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[Boost32]

@Darkstarr11: is there a tl;dr version?

[FALCONGTX]

Never ever i will make her divine.  Vivienne is type of person who is okay as long as she doesn't hold any rule on others, if she does it will be only way and that's tyranny. 

[Darkstarr11]

@Darkstarr11: is there a tl;de version?

 

 

So, do they have rights or not?  Do mages have the same basic rights as any other member of the population of Thedas?  Or should they be stripped of those rights as a consequence of birth?  That's what it comes down to.  If you REALLY think they are that much of a problem and danger, why not make them Tranquil or just execute them?  If you are going to treat them as dangerous animals, why only go halfway?  

 

There ya go.  I tend to go on and on when I post.  Why use one word when 48 will do?

[Ieldra]

Yeah, unfortunately that codex entry pretty much flies in teh face of what World of Thedas says;
 
In 1:5 Divine, the Second Blight struck.  Emperor Drakon sought the aid of mages in the battle with the darkspawn, permitting them to release their full power without restraint in the name of humanity's survival.  The mages proved essential and won enough respect to negotiate greater independence.
 
The first Circle of Magi was created during the Second Blight, with the signing of the controversial Nevarran Accord by the Chantry and the newly aligned Seekers of Truth.  The Circle served to keep close tabs on those with magical abilities while mentoring their use of magic for occasions it would be required, like injury or war.  Circle towers cropped up in communities across Thedas.  They became a refuge for those willing to bend to Chantry-imposed conventions, and prisons for those who would not.
 
Now, the Second Blight lasted until 1:95 Divine.  A full 90 years, in which mages were used on the front lines, allowed to unleash their full power in order to protect the world from darkspawn.  Would such talent really be wasted lighting lamps in chantries while the world was fighting for its survival?

During the Blight, perhaps not, but history is full of betrayals of past allies - if you can call it that. Note "mentoring their use of magic for occasions it would be required". Mages were weapons in the hands of the Chantry at the time, used and then put away into their little prisons to serve as magical lamplighters until the next Exalted March.

[Boost32]

So, do they have rights or not?  Do mages have the same basic rights as any other member of the population of Thedas?  Or should they be stripped of those rights as a consequence of birth?  That's what it comes down to.  If you REALLY think they are that much of a problem and danger, why not make them Tranquil or just execute them?  If you are going to treat them as dangerous animals, why only go halfway?  

 
There ya go.  I tend to go on and on when I post.  Why use one word when 48 will do?

Yes they have rights.
No they shouldn't have the same rights as others peoples and thats because they were born different.
Because I see nothing being gained turning all of them tranquil and because I'm pro-Circle it doesn't mean I'm a mage-hater

[Iakus]

During the Blight, perhaps not, but history is full of betrayals of past allies - if you can call it that. Note "mentoring their use of magic for occasions it would be required". Mages were weapons in the hands of the Chantry at the time, used and then put away into their little prisons to serve as magical lamplighters until the next Exalted March.

Except that codex entry says that little revolt happened during the Divine Age.  There's not much time in which that could have possibly happened.

[Iakus]

Never ever i will make her divine.  Vivienne is type of person who is okay as long as she doesn't hold any rule on others, if she does it will be only way and that's tyranny. 

Except if you make her Divine under the right circumstances, she's not very tyrannical at all...

[Ieldra]

Except if you make her Divine under the right circumstances, she's not very tyrannical at all...

Yeah, if because of your actions, there is no one left who opposes her policies. In other words, if you did her dirty work for her.

[Ieldra]

Except that codex entry says that little revolt happened during the Divine Age.  There's not much time in which that could have possibly happened.

I suspect - in-world - some irregularity in the historical sources. When WoT came out, I was prepared to treat it as canon in cases of conflicting sources, but there are in it quite a few incongruities and things that make little sense unless you assume the writers aimed at a specific reception at the expense of established lore.

At the moment, I treat both sources as basically correct with the exception of some details, perhaps with some events moved back and forth a few years.

