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[Urzon]

By the way, Duke Bastien was never Vivienne's husband. She was his mistress, an extramarital affair. She and his wife got along well and she is on intimate terms with his family so there seems to be no rancor on either side, but it is worth pointing out that Vivienne had no scruples about bedding a married man. I'm not condemning Vivienne over this. It seems to be a kind of cultural norm for Orlais, and none of those involved object to the relationship, so no harm done, but it was never a marriage. But the fact that the relationship was illicit does not make it less loving. I believe that Vivienne did care for Bastien. At first, it may have been political expedience, but she does seem broken up over his death.

She always reminded me a great deal of Madame de Pompadour. Just need to replace all mentions of "France" with "Orlais" and "Mage" really.

As for her character itself, she always struck me as a bit of a cynical realist. She has a great understanding on the dangers and benefits of magic, but she doesn't think that the mages could ever really be able to fully govern themselves given just how much damage and destruction a single mage can cause.

She would rather have everyone, by her definition, relatively safe with only a portion of the minority mages complaining in the Circles. Because in her mind, the supposed "good intentions" of freeing the mages means putting everyone, civilian and mage alike, in potential danger. All it takes is a single errant mage child, a mage to be put into a bad situation, or some bloodthirsty power hungry douchebag, and a town or village gets razed and mage sentiment gets pushed back another generation in that area.

[Nerevar-as]

Somehow in her view free equals untrained and uncontrolled, which is quite strawy on her part. So I see her as doing her best to restore a system she was on top of, not caring about possible victims of a rogue mage.
By the way, how are mage demographics to muggles? She constantly claims dalish methods wouldn't work, and that they abandon excess mages, although that depends on the clan, Minaeve's did, Lavellan's didn't. Of course, dalish have the advantage over humans that most are taught to fight.

[Korva]

@Urzon: There's quite a bit about her opinions that makes sense, yes. Part of what makes her untenable for me, though, is her hypocrisy. "Magic exists to serve man, not to rule over him" -- I fully agree with that sentiment, but she clearly does not, or else she would not have made a grab for the Sunburst Throne. That one move makes her just as much of an example of the bad, power-hungry kind of mage as the ones she supposedly wants to guard against. It's mind-boggling, but unfortunately not that surprising, since many people in power tend to have an "I am an exception to the rules" kind of mentality. Including many players and player characters, mind.

[Big I]

The interesting thing about Vivienne (and Sera) for me is that she created a conflict between different things I wanted as a player. I hated Vivienne and everything she stood for. I disageed with her at every turn, and honestly would have been happier if she didn't exist. However she does exist, and my priorities as a player were 1) not to miss out on content by not recruiting her and 2) not being able to use her to strengthen the Inquisition.

 

So I recruited Vivienne, did her fetchquests to raise her approval, then did her loyalty quest. According to the game and the Keep she and the Inquisitor were "friends". I have no interest in her as a character. I never take her on missions, even the Winter Palace which seems a logical place to take her. As far as I'm concerned she can just stay in her part of Skyhold and rot.

 

The whole situation left me feeling vaguely unsatisfied. The closest I came to enjoying her content was the satisfaction I felt when Leliana became Divine Victoria.

[Cha0sEff3ct]

I kind of understand her thought process. Magic on its own is dangerous and unchecked it can lead to such atrocities like Anders blowing up the chantry. She even speaks on how young mages are found "a little girl has a bad dream and she ends up setting her house on fire" or "a little boy has a fight with his mother and accidentally tears her to shreds with his magic".  In the current state of Thedas with all Mages rebelling and the circles being dissolved, Vivienne sees that the Mages are beyond redemption at this point and vigilance is needed. 

