437 réponses à ce sujet

[BigEvil]

I noticed a few people mention that Vivi doesn't really do anything for the Inquisition with her supposed mastery of the Game and political skills and I agree. I had a diabolical thought about this some time ago when I got to a playthrough where my mage Inquisitor went to her salon, heard her out, then turned her down. Her response is pretty much "Fine. Whatever. Don't need you." Coming right after her talk of "the Sky is torn, everyone must help and fight the good fight." It seemed like she didn't really give a damn about even stopping the breach if she couldn't gain political power for doing so.

 

But what if Bioware had gone a different route in the instance of a player not recruiting her? What if outside of the Inquisition, Vivi actually had put her manipulative, political maneuvering to good use because she needed to, to survive. Instead of being out of the game, she could have garnered support in Val Royeaux while the Inquisition was busy trying to recruit either the mages or templars. And when Haven was attacked and the Inquisition fled to Skyhold, she could have been influencing the Grand Clerics through the noble support she had amassed. Then, while the Inquisitor was at the Winter Palace or trying to deal with the Wardens, Vivi could have been in Halamshiral to manipulate things to her advantage (with the Inquisitor running into her either when they go there, or perhaps only hearing about her visit if they do that quest second). Free of the shackles of not being able to step on Josephine's or the Inquisitor's toes without Leliana knowing and going full Spymaster on her, Vivi could have positioned herself to becoming Divine and entirely cutting the legs out from under Leli and Cass's march to the Sunburst Throne. It would have royally pissed people off, but it could have shown how she was a master of the Game.

 

Just an evil thought I had.

[Dai Grepher]

Nah. What influences the clerics most is the state of the world after the Inquisitor's choices, and who the Inquisitor supports.

[Dai Grepher]

Vivienne supporters, tell me what exactly does Vivienne do to stop curtail the chantry's rampant racism against non-humans or to have the chantry actually focus on helping people with charity rather than focusing on itself

 

She stuns them with her gorgeous shimmering gowns.

 

Personally, I like that she isn't said to do much for the common folk. I prefer that be the Inquisition's job. My male human mage's Inquisition is about expanding knowledge, developing magic, educating people, charity, and helping to keep peace in allied lands through diplomacy first, secrets second, and forces as a last resort.

 

Though none of this is meant to insinuate that Vivienne does nothing for the people or the Chantry, other than secure order with the mages and templars. It simply isn't mentioned.

[HK-90210]

See me, I have trouble NOT liking Vivienne. To me, she runs as a very strong counterpoint to the social justice warriors(Anders, Ander+Justice/Vengeance, Leliana, Fiona, etc) in Dragon Age who talk and talk about how the mages have been maligned. She instead takes a hard line by saying that mages are dangerous, the the Circle system is needed to keep them from harming innocent people. And the DO harm innocent people. And hearing that from a mage rather than a templar can make a person question their previous evaluations of the Circle system. She's not a templar, trained not to see mages as human. She DOES see them as human. She sees the broken part of humanity in them. She sees the past actions of mages who have done harm, and knows that no mage is free from that temptation.

 

No, her point of view isn't perfect. She has her bouts of hypocrisy, as do we all. She's a flawed character. It's part of what makes her a well-written one. But her point of view is not meant to be taken by itself. When balanced with the other things you see in previous Dragon Age games as well as in the rest of DA:I, one gets a more complete picture of mages, the Circle, and Templars. Vivienne's opinion(that of a Circle and Chantry loyalist), is one that was sorely needed in the Dragon Age universe. No wide-spread system such as the Chantry or the Circle can exist for 9 centuries without the approval of the majority. It was nice to see someone voice WHY the Chantry and the Circle possessed such a majority.

[thesuperdarkone2]

She stuns them with her gorgeous shimmering gowns.
 
Personally, I like that she isn't said to do much for the common folk. I prefer that be the Inquisition's job. My male human mage's Inquisition is about expanding knowledge, developing magic, educating people, charity, and helping to keep peace in allied lands through diplomacy first, secrets second, and forces as a last resort.
 
