437 réponses à ce sujet

[Ashaantha]

Everytime I come back, I think 'do I REALLY want to read and catch up, or take a nap'.

 

Something occurred to me...or maybe it did before and I'm just remembering...but about Vivienne's character development.  When you think about it, she's probably roughly the same age, or a little older than Morrigan, Leliana and the Warden, right?  Mid-fourties to early fifties?  About that age, you settle into your own.  You've basically found who you are, and don't really change that much from that point forward.  It a way, it makes a LOT of sense that she wouldn't agree to disagree..she already knows what she wants to do in her life.  Especially someone strong-willed like her.  So expecting the Inquisitor to change her stance is pretty foolish.  She knows who she is, knows what she wants...why on earth (or 'in Thedas') would she shift her position for a younger individual who hasn't proven themselves?  She's the older, more experienced one there...YOU should be listening to her, at least in her mind.  Makes sense why she'd disapprove...she's thinking you just aren't GETTING IT!  Trust the Master, grasshopper!

 

All that I agree with, plus she has quite a bit of ego. She is Queen Bee in her circle in a way, she told my mage Inquisitor all about how she earned her way up the ranks in her Circle.

[Darkstarr11]

All that I agree with, plus she has quite a bit of ego. She is Queen Bee in her circle in a way, she told my mage Inquisitor all about how she earned her way up the ranks in her Circle.

 

That 'bit' looks like a mountain...lol...remember Solas snarking about her meeting a Pride demon and it laughing as it walked away?  It'd probably be afraid of being possessed by HER.

[TheOgre]

By the way, Duke Bastien was never Vivienne's husband. She was his mistress, an extramarital affair. She and his wife got along well and she is on intimate terms with his family so there seems to be no rancor on either side, but it is worth pointing out that Vivienne had no scruples about bedding a married man. I'm not condemning Vivienne over this. It seems to be a kind of cultural norm for Orlais, and none of those involved object to the relationship, so no harm done, but it was never a marriage. But the fact that the relationship was illicit does not make it less loving. I believe that Vivienne did care for Bastien. At first, it may have been political expedience, but she does seem broken up over his death.

 

So as long as the wife is okay with it, no harm no foul?

 

What's your thoughts on the Baron then?

[Kakistos_]

You do realize that with a much larger group of people, the chance of someone turning into an abomination becomes bigger, right?

 

And when you have Vivienne, Solas and the Inquisitor run around, you've also got Cullen and Cassandra (Seekers are capable to counter templars and mages) running around. The Inquisitor is even a "maybe" mage, so it's 2.5 mages versus 2 mage-counters.

 

It's really obvious why Vivienne only voices a concern regarding a lack of templar supervision when you recruit the mages; the current amount of anti-mage individuals in the Inquisition can't handle that many.

The Mages were free from the Templars for about a year and were not overrun by Abominations. Abominations do not just spontaneously pop up. Despite the waves of them we fight in the games, lore wise, Abominations are rare and the Chantry notion that any Mage outside the Circle for too long will be automatically possessed is pure propaganda. It is very possible that there were incidents among the free Mages but they evidently handled it and without the help of any Templars.

 

 

I'll remind you that Cullen is quite bitter about Kirkwall due to believing he should have stood up to Meredith sooner. This can very easily cloud his judgment. Further, he may simply hold Meredith accountable because she was in charge. Ditto with Cassandra, it's never mentioned who the reports claim was doing this. We have proof that it's Alrik, but not that it's Meredith pre-idol. 

 

It was not the templars who started the war: The mages were more than complicit what with their attempted assassination of Divine Justinia. And as I recall, Rhys and the other mages fought when Lambert came to arrest him. It was Adrian, not Lambert, who caused all that. Again, Lambert was doing his job (finding an assassin), Adrian pulled all the strings to get independence. 

 

The Divine does not have the authority to put the world in danger. We see this in the history when you have ax-crazy Divines like the one who ordered an Exalted March on her own Chantry. 

 

Again, I'll remind you that Fiona consciously, if idiotically, made a clear and present choice. She knew exactly what indenturing herself to a magister would cause. She also knows just what it is Tevinter mages do. By contrast, there wasn't a single person who knew about Red Lyrium on the good guy's side who wasn't Varric or Bianca. And neither of them went to Thereinfall. You're condemning them for knowledge they couldn't possibly know. 

 

Templars are required to be detached from mages. Remember mages become abominations, and templars would have a much harder time doing their jobs if they were close to their charges. 

 

Now, the funny thing is: I agree that Meredith was insane. I agree that she made for an incredibly poor leader. The reason I don't condemn her so strongly is that, as Sten puts it, she has madness as her excuse. She's wrong, but she's a wrong crazy. Many of the templars get to be that way because of the lyrium, it drives them bonkers. The mages have no such excuse. 

 

In spite of the haughtiness she has, Vivienne does remarkably care for innocents. She simply tries to project that she shouldn't. She and Varric are the only ones who care that you save everyone's lives at Haven. Is she self-serving? Without a doubt. But even she knows you have no power if the world is in ruins. 

