437 réponses à ce sujet

[andy6915]

How is she hypocritical and unemphatic? She is concerned about tranquils, Cole, Inquisitor and other memebers of Inquisition. Also, don't know her hypocrycy. :c

I already have an example earlier. She says the mages you allied with need to be watched by templar trained people, yet if you tried to assign a templar to watch her 24/7 for safety in case she became possessed... She would be p*ssed. Like, "leave the Inquisition in a huff" angry. You know it, I know it. She likes rules, but only if they don't apply to her. She wants to always be the exception to everything.

[Malleficae]

I already have an example earlier. She says the mages you allied with need to be watched by templar trained people, yet if you tried to assign a templar to watch her 24/7 for safety in case she became possessed... She would be p*ssed. Like, "leave the Inquisition in a huff" angry. You know it, I know it. She likes rules, but only if they don't apply to her. She wants to always be the exception to everything.

 

Only you know it because you think so. And I know she would be fine with that. Actually, she is watched 24/7 by templars on Inquisitor. Cullen is templar, Lysette is templar and there is few more templars.

[andy6915]

Only you know it because you think so. And I know she would be fine with that. Actually, she is watched 24/7 by templars on Inquisitor. Cullen is templar, Lysette is templar and there is few more templars.

That's different. She wants the mages personally watched, not simply kept in the same overall vicinity as templars. Yet, she would skoff if you tried that to HER.

[Malleficae]

That's different. She wants the mages personally watched, not simply kept in the same overall vicinity as templars. Yet, she would skoff if you tried that to HER.

 

Why you say so? You think Duke had no templars in wherever he kept her? I'm sure he had bunch of them just in case his precious bird would try to go away.

[Dabrikishaw]

It's fine that you disagree with Vivienne being a hypocrite, but If you can't prove Bastien had her under Templar watch it's best not to insist he did as some sort of counter to andy6915's example.

[Malleficae]

It's fine that you disagree with Vivienne being a hypocrite, but If you can't prove Bastien had her under Templar watch it's best not to insist he did as some sort of counter to andy6915's example.

 

But it's fine for him to pretend that he knows what Vivi would do. Also, mages were only let go from Circles into Grey Wardens and since Vivienne was from Circle they wouldn't let her go without protection. Be realistic. Especially with her self awarness.

[Dabrikishaw]

But it's fine for him to pretend that he knows what Vivi would do. Also, mages were only let go from Circles into Grey Wardens and since Vivienne was from Circle they wouldn't let her go without protection. Be realistic. Especially with her self awarness.

If all you were refuting was andy6915's speculation from post 151 then I apologize. Post 153 however I still think applies as actual reasons to assume Vivienne is a hypocrite. 

[ComedicSociopathy]

 

 

 

She is angry because she spend a lot of time trying to get noticed and then Morrigan came and took place which she worked a lot for. Wouldn't you be mad? You would, everyone would because that is human thing.

 

 

It is a very human response but its also put of the Game, my dear. She lost because wasn't good enough or skilled enough and instead of reexamining the holes within her own magical knowledge and learn new tricks she opted to just be bitter about the whole situation. A Human thing to do, yes, but seeing someone so intelligent and experienced but raise above that is disappointing, especially when said person lives in a society being outclassed by the more talented is to be accepted. 

 

 

 

She doesn't bring those because she knows it and she understands why. To prevent danger. Circles don't exist for nothing. ACCEPT IT. She understands why they rebel but she is smart enough to understand why all this happens. And mage abuse isn't about Circles, it's about BAD people. Not all templars are bad but people pretend they don't exist to prove their point and it's stupid. If mages tried to communicate with Templar's Commanders and tell them about what is happening I bet they would do something. You remember Meredith? Yeah, she was mad but she knew what is wrong at some point but no one told her what was happening. You think she wouldn't deal with it? She was all about justice but mages choosen to not tell anyone because "all templars are bad!!!11!". Also, they could kill one specific templar but instead they killed innocent people and at the very end hadn't killed this one specific templar which abused them. Much logic, very wow.

 

 

I never said that all templars are bad, Ser Barris is awesome after all, and I never said that all Circles were bad. In fact, some like Montsimmard or Ostwick are apparently pretty good. That said, we've seen in this franchise how some Circles allow its Templars to literally get away with rape and murder and how some Templars are corrupt sociopaths that use their power to abuse their charges and circumvent the very Chantry laws that are supposed to protect the rights of mages everywhere. Furthermore, its not a given that a Knight Commander will listen to to complaints of mages or that mage will even have the opportunity to issue that compliant out if his abusers manage to get to him first, just look at Real Cole's situation at the White Spire for instance.

 

To Vivienne's credit she's the one brings up the ultimate flaw with the Circle system, that every single Circle is different and that while she might have a relatively idyllic time in one of them others like Cole end up being treated horribly. 

 

It's only to bad that Vivienne seems blind to just how bad a mage might be treated if their unlucky enough to end up a Circle that's even half as terrible as Kirkwall. 