 

While she does reinstate the circles as Divine people seem to think it returns to exactly the way it was before. The epilogue goes to say that Mages quickly rise up in the circles and mages have more freedom and responsibility than ever before. Sure she has a templar order firmly leashed to her hand but I believe that is to quickly squash an Anders type of incident before it could even develop. IMO as Divine I think she will be more effective. I think the circles under her will actually be a place to foster and grow magical talent as she states. The hardest part begins with getting people to believe and see that which she shows right away as she quickly squashes the immediate revolts that oppose her taking the Sunburst throne.  It is the only way to deal with the malcontents. When that is settled with, not only will she be an authority figure to the Mages but she will also represent what a mage can aspire to as a loyal mage of Thedas, to the people of Thedas!

 

With a divine Cassandra, it seems that she returns the circle to exactly the way it was before and possibly even harsher as her reforms are seen as "going to far". Unlike Vivienne she doesn't have any concept of what it's like to actually live and be in a circle. Leliana as divine is the most chaotic I believe. Either she is a Divtator decorating the cathedral walls with blood in her own "reign of terror" to maintain unity or she let's everyone go scot free to do whatever they want. Although the latter speaks of freedom and peace, there is no way to spot check any of Thedas should something arise and that is the most dangerous, an unknowing evil. With Vivtoria just come correct or she WILL check. 

 

 

One thing she said that won me over was...

 

"I never worry, darling. A leash can be pulled from either end."

 

She's on a leash now as a mage but she shows just how to take that power back into her hands. 

[daveliam]

By the way, Duke Bastien was never Vivienne's husband. She was his mistress, an extramarital affair. She and his wife got along well and she is on intimate terms with his family so there seems to be no rancor on either side, but it is worth pointing out that Vivienne had no scruples about bedding a married man. I'm not condemning Vivienne over this. It seems to be a kind of cultural norm for Orlais, and none of those involved object to the relationship, so no harm done, but it was never a marriage. But the fact that the relationship was illicit does not make it less loving. I believe that Vivienne did care for Bastien. At first, it may have been political expedience, but she does seem broken up over his death.

 

I absolutely adore Vivienne as a character.  I personally don't support her views, but I have a few characters that do.  Regardless, however, I thinks she's a fantastic character.  The moment of weakness that she displays when Bastien dies is just such a great moment.  I truly believe that she loved Bastien and he loved her and she was actively trying to find a way to save his life (plus the game files, which refer to her as Babette, support this case as they explicitly state her intentions).  She's a really fascinating and deep character.  I will never understand the people who dismiss her as one note, as I find her to be one of the most complex characters in the game.  Yes, she speaks from a place of privilege.  And, yes, she mostly looking out for her own interests.  But there's definitely a kernel within her motivation that would empower mages, just through playing the game, versus breaking the system.  Again, I don't agree, but I see what she's trying to do. 

 

She always reminded me a great deal of Madame de Pompadour. Just need to replace all mentions of "France" with "Orlais" and "Mage" really.

 

Yes!  One of the reasons why I find Vivienne to be so fascinating is because I've always been a big history buff and I went through a phase where I read a lot about famous European royal mistresses (ps, Nell Gwynn is the best of all time).  The women who were able to successfully leverage this position into a life of comfort, wealth, and power, always seemed so interesting to me.  And Vivienne is exactly that type of character.

 

"I never worry, darling. A leash can be pulled from either end."

 

This is one of my favorite Vivienne quotes. 

[teh DRUMPf!!]

Vivienne's whole belief system is a bias because she talks as though she speaks for the best interest of ALL mages everywhere, yet from a certain point onward she lived a very luxurious and privileged lifestyle all-the-while being both a mage and a first enchanter and indulged in benefits and comforts that neither would likely ever dream of obtaining in a hundred years unless they manipulated and shagged their way to the top like Viv did.

 
Considering that she started off on equal-footing as any other mage in the Circle (excepting only for the fact that her Circle was functioning correctly, unlike the ones that we the players have seen), her privileged life just demonstrates how well mages could do for themselves if they bought in.
 
Given that, I would say she speaks for the best interest of mages better than any other one we have seen.
 