BTW, as I checked the timeline I noticed an entry saying that around the start of the Divine Age, magic was declared illegal in Orlais unless under the direct supervision of the Chantry. This was 20 years before the Nevarran Accord was signed, so it was the time when the First Inquisition under Inquisitor Ameridan was active. After the revelations of Jaws of Hakkon, I have a hard time believing he would've agreed to that. It seems the historical accounts are a mess (read: full of retcons). Even so, I think it's appropriate not to discount any of them completely unless there is no alternative.

[leaguer of one]

 

 

Vivienne has no autruism, She only cares about herself. After all, how would she keep her confortable lifestyle if the mages rebelled and dismantled the system she relies on to keep her status?

It's not about that. If it were about her trying to keep her comfortable lifestyle she would of stayed with the empress and not of gone with the inquisition.

What she want it control not comfort.

[leaguer of one]

Yeah, if because of your actions, there is no one left who opposes her policies. In other words, if you did her dirty work for her.

Their's plenty left who can oppose her. She just took down most of them once she became divine. It's not like people are still not gunning for her.

[leaguer of one]

During the Blight, perhaps not, but history is full of betrayals of past allies - if you can call it that. Note "mentoring their use of magic for occasions it would be required". Mages were weapons in the hands of the Chantry at the time, used and then put away into their little prisons to serve as magical lamplighters until the next Exalted March.

It's not that clear cut. This is a a time were order was just coming together again. At that time mages were serverly hate by he masses and were hunted down and kill out of fear. The inquisitions job at the time was to hunt dangerous mages, hunt dangerous zealots and safe guard mages who were innocent. The circle at that time was part of that.

 

At that time the circle was need because it protected mages. It got warped over time to the mess it is now.

[PhroXenGold]

Never ever i will make her divine.  Vivienne is type of person who is okay as long as she doesn't hold any rule on others, if she does it will be only way and that's tyranny. 

 

The most tyrannical of the potential Divines is Leliana....

[Darkstarr11]

The most tyrannical of the potential Divines is Leliana....

 

You mean the one where she becomes Divine Stabbity Stab?  Where she literally silences her opposition?  I don't know...'be accepting, be loving, be free, or get shanked'.  That WOULD be interesting to see added to the Chant of Light...well, for those that DIDN'T get gutted by the new Divine...

 

...yes, huddling in the dark, sobbing IS probably the safest response...

[Iakus]

Yeah, if because of your actions, there is no one left who opposes her policies. In other words, if you did her dirty work for her.

Except her policies turn out to be...not so bad.  Not everything that people would hope for, but the lives of mages do improve under her rule.

[Iakus]

 
BTW, as I checked the timeline I noticed an entry saying that around the start of the Divine Age, magic was declared illegal in Orlais unless under the direct supervision of the Chantry. This was 20 years before the Nevarran Accord was signed, so it was the time when the First Inquisition under Inquisitor Ameridan was active. After the revelations of Jaws of Hakkon, I have a hard time believing he would've agreed to that. It seems the historical accounts are a mess (read: full of retcons). Even so, I think it's appropriate not to discount any of them completely unless there is no alternative.

According to WoT, Drakon allowed mages in Orlais, at least, to practice magic.  But they had to stay politically neutral, and no blood magic.  As such, most mages restricted their powers to comparatively harmless pursuits like healing. 

[Ieldra]

Except her policies turn out to be...not so bad.  Not everything that people would hope for, but the lives of mages do improve under her rule.

Under Vivienne, the institutional power of the Chantry is reinstated, even growing. There will be, I imagine, a sharper divide between those who subscribe to the party line, who have it much better than before, and those who don't, who are persecuted more than before. It is admittedly a smart policy, since it will bring more of the mageborn accept Chantry supervision. Independence from the Chantry, however, I see as an indispensable prerequisite for any acceptable solution.

As for the history - conflicting sources again. I'll check my sources and come back.

