437 réponses à ce sujet

[Darkstarr11]

Wow, I missed quite a bit.  Interesting...I never thought this discussion would get this far.  Cool.  A nice lively debate is always fun.  Especially when we don't take it personally.  And if you can show me where I'm wrong, I'll admit it.  I may not agree, but I'll respect your opinion even if I don't.  

 

For the record, I do think Viv is well written.  Just because I don't agree with her politics, and don't trust her on whit, doesn't mean I don't think she isn't well written.

 

Now, let's see...

 

Look, mages AREN'T like everyone else.  Yes, they have incredible powers.  Does this mean slavery or imprisonment is the answer?  No.  Training, teaching, and vigilance is.  These are things Vivienne doesn't support.  At Redcliffe, she supports conscripting the mages.  Press ganging them into service.  Imprisonment.  Enslavement.  By the way, note that she herself walks free.  At no point does she attempt to join her fellow mages.  She stands above them.  She settles into Skyhold near the seat of power, watching over it.  If you open up a tower for the mages, she doesn't go there.  If you side with the mages, she doesn't join them.  She sits apart.  

 

I'm not going to say that mages AREN'T dangerous.  EVERYONE agrees that they are.  However, as it has been noted, MANY come from some pretty traumatic backgrounds.  Individuals suffering from trauma, abuse, PTSD and the like are going to react poorly when threatened.  The Circles, in their current form, DO NOT solve the problem.  They exacerbate it.  Someone who feels that their back is against the wall, and has nothing to lose IS going to lash out.  You take away hope, and you bring them down to the most basic of emotions.  Flight, flight or stay.  Guess what?  Two of those are NOT going to end well.  In fact, the third, stay...probably won't end well for the mage, when you think about it.

 

Vivienne doesn't solve the problem.  She represents it.  Again, I foresee the Templars resenting the leash she puts on them, and eventually breaking free of it.  The epilogues mean little.  I remember the Dalish getting their own land in Ferelden.  Shianni becoming a Bann.  Um...wait, did it?  We have no idea.  Some of the epilogues were speculation at best.  If THEY an speculate, I can certainly indulge in such.  This doesn't mean the other choices for Divine are better.  Sure, Leliana has good intentions...well, we know about those.  Cassandra isn't going to change much...but she dedicates to a noble purpose.  Yet even SHE states earlier that even the best of things can go awry.  

 

I don't trust politicians.  Not Howe, not Eamon (and I liked Eamon), and not Anora.  Certainly not Viv.  Not even a little.  Now, this sounds cold.  Probably is, but I have a few observations to make.  Maybe this will make sense.

 

First, Vivienne openly states that she wants to confront her enemy.  Right after you meet her.  She does not, and will not be swept aside for others to decide her fate.  She's afraid of being of no consequence, of having no power of her own destiny.  She's MOCKED in the Fade, and it rattles her.  Extremely so.  Dorian is put off, Varric is angered, and Cassandra basically tells it to get bent.  Blackwell, Sera, and Vivienne don't take it well.  Each is running from something.  We know about Blackwall.  Sera is insecure, but if you have Cole in your group, he reveals that Vivienne's Harrowing was quite literally that.  You can infer that she was thrown into a horrible situation and it hurt her, bad.  She wasn't about to let it happen again.  She MADE herself into the cold, ruthless politician that she is because life told her if she didn't...she'd be nothing.  Crushed, broken, or Tranquil.  She is WHO she is because that's what it took to survive.  

 

I don't hate her for that.  Even the best of Circles had to be hard on a mage.  Add to that, mages are often taken from their parents at a YOUNG age.  Can you imagine being RIPPED from the only place you knew?  Taken away to live with complete strangers?  Some, like Minaeve, actually needed it.  She was going to be killed.  Same with Wynne.  Other mages, not so much.  In DAII there was a mage who was torn from his WIFE.  Dragged out in chains.  Can you imagine what that would do to a person?  Scared, and unable to trust?  

 

Then give them the power to destroy those who hurt them.  