She certainly speaks for them better than Mr. Anders, who routinely ignored the fact that even mages abused in the Kirkwall Circle did not necessarily want to be free (Keran explains that the mage conspirators mostly want the Circle, they just wanted it working like it should... like the one Vivienne attended; Feynriel also says that other Circles are not as bad as the one Kirkwall and ordinarily he would be willing to go to one were he not stuck there).
 

 

True, she came from common birth, bur remember she stated that it was common for mages to be away from the Circle, all they had to do was ask permission from the First Enchanter.  Yet any time we see a mage AWAY from a Circle, Templars seem to scream 'apostate' or 'blood mage' and get all swordy.  Heck, in Awakening, I had a templar go after the freaking Queen of Ferelden because she had a hate on for a mage.

We have "seen" (using the term very loosely here) how many Circles, exactly? Two. A whopping two Circles. There are dozens of them in Thedas.

Two is hardly a representative sample of anything, yet even Bethany can be seen getting leave from the Kirkwall Circle of all places.

Quite frankly this is a silly thing to dispute. If Vivienne can say it was common for mages to be away from their Circle, how can you dispute her statement -- was she not there? Were you? Can you claim to know anything of her Circle better than her?

Again, I think you are trying to resist new information that stands contrary to your beliefs. Beliefs are the death of free-thinking; let them go.

 

Vivienne shows NO sympathy for her fellow mages.  Instead, she's quick to assign blame.  She writes off the whole Kirkwall incident as Anders, and nothing else.  She seems to forget that the templars were JUST as much at fault.  After all, mages can't beat, rape and murder themselves.  
 
I kinda have made up my mind though, when I think about it.  I do see the abuses of the mages, but when you continually kick someone when they are down, they are going to fight back.  It's always bloody, and its almost always dirty, but they fight back.  Viv, from her perspective, seems to think a strongly worded reply should be enough.  When you've got broken fingers, and a bloody mouth thats missing teeth, that proves to be a tad more difficult.  Even Cassandra and Cullen admit that the mages, while NOT innocent, were getting a REALLY raw deal.  Look in the codex.  You'll see under the Champion where another Knight Commander mentions the abuses at Kirkwall and how (depending on if you sided with the mages or not) Hawke felt that they had to step in.  Ferelden was lucky, because the Knight Commander and the First Enchanter were old friends, but it wasn't perfect.  Anders can attest to that.  The White Spire?  Yeah.  Look at Cole's backstory.  Calista and Martel handed over Avexis to Frenic...a Templar AND a Mother handing over a young elf mage to a blood mage?  
 
My issue with Viv is that she dismisses what doesn't fit with HER narrative.  Blame the mages, NOT the templars.  Ignore that most of the mages felt backed into a corner.  That even those who DIDN'T vote to join the rebellion got lumped in with the rest.  Templars slaughtering ALL mages, young and old.

 

Okay, ... this post (as well as those by AedanStarfang) demonstrate a complete lack of understanding of Vivienne's position.

Here, let me help you out (warning: these facts might shock you)

Vivienne does NOT ignore/disregard Templar abuses --

Actual quote: "By all means, protest abuses by the Templars(...)"

On the Hinterland Templars, killing apostates in the fields: they "sully the Templars' good name"

Approval:

-- re: "The Templars made their beds" = Vivienne slightly approves.

-- "Templars aren't the solution" = Vivienne slightly approves.

-- Inquisitor disbands Templar order = Vivienne slightly disapproves (least of all disapproving companions)

 

Vivienne will admit the Circle is not perfect --

-- Says that all mages have had different experiences in the Circle, however, this is just a reality of life everywhere in Thedas

-- Singles out Kirkwall as a Circle that was not functioning right and condemns it

No denial of abuses within the Circle.