Though none of this is meant to insinuate that Vivienne does nothing for the people or the Chantry, other than secure order with the mages and templars. It simply isn't mentioned.

Vivienne outright disapproves of saying the people are important to you in the Templar mission and wants you to refuse vales regulars since they are dirty peasants. All her views are that appearance matters. She doesn't give a damn about he poor.

No, I doubt she'll make the chantry more tolerant of non-humans or more focused on charity

[Dai Grepher]

Vivienne outright disapproves of saying the people are important to you in the Templar mission and wants you to refuse vales regulars since they are dirty peasants. All her views are that appearance matters. She doesn't give a damn about he poor.

No, I doubt she'll make the chantry more tolerant of non-humans or more focused on charity

 

She slightly disapproves, but it isn't for the reason you stated. She remarks that playing to the common folk is an interesting strategy, but obviously she would have preferred raising the templars to the top in order to better persuade them. As for Vale's Regulars, perhaps she is unsure of their skill and doesn't want inexperienced people joining and getting themselves and others killed.
 

But the Chantry is already tolerant of non-humans. Any who want to worship the Maker are free to do so. There was even talk of an exalted march on Orzammar because Brother Burkel was murdered in a peaceful protest. All men are the work of their Maker's hand, from the lowest slave to the highest king. City elves are also Andrastian. And both Inquisition and JoH prove that some Dalish converted to Andrasteism.

 

Again, I don't care if Vivienne ignores the poor. I prefer that the Inquisition or the actual lords of the lands look after the poor.

[Big I]

See me, I have trouble NOT liking Vivienne. To me, she runs as a very strong counterpoint to the social justice warriors(Anders, Ander+Justice/Vengeance, Leliana, Fiona, etc) in Dragon Age who talk and talk about how the mages have been maligned. She instead takes a hard line by saying that mages are dangerous, the the Circle system is needed to keep them from harming innocent people.

...

 No wide-spread system such as the Chantry or the Circle can exist for 9 centuries without the approval of the majority. It was nice to see someone voice WHY the Chantry and the Circle possessed such a majority.

 

Firstly, mages were oppressed. Some were raped and sexually abused, in multiple Circles. Under Meredith's command mages were made Tranquil as a punishment, including some who were Harrowed. Cole's whole backstory is about a mage who was left to starve to death in a cell by the templars. After Kirkwall one of the Circles, I think the Rivaini one, was annulled.

 

Even some of the day to day working of the Circle is horrific. Mages couldn't have spouses or children. The Harrowing ritual is just tossing untrained kids to demons and hoping they survive. You don't have to be Anders to notice that mages have legitimate grievances.

 

Secondly, mages integrated into society could have massive benefits for the public. Magical healers are literally centuries ahead of non-magical ones in terms of efficacy. In ancient and modern Tevinter magic was and is a major part of architecture and construction, with highways and buildings built to last thanks to magic.

 

Thirdly, of course systems can persist for nine centuries without majority support. That's because the societies in question are monarchies/theocracies; they don't have to pay any attention to people who aren't powerful nobles.

[Big I]

But the Chantry is already tolerant of non-humans. Any who want to worship the Maker are free to do so. There was even talk of an exalted march on Orzammar because Brother Burkel was murdered in a peaceful protest. All men are the work of their Maker's hand, from the lowest slave to the highest king. City elves are also Andrastian. And both Inquisition and JoH prove that some Dalish converted to Andrasteism.

 

It takes Leliana as Divine to open the priesthood up to non-humans; official doctrine prior to that is that non-humans are "further from the Maker", despite elves being a part of Andraste's army. The Canticle of Shartan is dissonant solely because it clashes with the rationale for the Exalted March on the Dales. Ameridan's ethnicity and that of his lover were expunged from history. In short, the Chantry has played an active part in the segregation and oppression of non-humans.

[Akkos]

Firstly, mages were oppressed. Some were raped and sexually abused, in multiple Circles. Under Meredith's command mages were made Tranquil as a punishment, including some who were Harrowed. Cole's whole backstory is about a mage who was left to starve to death in a cell by the templars. After Kirkwall one of the Circles, I think the Rivaini one, was annulled.

