437 réponses à ce sujet

[Iakus]

If the Chantry thinks imprisoning mages in Circles is a way to show their appreciation for the gift of magic, then it's an odd way to show it. How can a mage think that the people respect magic when they live life at the behest of other people's whims. Can people live life being denied going outside, or being denied family or children? A Circle mage is caged and denied a say in their own fate because of jealousy and hatred of muggles for gifts that people assume will be abused. That is punitive. There is no respect for magic, just fear of it, when you restrict liberties because of it. If a man is strong and society decides out of fear that the man may use his brawn to hurt someone, and thus issues a law that imposes all strong men must wear weights on their body so they must be as weak as weakest man, then there is no respect for that man's strength. If a man is smart, and society thinks he's too smart and could use his cunning to build a bomb and hurt someone and thus imposes a law that dictates that smart men must wear impaired vision glasses so they cannot read, that is punitive and is not respecting the smart man's intelligence. Deztyn says that magic is claimed a gift by the Chantry but the Chantry treats mages as cursed.

 

THe thing is, the Circles were designed to be sanctuaries for mages.  Places where they can practice magic without being lynched, and where Templars would protect them from threats both without (muggles) and within (demons).  THe idea of the Circles came from Kordillus Drakon, who's best friend was a mage.  

 

It's later on that the Templars come to abuse their authority, or in the case of Tevinter, the mages take over and start treating muggles as batteries for their blood magic.

[Sports72Xtrm]

THe thing is, the Circles were designed to be sanctuaries for mages.  Places where they can practice magic without being lynched, and where Templars would protect them from threats both without (muggles) and within (demons).  THe idea of the Circles came from Kordillus Drakon, who's best friend was a mage.  

 

It's later on that the Templars come to abuse their authority, or in the case of Tevinter, the mages take over and start treating muggles as batteries for their blood magic.

Is a sanctuary still a sanctuary if it kidnaps people against their will and confines them there for the rest of their lives, denying them anything they cherished from their life before their incarceration to the Circle? It's a prison where mages are sent so the magic problem doesn't have to be fretted over. Even if the intention was for mages to master their magic, at what point can a Circle mage prove to non-mages that they are no danger to the populace of being dangerous? Mages practice an art that will never be adequate enough in the eyes of non-mages. Too inept at magic makes non-mages uneasy and fear abominations, too good at it and they fear you would become a magister. There's no way to please them. Even the magic that mages practice is censored to some extent by the Chantry because of fear and ignorance to the point that some mages have to hide their magical research and go through illegal channels such as the Mages' Collective to practice it. Ameridan was never part of the Circle. He's never had to witness mages commit suicide or turn apostate because they were so homesick, mages driven to blood magic and becoming harvesters just to fight being hauled back to the Circle, or having their children ripped away from them and becoming estranged. These occur in even liberal Circles like Ferelden. Not to mention the abuse of the Rite of Tranquility. These desperate rebel mages could have been Ameridan and his love Telanna- especially Telanna who as a dreamer mage would be told by the templars that she'd be so dangerous she'd have to be Tranquil. I always wondered if he would have still have approved of it if he knew the contemporary costs. Education censored because of superstition and rites of passages like the Harrowing that doesn't prove anything other than they can slay one demon chosen at random, fear used to bludgeon mages into submission, mages turning to forbidden magic out of desperation or spite- I cannot think of a single goal that the Circle is meant to accomplish that it hasn't failed at. 

[Ieldra]

Very good point.
 
The Chant of Light's stance on magic is essentially 'With great power comes great responsibility"
 
Problem is, some can't get past the second line.  And some can't even get past the first line.