 

Vivienne never dismisses anything; her narrative is not what you think it is. She is for mages getting more rights and Templars being sat down. However, she rightly believes that thrusting mages into a war they cannot win will not end favorably for them, but only in disaster (that they can be saved from their impending doom courtesy The Inquisition is dumb-luck at its finest).

 

If she becomes Divine, I don't see her as a reformer...she's going to cement power.  Mages get a better deal?  Maybe today, but the Templars will chafe under her yoke.  In time, they'll wonder why Orlais became Tevinter.  They'll wonder how a mage became Divine, and think...is this what Andraste would have wanted?  Is this what she fought for?
 
And we'll be right back where we started.

 

There is no point in hypothesizing over what will happen, the epilogue already told us.

 

If Vivienne is in good standing with the Inquisition and the Templars are being controlled, she puts down any rebellions within a few months (which is like no time, in a feudal age), makes detractors happy by renewing the Circle and makes mages happy by giving them greater power or by giving the Templars less.

 

It only goes bad if the Inquisition does not approve of her -and- if Templars are free of: lyrium and Seeker supervision and Inquisition conscription, but uncontrolled Templars were not a good idea to begin with (just like uncontrolled mages are not, either).

[berelinde]

 

Yes!  One of the reasons why I find Vivienne to be so fascinating is because I've always been a big history buff and I went through a phase where I read a lot about famous European royal mistresses (ps, Nell Gwynn is the best of all time).  The women who were able to successfully leverage this position into a life of comfort, wealth, and power, always seemed so interesting to me.  And Vivienne is exactly that type of character.

 

That's one of the reasons I like Vivienne as much as I do. She has taken the lemons life handed her and turned them into the lemonade emporium of the gods. She has her faults (and I LOVE that she is allowed to have faults! They add so much texture to a character, IMO.), but you have to admire how skillfully she dances around them.

[Dai Grepher]

@Urzon: There's quite a bit about her opinions that makes sense, yes. Part of what makes her untenable for me, though, is her hypocrisy. "Magic exists to serve man, not to rule over him" -- I fully agree with that sentiment, but she clearly does not, or else she would not have made a grab for the Sunburst Throne. That one move makes her just as much of an example of the bad, power-hungry kind of mage as the ones she supposedly wants to guard against. It's mind-boggling, but unfortunately not that surprising, since many people in power tend to have an "I am an exception to the rules" kind of mentality. Including many players and player characters, mind.

 

If you remember correctly, Vivienne's suggestion is to make Cassandra the next Divine. She does not recommend herself. She's more concerned that Leliana not get the position since she would be a disaster. Even when you tell Vivienne that she would be a good candidate, she seems shocked and can't quite see why you would think so. It takes a little convincing to get her on board with the idea.

 

Also, the position of Divine is one of service, to the people of Thedas and to the Maker. Vivienne knows this. The reforms she institutes do exactly that, by keeping the templars in line, granting mages more freedom gradually, and maintaining order so the people can live without fear of mages. It's all done to maintain order and help all of society advance.

 

I think she's a great choice. She's not only got the political and social clout, but she's got the power to maintain order herself through her magical skill. This also gives her insight on things magical, which previous Divines have mostly been ignorant about. So I can actually see her getting up off the Sunburst Throne and investigating and solving problems in person. She can also defend herself against most enemies. You might say Cassandra could do the same, but she lacks understanding of things magical, and she has no interest in politics or social gatherings. Part of being Divine is meeting dignitaries and nobles as well as commoners. Last Court is proof of this.
 

It's also likely that a future game will show the Divine as a supporting character. I would like to see Vivienne in the most spectacularly ostentatious regalia ever created, and also using her spells to righteously lay down the law.

[TheKomandorShepard]

Cassandra was seeker and part of her job was dealing with mages and magical threats pretty much sure she does know about magic and its threats a lot as templars do.

 

Also pretty much Viviene is corrupted and power hungry ,not to mention she is on other side of barricade as mage i wouldn't trust her with keeping check on mages as i wouldn't trust shady prisoners with running the prison.

