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I have a hard time supporting Vivienne's views


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#176
Darkstarr11

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You forgot we are talking about mages again. You don't remember what Dalish do when they have more than one mage in clan? They leave them to death. You know why they accept one? For tradition? Yes, but one can get killed by clan. The only thing she could do to other mages is tranquility but you would also complain. Magic is a weapon. I love mages, I would be a mage if I had a choice but I understand danger. You know why people hate mages? Because they are afraid, because they have reasons to be afraid and Circles take those reasons away. Play DA2 more, see what mages can do. Freedom is beautiful thing until freedom for one means taking freedom away from other. And freedom is about living - mages can take it too easily.

 

I do play DAII.  All the time.  It's my favorite of the DA series.  The Circles in their current form do NOT decrease fear of mages, they instill it.  I do complain about Tranquility because of the ease with which they utilize it.  It's like lobotomizing someone who disagrees with you.  It's...too easy.  If you have to cut off a mages head, you have to think about it.  You have to have someone who is either entirely sure its a good idea, or someone who totally doesn't care about life at all.  Tranquil means you do't even need to be sure.  Hey, they aren't DEAD, right?  Minaeve comes right out and tells you what they do.  In fact, when you think about it, Merrill probably got punted to Sabre Clan for that very reason.  

 

Note though that the College that is proposed DOESN'T seem like its a good idea either.  No safeguards will also end poorly.  In truth, neither solution truly is.  Something new must be created that satisfies both safety and training for mages, while providing security for everyone else.  Cassandra seems to provide SOMETHING in that direction.  A start at least.  Also, she doesn't kill everyone who disagrees with her...


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#177
Jaison1986

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Nightingale has no good fame either. Do you know if unhardened Leliana change this?

 

No, conscripted mages aways stay with the inquisition, no matter what kind of personality Leliana haves. And as far as the epilogue sugests, the circle under the Inquisition is better then the one led by free mages.



#178
Darkstarr11

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Nightingale has no good fame either. Do you know if unhardened Leliana change this?

 

Unhardened diplomatically solves the issues...and appears to do the same thing as hardened.  College of Enchanters form with her blessing...and it appears to be working, for now.  I notice that's stressed each time.  For now.

 

Ahh, conscripted.  Whoops, yeah, they stay.  My bad, I misread that.  



#179
Malleficae

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I do play DAII.  All the time.  It's my favorite of the DA series.  The Circles in their current form do NOT decrease fear of mages, they instill it.  I do complain about Tranquility because of the ease with which they utilize it.  It's like lobotomizing someone who disagrees with you.  It's...too easy.  If you have to cut off a mages head, you have to think about it.  You have to have someone who is either entirely sure its a good idea, or someone who totally doesn't care about life at all.  Tranquil means you do't even need to be sure.  Hey, they aren't DEAD, right?  Minaeve comes right out and tells you what they do.  In fact, when you think about it, Merrill probably got punted to Sabre Clan for that very reason.  

 

Note though that the College that is proposed DOESN'T seem like its a good idea either.  No safeguards will also end poorly.  In truth, neither solution truly is.  Something new must be created that satisfies both safety and training for mages, while providing security for everyone else.  Cassandra seems to provide SOMETHING in that direction.  A start at least.  Also, she doesn't kill everyone who disagrees with her...

 

Tranquility was meant only for mages who can be easily possesed. In DA2 it was overused by sadist. Also, Vivienne changed Circles. By myself I would prefer if circles were cities where everyone could live but templars controled mages and made sure they are fine.

Tranquility is used when templars are sure that person is danger. So it is necessary. Also, as I mentioned, there is possibility that after reversion you are no longer mage so it could be used that way.

 

You still pretend that mages who left Inquisition and Circles disagree while they don't say "we need to do something else", they escape and most likely kill like they did before. Face the truth. Mages who did rebelion which we see during DAI are ruthless killers and THOSE mages leave Vivi's circles. What killer will do, hmm? Kill. All mages which we saw not wanting to kill came back to Circles right after they had possibility. Only killers don't come back because they know that it will be harder to kill trainer enemies.



#180
Darkstarr11

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Tranquility was meant only for mages who can be easily possesed. In DA2 it was overused by sadist. Also, Vivienne changed Circles. By myself I would prefer if circles were cities where everyone could live but templars controled mages and made sure they are fine.

Tranquility is used when templars are sure that person is danger. So it is necessary. Also, as I mentioned, there is possibility that after reversion you are no longer mage so it could be used that way.

 

You still pretend that mages who left Inquisition and Circles disagree while they don't say "we need to do something else", they escape and most likely kill like they did before. Face the truth. Mages who did rebelion which we see during DAI are ruthless killers and THOSE mages leave Vivi's circles. What killer will do, hmm? Kill. All mages which we saw not wanting to kill came back to Circles right after they had possibility. Only killers don't come back because they know that it will be harder to kill trainer enemies.

