437 réponses à ce sujet

[Toasted Llama]

Agreed.  Just because she has a wing at Bastien's estate and quarters at Winter Palace, doesn't mean that she also doesn't have quarters and an office at Monstimmard, given that she was First Enchanter (confirmed by Mary).

 

Plus, she's been in several Circles:  Ostwick and Monstimmard.  Yes, she has privileges that others don't, but she certainly has first hand experience of what it was like in several Circles.

 

I think she "earned" those privileges by being... well... smart and confident.

 

And because of that and as a more general note to the thread: I admire Vivienne that she managed to get what she wanted, despite being a mage. Sometimes you have to be self-centered, after all the rest of the world is going to look after themselves or their own children first before anyone else.

[Boost32]

Again not lot of people ,only everyone because pretty much as i said the game runs on corruption to more specified because you doesn't seem to understand it is about corruption.
Second we doesn't see her playing the game we only she did and she admits that but time we see example pretty much involves murder during her party commited by her.

Again you don't have any proof.

And she didn't murder him, it is shown to us that if you disrespect a guest in a Orlesian party, the wounded part can punish the infractor (even with death), It happened in the Prosper hunting. And the one who sentence the guy is the Inquisitor, she only kill him if the say it.

[andy6915]

Again you don't have any proof.

And she didn't murder him, it is shown to us that if you disrespect a guest in a Orlesian party, the wounded part can punish the infractor (even with death), It happened in the Prosper hunting. And the one who sentence the guy is the Inquisitor, she only kill him if the say it.

 

She arranged that though. She invited him for the purpose of him making a scene so she could make a big grand and impressive entrance. Cole calls her on it. So she did create the situation that leads to his death, that sounds like murder to me. What would that legally be called, intentionally setting a scenario where you have an excuse to kill someone?

[TheKomandorShepard]

Again you don't have any proof.

And she didn't murder him, it is shown to us that if you disrespect a guest in a Orlesian party, the wounded part can punish the infractor (even with death), It happened in the Prosper hunting. And the one who sentence the guy is the Inquisitor, she only kill him if the say it.

Yes i do you just fail to grasp it same as you did in our argument about sebastian that took way longer than it should.

 

Im prett sure she did unless he faked his death and that it was part of the game doesn't make her not corrupted as the game is about corruption.

[Boost32]

She arranged that though. She invited him for the purpose of him making a scene so she could make a big grand and impressive entrance. Cole calls her on it. So she did create the situation that leads to his death, that sounds like murder to me. What would that legally be called, intentionally setting a scenario where you have an excuse to kill someone?

Yes she wanted to humiliate him, not kill him.
If you let her decide, she just humiliate him and let him go, if the Inquisitor want him dead she cant back out, still its not what she wanted.
If he died its because the Inquisitor wanted and the Orlesian laws allows it.

[Boost32]

Yes i do you just fail to grasp it same as you did in our argument about sebastian that took way longer than it should.
 
Im prett sure she did unless he faked his death and that it was part of the game doesn't make her not corrupted as the game is about corruption.

Please TKS, I just didn't want to continue that discussion, but you can think you win if you want.

Who sentenced him to death? The Inquisitor, so his death is on the player.
And no, its not a proof.

[TheKomandorShepard]

Please TKS, I just didn't want to continue that discussion, but you can think you win if you want.

Who sentenced him to death? The Inquisitor, so his death is on the player.
And no, its not a proof.

There was nothing to continue there in first place, as i was right about aveline not being associate with anders or not knowing about his fate.

 

Of course i never said inquisitor had no part but just because somone was involved doesn't mean other person wasn't ,it just means inquisitor was as guilty ,after all in first place viviene set that up and killed him.

And yep it is and again add to that what i have said before.

[Nerevar-as]

I don't kill idiots because someone tells me to. Especially because it looks she created the scenario to get a feeling on the Inqui.

[Boost32]

There was nothing to continue there in first place, as i was in right about aveline not being associate with anders or not knowing about his fate.
 