 

Viv COULD have gone that route.  She didn't.  As evil as I think she can be, she displays a LOT of self control.  Everything she does is calculated.  She's smart.  She's beautiful...and she knows it.  Hooking up with the Marquis was a BRILLIANT political move.  This SHOUDN'T dismiss the fact that she was smitten.  You know, she could have been handed off to a bunch of soldiers as a party favor.  Templars like Ser Alrik would have certainly made excuses for someone like her.  Having the Marquis as a patron protected her.  Again, I don't blame her for that.  Sometimes, you do what you have to.  Surviving is something people have gotten good at for a reason.

 

This makes her a very complicated, very HUMAN character.  Yes, she looks out for number one.  Vivienne first, mages second.  She does this under a veneer of championing her peoples causes, but she does it for herself.  And everyone at one time or another, has done that.  Helping the mages helps HER.  She can't be Grand Enchanter (or Divine) if she has no supporters.  She latches on to the Herald (if she even believes that they ARE the Herald) because it gets her closer to the seat of power.  Celene is under Morrigan's sway.  Not an option anymore.  But the Herald IS.  Especially a young mage (note how she is quick to inquire as to a mage's background...such as noting familiarity with the human Mages potential mentor), who she can potentially mold into something usable.  Yet, she's NOT so unscrupulous as to attempt to seduce them.  She IS in love.  She HAS standards.  In MANY ways (and again, I stated before that I don't trust her, but this is pretty brilliant) she is ACTIVELY prepping you for Orlais.  She's getting you ready for the Game.  Listen to her conversations.  Watch how she leads conversations.  Whatever we might think of her, she DOES try to prepare a mage for life at court.  She DOES mentor the mage class.  Trust or not, she IS an ally in that respect.  

 

Also, note how she reacts to you helping her.  I don't think she's faking that.  Being in the Game so long, she's probably shocked at any inkling of altruism.  I DON'T think she talks up the Inquisitor to Bastien's relatives JUST to score political points.  If you really help her, without screwing her over, you may be one of the only true honest friends she's had in a long time.  Bet that serves as a bit of mind screw for her.  In fact, you might actually (if you make her Divine) be helping her become so herself.  AND she seems very proud of you if you choose Knight Enchanter, doesn't she?

 

Yes, LOTS of speculation.

 

I know, I'm starting to ramble.  I'm tired.  To sum up?  

 

I don't trust her or her plans.  YET...she is a VERY valuable ally.  I think she'd throw mages under the wagon in a second, and the Inquisitor too (at least early in the game), but she's no more pure evil than Flemeth or Morrigan.  Actually, she's hotter than Flemeth.  And Morrigan is either taken, or not interested.  She's a scheming, ruthless political snake that could turn on you in a heartbeat...but she's YOUR ruthless political snake.  

 

I guess...I love to hate her.  I'm GLAD that she's in the game.  Even if I don't agree with her, and don't trust her.

[Dai Grepher]

It takes Leliana as Divine to open the priesthood up to non-humans; official doctrine prior to that is that non-humans are "further from the Maker", despite elves being a part of Andraste's army. The Canticle of Shartan is dissonant solely because it clashes with the rationale for the Exalted March on the Dales. Ameridan's ethnicity and that of his lover were expunged from history. In short, the Chantry has played an active part in the segregation and oppression of non-humans.

 

Leliana wasn't talking about the priesthood. She was talking about the Chantry and the faith itself. But Leliana was deluded. The Chantry has always been open to all races. Burkel is proof of that. She points to the Lothering Chantry as the model, but Lothering was no different from the other Chantries.

 

Just because some officials removed some verses from the canon texts doesn't mean the Chantry itself is against other races. It just means they didn't want scripture to conflict with something that the Chantry HAD to do.

 

Expunged from history, or lost to history?
 

[Dai Grepher]

Tranquility is only supposed to be used if a mage is deemed unfit to attempt the Harrowing or if they ask for it. That's it. Any other use goes against the Chantry's own rules. It is a fate so bad that Karl and Pharmond would both rather die than be Tranquil. Annulment is unjust because it involves killing everyone in a Circle regardless of guilt or circumstance. Including children.

 

No, tranquility is to prevent mages from being possessed if they show a lack of ability to resist demons. It can also be used to cut mages off from magic if they prove themselves dangerous with that magic. Erimond is a prime candidate for tranquility. He couldn't resist summoning demons, was fine with using blood magic, and was fine with misusing magic to harm and murder people. We also learn that it's used to make Seekers what they are.
 