It is suggested that Lambert was behind the assassination attempt. The Templars most definitely started the war. It was they who kept placing restrictions on the Mages and who beat, murdered and caged them after they wanted a vote. After the Mages left the Circle Towers it was the Templars who followed and instigated hostilities. This is mentioned several times.

 

"With the Circle no more, I hereby declare the Accord null and void. Neither the Seekers of Truth nor the Templar Order recognize Chantry authority, and instead we will perform the Maker's work as it was meant to be done, as we see fit." - Lord Seeker Lambert Codex Entry: The Nevarran Accord

 

"Yes, the Templar Order abandoned their duties and elected to pursue the mages to bring them back in line—but after a thousand years in which their sole role was the mages' keepers, what else could one expect? They envisioned the war over quickly; a single battle that would see the mages' resolve crumble, after which they would meekly return to confinement. That did not happen." - Divine Justinia V Codex Entry: The Conclave

 

"Of course, that changed when the Nevarran Accord was broken. I'm told the Chantry broke it, but it was Lord Seeker Lambert who made the announcement. He said the Seekers of Truth and the Templar Order were going to hunt rebel mages, no matter what the Divine commanded. I didn't know he had that authority, that he could just say we would do this and everyone would follow... but we did. I never thought of it that way, but the Seekers have always been our guides. Now they've led us into war." - Ser Jonathan Perry Codex Entry: The Seekers of Truth

[Darkstarr11]

The Mages were free from the Templars for about a year and were not overrun by Abominations. Abominations do not just spontaneously pop up. Despite the waves of them we fight in the games, lore wise, Abominations are rare and the Chantry notion that any Mage outside the Circle for too long will be automatically possessed is pure propaganda. It is very possible that there were incidents among the free Mages but they evidently handled it and without the help of any Templars.

 

 

It is suggested that Lambert was behind the assassination attempt. The Templars most definitely started the war. It was they who kept placing restrictions on the Mages and who beat, murdered and caged them after they wanted a vote. After the Mages left the Circle Towers it was the Templars who followed and instigated hostilities. This is mentioned several times.

 

"With the Circle no more, I hereby declare the Accord null and void. Neither the Seekers of Truth nor the Templar Order recognize Chantry authority, and instead we will perform the Maker's work as it was meant to be done, as we see fit." - Lord Seeker Lambert Codex Entry: The Nevarran Accord

 

"Yes, the Templar Order abandoned their duties and elected to pursue the mages to bring them back in line—but after a thousand years in which their sole role was the mages' keepers, what else could one expect? They envisioned the war over quickly; a single battle that would see the mages' resolve crumble, after which they would meekly return to confinement. That did not happen." - Divine Justinia V Codex Entry: The Conclave

 

"Of course, that changed when the Nevarran Accord was broken. I'm told the Chantry broke it, but it was Lord Seeker Lambert who made the announcement. He said the Seekers of Truth and the Templar Order were going to hunt rebel mages, no matter what the Divine commanded. I didn't know he had that authority, that he could just say we would do this and everyone would follow... but we did. I never thought of it that way, but the Seekers have always been our guides. Now they've led us into war." - Ser Jonathan Perry Codex Entry: The Seekers of Truth

 

Awesome.  I never could remember exactly what I was looking for.  Bravo for finding it.

 

Also, it seemed that there were MORE Abominations in and around the Circle than anywhere else...

[berelinde]

So as long as the wife is okay with it, no harm no foul?

 

What's your thoughts on the Baron then?

The Baron? Baron du Rellion? His captor mentions two sons in Champions of the Just so he must have a family, but he never mentions any specific familial relations in game. Or is this a character from another game? Possibly TW? If so, I haven't played it past the first few moments when I decided that the controls were awful, the voice acting was worse, and the fixed protagonist was a complete dealbreaker, but from your tone, I suspect it's someone loathsome or generally unpopular. So, in answer to your question, I have no thoughts on the Baron because I do not know who he is.

 

Look, my own marriage is happy and strictly monogamous, but that doesn't prevent me from recognizing that I can't impose my values or my preferences on other people. Polyamorous relationships are not for everyone, but if the people involved prefer it that way, it isn't my place to intrude on their happiness. Duke Bastien's family greet Vivienne with a warmth that suggests that they consider her part of the family, even if she was never married to Bastien. By Vivienne's report, Duchess Nicoline was not only aware of Vivienne's relationship with her husband, she considered Vivienne a close friend. For all we know, the relationship may have been mutually polyamorous, or Nicoline may have married Bastien for political reasons and had no sexual interest in him at all, or Vivienne may have been Nicoline's mistress, too. Regardless, the de Ghislain family seems to have been happy in their relationship, whatever it was, so I'm not going to manufacture a problem that doesn't exist. If no one felt slighted or neglected in the relationship, I will say there was no harm. If the relationship did not violate cultural values, I will say there was no foul. I would not want to be in a relationship like that, but then, I suppose that's why I didn't marry a RL Duke Bastien.

