437 réponses à ce sujet

[Ieldra]

But the question is, if the institution of the Chantry starts treating mages better: curtailing the abuses of the Templars and providing more oversight into their actions, and, giving mages a greater degree of independence and positions of responsibility, is this not a solution in itself?
 
Isn't integrating mages into the Chantry hierarchy, even having a mage Divine show that mages and muggles can work together?

Maybe it does, but the question is what happens to those mages who don't subscribe to the party line - and I don't mean your typical megalomaniacal blood mage?

[Iakus]

Maybe it does, but the question is what happens to those mages who don't subscribe to the party line - and I don't mean your typical megalomaniacal blood mage?

I dunno. What happens to mages who don't want to join the College of Enchanters?

[Urzon]

Maybe it does, but the question is what happens to those mages who don't subscribe to the party line - and I don't mean your typical megalomaniacal blood mage?

I would imagine they would be treated like how the Libertarians were before DAI. As long as they don't start (or set up) another violent rebellion, they're free to have and argue their own personal and political beliefs in the Fraternities of Enchanters.

[Ieldra]

I dunno. What happens to mages who don't want to join the College of Enchanters?

Nothing, I venture to guess. Among other things, the College offers training, and likely mageborn children will be required to go there until they can control their powers, but beyond that membership is voluntary. Alternatively, there will be competing systems and mages are required to join one of them, but they'd still have a choice and most importantly, they won't be imprisoned.

[Sports72Xtrm]

I would imagine they would be treated like how the Libertarians were before DAI. As long as they don't start (or set up) another violent rebellion, they're free to have and argue their own personal and political beliefs in the Fraternities of Enchanters.

More like all the Circle First Enchanters will all be loyalist mages who prevents any competing fraternity from having a voice in the College of Magi. Vivienne will censor the libertarians anyway she can. If you're not a sycophant or parrot the party line, then the loyalist first enchanter will conveniently agree that the Right of Tranquility is required for "instability". And of course, libertarians will probably violently rebel again like in Kirkwall. That's how tyranny works and Viv is definitely a tyrant.

[Ieldra]

I would imagine they would be treated like how the Libertarians were before DAI. As long as they don't start (or set up) another violent rebellion, they're free to have and argue their own personal and political beliefs in the Fraternities of Enchanters.

I was talking about those who object to being imprisoned for life. Because you know, that part will not change under Vivienne.

[Urzon]

I was talking about those who object to being imprisoned for life. Because you know, that part will not change under Vivienne.

Vivienne brought back the old system, so just like in the old system, if you're found to be a mage you're joining the Circle one way or another. But also like in the old system, as long as you aren't violent or proven dangerous to your fellow mages, common folk, and Templars, you're free to speak your mind on the matter of Circle policy. Those forcefully reintegrated into the Circles will probably reform/join the Libertarians.

[Boost32]

The Libertarians have to go, nothing good can come from them.

[Urzon]

The Libertarians have to go, nothing good can come from them.

I wouldn't say that. After the rebellion and the taste of freedom, there is going to be a lot of hurt feelings on the part of the mages who wanted to stay free. The Libertarian Fraternity, while not having the best reputation at the moment, gives these people a small voice in how the Circles are run and a little bit of control of the circumstances in which there are thrust into once again.

To do away with the fraternity now, especially after coming off the rebellion, would breed an ever greater sense of distrust and anger among these mages. This could prove to be a volatile mix after Vivienne's heavy handed methods to reestablishing the Circles again. It would probably be best to allow them to have their fraternity, allow them to speak their piece, hold what little sway in the Circle they would have, and then ignore a majority of their rhetoric at the end of the day. All the while keeping a close eye on them. It allows them an outlet for their anger at the system, and hopefully they won't turn to doing something drastic again for awhile to get their changes.

[Ieldra]

Vivienne brought back the old system, so just like in the old system, if you're found to be a mage you're joining the Circle one way or another. But also like in the old system, as long as you aren't violent or proven dangerous to your fellow mages, common folk, and Templars, you're free to speak your mind on the matter of Circle policy. Those forcefully reintegrated into the Circles will probably reform/join the Libertarians.

Which means it's still a system of oppression. The cage has become a little more gilded than before, but it's still a cage. Which is why I will not make Vivienne Divine. Both alternatives are better, if you ally with the mages.

[FALCONGTX]

The Libertarians have to go, nothing good can come from them.