 

LOL seriously!!!!!!!!!!!!! This is funny because most of you are "highly vocal" about this throughout this topic, Is mages being "sexually assaulted"  the only abuses you detected that Templars did to the mages in most circles? ..  YOU MUST BE KIDDING ME.. That means Wynne, Bethany and Vivienne were definetely raped too and they must be enjoying it.. Unless you recall Karl, Anders, Fiona, Adrian, Orsino, Irving were severly abused aswell.  I'd like to know how each of them were abused exactly...   Don't tell me rubbish about Orsino's voice not heard when he is had more mental problem that any mage in Kirkwall Circle.. "Hints - From WOT2."

 

Most of these mages, if they were made tranquil it was because of acceptable reasons, at least for me. Karl's association with an apostate Anders, now refugee in the underground in Kirkwall at that moment is a really nice reason to be made tranquil.  You saw what happened to Pharmond in Adamant Fortress.... And he was already tranquil... No no..  Every tranquil you know they can't afford their magic or they are useless or extremely dangerous for their magic.. Sounds simple enough AND I SUPPORT THAT AS WELL.

 

The Rivanni Circle was annulled because mages there they were been used by their families (common folks) to contact with spirits and dead people. To me and as a Templar, that's not what mages were trained to do. Apostate Seers definetely would do that.. Anyway the Circle of Dairsmund deserved it's annulment.

 

Even some of the day to day working of the Circle is horrific. Mages couldn't have spouses or children. The Harrowing ritual is just tossing untrained kids to demons and hoping they survive. You don't have to be Anders to notice that mages have legitimate grievances.

 

Now this is interesting as well. So you are saying mages can't have spouses or children but they were sexually raped or stuff, why do they need children if they are being raped?.....  Isn't this bit contradicting your initial statement, dear?

 

So you expect mages to learn about magic from "reading books alone"?, Casting spells directly from the fade without even going into the fade?.    Sweetheart, the only way to learn about how to use magic from the fade is facing the fade directly, PERIOD.  If you are a healer, you are summoning spirits from the fade into the world. If you are not useful, you should be made tranquil- "cut off straight from the fade".  Solas quest in DAI demostrate this as well. Stupid mages on their own summoning a spirit to heal and turned it into pride demon. I let Solas kill them because they will do it again.

 

 

Secondly, mages integrated into society could have massive benefits for the public. Magical healers are literally centuries ahead of non-magical ones in terms of efficacy. In ancient and modern Tevinter magic was and is a major part of architecture and construction, with highways and buildings built to last thanks to magic.

 

Now this I don't support. I prefer the circle mages, like they have always been to be in charge of that and still belong to the circle alone, even without the chantry..  Or the hidden witches to do they witchcraft in secret.. Like it has always been without destroying the image of a trained circle mage.

 

 

FINAL NOTE - Chantry I don't support as well, but If I can use the chantry to advance my goals, I will definetely use it without sacrificing myself entirely to that religion. This is what I love about my dark-skin color ice queen, Vivienne, Madame de fer.

[Big I]

-snip-

 

Were all mages sexually assaulted? Of course not. That makes it no less horriftying that many were, and more horrifying still that these weren't isolated incidients but part of a system where it was permissable. If you're looking for in game proof, Alain in the Gallows in DA2 has dialogue about a templar abusing him, and in DA2 Act 2 the templar in Ander's sidequest tells a runaway apprentice he's going to make her Tranquil and force her to have sex with him. An unnamed Tranquil in the Gallows also has dialogue about templars visiting her room at night.

 

As for children, any children a mage had was taken away by the Chantry. This was established in DA:O and the novel Asunder as the reason Wynne, a DA:O companion, wasn't allowed to raise her son Rhys, a character from the novel.

 

Tranquility is only supposed to be used if a mage is deemed unfit to attempt the Harrowing or if they ask for it. That's it. Any other use goes against the Chantry's own rules. It is a fate so bad that Karl and Pharmond would both rather die than be Tranquil. Annulment is unjust because it involves killing everyone in a Circle regardless of guilt or circumstance. Including children.