[daveliam]

In settings where political marriages exist, it's not uncommon for mistresses to be prominent.  Often, the wife brings political 'value' to the marriage, but it's not assumed that they will be attracted to each other.  When that doesn't happen, the mistress is the person that the husband is attracted to (and even loves in some cases).  Given what we know about Orlais, I could see this being the case there.

 

With Duke Bastien, in particular, it's clear that he and Vivienne care deeply for each other (likely, deeply love each other).  From what Vivienne tells us, she and Duchess Nicolene were also close (both being patrons of the arts), but that is really from Vivienne's perspective.  She could have run roughshod over Nicolene, given her personality, and for all we know, Nicolene might have despised her.  However, the fact that Bastien's family also seems to like Vivienne makes me think that Vivienne's telling the truth.

 

If I were putting all the pieces together, I'd say that Bastien cared for both Nicolene and Vivienne.  Vivienne was well accepted in the family and shared warm relationships with both Nicolene and the rest of Bastien's family.  I don't see any real evidence to suggest otherwise. 

[berelinde]

Yeah, you really have to look at their relationship in context.

[Dean_the_Young]

This entire thread has now turned into one huge novel, not even just due to one or two people, but many. Might take me quite a while to catch up now

 

This is what you say. What I hear is 'Dean you are amazing and articulate and oh so intelligent, have my babies.'

 

Which is sadly impossible. I would only have Deztyn's babies.

[Darkstarr11]

This is what you say. What I hear is 'Dean you are amazing and articulate and oh so intelligent, have my babies.'

 

Which is sadly impossible. I would only have Deztyn's babies.

 

Yes, of course I'd like pizza!

[ThePhoenixKing]

After playing through each game, I really got the sense that Viv has no idea how a Circle REALLY operates.  She lived a really privileged life.  She's a schemer, when it comes down to it.  Noticed how if you play a mage, she seems to try to settle into the mentor role rather fast?  Yeah.  After witnessing the Circle through the eyes of the Warden, and seeing Jowan, Wynne, Anders, Bethany and Orsino, I (as a player) can see she's either clueless, or willfully ignorant of the abuses that happen.  Jowan turned to blood magic.  Orsino was working WITH a serial killer who practiced necromancy and blood magic.  Anders...wow...Anders had been abused (probably worse) who ended up joining with a spirit who became corrupted and well, we all know what happened next.  Wynne tells of some bad templars and Bethany got off pretty light, but still saw some REALLY shocking things at Kirkwall if she joined the Circle there.  You name it, it happened.  

 

Vivienne was looking out for herself.  If she helped mages along the way, great for her.  Make no mistake though, she was in it for her.  She'd happily throw her fellow mages under the wagon if she needed to save her own skin.  

 

I'm not saying she isn't well written...I just feel that I figured I'd end up FIGHTING her at some point when she hijacked the plot and became the big bad.

 

Heck, I wouldn't be shocked if that happened in Dragon Age 4!

 

I actually wouldn't mind Vivienne as a villain in the next Dragon Age game. Think about it; she's calculating, ruthless and disciplined, and has a certain low political cunning, all of which are excellent qualities for a good villain, and she's perfectly willing to have her fellow mages returned to a system where they'd be raped, tortured, summarily executed and lobotomized, all in the name of order/her own power. How is that not villainous? If nothing else, we'd finally get a halfway decent antagonist for once, and after the total letdown that was Corypheus, we kinda need one.

 

I don't even care that much about the mage issue -- though yes, the Circles need to change and the abuses which should never have happened to begin with answered for. But above that, I never found Vivienne useful in any way. Remember "show, don't tell"? The writers didn't. She never does anything for the Inquisition, never gets a chance to show how much clout a supposed political mastermind can bring to our cause. Not even at Halamshiral, biggest of all missed opportunities. Unfortunately, that makes it very easy to totally write her off, especially since many players will already be inclined to disagree with her. It would have been so much more interesting for her to actually be allowed to show competence and usefulness. And on top of that, she has "plot armor" when hijacking the Divine election and rearranging Skyhold in a fit of pique. So when she does act, it's purely for herself and we can't do a damn thing about it. Which is ... business as usual when it comes to this sort of character, unfortunately. Bhelen in the dwarven noble origin was a similar example of a supposedly smart/manipulative character who succeeds primarily because everyone around him is struck with a sudden case of Powerless Stupidity.

 

Sure, Vivienne has some decent advice at times, but it's all pretty generic and not indicative of any particular depth of insight. And while her ideas on power and status may have worked for her, they made no sense to me for my Inquisitor. Holding herself above and apart, flaunting wealth and station? It might be called for occasionally when "playing the Game", but not with her own people. It flies in the face of what I imagine to be the reasons for why the people of the Inquisition (soldiers, workers, mages, templars) are so loyal to their Inquisitor.