Of course i never said inquisitor had no part but just because somone was involved doesn't mean other person wasn't ,it just means inquisitor was as guilty ,after all in first place viviene set that up and killed him.
And yep it is and again add to that what i have said before.

No, you were wrong, I just don't have the patience to continue, as you are wrong now.

She doesn't kill him if the Inquisitor doesn't ask, she just humiliate him and let her go.
Its not proof.

[TheKomandorShepard]

No, you were wrong, I just don't have the patience to continue, as you are wrong now.

She doesn't kill him if the Inquisitor doesn't ask, she just humiliate him and let her go.
Its not proof.

Oh of course now explain me pls how aveline was associate with anders when she could leave hawke or anders could leave hawke?

And no, we are talking about time after chantry was blown up.

 

And?She does kill him when inquisitor asks and she set up that whole thing in first place just because inquistior could have option to show mercy doesn't change fact that she still was ready to do it as scenario where she kills him proves.

 

And again it is.

[c0bra951]

Vivienne is a user, a manipulator.  She is arrogant in the extreme.  In short, she is not likeable at all.  But if she were right in her treatment of mages, all of that wouldn't matter.  But is she?  I don't think so.  Lumping all mages in with the evil blood mages is like lumping all Muslims in with the Islamic terrorists.  We (the USA) did that to the Japanese during World War 2--not our proudest moment.

 

No matter how I try to justify her, I simply can't.  I'll swallow my pride if my inquisitor isn't a Knight-Enchanter, and bring her along.  Otherwise, I basically ignore her, or intentionally try to **** her off [make her angry--silly overreaching censorship].

[Boost32]

Oh of course now explain me pls how aveline was associate with anders when she could leave hawke or anders could leave hawke?
And no we are talking about times before chantry was blown up.
 
And?She does kill him when inquisitor asks and she set up that whole thing in first place just because inquistior could have option to show mercy doesn't change fact that she still was ready to do it as scenario where she kills him proves.
 
And again it is.

This thread is not about it.

No, she wasnt expecting it. If you let her decide she let him go, and even if she kills him, we have another example of the same thing happening (MotA DLC) then we can conclude its allowed in Orlais, so she didn't break any laws. If she didn't break any laws then its not a proof of her being corrupt.

[Cha0sEff3ct]

If you remember correctly, Vivienne's suggestion is to make Cassandra the next Divine. She does not recommend herself. She's more concerned that Leliana not get the position since she would be a disaster. Even when you tell Vivienne that she would be a good candidate, she seems shocked and can't quite see why you would think so. It takes a little convincing to get her on board with the idea.

 

Also, the position of Divine is one of service, to the people of Thedas and to the Maker. Vivienne knows this. The reforms she institutes do exactly that, by keeping the templars in line, granting mages more freedom gradually, and maintaining order so the people can live without fear of mages. It's all done to maintain order and help all of society advance.

 

I think she's a great choice. She's not only got the political and social clout, but she's got the power to maintain order herself through her magical skill. This also gives her insight on things magical, which previous Divines have mostly been ignorant about. So I can actually see her getting up off the Sunburst Throne and investigating and solving problems in person. She can also defend herself against most enemies. You might say Cassandra could do the same, but she lacks understanding of things magical, and she has no interest in politics or social gatherings. Part of being Divine is meeting dignitaries and nobles as well as commoners. Last Court is proof of this.

I actually played the Last Court just to get that damned Serault glass window not knowing what it really was about even naming my character after my Trevelyan. SMH I was surprised to find it quite fun and amusing to play. It's also a nice precursor to understanding the "Great Game". Justinia herself manipulated her way to the top as Vivienne is doing right in DA:I. They both IMO have good intentions in the long run.