[Ieldra]

The most tyrannical of the potential Divines is Leliana....

Ruthless Leliana is just the most visibly violent scenario. Vivienne is just as ruthless in crushing any opposition, she's just a bit smarter in selling her totalitarian dictatorship.

[CosmicGnosis]

Ruthless Leliana is just the most visibly violent scenario. Vivienne is just as ruthless in crushing any opposition, she's just a bit smarter in selling her totalitarian dictatorship.

That's a fantastic point. Cassandra really does come out looking like the most reasonable choice, although I still have a strong preference for the idealism of "inspired" Leliana. 

[thesuperdarkone2]

That's a fantastic point. Cassandra really does come out looking like the most reasonable choice, although I still have a strong preference for the idealism of "inspired" Leliana.

Except the only way she success is if the inquisitor helps her with diplomacy or she uses the seekers to crush the opposition, meaning she has to either kill her opposition or needs help with diplomacy to succeed

[Illegitimus]

Ruthless Leliana is just the most visibly violent scenario. Vivienne is just as ruthless in crushing any opposition, she's just a bit smarter in selling her totalitarian dictatorship.

 

Well...using politics to avoid bloodshed where practical IS better.  

[Darkstarr11]

Except the only way she success is if the inquisitor helps her with diplomacy or she uses the seekers to crush the opposition, meaning she has to either kill her opposition or needs help with diplomacy to succeed

 

True, but of the three, Cassandra is more likely to rely on other for counsel.  Both Leliana and Vivienne already have an idea in mind as to what they want to do.  They aren't the type to consult, they make a decision and act upon it.  Cassandra is more likely to ask for advice, and humble herself if she is unsure.  Considering her admiration for the Inquisitor (depending on your choices), there is a fair chance she'll ask for help if she thinks she needs it.

 

Also, from what I've seen, a LOT less stabbing...unless you are a book.  Punching perhaps.

[thesuperdarkone2]

True, but of the three, Cassandra is more likely to rely on other for counsel. Both Leliana and Vivienne already have an idea in mind as to what they want to do. They aren't the type to consult, they make a decision and act upon it. Cassandra is more likely to ask for advice, and humble herself if she is unsure. Considering her admiration for the Inquisitor (depending on your choices), there is a fair chance she'll ask for help if she thinks she needs it.

Also, from what I've seen, a LOT less stabbing...unless you are a book. Punching perhaps.

Well all versions on Leliana say they might require the Inquisitor's help

[Iakus]

Under Vivienne, the institutional power of the Chantry is reinstated, even growing. There will be, I imagine, a sharper divide between those who subscribe to the party line, who have it much better than before, and those who don't, who are persecuted more than before. It is admittedly a smart policy, since it will bring more of the mageborn accept Chantry supervision. Independence from the Chantry, however, I see as an indispensable prerequisite for any acceptable solution.

As for the history - conflicting sources again. I'll check my sources and come back.

 

But the question is, if the institution of the Chantry starts treating mages better: curtailing the abuses of the Templars and providing more oversight into their actions, and, giving mages a greater degree of independence and positions of responsibility, is this not a solution in itself?

 

Isn't integrating mages into the Chantry hierarchy, even having a mage Divine show that mages and muggles can work together?  

[Darkstarr11]

Well all versions on Leliana say they might require the Inquisitor's help

 

Good point.     

 

But the question is, if the institution of the Chantry starts treating mages better: curtailing the abuses of the Templars and providing more oversight into their actions, and, giving mages a greater degree of independence and positions of responsibility, is this not a solution in itself?

 

Isn't integrating mages into the Chantry hierarchy, even having a mage Divine show that mages and muggles can work together?  

 

Only as long as the Mage Divine doesn't go overboard.  In one of the epilogues, it is harsh, but not EXCESSIVELY so.  The other?  In a way, confirms everything everyone feared about mages.  Like, a mini Tevinter.  

 

Never cut and dry, is it?