I don't object to this part of the Chant. Unfortunately, with the way it's phrased it can easily be turned into something that justifies the current Chantry's practices. "Magic exists to serve man, not rule over them" is turned, in practice, into "mages must serve their fellow men and can never rule".  Yet again, I don't have a problem with being held to higher standards because of magical power, but it's nothing that can be enforced beyond punishing the "maleficarum" in the original sense without turning into oppression. Imprisoning mages will do the opposite, in fact. Why would Circle mages ever accept a moral obligation to those who imprison them? The system breeds disregard, it's a recipe for the rise of supremacism justified by victimization: "It appears we can't coexist as equals and we won't accept being kept, so we must rule to be free."

@Sports72Xtrm:
Ameridan didn't agree to use Tranquility for anything but the Seeker initiation. He warned that it would be misused.

[Ieldra]

So how have they NOT shown the dangers of magic in other societies?

Tell me, are you one of those who support omnipresent surveillance in order to prevent terrorist attacks? There will always be disasters, magical or otherwise, and there is no 100% sure prevention without total control of everyone and everything. Besides, all but one of your examples might as well illustrate the opposite since either the disasters *were* prevented - depending on the Warden/Hawke#s choice - without a system of imprisonment being present, or only the person who made the mistake suffered for it - which I find perfectly acceptable.

Any measure of prevention must be evaluated against the cost of its implementation. The perception of this cost is skewed in this case because it's paid only by a minority, but that actually makes it less acceptable rather than more. People have different opinions about paternalism, none of them necessarily more right or wrong than the other, but a system as intrinsically unfair as the Circle system will tend to breed more resentment than it's worth. Some people say that free mages will be a recipe for a new Imperium. I disagree. Tevinter's system of slavery was - and is - much more responsible for the abuses of blood magic in the Imperium than the mere fact that mages are free ever was. The irony is that the Circles breed a similar attitude - a "we vs. them" mentality with regard to the non-mage population that keeps them imprisoned. If there ever was a fundamentally justified feeling of disregard, this is it.

[Iakus]

Is a sanctuary still a sanctuary if it kidnaps people against their will and confines them there for the rest of their lives, denying them anything they cherished from their life before their incarceration to the Circle? It's a prison where mages are sent so the magic problem doesn't have to be fretted over.

No, but it can be a sanctuary if it rescues children from abuse and murder a the hands of fearful townsfolk, including their own families.  

 

 

Even if the intention was for mages to master their magic, at what point can a Circle mage prove to non-mages that they are no danger to the populace of being dangerous? Mages practice an art that will never be adequate enough in the eyes of non-mages. Too inept at magic makes non-mages uneasy and fear abominations, too good at it and they fear you would become a magister. There's no way to please them.

Sadly, mages will always be a threat.  Not through their own fault, though.  But because they are susceptible to demonic possession.  It only takes a moment of weakness at the wrong time.  And even if possession is rare, an abomination can still do a lot of damage.

 

But that still doesn't mean mages aren't people.  And should be treated with the dignity a human or elf desrves.

 

 

Even the magic that mages practice is censored to some extent by the Chantry because of fear and ignorance to the point that some mages have to hide their magical research and go through illegal channels such as the Mages' Collective to practice it.

Blood magic is forbidden.  ANd there's a reason for that.

 

 

Ameridan was never part of the Circle. He's never had to witness mages commit suicide or turn apostate because they were so homesick, mages driven to blood magic and becoming harvesters just to fight being hauled back to the Circle, or having their children ripped away from them and becoming estranged. These occur in even liberal Circles like Ferelden. Not to mention the abuse of the Rite of Tranquility. These desperate rebel mages could have been Ameridan and his love Telanna- especially Telanna who as a dreamer mage would be told by the templars that she'd be so dangerous she'd have to be Tranquil. I always wondered if he would have still have approved of it if he knew the contemporary costs. Education censored because of superstition and rites of passages like the Harrowing that doesn't prove anything other than they can slay one demon chosen at random, fear used to bludgeon mages into submission, mages turning to forbidden magic out of desperation or spite- I cannot think of a single goal that the Circle is meant to accomplish that it hasn't failed at.