The ones that have to go is Loyalists - these people just brainwashed. Ah yes and Chatry as well have to go since one of major tenet of Chatry of a Maker(of Andrastian) - the one says: What man sin have brought - Golden City was black before Cory with frieds came there for party.

[Iakus]

Nothing, I venture to guess. Among other things, the College offers training, and likely mageborn children will be required to go there until they can control their powers, but beyond that membership is voluntary. Alternatively, there will be competing systems and mages are required to join one of them, but they'd still have a choice and most importantly, they won't be imprisoned.

Are you certain?

 

And like I said, what if they don't want to join, are uninterested in training, and simply don't want to be members?  WIll they be free to simply go their own way?  Are they going to be any more understanding than the CIrcle?

[Iakus]

I was talking about those who object to being imprisoned for life. Because you know, that part will not change under Vivienne.

It seems to me that Vivienne approves of the "If you're not a danger to yourself or others, you can come and go as you please.  Just clear it with the FIrst Enchanter" policy.

[Boost32]

I wouldn't say that. After the rebellion and the taste of freedom, there is going to be a lot of hurt feelings on the part of the mages who wanted to stay free. The Libertarian Fraternity, while not having the best reputation at the moment, gives these people a small voice in how the Circles are run and a little bit of control of the circumstances in which there are thrust into once again.To do away with the fraternity now, especially after coming off the rebellion, would breed an ever greater sense of distrust and anger among these mages. This could prove to be a volatile mix after Vivienne's heavy handed methods to reestablishing the Circles again. It would probably be best to allow them to have their fraternity, allow them to speak their piece, hold what little sway in the Circle they would have, and then ignore a majority of their rhetoric at the end of the day. All the while keeping a close eye on them. It allows them an outlet for their anger at the system, and hopefully they won't turn to doing something drastic again for awhile to get their changes.

The only good things to allow them to gather, is to eliminaste all of them after that. After what mages have done, they deserve nothing.
Vivienne already gave them more freedom, if they arent happy with that, just kill them all and be done with them.

[CosmicGnosis]

Which means it's still a system of oppression. The cage has become a little more gilded than before, but it's still a cage. Which is why I will not make Vivienne Divine. Both alternatives are better, if you ally with the mages.

Out of curiosity, what is your ranking of the Divine candidates? Include both versions of Leliana. You seem to prefer ruthless Leliana over Vivienne. Does this mean that Vivienne is always at the bottom, no matter what? And where does inspired Leliana fall on your list, if Cassandra is your preferred choice? I recall that you chose Cassandra because your playthroughs end up with ruthless Leliana. Something about not wanting to compromise your role-playing during the conversation about the traitor. But if you could get the "good" Leliana outcome, would you choose her over Cassandra?

[Iakus]

Out of curiosity, what is your ranking of the Divine candidates? Include both versions of Leliana. You seem to prefer ruthless Leliana over Vivienne. Does this mean that Vivienne is always at the bottom, no matter what? And where does inspired Leliana fall on your list, if Cassandra is your preferred choice? I recall that you chose Cassandra because your playthroughs end up with ruthless Leliana. Something about not wanting to compromise your role-playing during the conversation about the traitor. But if you could get the "good" Leliana outcome, would you choose her over Cassandra?

The question wasn't aimed at me, but I just want to give my own thoughts:

 

I think that, depending on the state of things at the end, any except hardened Leliana can be a "good choice"  All of them can potentially heal or harm the Chantry, and help or hurt the mages, depending on a number of factors.

[Ieldra]

Out of curiosity, what is your ranking of the Divine candidates? Include both versions of Leliana. You seem to prefer ruthless Leliana over Vivienne. Does this mean that Vivienne is always at the bottom, no matter what? And where does inspired Leliana fall on your list, if Cassandra is your preferred choice? I recall that you chose Cassandra because your playthroughs end up with ruthless Leliana. Something about not wanting to compromise your role-playing during the conversation about the traitor. But if you could get the "good" Leliana outcome, would you choose her over Cassandra?

With everything else being equal? I don't know what goes into the "instability rating" of the final scenario, but assuming the "stable" version of every scenario:

I like the idea of the two competing systems you get if you ally with the mages and make Cassandra Divine. Each one has the opportunity to prove its merits over the other, and there is no monopoly which means that it's less likely that one turns more oppressive in time. That's why Cassandra is my preferred candidate. Also, ruthless Leliana is better as my spymaster than as Divine.

Idealistic Leliana would be my second choice, though this scenario strikes me as a little too radical for comfort, and as little as I like Vivienne's ideas, she's an improvement over the previous state of things as well.