[Darkstarr11]

No, tranquility is to prevent mages from being possessed if they show a lack of ability to resist demons. It can also be used to cut mages off from magic if they prove themselves dangerous with that magic. Erimond is a prime candidate for tranquility. He couldn't resist summoning demons, was fine with using blood magic, and was fine with misusing magic to harm and murder people. We also learn that it's used to make Seekers what they are.
 

 

I solved Erimond's issues with demons with a single stroke.  Though, that might have been more trying to eliminate his smugness than worries about demons...I don't remember Viv disagreeing with that one.  Doesn't she disagree with Tranquility?  I can't remember...

[Malleficae]

I solved Erimond's issues with demons with a single stroke.  Though, that might have been more trying to eliminate his smugness than worries about demons...I don't remember Viv disagreeing with that one.  Doesn't she disagree with Tranquility?  I can't remember...

 

She is terrified when she finds out what they've done with tranquils in Redcliffe, that's all I've remember.

 

Look, mages AREN'T like everyone else.  Yes, they have incredible powers.  Does this mean slavery or imprisonment is the answer?  No.  Training, teaching, and vigilance is.  These are things Vivienne doesn't support.  At Redcliffe, she supports conscripting the mages.  Press ganging them into service.  Imprisonment.  Enslavement.  By the way, note that she herself walks free.  At no point does she attempt to join her fellow mages.  She stands above them.  She settles into Skyhold near the seat of power, watching over it.  If you open up a tower for the mages, she doesn't go there.  If you side with the mages, she doesn't join them.  She sits apart.  

 

She isn't against all mages. She helps you to make one mage join Inquisition in Hinterlands. She is against mages that killed people and pretended they did it to become free. Why she would join people that did all this? Whole time she was doing opposite - showing that some mages still want to work with non-magic people and leaving future for mages who wanted to do the same. You think any mage could get close to Orlais if Vivienne wasn't there? I'm sure the answer is no.

 

 

I'm not going to say that mages AREN'T dangerous.  EVERYONE agrees that they are.  However, as it has been noted, MANY come from some pretty traumatic backgrounds.  Individuals suffering from trauma, abuse, PTSD and the like are going to react poorly when threatened.  The Circles, in their current form, DO NOT solve the problem.  They exacerbate it.  Someone who feels that their back is against the wall, and has nothing to lose IS going to lash out.  You take away hope, and you bring them down to the most basic of emotions.  Flight, flight or stay.  Guess what?  Two of those are NOT going to end well.  In fact, the third, stay...probably won't end well for the mage, when you think about it.

 

Because they are too stupid to understand that was done to make people safe. I bet that mage who accidently killed his wife because of no training would be happy about it. It wouldn't happend? It certainly would. More - he probably would kill whole village because of becoming an abomination. Circles are mental hospitals. Mages are like mentally ill people - they can hurt themselves and everyone around so they need asylum, place to make everything right.

 

 

She MADE herself into the cold, ruthless politician that she is because life told her if she didn't...she'd be nothing.  Crushed, broken, or Tranquil.  She is WHO she is because that's what it took to survive.

 

• Vivienne: You are no longer a danger of being bound by enemies of the Inquisition, demon?
• Cole: Yes. I am no danger now.
• Vivienne: No more than you were before.
• Cole: You worried for me.
• Vivienne: I was concerned about you, demon.
• Vivienne: You have grown adept at killing. If you cannot be gone, I would prefer you remain pointed at the enemy.
• Cole: No. You were worried. The part of you that forgets I'm me cared. You want it to go away.
• Cole: You think caring makes you weak. Don't worry. I won't tell anyone.

She didn't and Cole knows it.

[Dai Grepher]

I solved Erimond's issues with demons with a single stroke.  Though, that might have been more trying to eliminate his smugness than worries about demons...I don't remember Viv disagreeing with that one.  Doesn't she disagree with Tranquility?  I can't remember...

 

She approves. Perhaps greatly. But she definitely approves.
 

[Dabrikishaw]

I don't hate her solely because of her views. Cassandra and Cullen are two of my favorite characters in the game and they're both "pro-chantry"/"pro-circle". It's more that Vivienne shows a huge lack of empathy, and generally comes off as a massive hypocrite. Railroading all the conversations with her so that she always "wins" is not exactly the sign of quality writing either.