Ameridan predates the Circles, true.  But he lived in an even worse time.  Between the end of the First Blight and the rise of the Chantry was a lawless age where blood magic and Old God cults terrorized the lands.  Where magic really was abused and people lived in fear of it.  Not just out of fear of magisters, but that some maleficarum would sacrifice them to a dragon.  

 

Ironically, the Rite of Tranquility may in fact lead to a true "Tranquil solution" Given Seekers are immune to demonic possession and blood magic.  If a way could be applied to sunder mages and then restore them, you'd have mages whom the majority of the dangers associated with them could be eliminated.

 

Of course, making Telanna Tranquil "because Dreamer" would be a horrific abuse of the Rite under any circumstances.  She could clearly control her power.  I'm not going to deny the Circle system broke down rather spectacularly in the centuries that followed, both in the southern Chantry and the Northern.  But that does not change what the ultimate goal of the CIrcle system was:  a refuge for mages to practice safely.  Vivienne seems determined to try and revive that goal.  Whether she succeeds or not is an open question.

[Iakus]

I don't object to this part of the Chant. Unfortunately, with the way it's phrased it can easily be turned into something that justifies the current Chantry's practices. "Magic exists to serve man, not rule over them" is turned, in practice, into "mages must serve their fellow men and can never rule".  Yet again, I don't have a problem with being held to higher standards because of magical power, but it's nothing that can be enforced beyond punishing the "maleficarum" in the original sense without turning into oppression. Imprisoning mages will do the opposite, in fact. Why would Circle mages ever accept a moral obligation to those who imprison them? The system breeds disregard, it's a recipe for the rise of supremacism justified by victimization: "It appears we can't coexist as equals and we won't accept being kept, so we must rule to be free."

@Sports72Xtrm:
Ameridan didn't agree to use Tranquility for anything but the Seeker initiation. He warned that it would be misused.

Except the phrase is "magic is meant to serve man", not "mages"

 

THe main problem is still possession.  Even a skilled mage can find themselves possessed.  THe risks can be minimized, but not entirely eliminated.  And we've seen the damage even an untrained child can cause once possessed. An adult fully come into their power and trained in its use is something even Templars fear.  This is a circumstance unique to Thedas rather than RL. In the Real World, once does not suddenly Hulk-out and start laying waste to the countryside with no warning.  Having powers that rewrite the laws of physics is scary enough.  But to lose control of that power to a demon, something even a good and honest person may fall prey to against their will?

[Heimdall]

No, but it can be a sanctuary if it rescues children from abuse and murder a the hands of fearful townsfolk, including their own families.  

 

Besides which, making it mandatory for mages to be taken to the circle is necessary considering the havoc an untrained mage can cause without meaning to, as demonstrated by Connor and Meredith's sister.  Whatever should happen within the circle or whether they should be allowed out again, training mages to control their abilities in a secure environment is desirable.

[teh DRUMPf!!]

Viv is the 1 in a million who managed to murder and screw her way to domination, and is now a boot stamping on any weaker or less skilled than her to keep that domination intact.

 

Lies.

 

Vivienne by all accounts has displayed exemplary behavior. The benefit of her affair with Bastien was an unimportant position in the court. It was her alone who made it one with any influence/clout.

 

SAVE THE BULLSH*T!

[Iakus]

Lies.

 

Vivienne by all accounts has displayed exemplary behavior. The benefit of her affair with Bastien was an unimportant position in the court. It was her alone who made it one with any influence/clout.

 

SAVE THE BULLSH*T!

And based on WoT volume 2, her relationship with Bastien caused them no end of trouble for years.  If anything, it was a hinderance.

[Sports72Xtrm]

No, but it can be a sanctuary if it rescues children from abuse and murder a the hands of fearful townsfolk, including their own families.  

 

 

Fair enough but why not penalize and punish these townfolk who hurt mages out of ignorance and fear instead of their victims? It just perpetuates the idea that it's ok to behave in such a way.

 

 

Sadly, mages will always be a threat.  Not through their own fault, though.  But because they are susceptible to demonic possession.  It only takes a moment of weakness at the wrong time.  And even if possession is rare, an abomination can still do a lot of damage.

