, I pity her. She's trapped in her own fairy tale. If she flinches even a little, she'll fall, and it's a long, long way down. I imagine it would go rather like the final scene of Dangerous Liaisons.

[Jaison1986]

She has a point regarding the mages. Mages do cause their own troubles by giving in to blood magic (Kirkwall... enough said) and they aren't painting themselves in a better light. Look what Fiona did in Redcliffe. Look at what Anders caused. Orisino was just plain mad, and Hawke's mother died because of a crazy blood mage who wanted to bring back his dead wife. Uldred destroyed the circle. No one made them that way, they caused their own issues by making poor choices. Yes some of them they did it because of how the Chantry portrays them, but it's no excuse. Why make the Chantry right about them? Why not actually work hard and prove they are capable? Sadly as Sera said, you only hear the bad stuff but if they do anything good, it's not even heard. It's like Hollywood media. If mages stopped doing stupid things, no one would even care anymore.

 

Viv takes some getting used to, but an open-minded person who tries to see her side can be surprised with her true personality hidden beneath the mask she wears. She gave my Inquisitor a lovely gift before the final fight as a thank you for being a true friend. She grew up rich and knows only how to flaunt it to get what she wants, so she thinks gifts can be the answer, but she truly did want to express her gratitude to my Inquisitor and could only do it through means of materialistic gifts. She also loved her husband beyond anything (which is why no one can romance her).

 

She can never show weakness but she allowed a bit of it with the Inquisitor because they won't judge her, but with everyone else she will always be seen as what people dislike her for, and sadly that's how politics work. Dog eat dog world and all that as they say.

 

No one needs to prove anything to an bunch of religious zealots. This would be an fair argument if we could take the Chantry completely out of the equation. How can mages prove themselves to the common people when the Chantry aways gets in way and keep them down?

 

Vivienne has no autruism, She only cares about herself. After all, how would she keep her confortable lifestyle if the mages rebelled and dismantled the system she relies on to keep her status?

[berelinde]

By the way, Duke Bastien was never Vivienne's husband. She was his mistress, an extramarital affair. She and his wife got along well and she is on intimate terms with his family so there seems to be no rancor on either side, but it is worth pointing out that Vivienne had no scruples about bedding a married man. I'm not condemning Vivienne over this. It seems to be a kind of cultural norm for Orlais, and none of those involved object to the relationship, so no harm done, but it was never a marriage. But the fact that the relationship was illicit does not make it less loving. I believe that Vivienne did care for Bastien. At first, it may have been political expedience, but she does seem broken up over his death.

[andy6915]

Not completely true, though she is naturally selfish and thinks of her self most of the time, but she's got a good heart, yet she goes about it in a way that doesn't show her in the positive light she was meant to be shown in, especially to others that are lower class. She does care for others, but she was raised a certain way and like I said, that's why she only shows a bit of her true self to the Inquisitor during conversations if they become close. And seriously some of those mages need to grow up. My Warden Mage and Hawke Mage had more dignity than half the mages in any DA game. If they can do it so can others. Especially Wynne, who proved having a spirit in you does not always result in an abomination. If you become what the Chantry deems you, it's because you let it happen.

 

There is evidence of this. During "In your Heart Shall Burn" she will suggest basically ignoring the townspeople and head straight for the Chantry. So you think she's just a cold hearted b*tch, just ignoring others for the sake of our own safety. But when you save everyone anyway... "Vivienne approves" flashes on the screen. So she acted like she didn't care, but in reality she really is glad that you took the time and effort to save everyone you could.

[9TailsFox]

....Yes

 

...And?

 

I can't take Vivianne seriously either, but that's because pretty much none of the qualities the writers tried to claim she possesses actually show up at all in the story.

She is ****** and she knows it, at least I hope she doe's -Sera.

[Darkstarr11]

After playing through each game, I really got the sense that Viv has no idea how a Circle REALLY operates.  She lived a really privileged life.  She's a schemer, when it comes down to it.  Noticed how if you play a mage, she seems to try to settle into the mentor role rather fast?  Yeah.  After witnessing the Circle through the eyes of the Warden, and seeing Jowan, Wynne, Anders, Bethany and Orsino, I (as a player) can see she's either clueless, or willfully ignorant of the abuses that happen.  Jowan turned to blood magic.  Orsino was working WITH a serial killer who practiced necromancy and blood magic.  Anders...wow...Anders had been abused (probably worse) who ended up joining with a spirit who became corrupted and well, we all know what happened next.  Wynne tells of some bad templars and Bethany got off pretty light, but still saw some REALLY shocking things at Kirkwall if she joined the Circle there.  You name it, it happened.  

 

Vivienne was looking out for herself.  If she helped mages along the way, great for her.  Make no mistake though, she was in it for her.  She'd happily throw her fellow mages under the wagon if she needed to save her own skin.  

 

I'm not saying she isn't well written...I just feel that I figured I'd end up FIGHTING her at some point when she hijacked the plot and became the big bad.

 

Heck, I wouldn't be shocked if that happened in Dragon Age 4!