That's the same with me. I've no issue liking pro-Circle Tower characters like Wynne/pro-current Chantry characters like Cassandra/pro-Templar characters like Cullen.

 

Vivienne is just such a snake about everything I can't find it in me to care for the why. I just don't care for her.

[Dai Grepher]

Do the people who dislike Vivienne for her lack of empathy also dislike Sera for the same reason? She dislikes mages too, and also thinks they should be locked away with their scary magic.

[DuskWanderer]

Do the people who dislike Vivienne for her lack of empathy also dislike Sera for the same reason? She dislikes mages too, and also thinks they should be locked away with their scary magic.

 

People dislike Sera because she doesn't support mage freedom, yes. No one hates on the mages who rampage and kill others, though. 

[Dabrikishaw]

Do the people who dislike Vivienne for her lack of empathy also dislike Sera for the same reason? She dislikes mages too, and also thinks they should be locked away with their scary magic.

I dislike Sera for her lack of empathy towards anything outside her personally approved categories. The common assumption is that liking one means you dislike the other but Sera and Vivienne are 2 sides on an unlikabliity coin for me.

[SgtSteel91]

I think the main problem I had with Vivienne was that in my main game with the way I played, Allied Mages/Allied Wardens/Celene and Briala reconciled/Gave Morrigan the Well/Supported Leliana for Divine, I didn't think there was enough opportunities in the game to make up for the approval loss and keep her at the friend zone compared to Cassandra and her Seeker Targets, Blackwall and the Grey Warden Artifacts, or Iron Bull and killing Venatori/Dragons. And if you're not Vivienne's friend, then you're her enemy, especially with the choices I made, and I didn't want to deal with that. So I ended up just not going to her party and never meeting her.

[Reznore57]

I think the main problem I had with Vivienne was that in my main game with the way I played, Allied Mages/Allied Wardens/Celene and Briala reconciled/Gave Morrigan the Well/Supported Leliana for Divine, I didn't think there was enough opportunities in the game to make up for the approval loss compared to Cassandra and her Seeker Targets, Blackwall and the Grey Warden Artifacts, or Iron Bull and killing Venatori/Dragons. And if you're not Vivienne's friend, then you're her enemy, especially with the choices I made, and I didn't want to deal with that. So I ended up just not going to her party and never meeting her.

 

I almost done everything the same except supporting Leliana and I was friend with Vivienne.

Although my Inquisitor was not exactly a mage supporter , more a "I want order back" kind of guy.

So he freed the mages but was fine with the idea of them getting back in circles later (he just didn"t want to deal with that mess ) etc...

You can totally smooth talk Vivienne into liking you and then do what you feel like.

[Dabrikishaw]

I almost done everything the same except supporting Leliana and I was friend with Vivienne.

Although my Inquisitor was not exactly a mage supporter , more a "I want order back" kind of guy.

So he freed the mages but was fine with the idea of them getting back in circles later (he just didn"t want to deal with that mess ) etc...

You can totally smooth talk Vivienne into liking you and then do what you feel like.

Yeah, getting Vivienne's approval high enough to be her friend takes work when you ally with Mages and Grey Wardens but I've done it twice in the past.

[Malleficae]

My first game was supporting mages, wardens and Cole and she was my friend. I would say more, I never managed to be her enemy and I don't have any idea how people do this. Same goes for every other companion - even when I don't liked Sera at first she was my friend because if you don't act like an ass, it's easy to make people friendly. In real life as well. And I'm not even people kind of human. :/

[Dabrikishaw]

I never have to seriously agree with Vivienne. Even if I ally with the mages it's possible to get +35 approval from her before Skyhold by picking the right dialogue choices. After that it's pretty easy to keep her happy if I want.

[ComedicSociopathy]

Vivienne makes a few decent points about the dangers of magic and the need for a responsible and socially accountable institution to educate mages about their abilities...

 

Unfortunately, she's such a whole self-important, hypocritical, unemphatic and flat out manipulative b*tch that a lot of her points ultimately come off as self-serving propaganda meant to justify a status quo that serves her own needs and ambitions. Cullen, Cassandra, Wynne and even Sera of all people are far better at actually swaying me into buying into a pro-Circle stance. 