 

But that still doesn't mean mages aren't people.  And should be treated with the dignity a human or elf desrves.

 

 

Treating mages with dignity means treating them with the same rights as everyone else and not shaming them for their magic. What I get from pro-Circle people is that they think lavishing mages with comforts make up for the abuse. That's not treating them with dignity, that's coddling them.

 

Yes abominations can happen which is why mages should use means to master their magic as much as possible. Even the unorthodox means such as the Avvar and the Chasinds. The best they can do is prepare them the best way they can, I don't think that will happen in a narrow minded Circle.

 

 

Blood magic is forbidden.  ANd there's a reason for that.

But phylacteries are still permitted? The hypocrisy won't deter mages from delving into blood magic, especially if they are  pushed past the point of not caring. There's a lot more dangerous magic out there like the blight that not even the templars will be able to contain or foil. Showing good will to unorthodox mages and forging alliances instead of a divisive Thedas might give the world a better fighting chance.

 

 

Ameridan predates the Circles, true.  But he lived in an even worse time.  Between the end of the First Blight and the rise of the Chantry was a lawless age where blood magic and Old God cults terrorized the lands.  Where magic really was abused and people lived in fear of it.  Not just out of fear of magisters, but that some maleficarum would sacrifice them to a dragon.  

 

Ironically, the Rite of Tranquility may in fact lead to a true "Tranquil solution" Given Seekers are immune to demonic possession and blood magic.  If a way could be applied to sunder mages and then restore them, you'd have mages whom the majority of the dangers associated with them could be eliminated.

 

Of course, making Telanna Tranquil "because Dreamer" would be a horrific abuse of the Rite under any circumstances.  She could clearly control her power.  I'm not going to deny the Circle system broke down rather spectacularly in the centuries that followed, both in the southern Chantry and the Northern.  But that does not change what the ultimate goal of the CIrcle system was:  a refuge for mages to practice safely.  Vivienne seems determined to try and revive that goal.  Whether she succeeds or not is an open question.

The Dragon Age is all about living in the worse time. Blights, rebellions, blood magic, darkspawn magisters, magic pushed to it's boundaries to go back in time, harvesters, red lyrium. I don't really see the Dragon Age as the grass is greener compared to the past. Perhaps it's time Thedas learns from it's mistakes and evolve instead of trudging through and pretending that everything will be ok if they stay the course.

 

It would be nice if the Rite reversal actually cured for possession but that's not proven yet. It may only just reverse the state. In which case, we'll see.

 

Vivienne's disregard for the mages' reasons for rebellion or the templars' adverse affects of lyrium addiction spells disaster to me. I think the Circle drove Samson to red lyrium, templars on lyrium forget mages can be good people and just automatically see them as monsters to cull and subdue which drove the mages to the mage rebellion, and even if Cassandra's seekers somehow reform themselves and not end up like Lucius or Lambert, I don't think they'd be able to calm tensions and repair relations with mages and templars a second time. Violent revolutions seem to always be the result of rulers' oblivious disregard to the grievances of the oppressed. "Let them eat cake" ends in a French Revolution.

[Vit246]

Lies.

 

Vivienne by all accounts has displayed exemplary behavior. The benefit of her affair with Bastien was an unimportant position in the court. It was her alone who made it one with any influence/clout.

 

SAVE THE BULLSH*T!

 

Waitwaitwait. You're saying that the political patronage of a Orlesian Duke, who was also the head of Orlais's Council of Heralds, was an unimportant position in the court?

[DuskWanderer]

Waitwaitwait. You're saying that the political patronage of a Orlesian Duke, who was also the head of Orlais's Council of Heralds, was an unimportant position in the court?

 

Court Mage was an insignificant position. And it was Marquise Mantillon, not Bastien, who was head of the Council of Heralds.

[Vit246]

And it was Marquise Mantillon, not Bastien, who was head of the Council of Heralds.