 

Vivienne is just one huge missed opportunitiy, which is a shame because I wanted to like her.

 

All very true. I think if the writers had let us get one up over Vivienne, she might have been a bit more tolerable, but there's nothing more frustrating than blatant Plot Armour (see Snow, Ramsey).

[DuskWanderer]

So as long as the wife is okay with it, no harm no foul?

 

What's your thoughts on the Baron then?

You're dealing with a medieval culture. Given the nature of marriages, mistresses were not uncommon. In fact, what's more of a surprise was that Duchess Nicoline was okay with it, and even sponsored salons with Vivienne. More than likely, because Madame de Fer was a woman of importance, Nicoline used the connection. Makes perfect sense to me. 

[Darkstarr11]

You're dealing with a medieval culture. Given the nature of marriages, mistresses were not uncommon. In fact, what's more of a surprise was that Duchess Nicoline was okay with it, and even sponsored salons with Vivienne. More than likely, because Madame de Fer was a woman of importance, Nicoline used the connection. Makes perfect sense to me. 

 

For a long time, many important figures, nobles and the like had concubines, courtesans, mistresses or were involved in polygamy.  Heck, in some parts of the world, this still exists.  Values and moral dissonance have shaped us into not accepting these parts of other cultures.  Genghis Khan had how many wives?  Simply because we don't see it as normal doesn't mean another culture views it the same.  

 

Like DuskWanderer, I'm also surprised that Bastien's wife was friends with Vivienne, but who knows...in Orlais this might have been normal.  For all we know, she might have someone on the side as well.  Besides, it might have made sense to be allies.  The Game is cutthroat.  Having someone to watch your back would almost be a requirement to stay alive, especially when the Duke was on the Council of Heralds.  This would put anyone in his family, and their connections in the line of fire.  Having a mage to help intimidate would be nice, and Nicoline could help add legitimacy to Vivienne's position at court.  Remember, Vivienne mentioned that a Duchess threatened to have him killed for his romance with Vivienne.  Having powerful friends is necessary...

[Deztyn]

Anders stuff:

For me, there is no putting values dissonance aside. If we are going to define an action as abusive, then the action needs to be understood to be unnecessarily cruel in the context of the world we're playing in. There is no indication that it's considered that way anywhere in Thedas. I don't believe Anders even suggests it's actually immoral, just extremely unpleasant.

Since using solitary confinement as a punishment in the real world is still a subject that is hotly debated, I see no reason to define it as abusive in Thedas. Thus, Anders was never abused by the Templars. He was punished in a way that was considered appropriate to the crimes he committed in the world he was living in.

It's difficult to be sent away by your family. But Anders wasn't simply unwanted and abandoned. He had powers that were out of control and had already caused significant damage to his family. This is simply an unfortunate reality of being a young mage, having untrained powers makes you dangerous to everyone around you. Something that he is content to ignore when he condemns the Circles, despite his own experiences proving why such places are needed.

The Mistress Thing:

This is no different than if you marry off Anora and Alistair while staying with him as his mistress. It's a purely political marriage, Anora only cares about holding on to the throne. She accepts the warden mistress without rancor, only asking that you don't become a public embarrassment. This could mean that in Ferelden just having a mistress will damage public opinion of Anora. Or she might be more concerned that The Warden will be treated like a Queen and become a threat to her power base. She might just be objecting to tacky displays of affection and cuddling in the throne room. Her exact meaning isn't clear.

However, we do know that if Leliana romanced a Warden in a political marriage, she will be announced as the King/Queen of Ferelden's mistress at Halamshiral. The Warden is merely a consort whose power flows through Anora/Alistair, not a ruler in his/her own right. I find it unlikely that Leliana would jeopardize her lover's status just to add an extra title to her introduction. So it follows that being mistress to a powerful person is a thing to be applauded and increases social standing, and your spouse having a mistress is no insult on its own.

Its also worth noting that in Thedas, women aren't dependent on their husbands the way the were in the real world. They're equals. Able to inherit and hold titles even when there are living male heirs. There's less motive for a woman to fear if her husband strays, because she can be self-sufficient. Thedas also seems to have effective methods of birth control. There's no reason that a woman couldn't have her own side dish, particularly if she already has legitimate heirs with her husband.

Back to Viv:

Pretty much everything Vivienne says about Mages, Templars and Circle life is verifiable elsewhere, some of it as far back as Origins, but mage freedom supporters always dismiss evidence that doesn't support their narrative. Call it Chantry propaganda. Unusual circumstances. Templar fan delusions. Or whatever.

They would prefer to think that Viv is solely about self-interest and ignorant of the realities of Circle life, because if they accept that she is both ambitious AND a true believer in the know, they would have to concede that some of their views might be wrong.

Maker forbid.

[thesuperdarkone2]

Back to Viv:

Pretty much everything Vivienne says about Mages, Templars and Circle life is verifiable elsewhere, some of it as far back as Origins, but mage freedom supporters always dismiss evidence that doesn't support their narrative. Call it Chantry propaganda. Unusual circumstances. Templar fan delusions. Or whatever.