[Malleficae]

Vivienne makes a few decent points about the dangers of magic and the need for a responsible and socially accountable institution to educate mages about their abilities...

 

Unfortunately, she's such a whole self-important, hypocritical, unemphatic and flat out manipulative b*tch that a lot of her points ultimately come off as self-serving propaganda meant to justify a status quo that serves her own needs and ambitions. Cullen, Cassandra, Wynne and even Sera of all people are far better at actually swaying me into buying into a pro-Circle stance. 

 

How is she hypocritical and unemphatic? She is concerned about tranquils, Cole, Inquisitor and other memebers of Inquisition. Also, don't know her hypocrycy. :c

[teh DRUMPf!!]

I almost done everything the same except supporting Leliana and I was friend with Vivienne.

Although my Inquisitor was not exactly a mage supporter , more a "I want order back" kind of guy.

So he freed the mages but was fine with the idea of them getting back in circles later (he just didn"t want to deal with that mess ) etc...

You can totally smooth talk Vivienne into liking you and then do what you feel like.

 

Yeah, it's really not that hard. Vivienne only slightly disapproves of the Wardens, for one. You can dress a pro-mage agenda with statements she approves of with things like "This chaos helps no one," "Mages should be in the Chantry," "A mage will lead us all" (3 Greatly-Approves with her right there). And then you have the Circle Tomes fetch-quest. And then you have that string of Truth or Dare war-table missions (Approves of every completion).

 

No offense, but you need a dire lack of tact and outside-awareness to be in bad standing with Vivienne (much less crisis-point). In other words, you are a n00b.

 

In fact, do take offense.

[ComedicSociopathy]

How is she hypocritical and unemphatic? She is concerned about tranquils, Cole, Inquisitor and other memebers of Inquisition. Also, don't know her hypocrycy. :c

 

She believes that as a mage she's a danger to everyone and needs to be watched by others (Templars) to ensure that she doesn't turn into an abomination that causes untold amounts of destruction. But even with her saying that she herself has lived in the lap of leisure for years in the Imperial Palace having no need for any kind of supervision from the templars. She wants to force her fellow mages back into Circles and yet she gets live outside them as a wannabe noble. She believes in the survival of fittest and the Darwinist tenets of the Orlesian Game, but when Morrigan replaces her as an magical advisor to Celene because her lack of knowledge she gets jealous and spiteful about her lost position. 

 

As to her being unemphatic, you're right, she does care about the tranquil and some of the members of the Inquisition, but when comes to actually trying to understand why the the Circles would want to rebel she condemns them as being selfish and stupid believing that the templars were right in forcing them back into the Circles. She almost never brings up how some mages are constantly abused by templars and how being taken away from your parents and forced into an isolated environment can justifiable lead a person deciding that their being oppressed and need to rebel. She just brings up how she was treated and doesn't bother with how others might have been. That sounds at least mildly unemphatic to me. 

[Sports72Xtrm]

How is she hypocritical and unemphatic? She is concerned about tranquils, Cole, Inquisitor and other memebers of Inquisition. Also, don't know her hypocrycy. :c

Probably because they're her type of preferred company- servile automatons that she can boss around without defiance. She's one of those mages who approves of using tranquility on her enemies. Using mutilation to cow her foes. Cruel and unusual punishment used by sociopathic mages. She does not exude compassion.

[Dabrikishaw]

Vivienne is unemphatic in the same way Sera is unemphatic. Fall in line with them and you're alright, fall out of their personally approved categories and they have a problem with you.

 

As for hypocritical, ComedicSociopathy laid it out pretty well why some hold that opinion.

[ComedicSociopathy]

Vivienne is unemphatic in the same way Sera is unemphatic. Fall in line with them and you're alright, fall out of their personally approved categories and they have a problem with you.

 

At least you kick out Sera when she starts sneering at you. 

 

With Vivienne you have to suffer through her furniture prank and her very unsubtle jabs. 

[teh DRUMPf!!]

She slightly disapproves, but it isn't for the reason you stated. She remarks that playing to the common folk is an interesting strategy, but obviously she would have preferred raising the templars to the top in order to better persuade them.

 

That actually kinda bums me out.

 

I kept the Populace at the bottom because, let's face it, the vast majority of people are morons.