 

The Harrowing is not a teaching tool. It's a test of survival. The Dalish, amongst many other groups, do not Harrow their mages and experience no greater rates of possession than the Circle. It's cruel and counter-productive, because apprentices aren't even trained in resisting or fighting demons before they're Harrowed.

 

It's unclear if you support mages being allowed to do more for the public or not. Either way their usefulness cannot be denied, in healing and many other areas. The problem is that the Chantry kept most mages imprisoned in the Circles.

 

All of this shows that the system of Circles was an unjust one that abused mages and squandered their talents.

 

Finally, you seem to think Rivanni is the correct term for things relating to the country of Rivain. It's not. The correct term is Rivaini, which is why it's Varric's nickname for Isabella.

[Akkos]

 

 

Hmm, so most of your conclusions about mages being abused are from DA2, Oh whatever. For a moment when you said mages were been abused, I thought you meant all mages were been abused "in the same way" you stated. Your point is kinda meh. It's something I already know about.

 

About the children; there are reasons for children to be taken away from mages still... And it's not a grave one at all. Because you can't imagine two parent mage/templar in the circle taking care of a child when they have other stuff to worry about. So if Wynne had her child... and stayed with it, the invents in the circle who make both suffer as well.

 

About the chantry putting mages in prison;  One thing is what the chantry wants. The other is what most mages need. That's all i can say about this.

Not all mages want to be free of the circle. A fact you'll never understand.

 

Tranquility method is solved because you agree with me...  Those mage made tranquil were deemed unfit. So basically what I said.

 

The harrowing is indeed a test of survival. But has nothing to do with the dalish's or avvar's because their methods is entirely different and most dangerous as well. You can't deny that. Most of the keepers end up like Marethari.

 

I don't support mages to be allowed outside without permission.

 

The circle is still needed or something that looks like the circle. Your statements about mages abused are from what you saw on DA2, which was a story told from a character.

 

I don't really care if you correct me. I don't google thing. At least you know I was taking about "rivaini"... If that's what you think it's the correct term.

[Nerevar-as]

And when they came for you there was nobody left to defend you.

Really, is a mixed teaching organization so hard to come by? Trustworthy mages and templars acting in unison at schools with outside supervision (as in not from the school). Only mages results in Tevinter, the foxes watching the hens, or however it's said in english. Only templars mostly ends up like the Standford prison experiment. Don't say it'll be easy, but they haven't even tried. And surprise inspections to mages living outside to ensure they aren't into forbidden experiments. They can have the same rights as anybody else, but also accept that their power requires some supervision.

BTW, Marethari chose to become possessed as she loved Merrill more than her own life, and knew she'd left herself possessed to restore the Eluvian. It wasn't because of incompetence. Also, both women knew people strong enough to deal with the demon would be around to kill it.

[Cha0sEff3ct]

The circles are needed at least for now.

 

Abuse, rape and torture exist outside the circle regardless so you can't blame that solely on circles. Circles that have instances of this are broken circles without their systems in check and have become corrupt. At their best, circles take in and foster a mage's talent. I'll repeat this again, as Vivienne mentioned, young mages are found(worst case scenarios) when a young girl has a bad dream and then sets her house on fire or a little boy has a fight with his mother and accidentally tears her to shreds with magic out of anger. Or they take in mages from Dalish clans that were exiled to fend for themselves like Minaeve. Templars are needed to protect them from themselves until they learn to control their gifts.

 

Also there is no mention of schools of magic aside from circles, how do would be mages even learn to use their gift? In Thedas as I understand there is no way to tell if your child or anyone for that matter possess the gift of magic and it cannot be learned or taught naturally... yet. There are no fun magical schools of Hogwarts. Had history gone down a different path with strong mages founding a school. there could've been. But no instead the circles stemmed from the chaos of the Divine age where they had to deal with Old God cults, demons and abominations. Couple that with the Inquisition and the Chantry and you set in motion a Holy Calling to do The Maker's will effectively creating a witch hunt on all mages. From this the Nevarran accord was developed to create a martial arm of the chantry, The Templar Order, as well as the Circles of Magi where Mages can be watched and the Templars could oversee them. 