 

???

It says that Duke Bastien was the head of the Council of Heralds. At least around the time that Vivienne was climbing the social ladder? In any case, he was an influential member.

[DuskWanderer]

???

It says that Duke Bastien was the head of the Council of Heralds. At least around the time that Vivienne was climbing the social ladder? In any case, he was an influential member.

 

Where? 

 

http://dragonage.wik...r:_The_Courante

 

Given she signs her name first on a list of the Council of Heralds, I'm led to believe she was the one responsible.

[Iakus]

Fair enough but why not penalize and punish these townfolk who hurt mages out of ignorance and fear instead of their victims? It just perpetuates the idea that it's ok to behave in such a way.

 

Treating mages with dignity means treating them with the same rights as everyone else and not shaming them for their magic. What I get from pro-Circle people is that they think lavishing mages with comforts make up for the abuse. That's not treating them with dignity, that's coddling them.

 

Yes abominations can happen which is why mages should use means to master their magic as much as possible. Even the unorthodox means such as the Avvar and the Chasinds. The best they can do is prepare them the best way they can, I don't think that will happen in a narrow minded Circle.

 

But phylacteries are still permitted? The hypocrisy won't deter mages from delving into blood magic, especially if they are  pushed past the point of not caring. There's a lot more dangerous magic out there like the blight that not even the templars will be able to contain or foil. Showing good will to unorthodox mages and forging alliances instead of a divisive Thedas might give the world a better fighting chance.

 

The Dragon Age is all about living in the worse time. Blights, rebellions, blood magic, darkspawn magisters, magic pushed to it's boundaries to go back in time, harvesters, red lyrium. I don't really see the Dragon Age as the grass is greener compared to the past. Perhaps it's time Thedas learns from it's mistakes and evolve instead of trudging through and pretending that everything will be ok if they stay the course.

 

It would be nice if the Rite reversal actually cured for possession but that's not proven yet. It may only just reverse the state. In which case, we'll see.

 

Vivienne's disregard for the mages' reasons for rebellion or the templars' adverse affects of lyrium addiction spells disaster to me. I think the Circle drove Samson to red lyrium, templars on lyrium forget mages can be good people and just automatically see them as monsters to cull and subdue which drove the mages to the mage rebellion, and even if Cassandra's seekers somehow reform themselves and not end up like Lucius or Lambert, I don't think they'd be able to calm tensions and repair relations with mages and templars a second time. Violent revolutions seem to always be the result of rulers' oblivious disregard to the grievances of the oppressed. "Let them eat cake" ends in a French Revolution.

 

Okay, the forum ate my post twice so I'm going to make this quick:

 

1) Offering an abused mage in fear of his/her life sanctuary is not "punishing" them.  It would be ideal to punish those who do so.  But in the end, there are thousands of years of fear and hate for magic that has built up, reinforced by the Imperium, Blights, and maleficar and abominations.  This attitude is going to take a long time to dissipate.  

 

2 Pro-CIrcle people are not, generally speaking, for abusing mages.  They are for providing sanctuaries  so they can practice magic in safety.  The abuses that have occurred are not excusable.  But it does not invalidate that magic is dangerous.

 

3) THe Avvar do seem to have a method of dealing with abominations that should be investigated.  But although precautions can minimize the odds off possession, they cannot be altogether eliminated.

 

4) phylacteries are a hypocrisy, you will get no argument there.  But blood magic is not "unorthodox" , it's extremely dangerous.  

 

5) THe time after the FIrst Blight, when the Imperium was still reeling and the Chantry had not yet arisen, was a very dark time.  Yeah, the Dragon Age is one of great upheaval too.  Probably why the Inquisition was revived.  THis isn't the first time it's been around after all...

 

6) The Rite doesn't cure possession, it makes one immune.  A mage made Tranquil and then cured need never fear becoming an abomination.

