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[Barquiel]

Bethany wrote her time in the Circle has been "bearable"...and I think Cullen (who promised to keep an eye on her) and her connection to Hawke are probably the two big reasons why templars like Alrik didn't try to do anything.

[Bleachrude]

Again I'll ask.

 

Why are we constantly using Kirkwall as the "typical" circle. Vivienne is being discounted because many think her situation is not typical but yet Kirkwall _IS_? The same Kirkwall that in-world everyone thinks is the worst circle?

 

Why do examples like Finn, Ines, Wynne and others from Ferelden get ignored. Hell, take Anders. At no point, does Anders mention being physically or emotionally abused in his time in the Ferelden circle.....and this is ANDERS so you know he would be constantly talking about it?

 

The most abusive thing he suffered was being in solitary confinement (and it couldn't be THAT long since I imagine it actually takes time to actually plan an escape which he has done 7 times)

 

Hell, let's use Alrik for example. Alrik used the rite of Tranquility to cover up his crimes but what people seem to not notice is that this means that physical abuse is NOT sanctioned whatsoever otherwise there's no reason for Alrik to hide his depravities and this is Kirkwall, the acknowledged worst circle of all in Thedas....

 

So why do people think Vivienne's experience is not closer to the average?

[Iakus]

Bethany wrote her time in the Circle has been "bearable"...and I think Cullen (who promised to keep an eye on her) and her connection to Hawke are probably the two big reasons why templars like Alrik didn't try to do anything.

 

Codex entry

 

Bethany communicates often with her family since entering the Circle, and she is adjusting to her new life with ease. For the first time, she can study magic without watching over her shoulder. After passing her much-delayed Harrowing, she took a senior position within the Circle, teaching and mentoring the newest apprentices. Bethany is surprised at how many templars are honest Andrastians, who believe they serve the Maker and the people by keeping mages from using blood magic. However, this up-close look at the templars has also shown her the abuses that inevitably occur when one group of people is given life-and-death power over another. Bethany supports the Circle as it is, but this grows harder as Knight-Commander Meredith clamps down more tightly.

 

The letter:

 

I hope this letter finds you well. My time in the Circle has been bearable, even after the templars made a point of putting me through the Harrowing as soon as I arrived. They thought I was at risk of possession or running away like Father. Glad it's over with.

I've started mentoring apprentices. I enjoy time with the children, teaching them basic spells. One of them, Ella, has taken a shine to me. Adorable!

Life's not perfect here, mind you. The templars are mostly polite, and I know they're just doing their jobs, but some hold extreme views. There's one creep named Ser Alrik who likes harassing mages, but I'll steer clear of him!

I'm doing fine! Please don't worry about me.

With love,
Bethany

[teh DRUMPf!!]

^ Funny thing. I was playing DA2 just the other day. Ella went back to the Circle and sends a letter at the beginning of Act 3.

 
Something of note in the message...
 

It's not the kindest thing to say, but nobody misses Ser Alrik. Not even the other templars. I know it's hard to imagine, but they don't want to fight. They want things to be normal: no Harrowings, no Tranquil, no one dying. But none of us are getting that wish now.

[Barquiel]

Again I'll ask.
 
Why are we constantly using Kirkwall as the "typical" circle. Vivienne is being discounted because many think her situation is not typical but yet Kirkwall _IS_? The same Kirkwall that in-world everyone thinks is the worst circle?
 
Why do examples like Finn, Ines, Wynne and others from Ferelden get ignored. Hell, take Anders. At no point, does Anders mention being physically or emotionally abused in his time in the Ferelden circle.....and this is ANDERS so you know he would be constantly talking about it?
 
The most abusive thing he suffered was being in solitary confinement (and it couldn't be THAT long since I imagine it actually takes time to actually plan an escape which he has done 7 times)
 
Hell, let's use Alrik for example. Alrik used the rite of Tranquility to cover up his crimes but what people seem to not notice is that this means that physical abuse is NOT sanctioned whatsoever otherwise there's no reason for Alrik to hide his depravities and this is Kirkwall, the acknowledged worst circle of all in Thedas....
 
So why do people think Vivienne's experience is not closer to the average?

We have detailed information about three circles in the games/novels, and all three are horrible. We have the Ferelden Circle, where the knight commander is complaining that a grand total of seven mages were allowed to help at Ostagar, is punching a pregnant woman without any consequences and another templar who tells you that the only way to get out of the tower is to jump out the window. Then we have the White Spire, where they can forget to feed you and then erase all records of you after you die, among other things such as people just vanishing (not to mention, absolutely no outdoor privileges). And then we have Kirkwall...

Vivienne on the other hand is the Court Enchanter to Celene. I mean, it's relatively easy to say „it's a bad time for a rebellion“ when you're probably the most privileged mage in Orlais.

As for Bethany, fair enough. Although I still believe a lot of her acceptance is due to the fact that she is Hawke's sister and therefore is not treated to the same treatment as some of the other mages in the Kirkwall Circle. We know Meredith tries to use Bethany to blackmail Hawke.