They would prefer to think that Viv is solely about self-interest and ignorant of the realities of Circle life, because if they accept that she is both ambitious AND a true believer in the know, they would have to concede that some of their views might be wrong.

Maker forbid.

The pot calling the kettle black eh?

 

Funny how you seem to miss Templar supporters doing the same things about them ignoring any abuses in the circles, societies who have lived well with mages without templars, and evidence that shows the Circles could be better.

 

Maker forbid

[Deztyn]

Actually, no.

Most Templar supporters I've seen, myself included, admit that there have been abuses. Like dear Vivi, we want to see the abusers punished, but see no reason to discard the entire system since it works well when it's working as intended.

And every alternate society we've seen has worked because it is structurally very different than the Andrastian nations. The Dalish, the Avvar and the Chasind all live in small closely knit communities that center around their mage leaders. Tevinter devours it's own. Given what we know of the ancient elves I don't think we can consider them a society that worked well. Adapting any of their methods would require changing the way Andrastian society works at fundamental level.

[Boost32]

Actually, no.
Most Templar supporters I've seen, myself included, admit that there have been abuses. Like dear Vivi, we want to see the abusers punished, but see no reason to discard the entire system since it works well when it's working as intended.
And every alternate society we've seen has worked because it is structurally very different than the Andrastian nations. The Dalish, the Avvar and the Chasind all live in small closely knit communities that center around their mage leaders. Tevinter devours it's own. Given what we know of the ancient elves I don't think we can consider them a society that worked well. Adapting any of their methods would require changing the way Andrastian society works at fundamental level.

People think the Dalish society lives well with free mages? Lol.
DAO: Zathrian created the werewolf curse, his clan can be destroyed because of that.
DAA: Velanna goes on a killing spree because she thinks humans have her sister.
DA2: Merill/Marethari/Audacity debacle, their can can be destroyed because of that.
ME: the Dalish clan summoned Imshael, they were destroyed because of that.
DAI: a teen Dalish start using blood magic because he wasnt chosen as the first, the result. was his death.

The Dalish are a clear example of why the Circles are needed.


And lets not forget how the Avvar almost unleashed a dragon ,possesed by a powerful spirit, on a weakened Orlais. If their mages were on a Circle it wouldnt have happened.

[Deztyn]

But Boost, don't you understand?

Those Dalish clans are exceptions. Normally they work out quite well!

Don't be hating on the knife-ears elves.

[berelinde]

This thread started out so well. It was a nice, civil discussion about a character some players love, some players hate, and some players love to hate. It was a rare bright spot on the BSN because it pretty much kept on topic, which, incidentally, was talking about a character and her opinions. And now it's degenerated into another of the 10K threads about mages and templars.

 

It's been done to death. Agreement is impossible. About the only way people with any sense may preserve their sanity is to pack up and move on before they drown in the frothing rhetoric. And now it's time for me to follow my own advice. Have fun!

[Darkstarr11]

People think the Dalish society lives well with free mages? Lol.
DAO: Zathrian created the werewolf curse, his clan can be destroyed because of that.
DAA: Velanna goes on a killing spree because she thinks humans have her sister.
DA2: Merill/Marethari/Audacity debacle, their can can be destroyed because of that.
ME: the Dalish clan summoned Imshael, they were destroyed because of that.
DAI: a teen Dalish start using blood magic because he wasnt chosen as the first, the result. was his death.

The Dalish are a clear example of why the Circles are needed.


And lets not forget how the Avvar almost unleashed a dragon ,possesed by a powerful spirit, on a weakened Orlais. If their mages were on a Circle it wouldnt have happened.

 

Yes, because NOTHING bad happens at a Circle...um...wait.

 

DAO - Lake Calenhad.  Overtaken by a Pride Demon.

DAII - Starkhaven.  Burned to the ground by blood mages.

DAA - Montsimmard.  Adrian.  'Nuff Said.

DAA - White Spire.  Again, Adrian was there...

Someone has a SERIOUS hate on for the elves, by the way.

 

Now, in the spirit of fairness, I'd like to point out something ELSE...

 

Hasmal and Perendale would have turned into disasters without the Templars (the GOOD ONES) stepping in to take charge.

 

The Circle DIDN'T work.  The ONLY Circles that seem to be free of SERIOUS problems is in Tevinter.  Yes, TEVINTER.  Their Circles actually work, which in itself should boggle the mind.  But, don't take my word for it.  Lets go back to the Circle right before the Mage/Templar War happened.  Lets shackled...you know what, SCREW THAT...lets go with the Qunari solution.  Cut out tongues, bind them and be done with it.  Lets hit the elves on the way out too.  Heck, why don't we just go genocide on the elves and save us the trouble down the road?  Dwarves too while we are at it.  If we don't have mages, we don't need lyrium.  Also, all these competing cultures...it makes things confusing.  We need ONE culture that will keep everyone on the same wavelength.  There will be no confusion as to what to do.  We simply stick to one thing, and no more problems.  