 

7) Vivienne specifically does not disregard the rebels' reasons.  If she becomes Divine, she addresses them:  keeping a firm hand on the Templars, and giving the Circles more freedoms and responsibilities than they had seen in centuries.  What she  questions are their methods.  SHe sees their actions as validating the fears the muggles have of them.  

 

WHat makes templars see mages as monsters is not the lyrium (thought the long-term effects of lyrium addiction certainly don't help)  It's the fact that at any time one of them could become a literal monster out of nightmares.  IF that happens, they cannot afford to hesitate.  As such, they tend to avoid becoming too familiar with the mages, or getting to know them too well.  They may have to kill them.

 

Think of the line Garrus has in ME3, about how whenever the Reapers make another husk, they lose two people.  The one they take and the one who can't pull the trigger on a friend.

 

It's a pity Justinia died when she did, as she was genuinely interested in reconciliation.  And depending on the choices made, each of the three new Divines can do much to heal the rift.

[Vit246]

Where? 

 

http://dragonage.wik...r:_The_Courante

 

Given she signs her name first on a list of the Council of Heralds, I'm led to believe she was the one responsible.

 

Pg 235 of WoT Volume 2?

[Jedi Master of Orion]

Does the Council of Heralds even have a head?

[Boost32]

Does the Council of Heralds even have a head?

Yes, and it was Bastien.

[Ieldra]

I'm not going to deny the Circle system broke down rather spectacularly in the centuries that followed, both in the southern Chantry and the Northern.  But that does not change what the ultimate goal of the CIrcle system was:  a refuge for mages to practice safely.  Vivienne seems determined to try and revive that goal.  Whether she succeeds or not is an open question.

This is completely and utterly wrong. In the beginning mages confined in Circles were restricted to lighting the "eternal flames" in the various Chantry buildings, and all other kinds of magic were forbidden. These restrictions were only lessened because of protests that might have resulted in war. The history of the Circles is one of oppression gradually reduced until some Circles may have become sanctuaries in truth for a part of the mageborn population, namely those who subscribed to the "party line". There was no idea of "sanctuary for safely practicing magic", none at all, when the system was first implemented. That part is pure propaganda.

[Kakistos_]

Why you ignore that all Dalish clan we met have mages doing things with ill consequences?

And how unleashing a dragon possesed by a powerful spirit free of ill consequences?

You say this as if only Mages were responsible. The leader of the Jaws of Hakkon was not a Mage but a Warrior. A majority of his followers were mundane. It was also a free Dalish Mage that stopped Hakkon the first time. EVERY nation and society in Thedas used Mages and Magic in their wars. The Avvar and specifically the Jaws of Hakkon are no different in this respect. Even Dwarves use powerful Enchantments. Are you going to blame every war in Thedas on Mages?

 

Agreed.  I'm not saying that the Dalish way is worse than the Circle (or better for that matter), but it's certainly not free of "ill consequences".  Zathrian, Merrill/Marethari, and Imshael should be enough to demonstrate that.

I was referring to their society as a whole which has always existed, in one form or another, with free Mages. The Avvar, Dalish and other societies with free Mages benefit from the abilities they offer but there will of course be accidents and errors of judgement. People will be hit with stray arrows, fights go too far and someone gets stabbed. Those are some general consequences of letting people carry weapons around.

 

The three individuals you bring up as a measure of consequence among the Dalish are all stories of poor judgement and not alone by the curse of being a Mage without a handy dandy Templar around to stop them from exploding as the Chantry would have everyone believe. You may recall the destruction of two different Elvhen homelands by the hands of the racist Chantry's non Mage army. The Dalish suffered more by mundane swords than any spell.

[Boost32]

You say this as if only Mages were responsible. The leader of the Jaws of Hakkon was not a Mage but a Warrior. A majority of his followers were mundane. It was also a free Dalish Mage that stopped Hakkon the first time. EVERY nation and society in Thedas used Mages and Magic in their wars. The Avvar and specifically the Jaws of Hakkon are no different in this respect. Even Dwarves use powerful Enchantments. Are you going to blame every war in Thedas on Mages?