 

For those who see Vivienne as power hungry and corrupt what exactly was her "end game" then? Being the Divine is no easy task considering all that is involved. She's not looking to expand and takeover other nations of Thedas. What does the Divine rule over save for being an authority figure in Thedas? She doesn't seem to be looking for any type of godhood or wielding complete magical power over the world otherwise she might've grabbed for the well herself. She says she doesn't trust Morrigan with the power which is natural as we don't know her intentions and that she trusts the Inquisitor to wield it especially since the mark on their hand may protect them. She knows whatever power that is in the well is something to be weary of. 

 

And her greatest fear of being irrelevant I think is more about wanting to make an actual impact in Thedas and less about a bid for power. You can be the most powerful person in Thedas but do nothing of relevance in your reign.

 

It's also likely that a future game will show the Divine as a supporting character. I would like to see Vivienne in the most spectacularly ostentatious regalia ever created, and also using her spells to righteously lay down the law.

This! She really needs to replace that ridiculous looking habit the Divine and other priestesses wear. I'm still waiting to meet her tailor in Val Royeaux btw!

[TheKomandorShepard]

This thread is not about it.

No, she wasnt expecting it. If you let her decide she let him go, and even if she kills him, we have another example of the same thing happening (MotA DLC) then we can conclude its allowed in Orlais, so she didn't break any laws. If she didn't break any laws then its not a proof of her being corrupt.

Of course then i expect explanation in sebastian topic .unless of course you can't explain it.

 

 

How she could not expect that ,she deliberately set up this giving life of that guy in inquisitor hands only idiot (not even idiot ,worse) wouldn't know that could end on his death , also that something is done on their party doesn't mean it is legal as what magisters do during theirs , corruption isn't only about doing illegal things , avoiding fact that the game is about doing ilegall stuff.  

[Panda]

Idk, her view of magic and mages are most close to mine though. I really like how we got pro-Circle companion this time, we have only had Wynne before.

[Fearsome1]

I liked that Vivienne was planned to be a little caustic in personality, but they didn't utilize her to full capacity. Morrigan eventually came to Skyhold, and they never clashed once. Not once? MORRIGAN!!! So difficult to understand why the devs passed on having a confrontation that could have been so epic?

[Lyralei]

Haha, I agree. I honestly go through a bit of an eternal struggle with myself when deciding to recruit her or not. I always end up bringing her along and just end up ignoring he. Seriously, I want to like her...but she's nuts. 

[Boost32]

Of course then i expect explanation in sebastian topic .unless of course you can't explain it.
 
 

How she could not expect that ,she deliberately set up this giving life of that guy in inquisitor hands only idiot (not even idiot ,worse) wouldn't know that could end on his death , also that something is done on their party doesn't mean it is legal as what magisters do during theirs , corruption isn't only about doing illegal things , avoiding fact that the game is about doing ilegall stuff.

I could, but you wouldn't agree with me. There is something called moving on, I advise you to make use of it.

Yes thats exactly what a corrupt act is. I don't know in your country, but in mine corruption is a crime, so since she did not break the law, she couldn't have commited the crime of corruption.
You can call the act manipulative, cruel or evil, still it was lawful, and because of that not a corrupt act.

[Reznore57]

For those who see Vivienne as power hungry and corrupt what exactly was her "end game" then? Being the Divine is no easy task considering all that is involved.

 

Her end game is probably not ending up in the same place as the start of Inquisition.

Celene ditch her for Morrigan , her powerful lover is dying , there's no more circle , the only thing left was her relationship with other nobles but with the Civil War and Gaspard she probably wasn't sure whose head could roll.

 

As a divine she's untouchable .

[Boost32]

Her end game is probably not ending up in the same place as the start of Inquisition.
Celene ditch her for Morrigan , her powerful lover is dying , there's no more circle , the only thing left was her relationship with other nobles but with the Civil War and Gaspard she probably wasn't sure whose head could roll.
 
As a divine she's untouchable .

Celene didn't ditch her, she left on her own and Celene didn't want her to leave (dialogue with Cole), and if she is still the empress and Vivienne is not the Divine, she invite Vivienne back.
Vivienne is the Imperial Enchanter, Morrigan is the arcane advisor. They didn't have the same role.