 

Vivienne changed the Circles to suit HER.  And Templars CONTROLLING mages got us where we are now.  Control implies that free will is not going to be allowed.  With no safeguards, it is, in effect, enslavement.  Or a prison.  As we can attest by seeing our own culture, prison does NOT rehabilitate.  It simply makes a better criminal.  Traumatizing young, impressionable mages and throwing them in with sociopaths will only turn THEM into dangerous mages.  You are correct, some mages WILL turn out as killers.  Statistically it is GOING to happen.  Yet treating EVERY mage that way will only ensure that that number increases exponentially.  

 

I pretend nothing.  The mages did NOT rebel.  They voted.  They exercised their right to vote.  Lambert had a mage attack the Divine to malign their reputation and then decided to slaughter the lot rather than accept that they had VOTED.  There was no sit down, no negotiation.  He didn't like it, and wanted them dead.  Only after they were attacked did they fight back.  Everyone agrees that this was going to happen anyway, but Lambert was the instigator.  Adrian didn't help matters at all, but Lambert was looking for a reason to hammer the mages.  When push came to shove, they fought back.  There were villains on both sides.  

 

Yet punishing the innocent for the work of the guilty is wrong.  Remember some mages didn't even have a choice.  They were guilty by association.  Several of the mages in Redcliffe come right out and state that.  They were loyal to their First Enchanter and rogue Templars lumped them all together.  THAT is a problem.  That's what it came down to, and that's why their was a war.  See a mage?  Must be a blood mage, kill it.  Is that a Templar?  Murdering monster!  Kill him!  Generalizations and blame led to two groups who SHOULD be working together to warring with Thedas caught in the middle.  

 

I sympathize with the mages.  Oppression is wrong.  Yet I do not refute the need for safeguards and proper controls.  Yet imprisonment, torture and bullying will NOT yield results that are favorable.  It will ALWAYS return to the status quo.  This is not an outcome that will suit anyone.  Mages are GOING to keep being born.  Punishing someone for who they are at birth is WRONG.  Even if you don't agree with the mages, you have to see the fallacy of traumatizing them and imprisoning them.  Educating them, with proper safeguards is the only way to ensure that this works out.  There WILL be mistakes, and problems.  Such is the nature of life.  Yet, as I am steering this back to the topic, Vivienne does NOT do this.  She consolidates her own power, puts herself on top of the pile and reaps the bennies for HERSELF.  Leashing the templars, and slaughtering the mages who do not agree will only end in more bloodshed.  She is a tyrant and tyrants fall...often with horrible results for all around them.  History has MANY examples of how that works out... 


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#181
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Vivienne changed the Circles to suit HER.  And Templars CONTROLLING mages got us where we are now.  Control implies that free will is not going to be allowed.  With no safeguards, it is, in effect, enslavement.  Or a prison.  As we can attest by seeing our own culture, prison does NOT rehabilitate.  It simply makes a better criminal.  Traumatizing young, impressionable mages and throwing them in with sociopaths will only turn THEM into dangerous mages.  You are correct, some mages WILL turn out as killers.  Statistically it is GOING to happen.  Yet treating EVERY mage that way will only ensure that that number increases exponentially.  

 

I pretend nothing.  The mages did NOT rebel.  They voted.  They exercised their right to vote.  Lambert had a mage attack the Divine to malign their reputation and then decided to slaughter the lot rather than accept that they had VOTED.  There was no sit down, no negotiation.  He didn't like it, and wanted them dead.  Only after they were attacked did they fight back.  Everyone agrees that this was going to happen anyway, but Lambert was the instigator.  Adrian didn't help matters at all, but Lambert was looking for a reason to hammer the mages.  When push came to shove, they fought back.  There were villains on both sides.  

 

Yet punishing the innocent for the work of the guilty is wrong.  Remember some mages didn't even have a choice.  They were guilty by association.  Several of the mages in Redcliffe come right out and state that.  They were loyal to their First Enchanter and rogue Templars lumped them all together.  THAT is a problem.  That's what it came down to, and that's why their was a war.  See a mage?  Must be a blood mage, kill it.  Is that a Templar?  Murdering monster!  Kill him!  Generalizations and blame led to two groups who SHOULD be working together to warring with Thedas caught in the middle.  