[Darkstarr11]

Why you say so? You think Duke had no templars in wherever he kept her? I'm sure he had bunch of them just in case his precious bird would try to go away.

 

Remember she can kill that guy at her party with no consequences.  That'd be some very corrupt Templars if they let a mage out and out kill someone when they were right there.  It also shows that she ISN'T like other mages.  She gets away with a LOT that others don't.

[Malleficae]

Remember she can kill that guy at her party with no consequences.  That'd be some very corrupt Templars if they let a mage out and out kill someone when they were right there.  It also shows that she ISN'T like other mages.  She gets away with a LOT that others don't.

 

You know why? Because he broke rules by attacking Inquisitor. If you ask her, you might know it. She said that when he reached his weapon he was no longer protected by law because he broke it. No need to thank me for explanation. c:

 

Edit:

Also, if you let her choose, she doesn't kill him.

[ComedicSociopathy]

Doesn't really having anything to do with her views but is anyone else annoyed that her loyalist mages never actually showed up? I mean even in her war table missions their never involved or mentioned or do anything. 

 

They sure would have been helpful in dealing with that whole Breach problem and would of allowed us to not even bother with getting the mages at Redcliffe and dealing with all that time travel nonsense. 

[Darkstarr11]

You know why? Because he broke rules by attacking Inquisitor. If you ask her, you might know it. She said that when he reached his weapon he was no longer protected by law because he broke it. No need to thank me for explanation. c:

 

Edit:

Also, if you let her choose, she doesn't kill him.

 

He hadn't drawn his weapon yet.  He'd challenged them to a duel.  Or was about to.  She has enough power and pull to straight out murder someone and is untouchable.  No other mage I know gets away with that.

 

She IS fond of using violence to solve problems.  If she becomes Divine and you saved the mages at Redcliffe, she kills those who don't join her.  She's a tyrant, pure and simple.  THIS is the reason I don't support her.

 

 

You can see here...

 

[Darkstarr11]

Doesn't really having anything to do with her views but is anyone else annoyed that her loyalist mages never actually showed up? I mean even in her war table missions their never involved or mentioned or do anything. 

 

They sure would have been helpful in dealing with that whole Breach problem and would of allowed us to not even bother with getting the mages at Redcliffe and dealing with all that time travel nonsense. 

 

She's leader in name only.  I'm starting to wonder exactly how many 'loyalist' mages there were.  Also, she blames the mages for starting the war.  I checked.  They didn't.  The Templars DECLARED war when they voted for independence.  The LOYALIST mages who supported the Templars actually helped declare war on those who voted for independence.  She's more than happy to slaughter them all.  

 

Though she does express a lot of disgust for what happened to the Tranquil.  She's not completely heartless.  Hypocritical, but not heartless.  

[Vit246]

delete. 

[Malleficae]

 

He hadn't drawn his weapon yet.  He'd challenged them to a duel.  Or was about to.  She has enough power and pull to straight out murder someone and is untouchable.  No other mage I know gets away with that.

 

She IS fond of using violence to solve problems.  If she becomes Divine and you saved the mages at Redcliffe, she kills those who don't join her.  She's a tyrant, pure and simple.  THIS is the reason I don't support her.

 

 

You can see here...

 

 

 

Yeah, because she gives them a lot of freedom with protection to prevent abominations and they still complain. They left Inquisition which saved their life from becoming puppets of Coryfish, they don't want to join better Circles... What you expect her to do with them? Hug and tell them "good job at being potential killer of city"? She does what is necessary because she has enough guts for that. I'm happy I made her divine. ^^

[Darkstarr11]

Yeah, because she gives them a lot of freedom with protection to prevent abominations and they still complain. They left Inquisition which saved their life from becoming puppets of Coryfish, they don't want to join better Circles... What you expect her to do with them? Hug and tell them "good job at being potential killer of city"? She does what is necessary because she has enough guts for that. I'm happy I made her divine. ^^

 

Heh, which is why we have choice.  I won't ever put her as Divine, but that's me.  At least we can choose which we prefer.

 

Let me restate:  she kills them if they don't join her.  She KILLS them.  Her way, or death.  There is NOTHING noble about what she does there.  It's about power, HER power, and nothing else.  What about all the Dalish in the area?  What if they don't send their mages to the Circle?  Will she kill them all too?  It's enslavement.  A pretty cage, but they are only allowed freedoms to do it HER way.  Step out of line, and you're dead.

 

'I did what was necessary' is a catch phrase for tyrants and killers.  It makes her little different than Kim Jong Un or Saddam or Celene.  It's about power, their power.  Especially when the rules that apply to other mages do NOT apply to her.

[ComedicSociopathy]

Heh, which is why we have choice.  I won't ever put her as Divine, but that's me.  At least we can choose which we prefer.

 

Let me restate:  she kills them if they don't join her.  She KILLS them.  Her way, or death.  There is NOTHING noble about what she does there.  It's about power, HER power, and nothing else.  What about all the Dalish in the area?  What if they don't send their mages to the Circle?  Will she kill them all too?  It's enslavement.  A pretty cage, but they are only allowed freedoms to do it HER way.  Step out of line, and you're dead.