[teh DRUMPf!!]

but when comes to actually trying to understand why the the Circles would want to rebel she condemns them as being selfish and stupid believing that the templars were right in forcing them back into the Circles.

 

*sigh*

 

For the umpteenth time, Vivienne says clearly (and on more than one occasion) that she is okay with protesting Templar abuses...

 

However, she points out that mages are more hated than ever after what Anders did, and that breaking away from the Chantry means waging an unwinnable war. Templars will not allow it, and most people (that thing that produces Templars and cannot similarly be disbanded) do not want them. So, in light of those things, she maintains that throwing their lives away the rebellion is not going to improve things for mages.

[Malleficae]

She believes that as a mage she's a danger to everyone and needs to be watched by others (Templars) to ensure that she doesn't turn into an abomination that causes untold amounts of destruction. But even with her saying that she herself has lived in the lap of leisure for years in the Imperial Palace having no need for any kind of supervision from the templars. She wants to force her fellow mages back into Circles and yet she gets live outside them as a wannabe noble. She believes in the survival of fittest and the Darwinist tenets of the Orlesian Game, but when Morrigan replaces her as an magical advisor to Celene because her lack of knowledge she gets jealous and spiteful about her lost position. 

 

As to her being unemphatic, you're right, she does care about the tranquil and some of the members of the Inquisition, but when comes to actually trying to understand why the the Circles would want to rebel she condemns them as being selfish and stupid believing that the templars were right in forcing them back into the Circles. She almost never brings up how some mages are constantly abused by templars and how being taken away from your parents and forced into an isolated environment can justifiable lead a person deciding that their being oppressed and need to rebel. She just brings up how she was treated and doesn't bother with how others might have been. That sounds at least mildly unemphatic to me. 

 

As far as I know she hand't this so well.

 

 

• Cole: Stepping into the parlor, hem of my gown snagged, no, adjust before I go in, must look perfect.
• Vivienne: My dear, your pet is speaking again. Do silence it.
• Cole: Voices inside. Marquis Alphonse.
• Cole: "I do hope Duke Bastien puts out the lights before he touches her. But then, she must disappear in the dark."
• Cole: Gown tight between my fingers, cold all over. Unacceptable. Wheels turn, strings pull.
• Cole: He hurt you. You left a letter, let out a lie so he would do something foolish against the Inquisition. A trap.
• Vivienne: Inquisitor, as your demon lacks manners, perhaps you could get Solas to train it.
•  
• She even tried to protect Inquisiton form Duke! :/
•  
• (Following "Wicked Eyes and Wicked Hearts")
• Cole: Uncultured barbarian witch.
• Vivienne: I beg your pardon, demon?
• Cole: Jaws ache, dress stiff, binding, years of work, favors fought, deals dealt, and the witch usurped my position.
• Vivienne: Remove yourself from my head.
• Cole: You're angry at Morrigan. She took what you had without working.
• Vivienne: She took nothing. If Empress Celene wished the counsel of some untrained witch, she was free to seek it.
• Cole: Celene did not make you go away. She respected you.
• Vivienne: She feared the consequences of angering me.

 

She is angry because she spend a lot of time trying to get noticed and then Morrigan came and took place which she worked a lot for. Wouldn't you be mad? You would, everyone would because that is human thing.

 

She doesn't bring those because she knows it and she understands why. To prevent danger. Circles don't exist for nothing. ACCEPT IT. She understands why they rebel but she is smart enough to understand why all this happens. And mage abuse isn't about Circles, it's about BAD people. Not all templars are bad but people pretend they don't exist to prove their point and it's stupid. If mages tried to communicate with Templar's Commanders and tell them about what is happening I bet they would do something. You remember Meredith? Yeah, she was mad but she knew what is wrong at some point but no one told her what was happening. You think she wouldn't deal with it? She was all about justice but mages choosen to not tell anyone because "all templars are bad!!!11!". Also, they could kill one specific templar but instead they killed innocent people and at the very end hadn't killed this one specific templar which abused them. Much logic, very wow.

 

Wynne hadn't perfect life and she was all about Circles. Vivienne's lifestyle hadn't made her not notice how Circles are bad, Circles are simply not bad. Also, I'm happy that mage had kinda good life (apart from abuse from Duke).