 

Which is what the Qun recommends.  

 

Sigh...

 

I don't expect most to see from my viewpoint.  In fact, I actually am glad that we have different views.  It helps.  Diversity is part of our world, and a part of Thedas.  Yet, people often are willing to turn a blind eye to abuses that don't fit with their narrative.  The elves do the best they can with what they have.  They WERE at the top of the food chain once, now they aren't.  Continually kicking them while they are down isn't going to make things better.  It's just being a bully.  A tyrant.

 

I think I've been pretty fair about seeing that the mages have screwed up.  There have been a LOT of bad eggs.  Yet I will NOT condemn an entire group for the actions of a few.  I won't put one in charge of the rest when they have not shown significant concern for the rest of their people.  The Circles as they are don't work.  If they did, we would not have the issues we do.  Obviously enough was going on to cause outrage.  When the mages complained, they were ignored.  Lambert, Meredith...did they work with the mages?  Did they hear them out?  Or did they oppress them?  Oh, but that's just ONE Templar?  Really, REAALLY?  If you have a leader who is obviously not suited for their position and is in a position to put their own people in place...how is it NOT going to be corrupt?  Meredith was an extremist.  That CAN'T be disputed.  SHE did the basic 'hiring' for the Kirkwall Templars.  She wanted Cullen because of his anti-mage stance.  She kicked out Samson because he was friendly to Maddox.  The good Templars we see in Kirkwall are NOT on good terms with their boss.  

 

The Circles DON'T work.  Sounding like a skipped recording, but I kinda need to.  What the Circle needs is REFORM.  A better screening process for the Templars AND Mages.  Seekers need to provide better oversight.  Templars and mages need to have a better understanding of the other.  Distance and hostility will only breed resentment.  Outreach into communities to help foster understanding.  A better system of mentorship to provide young mages a system to ease them into their new life at the Circle, and identify dangerous ones before they become a problem.  Better training for mages so that there are LESS incidents and possessions.  No more throwing them to their Harrowing without proper prep.  That way they can find mages like Anders and Jowan BEFORE something happens.  So that mages like Uldred don't get into positions of power to corrupt other mages.  Mages NEED to have a say in their future or they are going to feel marginalized and again, BREEDS resentment.  Templars need to be involved in the day to day with mages.  A support structure to allow those mages with families that they are on good terms with to interact with them.  To show them WHY the mage needs training as well as letting the mage know that they aren't imprisoned.  More Templars like the ones that found Wynne and Minaeve should be sent out to help mages transition from their life before to their new life in the Circle.

 

INSTEAD what I'm hearing is, Mages deserve what they got.  They need to shut up, and accept it.  Moderate voices are being drowned out by those with biases.  EXACTLY like what happened with the Templars and Mages.  And leave the Dalish alone.  Like everyone else, they have their problems, but they seem to create a LOT LESS than the humans.  Most EVERY problem in Dragon Age comes back to the humans.  Tevinter, Andraste, Kirkwall, the Blight...the elves may have burnt down their own house, but laughing, pointing, and throwing rocks at them isn't really helping.  Instead of the supposed 'civilized' response, there is only hatred and blame.  Isn't the goal to be BETTER than those who came before, or was I not paying attention in sociology and philosophy?

 

Anyway, BACK to the topic...which is Vivienne.  Everything I've mentioned comes back to her.  I see her EXACTLY as the problem with the Circle.  She doesn't want to change, she wants to reinforce.  Leliana has some noble goals.  She is, deep down, an optimist.  I won't fault her for that.  Her heart IS in the right place.  Vivienne obviously keeps hers in a small box...

 

Ahem...

 

Cassandra seems to be in line with what I've stated.  She is a reformer.  An idealist?  Sure...but she is thinking it through.  Between her and Cullen, I think they could straighten things out.  Now, before you point out that mages will take advantage, OF COURSE THEY WILL!  There will ALWAYS be outliers.  Exceptions to the rule.  Same as here.  But since throwing everyone with a different skin color in jail hasn't exactly helped US...I can't see why punishing every mage makes it better EITHER.  Send a criminal to jail, he comes out a BETTER criminal because we DON'T focus upon rehabilitation, we focus on punishment.  Throw a mage into a Circle, he comes potentially more dangerous.  How many blood mages were in Kirkwall?  Lots more during the second act, and TONS more during the third.  They put young, scared mages in with blood mages.  WHO was going to teach them magic?  

 

It failed because those in charge failed.  Vivienne was First Enchanter.  She was in charge.  They still walked out on her.  If they hadn't...where were HER mages again?  Never saw them.  So she was on her own.  She was part of the problem, NOT the solution.  Her, Fiona...the Circle needs new everything.  NOT the old guard.  

 

Learn from the past, or repeat it.

 

I need caffeine.   I'm cranky.