 

I sympathize with the mages.  Oppression is wrong.  Yet I do not refute the need for safeguards and proper controls.  Yet imprisonment, torture and bullying will NOT yield results that are favorable.  It will ALWAYS return to the status quo.  This is not an outcome that will suit anyone.  Mages are GOING to keep being born.  Punishing someone for who they are at birth is WRONG.  Even if you don't agree with the mages, you have to see the fallacy of traumatizing them and imprisoning them.  Educating them, with proper safeguards is the only way to ensure that this works out.  There WILL be mistakes, and problems.  Such is the nature of life.  Yet, as I am steering this back to the topic, Vivienne does NOT do this.  She consolidates her own power, puts herself on top of the pile and reaps the bennies for HERSELF.  Leashing the templars, and slaughtering the mages who do not agree will only end in more bloodshed.  She is a tyrant and tyrants fall...often with horrible results for all around them.  History has MANY examples of how that works out... 

Honestly I think if there is going to be an anullment then the templars need to be purged as well because logically speaking if they are put into place to keep and maintain order and to make sure that the mages and Circles are kept in check, and if an anullment declares that an entire circle be purged then logically it means that the templars FAILED at their sacred duty to preserve order and keep the peace and should thus "go down with the ship" so-to-speak instead of being allowed the chance to relocate to and potentially screw up another Circle system with their ineptitude.

 

Whether they off themselves via ritualistic suicide or meet an end at the hands of the Seekers matters not in the end, in one's view the annulling is happening because the mages are out of control and need to die; and in the same view one can say that the mages are out of control because the templars failed so they too need to die for failing at their sacred duty and allowing the chaos to burgeon like it had. 


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#182
Kakistos_

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I really like Vivienne as a character and love her voice actor Indira Varma(Game of Thrones). I don't agree with a damn thing she says but her character is revealed to be more nuanced than first impressions would suggest. Listen to her banter with Cole. There is a heart under that glacier of Magic ice. When it comes down to it though, as many people here have been saying, Vivienne only looks out for herself and doesn't hesitate to throw all other Mages under the Dragon.

 

Vivienne is intelligent, she worked the system and is fully aware of the fact that if she had had a Knight Commander like Meredith she would have ended up just like Orsino and never met the Empress. She knows that if she had been in the wrong place at the wrong time she could have ended up dead just like the Mage that SURRENDERED to the Templars in the White Spire. She knows this and maybe she does care but she chooses to put her own ambitions first.

 

That said, she did stick around to fight on the front lines and help save the world after Corypheus revealed himself as well as sacrifice herself in the Dark Future so there is no lack of bravery on her part when it really matters.


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#183
MattH

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Her views on Mages are based on a separation between herself and them. They need to be placed in towers while she need to be placed in power. She holds herself apart.

Vivienne reminds me of Morrigan in this, somebody who is fully aware of their own abilites, and able to see the weakness in others.

Vivienne is easily in my top 5 of Bioware characters. Yes, there are definitely opportunities that were missed to use her character properly ("I know every member of the imperial court personally" and "I have all the resources left of the circle at my disposal"... where Viv? Where?!) But that is down to the game itself not her character. However she is one of the most interesting characters.
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#184
MrGDL87

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Okay, some of what I will say has already been said by others (but I'll just repeat it anyway :P).

 

Firstly, no-one should be shocked about Vivienne's opinions because she tells you her Circle stance from the outset. She gives us a pro-circle point of view as a mage and she does this by giving a logical, rational argument. I like the fact that she is resolute in her beliefs and is not influenced by the inquisitor/anyone else.

 

Vivienne acknowledges that there are abuses of power with the current system but it is better to fix the Circle system rather than create new problems with a completely new system. Vivienne is a character that supports the mages and sees the worth of having Templars around (I think she refers to Templars as a tools to be used). So she isn't a massive fan of the Templars but she can see they're a necessity and have an important role against magical dangers. I don't think Vivienne is absolutely against mage freedom but it should be a gradual change rather than instantaneous.

 

Vivienne wasn't awarded power overnight. She worked extremely hard by playing 'The Game' and playing this game as an outsider (Non-Orlesian). She is ambitious but this can be viewed as a positive because it shows she works hard and is motivated to achieve her goals.

 

When speaking to Vivienne about becoming Divine, I don't feel that she is trying to manipulate you in choosing her. In fact, my inquisitor suggested her name before she even put her hat in the ring. I also don't believe that Vivienne had a secret ambition to be Divine. Vivienne accepts the inquisitor's recommendation because there is no suitable alternative.

 

If she is Divine, she grants more freedoms to the mages (but we don't know how far this freedom extends) so she does care about her fellow mages. If she was just looking out for herself then she could have just reinstated the Circles, then sit on the throne and done nothing.