First we don't know who vc the leader of the first Jaws was, second even if he was a non-mage he would never have summoned Hakkon without one help.
You were wrong when you said they are free of ill consequences.

No, the Chantry kingdoms only used them when a Exalted March was called, so mages cant be used by nobles in petty feuds, and bar the Exalted March against Tevinter, the mages would suffer if the Blight, Dalish or Qunari had won.

And I can blame the worst things that happened to Thedas on the mages, like Blight, Breach, Abominations, etc. Thedas would be a better place without magic, the cons far outweight the pros.

[Kakistos_]

First we don't know who vc the leader of the first Jaws was, second even if he was a non-mage he would never have summoned Hakkon without one help.
You were wrong when you said they are free of ill consequences.

No, the Chantry kingdoms only used them when a Exalted March was called, so mages cant be used by nobles in petty feuds, and bar the Exalted March against Tevinter, the mages would suffer if the Blight, Dalish or Qunari had won.

And I can blame the worst things that happened to Thedas on the mages, like Blight, Breach, Abominations, etc. Thedas would be a better place without magic, the cons far outweight the pros.

Whether the leader of the first Jaws of Hakkon was a Mage or no is irrelevant. The Avvar do not have the same Mage/mundane dichotomy that the chantry imposes on the populations under their rule. Magic allowed the Avvar to craft a much more potent weapon but the conflict between them and Orlais would still have occurred if it was absent. I am in no way wrong. The Jaws of Hakkon DLC CLEARLY shows that the Mages of the Avvar provide benefits to their society that outweigh the risks.

 

The risks are even diminished as the Mages help to foster relationships with Spirits who then keep Demons away making things safer for the Avvar, Mage and mundane alike. Magic is a reality in this world and Mages will exist whether you like it or not. Mages did not create the Blight, the Breach was created through the actions of one individual and anyone and anything can be Possessed.

[Boost32]

Nothing outweight the risk of a possessed dragon.
And yes, it was a mage responsible for creating it. Corypheus and Solas are responsible for it.

Abominations only happens when a mage is possessed, the demon gains the power of the mage and add it to his own. While every life being can be possesed, its impossible to posses a non mage without the Veil being weakened, while mages can be possesed any time.

[Darkstarr11]

First we don't know who vc the leader of the first Jaws was, second even if he was a non-mage he would never have summoned Hakkon without one help.
You were wrong when you said they are free of ill consequences.

No, the Chantry kingdoms only used them when a Exalted March was called, so mages cant be used by nobles in petty feuds, and bar the Exalted March against Tevinter, the mages would suffer if the Blight, Dalish or Qunari had won.

And I can blame the worst things that happened to Thedas on the mages, like Blight, Breach, Abominations, etc. Thedas would be a better place without magic, the cons far outweight the pros.

 

 

Thedas WOULDN'T be Thedas if there was no magic.  The whole argument has boiled down to 'I hate them, so they deserve to suffer and should have no rights'.  Mages didn't ask to be born with magic, but if I were them, and people hated me simply for existing, I'd fight back too.  It ISN'T a crime to exist.

 

And while we are on the subject, I can do one better.  Want to get to the root of the problem?  Think it is magic?  Think again.  Magic may make it easier, but mages are not the only ones who can be possessed.  Animals, people...trees.  No, you REALLY want to get to the root of the issue?

 

Man.  Pick an event, and you'll find man was involved.  You don't need magic to screw up the world.  However the lions share of problems come from humanity.  More have died as a result of NON mages than anybody else.  Remove magic from the world...there will still be war, still be hatred.  Still be racism.  So if there were no mages, who would they hate then?  Elves?  Qunari?  Dwarves?  Qunari have blackpowder.  Exactly how long will it take them to figure out how to make a bomb?  And what happens when the Qunari decide that mage or not, its time to convert?  