[Cz-99]

Just another reason why Orlais needs to be sunk into the ground.

[themageguy]

I actually like Vivienne, even as a Divine.

Also i find it amusing that a mage is the best option to keep the circle system, and still manages to grant mages more privileges and freedoms whilst enforcing the system with her Templars.

Im also interested in the variations of the circles and their management methods. Ostwick by far seems the most better option and effective style - they had kept a more neutral position within the mage/templar conflict until a certain point.

[teh DRUMPf!!]

After playing through each game, I really got the sense that Viv has no idea how a Circle REALLY operates. She lived a really privileged life.

 

Vivienne was no more privileged coming into the Circle as any other mage (she was actually of common birth) so there is no reason to believe she succeeded in a position where any other mage just as capable would not.

 

There is a certain confirmation-bias at work when Vivienne's perspective is arbitrarily written off as 'unrealistic,' in favor of only mages who had bad experiences in the Circle. You have already made up your mind, so Vivienne is just an inconvenient truth.

[Darkstarr11]

Vivienne was no more privileged coming into the Circle as any other mage (she was actually of common birth) so there is no reason to believe she succeeded in a position where any other mage just as capable would not.

 

There is a certain confirmation-bias at work when Vivienne's perspective is arbitrarily written off as 'unrealistic,' in favor of only mages who had bad experiences in the Circle. You have already made up your mind, so Vivienne is just an inconvenient truth.

 

True, she came from common birth, bur remember she stated that it was common for mages to be away from the Circle, all they had to do was ask permission from the First Enchanter.  Yet any time we see a mage AWAY from a Circle, Templars seem to scream 'apostate' or 'blood mage' and get all swordy.  Heck, in Awakening, I had a templar go after the freaking Queen of Ferelden because she had a hate on for a mage.  Vivienne shows NO sympathy for her fellow mages.  Instead, she's quick to assign blame.  She writes off the whole Kirkwall incident as Anders, and nothing else.  She seems to forget that the templars were JUST as much at fault.  After all, mages can't beat, rape and murder themselves.  

 

I kinda have made up my mind though, when I think about it.  I do see the abuses of the mages, but when you continually kick someone when they are down, they are going to fight back.  It's always bloody, and its almost always dirty, but they fight back.  Viv, from her perspective, seems to think a strongly worded reply should be enough.  When you've got broken fingers, and a bloody mouth thats missing teeth, that proves to be a tad more difficult.  Even Cassandra and Cullen admit that the mages, while NOT innocent, were getting a REALLY raw deal.  Look in the codex.  You'll see under the Champion where another Knight Commander mentions the abuses at Kirkwall and how (depending on if you sided with the mages or not) Hawke felt that they had to step in.  Ferelden was lucky, because the Knight Commander and the First Enchanter were old friends, but it wasn't perfect.  Anders can attest to that.  The White Spire?  Yeah.  Look at Cole's backstory.  Calista and Martel handed over Avexis to Frenic...a Templar AND a Mother handing over a young elf mage to a blood mage?  

 

My issue with Viv is that she dismisses what doesn't fit with HER narrative.  Blame the mages, NOT the templars.  Ignore that most of the mages felt backed into a corner.  That even those who DIDN'T vote to join the rebellion got lumped in with the rest.  Templars slaughtering ALL mages, young and old.  If she becomes Divine, I don't see her as a reformer...she's going to cement power.  Mages get a better deal?  Maybe today, but the Templars will chafe under her yoke.  In time, they'll wonder why Orlais became Tevinter.  They'll wonder how a mage became Divine, and think...is this what Andraste would have wanted?  Is this what she fought for?

 

And we'll be right back where we started.  

[Darkstarr11]

@Darkstarr11 that's what I liked about Wynne, she may have been preachy and very definitely pro-circle but at least she would assign blame where it was warranted which was usually an even 50/50 of the time. She never harped on about how the circles were needed JUST to protect others from mages, but also noted how it kept mages protected from the ignorant general populace and how they were necessary to educate young mages. Vivienne wants them reinstated and functional again because her title as "First Enchanter" and eventual "Grand Enchanter" are useless without a bureaucratic mage-prison system hierarchy and a mob-mentality public to pander to.

 

True enough.  Even Fiona, as flawed as she was, wanted what was best for the mages.  Did she make the wrong choice?  OF COURSE she did...but she was TRYING (badly) to look out for the others.  Not Vivienne.  Wynne was up front.  She came right out about the mages who were bad, didn't hide it.  She even admitted her OWN failings...and Wynne (in my...almost EVERY save) ends up sacrificing herself for Evangeline.  Gave up her life for another.  Would Viv do that?

 

 

 

 

 

...(crickets chirping)...

 

 

 

 

 

 

...yep, didn't think so.