[Boost32]

How is she corrupt?

[TheKomandorShepard]

How is she corrupt?

I don't know how about being involved (willingly and joyfully) in one of most corrupted systems in thedas? 

[daveliam]

If you remember correctly, Vivienne's suggestion is to make Cassandra the next Divine. She does not recommend herself. She's more concerned that Leliana not get the position since she would be a disaster. Even when you tell Vivienne that she would be a good candidate, she seems shocked and can't quite see why you would think so. It takes a little convincing to get her on board with the idea.

 

Also, the position of Divine is one of service, to the people of Thedas and to the Maker. Vivienne knows this. The reforms she institutes do exactly that, by keeping the templars in line, granting mages more freedom gradually, and maintaining order so the people can live without fear of mages. It's all done to maintain order and help all of society advance.

 

I think she's a great choice. She's not only got the political and social clout, but she's got the power to maintain order herself through her magical skill. This also gives her insight on things magical, which previous Divines have mostly been ignorant about. So I can actually see her getting up off the Sunburst Throne and investigating and solving problems in person. She can also defend herself against most enemies. You might say Cassandra could do the same, but she lacks understanding of things magical, and she has no interest in politics or social gatherings. Part of being Divine is meeting dignitaries and nobles as well as commoners. Last Court is proof of this.
 

It's also likely that a future game will show the Divine as a supporting character. I would like to see Vivienne in the most spectacularly ostentatious regalia ever created, and also using her spells to righteously lay down the law.

 

i agree with much of what you are saying, but I do have to say that I think that Vivienne has always had her eye on the Sunburst Throne.  I have always read that scene as her feigning shock, but really have just set you up to put her name forward (exactly what she wants) while thinking it was your idea to do so.  Particularly if you give the "I think mages have a place in the Chantry" dialogue option earlier.  Her response to that, combined with her 'surprise' when you suggest her, just paints a great example of her playing the game.  It's subtle and, certainly, open for interpretation, but it's how I like to see that scene, personally.

[Boost32]

I don't know how about being involved (willingly and joyfully) in one of most corrupted systems in thedas?

Do you mean the game? You know that corruption and manipulation aren't the same right?
And show me the proof that she is corrupt

[The Oracle]

I don't think Vivienne was ever placed into the game with motive of players fully embracing her views. I think she is put in to show another dynamic, an example of someone who wishes to secure her own power and influence above any other motivations. Because, even in the best organisations whose goal is one of serving the people, there will always be those who use it to serve their own means first.

 

That's not to say that I think Vivienne is a bad person, but she very much puts herself first. Her views on Mages are based on a separation between herself and them. They need to be placed in towers while she need to be placed in power. She holds herself apart. 

[daveliam]

I don't know how about being involved (willingly and joyfully) in one of most corrupted systems in thedas? 

 

Being associated with corruption =/= being corrupt yourself.

 

You could potentially make the argument that she's sold out her 'people' by endorsing the Circles, but that argument is fairly subjective.  And relies on a 'party line' that agrees that Circles are corrupt (not everyone agrees on that).

 

Unless you have specific evidence of corruption (Is she receiving bribes for favors?  Overlooking wrong-doing for her allies?  Promoting supporters over more qualified opponents?), it's not as black and white as you are trying to make it.

[Boost32]

I find it funny when people think she never stayed in the Circle, specially because she is the First Enchanter of Montsimmard.

[TheKomandorShepard]

Do you mean the game? You know that corruption and manipulation aren't the same right?
And show me the proof that she is corrupt

The game runs on corruption it pretty much is about corruption as well manipulation.

 

Already did.

 

 

Being associated with corruption =/= being corrupt yourself.

 

You could potentially make the argument that she's sold out her 'people' by endorsing the Circles, but that argument is fairly subjective.  And relies on a 'party line' that agrees that Circles are corrupt (not everyone agrees on that).