[Vit246]

^ Funny thing. I was playing DA2 just the other day. Ella went back to the Circle and sends a letter at the beginning of Act 3.

 
Something of note in the message...
 

 

And yet Kirkwall still produced mages like that elf Huon who murdered his wife because he was driven insane by his experience in Kirkwall and Evelina who was driven insane because the Circle locked her up instead and ignored her pleas to help her orphans.

Why are their experiences discounted while Bethany and  Ella's are touted upfront?

Why does nobody question the authenticity of their letters?

[Deztyn]

We have detailed information about three circles in the games/novels, and all three are horrible. We have the Ferelden Circle, where the knight commander is complaining that a grand total of seven mages were allowed to help at Ostagar, is punching a pregnant woman without any consequences and another templar who tells you that the only way to get out of the tower is to jump out the window. Then we have the White Spire, where they can forget to feed you and then erase all records of you after you die, among other things such as people just vanishing (not to mention, absolutely no outdoor privileges). And then we have Kirkwall...

Vivienne on the other hand is the Court Enchanter to Celene. I mean, it's relatively easy to say „it's a bad time for a rebellion“ when you're probably the most privileged mage in Orlais.

As for Bethany, fair enough. Although I still believe a lot of her acceptance is due to the fact that she is Hawke's sister and therefore is not treated to the same treatment as some of the other mages in the Kirkwall Circle. We know Meredith tries to use Bethany to blackmail Hawke.

Kinloch Hold: We have a templar tell us mages can't leave without permission. We've seen multiple mages able to do exactly that.

I don't think the Orson Scott Card comics are considered canon. They are absolutely terrible, filled with lore mistakes and Gregoir smacking a pregnant woman is the least of their issues. Considering he's Irving's lifelong bff and also strongly implied to be Rhys's father, it's very suspect characterization.

White Spire: Mages had their privileges revoked after Anders blew up the Chantry and the murders started. They used to be allowed out. Rhys and Adrian used to go on shopping trips in Val Royeaux. Part of the reason for the discontent during Asunder is how different the Circles became after the events in Kirkwall.

What happened to the real Cole was a tragic mistake made by a rookie templar. He wasn't forgotten so much as he was misfiled. No one who knew he was there was allowed to enter his cell because he was accidentally labeled a dangerous maleficar. The people who could check on him never checked on him because the filing mistake meant they didn't know he was there. It was covered up because the Knight-Commander at the time pitied the horrified young templar who had made the clerical mistake and didn't want to punish him more than he was already punishing himself. Cole had no living family and there was no one who truly needed to be informed of his death. It was horrible, but it was a mistake not deliberate neglect.

Kirkwall: It's Kirkwall. The absolute worse case scenario. Noteworthy that even there when Meredith says, "I'm going to search the Circle." Orsino says, "No." and if Anders hadn't blown up the Chantry that would have been the end of it.

You are also leaving out Ostwick and Montsimmard. Where we hear almost nothing but good things.

Here's a dialogue that neatly illustrates one of the many legitimate reasons Vivienne hates the rebellion:


Cole: Sour smell in the tower library. Rotten meat and ashes. Too quiet without the apprentices. Something crunches underfoot. Burned finger bones glitter in the ash like pearls. Ice in my veins. The archivist... what was her name?
Vivienne: Get. Out.
Cole: Why did they kill her? She was just like them!
Vivienne: They helped her. Just like you did. Anyone who wouldn't fight for freedom was freed by fire and lightning. Stay out of my thoughts demon. My memories are my own.

[The Baconer]

It was covered up because the Knight-Commander at the time pitied the horrified young templar who had made the clerical mistake and didn't want to punish him more than he was already punishing himself. Cole had no living family and there was no one who truly needed to be informed of his death. It was horrible, but it was a mistake not deliberate neglect.

 

From an institutional regard, it started as a mistake that became deliberate neglect in the cover-up.

[Deztyn]

Not suggesting it was right.

Merely pointing out that it is not a case of the templars throwing a kid in a cell and simply not caring. As so many like to claim.

[teh DRUMPf!!]

And yet Kirkwall still produced mages like that elf Huon who murdered his wife because he was driven insane by his experience in Kirkwall and Evelina who was driven insane because the Circle locked her up instead and ignored her pleas to help her orphans.
Why are their experiences discounted while Bethany and Ella's are touted upfront?
Why does nobody question the authenticity of their letters?

Please do not put words in my mouth. I never discounted Evelina or Huon. In fact, my characters typically chew out Meredith after that quest. I just wanted to point out that even in Kirkwall you can find a considerable amount of reasonable Templars. I mean, there are no shortage of individuals that insist not to judge mages by the actions of a select few, so...

[prosthetic soul]

Don't worry OP, anyone with half a brain cell does. 

[Dean_the_Young]

Don't worry OP, anyone with half a brain cell does. 

 

A pity it takes more than that to actually understand her views past charicature.

[prosthetic soul]

A pity it takes more than that to actually understand her views past charicature.

No.  The only thing it takes to understand her views is a lobotomy.