[Korva]

I don't even care that much about the mage issue -- though yes, the Circles need to change and the abuses which should never have happened to begin with answered for. But above that, I never found Vivienne useful in any way. Remember "show, don't tell"? The writers didn't. She never does anything for the Inquisition, never gets a chance to show how much clout a supposed political mastermind can bring to our cause. Not even at Halamshiral, biggest of all missed opportunities. Unfortunately, that makes it very easy to totally write her off, especially since many players will already be inclined to disagree with her. It would have been so much more interesting for her to actually be allowed to show competence and usefulness. And on top of that, she has "plot armor" when hijacking the Divine election and rearranging Skyhold in a fit of pique. So when she does act, it's purely for herself and we can't do a damn thing about it. Which is ... business as usual when it comes to this sort of character, unfortunately. Bhelen in the dwarven noble origin was a similar example of a supposedly smart/manipulative character who succeeds primarily because everyone around him is struck with a sudden case of Powerless Stupidity.

 

Sure, Vivienne has some decent advice at times, but it's all pretty generic and not indicative of any particular depth of insight. And while her ideas on power and status may have worked for her, they made no sense to me for my Inquisitor. Holding herself above and apart, flaunting wealth and station? It might be called for occasionally when "playing the Game", but not with her own people. It flies in the face of what I imagine to be the reasons for why the people of the Inquisition (soldiers, workers, mages, templars) are so loyal to their Inquisitor.

 

Vivienne is just one huge missed opportunitiy, which is a shame because I wanted to like her.

[Dai Grepher]

Vivienne is right about the Circles, magic, and mages. My male human mage agreed with her about everything, pretty much. The only point where they disagreed was in continuing to feed lyrium to templars. My mage told her we weren't going to support addiction. She raised concern that cutting them off would put them through agony and make their skills useless. I think that was it as far as conversations go. Obviously she didn't agree with keeping the Wardens around, or letting Morrigan drink from the Well, but not much you can do about this.

 

Vivienne saw bad templars and bad mages. She also saw good templars and good mages. She knew that judgments were reserved for individuals, not groups.

 

As Divine, she enacts gradual reforms that improve the lives of mages, and she keeps the templars strictly in line to prevent any abuses. She also crushes any and all mages who try to upset the established order. That lets the templars know that she's serious about keeping a peaceful balance.

 

To me, there's very little to dislike about Vivienne. Even if you think mages deserve more freedoms, it's difficult to refute any of Vivienne's arguments.

[berelinde]

I don't even care that much about the mage issue -- though yes, the Circles need to change and the abuses which should never have happened to begin with answered for. But above that, I never found Vivienne useful in any way. Remember "show, don't tell"? The writers didn't. She never does anything for the Inquisition, never gets a chance to show how much clout a supposed political mastermind can bring to our cause. Not even at Halamshiral, biggest of all missed opportunities. Unfortunately, that makes it very easy to totally write her off, especially since many players will already be inclined to disagree with her. It would have been so much more interesting for her to actually be allowed to show competence and usefulness. And on top of that, she has "plot armor" when hijacking the Divine election and rearranging Skyhold in a fit of pique. So when she does act, it's purely for herself and we can't do a damn thing about it. Which is ... business as usual when it comes to this sort of character, unfortunately. Bhelen in the dwarven noble origin was a similar example of a supposedly smart/manipulative character who succeeds primarily because everyone around him is struck with a sudden case of Powerless Stupidity.

 

Sure, Vivienne has some decent advice at times, but it's all pretty generic and not indicative of any particular depth of insight. And while her ideas on power and status may have worked for her, they made no sense to me for my Inquisitor. Holding herself above and apart, flaunting wealth and station? It might be called for occasionally when "playing the Game", but not with her own people. It flies in the face of what I imagine to be the reasons for why the people of the Inquisition (soldiers, workers, mages, templars) are so loyal to their Inquisitor.

 

Vivienne is just one huge missed opportunitiy, which is a shame because I wanted to like her.

You're right, Vivienne never demonstrates her political clout, and when she does use her powers to prove a point, it's to freeze a grudge-wielding noble with magic, all the while deriding the rebel mages for using their talents as a bludgeon. And while Vivienne does approve of saving Haven's villagers, she remarks later that the Inquisitor proved him/herself reasonably competent, saving as many lives as he/she did. She approves because the Inquisitor's actions reflect positively on the institution, not (necessarily) because she cares about the villagers.

 

I don't consider this a case of telling instead of showing. I think they showed us what they wanted us to see: Vivienne uses her abilities for self-advancement. Ambition, like it says on the tin.

 

I like Vivienne, largely because there are wheels turning under that well-groomed veneer. Like Loghain, she's almost as much a villain as she is an ally. However, where Loghains cold, homicidal facade concealed a deep and all-consuming love of his people and his nation, Vivienne's seemingly adamant confidence hides an almost childlike vulnerability. She is terrified of failure, plain and simple. And her fear is not a baseless one. If she falters, her rivals will destroy her. She has no real way to fight back.

 

Her redecorating is a prime example of both her talents and her weakness. She does it because it's annoying. It's a power game, a demonstration that she has the clout to influence the Inquisitor's world... but that's all she can do. She can needle, but that's because the largest weapon she has is a pin.

 

Many players will write her off, but that's always the risk with a complex character.