 

People keep thinking that Vivienne returns the circles to prisons we aren't sure of anything except that the epilogue states that Mages quickly rise up in the circle and have more freedom and responsibility than ever before. For all we know through her, Academies of Magic can develop now that Mages can utilize the circles in a better way and regain the trust of the people. There can be learned Mages who can teach the youth and foster the future mages of Thedas. Given the history of Thedas, it is not feasible to disband the circles and declare all mages free without any institution of some sort they can turn to. If you sided with the Mages, Fiona will create a free mage college of enchanters but I don't see her as a strong leader and without the institutions and resources of the Chantry how will they even sustain themselves. Maybe she'll start a mom and pop type of organization in some cabin in the woods that can grow but I doubt it. It will take years for that to even take root.

 

Also Vivienne does not explicitly talk about other races in relation to the circles and chantries. Who says she does not invite them in? She states that she was a great admirer of Justinia and had she lived she could unite the disparate cultures of Thedas. I think Vivienne would be no different.

 

Divine Vivtoria all the way!

 

 

 

FINAL NOTE - Chantry I don't support as well, but If I can use the chantry to advance my goals, I will definetely use it without sacrificing myself entirely to that religion. This is what I love about my dark-skin color ice queen, Vivienne, Madame de fer.

 

This! I see Vivi as having this mentality.

[berelinde]

Most people don't like Vivienne fall into two categories: They think she's a (swear), or their argument is "magez shld be teh freez!"

Mocking aside, you're objectively wrong.

 

Most people who don't like Vivienne simply don't like Vivienne. Taste is a personal thing, and people like what they like. I am totally in your sarcastically named "magez shld be teh freez!" camp, but I like Vivienne very much. I like her because I enjoy complex, well-written characters. I don't need to share their agenda to appreciate them for what they are.

[andy6915]

Mocking aside, you're objectively wrong.
 
Most people who don't like Vivienne simply don't like Vivienne. Taste is a personal thing, and people like what they like. I am totally in your sarcastically named "magez shld be teh freez!" camp, but I like Vivienne very much. I like her because I enjoy complex, well-written characters. I don't need to share their agenda to appreciate them for what they are.

 
I have a counter example that agrees with you. I'm a "magez shld be teh freez" too... And I like Fenris. So I too can like someone while disagreeing with them about mages.
 
(this is to who you quoted, not to you, berelinde.)
 
And Vivienne's skin color is irrelevant to me, I wouldn't like her any more if she was a pale, white skinned, blond haired and blued eyed person. I dislike her because of her personality of thinking she's better than everyone else while being obvious about it and being a hypocrite in that she thinks mages are dangerous and need watched by templars if you side with the mages but would skoff if I assigned a templar to be near her at all times in case she became possessed (she wants rules, but doesn't want the rules to apply to her). In short, I dislike her for the same reasons Sera does. Does Sera think people with dark skin are [swear starting with "n"]? I don't think so.

[Jackums]

There is evidence of this. During "In your Heart Shall Burn" she will suggest basically ignoring the townspeople and head straight for the Chantry. So you think she's just a cold hearted b*tch, just ignoring others for the sake of our own safety. But when you save everyone anyway... "Vivienne approves" flashes on the screen. So she acted like she didn't care, but in reality she really is glad that you took the time and effort to save everyone you could.

 

What a saint.

 

"I won't act to help, and will actively oppose helping, someone getting brutally beaten in front of me, but when someone else comes along and helps them despite my advice, I'll be pleased, and I'll have my shrewd facade and pride in tact. I am such a good person. #tear"

 

(Vivienne is one of my favorite characters in terms of writing, but... lol)
 

[berelinde]

Yeah, about the only universal truth when it comes to opinions and preferences is that any statement that begins "People who <hold this opinion> are <something>" will be categorically false. But some people (not everyone, obviously) feel the need to lump everyone who believes a thing into one group. I suppose it's understandable. Through millennia of human existence, people have been unified (and divided) by an us/them mentality.