 

Unless you have specific evidence of corruption (Is she receiving bribes for favors?  Overlooking wrong-doing for her allies?  Promoting supporters over more qualified opponents?), it's not as black and white as you are trying to make it.

 

Depending what do you mean by being associated with corruption pretty much precipitating in corrupted system means being corrupted.

 

I never used argument she sold her people or something similar so i don't know what you are talking about here.

 

Pretty much this is what playing the game is about...  

[Boost32]

The game runs on corruption it pretty much is about corruption as well manipulation.
 
Already did.
 
 

 
Depending what do you mean by being associated with corruption pretty much precipitating in corrupted system means being corrupted.
 
I never used argument she sold her people or something similar so i don't know what you are talking about here.
 
Pretty much this is what playing the game is about...

The game runs on corruption it pretty much is about corruption as well manipulation.
 
Already did.
 
 

 
Depending what do you mean by being associated with corruption pretty much precipitating in corrupted system means being corrupted.
 
I never used argument she sold her people or something similar so i don't know what you are talking about here.
 
Pretty much this is what playing the game is about...

So you don't have any proof TKS.
And even as Divine there is nothing to support your affirmation that she is corrupt.

[daveliam]

I find it funny when people think she never stayed in the Circle, specially because she is the First Enchanter of Montsimmard.

 

Agreed.  Just because she has a wing at Bastien's estate and quarters at Winter Palace, doesn't mean that she also doesn't have quarters and an office at Monstimmard, given that she was First Enchanter (confirmed by Mary).

 

Plus, she's been in several Circles:  Ostwick and Monstimmard.  Yes, she has privileges that others don't, but she certainly has first hand experience of what it was like in several Circles.

[TheKomandorShepard]

So you don't have any proof TKS.
And even as Divine there is nothing to support your affirmation that she is corrupt.

Oh i did already said that taking part in system that runs on corruption.

[andy6915]

Personally, as a pro-mage who supports Leliana completely... I don't like the precedent of a mage becoming Divine. That is waaaaaaaaay to close to Tevinter's path for me. I know, I know, slippery slope. But in this case, I don't think it's a slippery slope fallacy.

[daveliam]

Depending what do you mean by being associated with corruption pretty much precipitating in corrupted system means being corrupted.

 

I never used argument she sold her people or something similar so i don't know what you are talking about here.

 

Pretty much this is what playing the game is about...

 

You didn't actually answer anything I asked.  Do you think she's corrupt because she supports Circles and you think Circles are corrupt?  Or because she plays The Game and you think that's corrupt?  Or do you have any first hand direct evidence of her corruption?

 

Basically:

You:  She's corrupt because the system is corrupt

Me:  Explain.  In what way.

You:  The system is corrupt so she's corrupt.

[Boost32]

Oh i did already said that taking part in system that runs on corruption.

Then please show us her corrupt actions.
Saying "she is corrupt because in the game a lot of people are corrupt" is not a proof.

[TheKomandorShepard]

You didn't actually answer anything I asked.  Do you think she's corrupt because she supports Circles and you think Circles are corrupt?  Or because she plays The Game and you think that's corrupt?  Or do you have any first hand direct evidence of her corruption?

 

Basically:

You:  She's corrupt because the system is corrupt

Me:  Explain.  In what way.

You:  The system is corrupt so she's corrupt.

 

No, i already explained same for matter of the circle in my previous posts.

 

You claim i said she is corrupted because the system is corrupt what is false , what i have said is that she is corrupted for participating in system that runs on corruption ,so pretty much now you are asking why person that robs people with bandits is criminal.

 

 

Then please show us her corrupt actions.
Saying "she is corrupt because in the game a lot of people are corrupt" is not a proof.

Again not lot of people ,only everyone because pretty much as i said the game runs on corruption to more specified because you doesn't seem to understand it is about corruption.

Second we doesn't see her playing the game we only she did and she admits that but time we see example pretty much involves murder during her party commited by her.