 

 

This thread started out so well. It was a nice, civil discussion about a character some players love, some players hate, and some players love to hate. It was a rare bright spot on the BSN because it pretty much kept on topic, which, incidentally, was talking about a character and her opinions. And now it's degenerated into another of the 10K threads about mages and templars.

 

It's been done to death. Agreement is impossible. About the only way people with any sense may preserve their sanity is to pack up and move on before they drown in the frothing rhetoric. And now it's time for me to follow my own advice. Have fun!

 

 

Good point.  It IS time to walk away...sans sanity part.  I gave that up long ago...heh...

[Magdalena11]

Regarding Vivienne, if you think a system that has failed to work can do so with a different figurehead, go for it.  Personally, I think if it wasn't working, there was a reason and changing the personality at the helm isn't going to matter.

[Boost32]

Yes, because NOTHING bad happens at a Circle...um...wait.
 
DAO - Lake Calenhad.  Overtaken by a Pride Demon.
DAII - Starkhaven.  Burned to the ground by blood mages.
DAA - Montsimmard.  Adrian.  'Nuff Said.
DAA - White Spire.  Again, Adrian was there...
Someone has a SERIOUS hate on for the elves, by the way.
 
Now, in the spirit of fairness, I'd like to point out something ELSE...
 
Hasmal and Perendale would have turned into disasters without the Templars (the GOOD ONES) stepping in to take charge.
 
The Circle DIDN'T work.  The ONLY Circles that seem to be free of SERIOUS problems is in Tevinter.  Yes, TEVINTER.  Their Circles actually work, which in itself should boggle the mind.  But, don't take my word for it.  Lets go back to the Circle right before the Mage/Templar War happened.  Lets shackled...you know what, SCREW THAT...lets go with the Qunari solution.  Cut out tongues, bind them and be done with it.  Lets hit the elves on the way out too.  Heck, why don't we just go genocide on the elves and save us the trouble down the road?  Dwarves too while we are at it.  If we don't have mages, we don't need lyrium.  Also, all these competing cultures...it makes things confusing.  We need ONE culture that will keep everyone on the same wavelength.  There will be no confusion as to what to do.  We simply stick to one thing, and no more problems.  
 
Which is what the Qun recommends.  
 
Sigh...
 
I don't expect most to see from my viewpoint.  In fact, I actually am glad that we have different views.  It helps.  Diversity is part of our world, and a part of Thedas.  Yet, people often are willing to turn a blind eye to abuses that don't fit with their narrative.  The elves do the best they can with what they have.  They WERE at the top of the food chain once, now they aren't.  Continually kicking them while they are down isn't going to make things better.  It's just being a bully.  A tyrant.
 
I think I've been pretty fair about seeing that the mages have screwed up.  There have been a LOT of bad eggs.  Yet I will NOT condemn an entire group for the actions of a few.  I won't put one in charge of the rest when they have not shown significant concern for the rest of their people.  The Circles as they are don't work.  If they did, we would not have the issues we do.  Obviously enough was going on to cause outrage.  When the mages complained, they were ignored.  Lambert, Meredith...did they work with the mages?  Did they hear them out?  Or did they oppress them?  Oh, but that's just ONE Templar?  Really, REAALLY?  If you have a leader who is obviously not suited for their position and is in a position to put their own people in place...how is it NOT going to be corrupt?  Meredith was an extremist.  That CAN'T be disputed.  SHE did the basic 'hiring' for the Kirkwall Templars.  She wanted Cullen because of his anti-mage stance.  She kicked out Samson because he was friendly to Maddox.  The good Templars we see in Kirkwall are NOT on good terms with their boss.  
 
The Circles DON'T work.  Sounding like a skipped recording, but I kinda need to.  What the Circle needs is REFORM.  A better screening process for the Templars AND Mages.  Seekers need to provide better oversight.  Templars and mages need to have a better understanding of the other.  Distance and hostility will only breed resentment.  Outreach into communities to help foster understanding.  A better system of mentorship to provide young mages a system to ease them into their new life at the Circle, and identify dangerous ones before they become a problem.  Better training for mages so that there are LESS incidents and possessions.  No more throwing them to their Harrowing without proper prep.  That way they can find mages like Anders and Jowan BEFORE something happens.  So that mages like Uldred don't get into positions of power to corrupt other mages.  Mages NEED to have a say in their future or they are going to feel marginalized and again, BREEDS resentment.  Templars need to be involved in the day to day with mages.  A support structure to allow those mages with families that they are on good terms with to interact with them.  To show them WHY the mage needs training as well as letting the mage know that they aren't imprisoned.  More Templars like the ones that found Wynne and Minaeve should be sent out to help mages transition from their life before to their new life in the Circle.
 