 

That's one of the reasons Vivienne is interesting to me as a character. She actively rejects the most obvious commonality she has with the rebel mages in favor of her "long game." If she had joined the rebels, her strength of character would have been a huge asset, but she had her eye on a different goal. It's interesting to watch her plans play out.

[Aren]

I utterly despise  manipulators  who try to come close to my protagonists because they are the "winning horses",in DA sadly i have to deal with plenty of them.

[berelinde]

I utterly despise  manipulators  who try to come close to my protagonists because they are the "winning horses",in DA sadly i have to deal with plenty of them.

Yup, that's what happens when you're at the top. Sycophants will snuggle up to increase the odds that your fame will rub off on them, and just about everyone else will try to pull you down.

 

It's kind of a pity we didn't get too many of the latter in the game. Dodging the snares of those bent on ruining you could have been fun. You know, that jealous rival who says what you want to hear to get into your confidence only to throw you under the bus when it's convenient for them to do so. I guess they didn't want to make it too much like life.

[Malleficae]

I'm probably one of the very few people who like Vivi and templars. Also, I think people who don't are blind thugs. Do any of you remeber why Vivienne wants circles and why templars exist? No? Oh, sure, let's pretends mages can't become danger. Not like they can manipulate minds, give their bodies to chaos-seeking demons and burn village without training. What Circles do? They train mages. What templars do? They make sure mages are safe from themselves and other people are safe. What a bad guys! You know why mages are abused? Because, like other people, most of them is stupid and they won't fight UNITS that hurt them but they will fight something nonmaterial like organization of circles or templars.

 

My Vivi is divine. If Thedas might somehow notice that mages are people, show them mage as a human. I'm all about open Circles (templars watching over mages in cities, not one high building) but I'm bored with "FREE DA MAGEZZZ!!!!11!". Mages are humen but not regular human beings. They need special treating. Also, I think tranquility is necessary. Do you want to kill everybody who felt into control of demon? Sure, go for it. But I won't. What if reversing ritual gives you back feelings but takes away magic? People who can't control their magic could be safe without dying and killing other people.

 

Vivienne is protective woman with huge heart. She doesn't show that because she is smart enough to understand that people would use it against her. Cole knows that (read banters). She is my first favourite character, Morrigan is second. Hope BioWare will give us more such magneficent personalities.

[DuskWanderer]

It's true, mages are not like normal people. We see that in literally every story of mages, they learn about their powers in a violent fashion, and they are at constant risk to be possessed by demons, who go on killing sprees. Acknowledging that is not a crime.

 

Further, look what the mages did with freedom. They went on killing sprees, joined the Venatori, and worse. At least the templars were either tricked or forced on red lyrium. 

[HK-90210]

Firstly, mages were oppressed. Some were raped and sexually abused, in multiple Circles.

 

Do you REALLY think that if mages were allowed to roam free they wouldn't commit rape and sexual assault aggainst the common people? Look at what Denarius did(or was implied to have done) to Fenris. With their powers, the average man or woman has no defense if a mage wants them in such a way. At least in the Circle system the templars, if lead by dutiful Knight-Commander and supported by a strong First Enchanter, there are ways to protect the mages. If mages roam free, however, there is no such protection for the commonfolk.

 

Under Meredith's command mages were made Tranquil as a punishment, including some who were Harrowed. Cole's whole backstory is about a mage who was left to starve to death in a cell by the templars. After Kirkwall one of the Circles, I think the Rivaini one, was annulled

 

If a system is run by bad people, it doesn't mean the system itself is bad. One tyrannic Knight-Commander and a few templars that failed in their duty does not mean that the whole system is without merit. That's like saying one bad president/prime minister means the entire government needs to be torn down.

 

Even some of the day to day working of the Circle is horrific. Mages couldn't have spouses or children.

 

I agree with you on mages having spouses and children. It's one of the biggest failures of the Circle system, IMO. Denying the chance of family to mages leaves them unconnected to the world. And a person who feels detached from society and other people is a dangerous person to have power.