Having said that, the "unstable" scenarios are good if you roleplay your Inquisitor as actively anti-Chantry. My main Inquisitor is anti-Chantry, but she also recognizes that people need some stability after the chaos of the war, so I wouldn't have gone there even if I knew how. I may change this retroactively depending on what the future holds in each scenario.

[Urzon]

The only good things to allow them to gather, is to eliminaste all of them after that. After what mages have done, they deserve nothing.
Vivienne already gave them more freedom, if they arent happy with that, just kill them all and be done with them.

 
Indiscriminately killing everyone with an opposing viewpoint has a nasty habit of biting you in the ass later down the line. It instantly radicalizes those who are against you, quickly sours those who had only a neutral opinion of you, and it slowly turns your supporters holding at least a bit of morals against you because of your ruthlessness methods.

Plus, the Chantry allowed the group to continue in order to note potential troublemakers. I would think it would be a smart move to bring that easy surveillance back again. Why drive your enemies underground, which puts their identities into a set of unknowns, when you can have them happily proclaim themselves your enemies in the open this way?
 

Okay since we are now discussing different mage ideologies, WTF happened to the Resolutionists? They had a bit role in DA II, Leliana was investigating them and all signs seemed to point towards them as being the ones prolonging the Mage-Templar war...they're like less than a non-entity now, what happened?

The Resolutionists were the more fanatical and militant members of the Libertarian that split off to fight mage freedom through any means possible. Because, you know, nothing shows the common people that mages should be free and able to govern themselves more than acts of terrorism meant to scare everyone into thinking that the Circles don't work.

As for what happened to them, I'd would think that a good majority of them died during the Mage-Templar war or (if you chose that path) during the reformation of the Circle. These were the "Do or Die" fighters of mage freedom. I would imagine that their more fanatical mindset would have them more along the frontlines fighting for the freedom tooth and nail, and if they thought the mages were going back into the Circle, they would have probably fought any sort of recapture and transport back to the Circle. If they proved too dangerous, or if they turned to blood magic like a lot did in DA2, the Templars and Seekers would be forced to killed them.

[Boost32]

[quote name="Urzon" post="19527310" timestamp="1439023711"]
Indiscriminately killing everyone with an opposing viewpoint has a nasty habit of biting you in the ass later down the line. It instantly radicalizes those who are against you, quickly sours those who had only a neutral opinion of you, and it slowly turns your supporters holding at least a bit of morals against you because of your ruthlessness methods.Plus, the Chantry allowed the group to continue in order to note potential troublemakers. I would think it would be a smart move to bring that easy surveillance back again. Why drive your enemies underground, which puts their identities into a set of unknowns, when you can have them happily proclaim themselves your enemies in the open this way?/quote]
Thats not how it works, see Steeled Leliana, killing your enemies work very well.

No its better to allow them all ti gather and then kill them all. Vivienne need to bring stability Abd show to the mudane she will not tolerate another rebellion, so this action is necessary.

[Iakus]

The Resolutionists were the more fanatical and militant members of the Libertarian that split off to fight mage freedom through any means possible. Because, you know, nothing shows the common people that mages should be free and able to govern themselves more than acts of terrorism meant to scare everyone into thinking that the Circles don't work.

As for what happened to them, I'd would think that a good majority of them died during the Mage-Templar war or (if you chose that path) during the reformation of the Circle. These were the "Do or Die" fighters of mage freedom. I would imagine that their more fanatical mindset would have them more along the frontlines fighting for the freedom tooth and nail, and if they thought the mages were going back into the Circle, they would have probably fought any sort of recapture and transport back to the Circle. If they proved too dangerous, or if they turned to blood magic like a lot did in DA2, the Templars and Seekers would be forced to killed them.

SOunds like they're the mages killing everything that moves in the Hinterlands to me 

[The Baconer]

No its better to allow them all ti gather and then kill them all. Vivienne need to bring stability Abd show to the mudane she will not tolerate another rebellion, so this action is necessary.

 

Her mage-side endings entail crushing both mage and mundane rebellion. I think she's got it covered.

[Boost32]

Her mage-side endings entail crushing both mage and mundane rebellion. I think she's got it covered.

Only if you sided with the mages.
And that made me laugh, Fiona trying to rebel again (she cant be more stupid) just to be rolfstomped by Vivienne is hilarious. Still I prefer that Fiona die in Haven.

[thesuperdarkone2]

Vivienne does nothing to curtail the chantry's corruption or its racism. Why is the Mage issue the only reason people choose her?