 

'I did what was necessary' is a catch phrase for tyrants and killers.  It makes her little different than Kim Jong Un or Saddam or Celene.  It's about power, their power.  Especially when the rules that apply to other mages do NOT apply to her.

 

Diplomacy is for pissies I guess. 

[Darkstarr11]

Do the people who dislike Vivienne for her lack of empathy also dislike Sera for the same reason? She dislikes mages too, and also thinks they should be locked away with their scary magic.

 

Yes, same reasons I dislike Sera.  Though Vivienne gets points for turning Sera's pranks back on her at nearly every turn.  She shuts her down at nearly every turn.  I have to admit, I think its a riot when she does.  

 

 ...skitter, skitter... 

 

 

Ahem...

 

Again, I don't disagree that there need to be safeguards.  We've got people who can burn down cities with their minds.  Templars ARE needed.  However, Tranquility is dangerous.  Ameridan tells you this when you meet him.  It is NOT a mercy, it's mind rape.  Killing them is merciful in comparison.  It's use has become so familiar that it is used when there is a disagreement, and the mage can only protest or fight back.  Cullen tells you that Meredith had some mages branded for really petty reasons.  No trial, just bye bye free will.  

 

However, for every Meredith, Alrik, and Lambert there is a Greigor, a Rutherford, and a Barris.  There ARE good Templars who know how to handle mages, and know how to protect them from others and themselves.  Not ALL Templars are bad...and not ALL mages are good.  I simply see Vivienne as falling into the bad camp.  IMHO, ya know?  That's me.  Others do NOT see it that way.  They see her as practical, and pragmatic.  Which is fine.  Everyone is entitled to their opinion.  It's why I switched from Final Fantasy to Dragon Age.  Can you imagine her in that game?  She'd either be a straight up villain, or she'd be fawning over the main character at every turn.  

 

As I said, I love to hate her.  She's complicated, ruthless and dangerous.  Thank goodness for that instead of bland shonen garbage that we could have been shoveled.  

[Malleficae]

Heh, which is why we have choice.  I won't ever put her as Divine, but that's me.  At least we can choose which we prefer.

 

Let me restate:  she kills them if they don't join her.  She KILLS them.  Her way, or death.  There is NOTHING noble about what she does there.  It's about power, HER power, and nothing else.  What about all the Dalish in the area?  What if they don't send their mages to the Circle?  Will she kill them all too?  It's enslavement.  A pretty cage, but they are only allowed freedoms to do it HER way.  Step out of line, and you're dead.

 

'I did what was necessary' is a catch phrase for tyrants and killers.  It makes her little different than Kim Jong Un or Saddam or Celene.  It's about power, their power.  Especially when the rules that apply to other mages do NOT apply to her.

 

You forgot we are talking about mages again. You don't remember what Dalish do when they have more than one mage in clan? They leave them to death. You know why they accept one? For tradition? Yes, but one can get killed by clan. The only thing she could do to other mages is tranquility but you would also complain. Magic is a weapon. I love mages, I would be a mage if I had a choice but I understand danger. You know why people hate mages? Because they are afraid, because they have reasons to be afraid and Circles take those reasons away. Play DA2 more, see what mages can do. Freedom is beautiful thing until freedom for one means taking freedom away from other. And freedom is about living - mages can take it too easily.

[ComedicSociopathy]

Yes, same reasons I dislike Sera.  Though Vivienne gets points for turning Sera's pranks back on her at nearly every turn.  She shuts her down at nearly every turn.  I have to admit, I think its a riot when she does.  

 

 ...skitter, skitter... 

 

At least Sera has the excuse of being kinda stupid and uneducated...

[Jaison1986]

Yeah, because she gives them a lot of freedom with protection to prevent abominations and they still complain. They left Inquisition which saved their life from becoming puppets of Coryfish, they don't want to join better Circles... What you expect her to do with them? Hug and tell them "good job at being potential killer of city"? She does what is necessary because she has enough guts for that. I'm happy I made her divine. ^^

 

That's Vivienne fault for being a poor leader. If you conscript the mages and make Cassandra divine, guess what? They do go back to the circle. It's not about mages being stubborn, but about Vivienne being a tyrant.

[Malleficae]

That's Vivienne fault for being a poor leader. If you conscript the mages and make Cassandra divine, guess what? They do go back to the circle. It's not about mages being stubborn, but about Vivienne being a tyrant.

 

 

Or they escape from Inquisition knowing that this weapon can protect them from someone who conscripted them?

[Jaison1986]

 

Or they escape from Inquisition knowing that this weapon can protect them from someone who conscripted them?

 

Funny you say that, as the mages do stay with the Inquisition if you conscript them and make Leliana divine.

[Malleficae]

Funny you say that, as the mages do stay with the Inquisition if you conscript them and make Leliana divine.

 

Nightingale has no good fame either. Do you know if unhardened Leliana change this?