 

 

The Harrowing ritual is just tossing untrained kids to demons and hoping they survive. You don't have to be Anders to notice that mages have legitimate grievances.

 

Mages undertaking their Harrowing are many things. Nervous, scared, untested and bewildered. But they are not untrained. You don't go through your Harrowing unless your First Enchanter thinks you're ready. You've been trained since your powers manifested on how to control both them and yourself. You've been told, night and day, that demons are dangerous and want nothing more than to trick you into giving them what they want. If a mage is going through their Harrowing, it means they are ready for it. That most mages seem to pass their Harrowing is a testament to their training. That some fail is a testament that the Harrowing is an absolutely necesary trial if a mage is to be trusted.

 

Secondly, mages integrated into society could have massive benefits for the public. Magical healers are literally centuries ahead of non-magical ones in terms of efficacy.

 

Considering that healers work and operate  in society through the Circle system already, this point is not in favor of abolishment of the Circle system.

 

In ancient and modern Tevinter magic was and is a major part of architecture and construction, with highways and buildings built to last thanks to magic.

 

And slaves. Don't forget the slaves.

 

 

Thirdly, of course systems can persist for nine centuries without majority support. That's because the societies in question are monarchies/theocracies; they don't have to pay any attention to people who aren't powerful nobles.

 

The Circle System encompasses all of Southern Thedas. It crosses many cultural and geographic boundaries. It is based on the shared faith of millions. if the people REALLY didn't agree with the Circle system, there would have been some kind of movement to free them before now. Some ruler looking for power would have freed his Cirlce mages. Some peasant mob would have stormed the Chantry and demanded that mages be free.

 

Instead, it's clear that most people in Southern Thedas agreed with what the Chantry says: Mages are dangerous, and we need some kind of system to keep watch over them. The Circle is it. The commonfolk have good reason to fear what mages can do. The Chantry warns them of this, and for good reason. Southern Thedas may not be a democracy, but there are some things that the vast majority of the commoners, nobles and church could all agree on. The necessity of the Circle was one of them.

[Vilio1]

I don't hate her solely because of her views. Cassandra and Cullen are two of my favorite characters in the game and they're both "pro-chantry"/"pro-circle". It's more that Vivienne shows a huge lack of empathy, and generally comes off as a massive hypocrite. Railroading all the conversations with her so that she always "wins" is not exactly the sign of quality writing either.

[Dai Grepher]

Firstly, mages were oppressed. Some were raped and sexually abused, in multiple Circles. Under Meredith's command mages were made Tranquil as a punishment, including some who were Harrowed. Cole's whole backstory is about a mage who was left to starve to death in a cell by the templars. After Kirkwall one of the Circles, I think the Rivaini one, was annulled.

 

Even some of the day to day working of the Circle is horrific. Mages couldn't have spouses or children. The Harrowing ritual is just tossing untrained kids to demons and hoping they survive. You don't have to be Anders to notice that mages have legitimate grievances.

 

Secondly, mages integrated into society could have massive benefits for the public. Magical healers are literally centuries ahead of non-magical ones in terms of efficacy. In ancient and modern Tevinter magic was and is a major part of architecture and construction, with highways and buildings built to last thanks to magic.

 

Thirdly, of course systems can persist for nine centuries without majority support. That's because the societies in question are monarchies/theocracies; they don't have to pay any attention to people who aren't powerful nobles.

 

A bit deceptive. Rapes, beatings, and such happen everywhere. That doesn't condemn the legal system that commonly prevents it. The Circles always outlawed such crimes. Equally deceptive is "under Meredith's command". Anders confirms that Meredith actually denied the suggestion that mages be made tranquil as punishment. That one templar was acting on his own.

 

Cole was left in that cell, and at least one of those templars didn't want to do it. So I would say that most templars are good, and there are a significant number of bad ones that ruin the whole bunch. This is cause for reform, not abolition.
 

Tevinter structures were built by sacrificing slaves to power blood magic.

 

I don't see what this has to do with Vivienne, who institutes reforms as Divine so that mages see an increase in freedoms and privileges.