 

People will always make excuses to justify hatred and oppression.  And people who want to kill will always find a way to kill...like Kelder from DAII.  However, that's okay...he wasn't a mage, and he was only killing elf children, so what he did doesn't count, does it?  They weren't non-mage humans, so screw 'em, right?

 

The whole argument revolves around whether or not Mages have civil rights?  And do the rights of non-mages trump the rights of mages?  And do the rights of non-mages make it alright to decide whether a Mage has the right to live or die?  Or be imprisoned for life due to an accident of birth?  

 

So if Mages are SUCH a threat to everyone around them, why not just slap them with the Rite of Tranquility right off the bat instead of waiting around until they make a mistake?  If you are THAT deadset against them, why not just remove any chance of possession from the get go?  If you TRULY believe that they are that much of a threat, why keep them around?  After all, there will always be blood mages, right?  Magic means demons, right?  If they DON'T have the same civil rights are others, then they must be less than.  If they are less than, that means they are sub-human.  You'd spay a dog, right?  To make sure that they don't breed out of control?  Well, Tranquil all the mages.  And to make sure, you'd have to invade and suppress ALL the other cultures out there that have and accept mages.  Crush them, and bring them to heel.  FORCE them to accept the one true means of control.  

 

And just to make sure, scrub any reference of mages from history, at least any that might have positive connotations.  You know, like Ameriden.  Or Andraste.

 

Ignoring that most possessions we see come from within the Circle or from Circle mages...and that the Circles are NOT the prisons that they are...and lets pretend that Vivienne is NOT the political social climber who pretends as being a devout follower of the Chantry...and that the Chantry didn't create MOST of these problems by reinterpreting the Chant of Light to suit the popular narrative of the time leading to the elimination of Shartan from the Chant and enforcing a view that mages were the enemy instead of people who needed protection and training...what good HAVE the Circles accomplished lately?  They kept the population safe?  Really?  They also exposed young vulnerable mages to abuses.  'But, the Templars were falsely accused,' some may cry.  Yeah, right, and putting them in the care of blood mages?  You know, those mages that the Templars are supposed to root out?  I mean, seriously, what good are they if they can't even do the job for which they were hired?

 

So, do they have rights or not?  Do mages have the same basic rights as any other member of the population of Thedas?  Or should they be stripped of those rights as a consequence of birth?  That's what it comes down to.  If you REALLY think they are that much of a problem and danger, why not make them Tranquil or just execute them?  If you are going to treat them as dangerous animals, why only go halfway?  

[Iakus]

This is completely and utterly wrong. In the beginning mages confined in Circles were restricted to lighting the "eternal flames" in the various Chantry buildings, and all other kinds of magic were forbidden. These restrictions were only lessened because of protests that might have resulted in war. The history of the Circles is one of oppression gradually reduced until some Circles may have become sanctuaries in truth for a part of the mageborn population, namely those who subscribed to the "party line". There was no idea of "sanctuary for safely practicing magic", none at all, when the system was first implemented. That part is pure propaganda.

Yeah, unfortunately that codex entry pretty much flies in teh face of what World of Thedas says;

 

In 1:5 Divine, the Second Blight struck.  Emperor Drakon sought the aid of mages in the battle with the darkspawn, permitting them to release their full power without restraint in the name of humanity's survival.  The mages proved essential and won enough respect to negotiate greater independence.

 

The first Circle of Magi was created during the Second Blight, with the signing of the controversial Nevarran Accord by the Chantry and the newly aligned Seekers of Truth.  The Circle served to keep close tabs on those with magical abilities while mentoring their use of magic for occasions it would be required, like injury or war.  Circle towers cropped up in communities across Thedas.  They became a refuge for those willing to bend to Chantry-imposed conventions, and prisons for those who would not.

 

Now, the Second Blight lasted until 1:95 Divine.  A full 90 years, in which mages were used on the front lines, allowed to unleash their full power in order to protect the world from darkspawn.  Would such talent really be wasted lighting lamps in chantries while the world was fighting for its survival?