[Cha0sEff3ct]

I liked that Vivienne was planned to be a little caustic in personality, but they didn't utilize her to full capacity. Morrigan eventually came to Skyhold, and they never clashed once. Not once? MORRIGAN!!! So difficult to understand why the devs passed on having a confrontation that could have been so epic?

To be fair, they don't really care for each other so I understand why they would avoid interacting altogether at Skyhold. 

 

I agree though they did waste an opportunity to have more epic banter between them specifically in the Arbor Wilds. I was kind of disappointed when you take them both to the Temple of Mythal... it's still amusing though...

 

 

And I also like when you complete the first puzzle Morrigan says "Let's see what awaits us behind those doors." and Vivienne is like "You go first, I insist!"

 

I'd love to see Morrigan's face when she meets Divine Vivtoria. I hope they don't let us down. Possibly a Flemythorrigan vs. Vivtoria battle. Vivtoria is able to prevent her dragon transformation and then an epic mage battle ensues between them a la Gandalf vs. Sauron.

[TheKomandorShepard]

I could, but you wouldn't agree with me. There is something called moving on, I advise you to make use of it.

Yes thats exactly what a corrupt act is. I don't know in your country, but in mine corruption is a crime, so since she did not break the law, she couldn't have commited the crime of corruption.
You can call the act manipulative, cruel or evil, still it was lawful, and because of that not a corrupt act.

 

Well you didn't do that during our entire conversation in sebastian topic so i doubt that you could.

 

No it isn't? Of course corruption is often illegal but it isn't about illegal in fact there is such thing as legal corruption and term corruption may concern even morality.

[Dai Grepher]

Cassandra was seeker and part of her job was dealing with mages and magical threats pretty much sure she does know about magic and its threats a lot as templars do.

 

Also pretty much Viviene is corrupted and power hungry ,not to mention she is on other side of barricade as mage i wouldn't trust her with keeping check on mages as i wouldn't trust shady prisoners with running the prison.

 

Right, but I'm not referring to combating magic. I'm talking about researching it. Cass doesn't know anything about that, but Vivienne does. Also, Cass should rebuild the Seekers. She can't rightly do that as Divine, since the Seekers are a separate order from the Chantry.

 

Her involvement in the Game is Celene's doing. Vivienne was First Enchanter, and then Celene requested her council at court. Vivienne then turned the position of "court jester" into one of respect. Surviving the Game doesn't necessarily make you corrupt. My male human mage beat the Game without being corrupt. If anything he exposed corruption... and... danced like a man... not a ballerina.
 

As for killing that guy, she only does that if the Herald demands it. So does that make the Herald corrupt? Now, I will agree that the law is nothing to go by when deciding morality. Orlais permits all kinds of immoral stuff after all. So lets look at this from a moral perspective. Did the punishment fit the crime? Well, the guy attempted to draw a weapon on an unarmed person (if a mage). It can be reasoned that he intended to kill the Herald quickly. So, attempted murder. I'd say that's pretty worthy, even if it had failed spectacularly, which it would have. So I don't see killing him as corrupt. If left to Vivienne, she will just humiliate him and send him on his way to try and regain some honor by fighting in the war.

 

As for her station. She rose in the Circle because she was talented, knowledgeable, and compliant with the rules. It's like she'll tell The Iron Bull, some pound on the wall mindlessly, others use the tools at their disposal. Vivienne used her toolset to get over, under, or around the wall. So it's only natural that she would see herself as better than the mages who remain stuck in their ignorance. She sees individuals of different levels of worth. That's all.

[Boost32]

Well you didn't do that during our entire conversation in sebastian topic so i doubt that you could.
 
No it isn't? Of course corruption is often illegal but it isn't about illegal in fact there is such thing as legal corruption and term corruption may concern even morality.

Ofc I did, you just don't want to see it.

OK, now you are desperate. No proof to back up what you are saying.