INSTEAD what I'm hearing is, Mages deserve what they got.  They need to shut up, and accept it.  Moderate voices are being drowned out by those with biases.  EXACTLY like what happened with the Templars and Mages.  And leave the Dalish alone.  Like everyone else, they have their problems, but they seem to create a LOT LESS than the humans.  Most EVERY problem in Dragon Age comes back to the humans.  Tevinter, Andraste, Kirkwall, the Blight...the elves may have burnt down their own house, but laughing, pointing, and throwing rocks at them isn't really helping.  Instead of the supposed 'civilized' response, there is only hatred and blame.  Isn't the goal to be BETTER than those who came before, or was I not paying attention in sociology and philosophy?
 
Anyway, BACK to the topic...which is Vivienne.  Everything I've mentioned comes back to her.  I see her EXACTLY as the problem with the Circle.  She doesn't want to change, she wants to reinforce.  Leliana has some noble goals.  She is, deep down, an optimist.  I won't fault her for that.  Her heart IS in the right place.  Vivienne obviously keeps hers in a small box...
 
Ahem...
 
Cassandra seems to be in line with what I've stated.  She is a reformer.  An idealist?  Sure...but she is thinking it through.  Between her and Cullen, I think they could straighten things out.  Now, before you point out that mages will take advantage, OF COURSE THEY WILL!  There will ALWAYS be outliers.  Exceptions to the rule.  Same as here.  But since throwing everyone with a different skin color in jail hasn't exactly helped US...I can't see why punishing every mage makes it better EITHER.  Send a criminal to jail, he comes out a BETTER criminal because we DON'T focus upon rehabilitation, we focus on punishment.  Throw a mage into a Circle, he comes potentially more dangerous.  How many blood mages were in Kirkwall?  Lots more during the second act, and TONS more during the third.  They put young, scared mages in with blood mages.  WHO was going to teach them magic?  
 
It failed because those in charge failed.  Vivienne was First Enchanter.  She was in charge.  They still walked out on her.  If they hadn't...where were HER mages again?  Never saw them.  So she was on her own.  She was part of the problem, NOT the solution.  Her, Fiona...the Circle needs new everything.  NOT the old guard.  
 
Learn from the past, or repeat it.
 
I need caffeine.   I'm cranky.
 
 



 
Good point.  It IS time to walk away...sans sanity part.  I gave that up long ago...heh...

...... You know I'm not reading it all right?
And its good those things happened inside the Circles, they were contained. Different from the Dalish.

[Rinshikai10]

There have been from great points here from both sides. While I'm not a fan of Vivi I still see her as a well written character that is very human.

 

One of the main reasons I'm not a fan of Vivienne is she acts like she above all the Mages. However, to me its who she is connected to, not her magic that got her that position. In some ways shes like a more self centered Wynne. 

 

Just my opinion though. 

[Jedi Master of Orion]

But Boost, don't you understand?

Those Dalish clans are exceptions. Normally they work out quite well!

Don't be hating on the knife-ears elves.

 

Well if they are the norm, then we should be able to make the same claim about the Circles of Magi. Every Circle we encountered in the games was overrun by demons and annulled, so clearly the Circle system can't be working as intended.

[Ieldra]

Pretty much everything Vivienne says about Mages, Templars and Circle life is verifiable elsewhere, some of it as far back as Origins, but mage freedom supporters always dismiss evidence that doesn't support their narrative. Call it Chantry propaganda. Unusual circumstances. Templar fan delusions. Or whatever.

They would prefer to think that Viv is solely about self-interest and ignorant of the realities of Circle life, because if they accept that she is both ambitious AND a true believer in the know, they would have to concede that some of their views might be wrong.

Maker forbid.

Templar abuses and suchlike are used as propaganda by the mage side just as abominations are used as propaganda by the templar side. All very predictable. However, at its heart. the war is a war of independence. One faction says "We want autonomy", the other says "We won't let you have it." Which means that the default position, as far as I'm concernced, should be pro-mage. As a rule, I consider the "We won't leave you alone and will force you into servitude" position a bully's position, and I detest and despise it to the end of the universe. Any justification to deny someone autonomy must be very, very compelling, and I am not seeing that it is.

 

This is, btw., independent from the question whether or not autonomy is a good idea from the perspective of those who demand it. Sometimes, it may not be, because an autonomous faction's strength may actually be weaker than its influence within a larger structure would've been. Nonetheless, I consider "I want to walk away" (akin to "I want to leave my country") a basic right that should not be denied without an extremely compelling justification. There's a reason why this is considered a human right. 

 

This is, basically, why the "mage question" has always been loaded in the favor of mages, and why Bioware's attempts to create a less pro-mage narrative have largely failed until DAI. Because even assuming that all the positive pictures of the Circles were accurate and "good circles" dominated the scene, I'd consider "We want to walk away" a legitimate demand for the mages, and "We won't let you" evil by default.

 

As for the danger of possession, it is in the interest of any mage faction to contain that, regardless of where they stand ideologically, even if it's "only" to protect one's reputation. For instance, an independent mage school where people get possessed would soon be out of business. Take Tevinter, from where we don't hear of any cases. They should plausibly be as ruthless in containing abominations as any templar could demand. That's why this is not a compelling reason to deny mages independence.