 

Overall I think Vivienne as a Divine could work. She restores the institutions of the Circle, Templars and Chantry and she is familiar on how they operate so she knows what needs improving. I believe the Circle system can work and it is useful in training mages. This system needs rational and sane people on both the mages and Templars side to prevent incidents like Kirkwall. The Circles must have been doing something right to survive for centuries. Vivienne has a strong influence on the Templars and this can be viewed as a good thing. The Templar reputation among the faithful will be at an all time low because they have just rebelled against the Chantry. So Vivienne will need to be seen as being in control to restore this lost confidence. She has them on a tight leash so if there is a faulty Templar 'tool' then she will replace it. She also has experience of being a mage in the Circle and will be the first Divine what has had first hand experience of the system. Vivienne as a Divine could become an inspiration to the mages and the faithful (because she would be a bridging connection between the two) and this consequently could change people's view on mages as a whole. If public perception of mages is more favourable then Vivienne in theory can grant more freedoms in the future.

 

Vivienne can come across as self-serving and arrogant and this is due to the Orlesian culture. She needs to keep up appearances in order to not look weak and maintain her reputation. However, her true inner feelings are sometimes shown and it shows a softer side. For example, Vivienne is the only companion to ask the inquisitor how they were feeling after Adamant and the Well. She also gives approval if you save the people at Haven so she does show concern about other's feelings. Vivienne could have easily sat back in the palace but decided to join the inquisitor to be proactive and fight for what she believes in.

 

I saw a post about what would she do for non-human believers to discourage discrimination. You could make this as an argument against Justinia or the Chantry as an organisation as a whole. This would not be Vivienne's problem until after she is made Divine. If Vivienne does become Divine, it would be just speculation at this point on what would happen but who's to say that she won't grant further freedoms like she did with the mages.

 

Furthermore, mages wouldn't be locked away in the Circle. Vivienne says that permission from the First Enchanter is needed to leave the Circle. I don't know how often this permission was granted but the important fact is that such a permission exists. Therefore, Vivienne isn't a hypocrite because she's taking advantage of existing rules.

 

The most convincing argument against Vivienne would be disliking her due to her personality or she is too conservative in her reforms (although this is still speculation as the reforms weren't given in detail).  


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#185
andy6915

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Overall I think Vivienne as a Divine could work.

 

Like catching your house on fire could work for warming you up on a cold night.


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#186
MrGDL87

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Like catching your house on fire could work for warming you up on a cold night.

 

I would call the firemen Templars to put it out :P
 



#187
Akkos

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Like catching your house on fire could work for warming you up on a cold night.

 

It does work to warm you up if you consciously light your house on fire.



#188
andy6915

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It does work to warm you up if you consciously light your house on fire.

 

And leaves you with a burned down house that can no longer give you any shelter from the cold, you traded one warm night for countless freezing nights from then on. You just made the metaphor stronger.



#189
Malleficae

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Like catching your house on fire could work for warming you up on a cold night.

 

You tried to show how it is stupid but actually made good point on what Vivienne brings. You sacrifice something for greater need. You were so cold you might die which represents how desperatly we needed someone to make decisions and you sacrificed your home which was safe spot you needed to get rid of to make changes happen. ^^


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#190
Akkos

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And leaves you with a burned down house that can no longer give you any shelter from the cold, you traded one warm night for countless freezing nights from then on. You just made the metaphor stronger.

 

LOLz.  Darling, that's the point, it will warm you up throughout the cold night at least. Till the society give you a new one for next freezing nights.



#191
andy6915

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You tried to show how it is stupid but actually made good point on what Vivienne brings. You sacrifice something for greater need. You were so cold you might die which represents how desperatly we needed someone to make decisions and you sacrificed your home which was safe spot you needed to get rid of to make changes happen. ^^

 

Or you could have just grabbed a thicker blanket instead of burning down your only means of survival. But yes, burning down your house is definitely better than simply finding warming clothes or a warmer blanket that you know you have laying around your house somewhere... Note the sarcasm. And now you will die to the cold now that you don't have a house, whereas before you would have been fine but wanted to warm yourself in the dumbest way possible.


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#192
Darkstarr11

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Or you could have just grabbed a thicker blanket instead of burning down your only means of survival. But yes, burning down your house is definitely better than simply finding warming clothes or a warmer blanket that you know you have laying around your house somewhere... Note the sarcasm. And now you will die to the cold now that you don't have a house, whereas before you would have been fine but wanted to warm yourself in the dumbest way possible.

 

No long term strategy...never a good idea.  Heck, you could just use up furniture that you weren't using and maintain a small fire.  Eat, drink and be merry, for tomorrow you may die.  Unless...you DON'T die, then you're screwed!   :P



#193
Akkos

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Or you could have just grabbed a thicker blanket instead of burning down your only means of survival. But yes, .burning down your house is definitely better than simply finding warming clothes or a warmer blanket that you know you have laying around your house somewhere.. Note the sarcasm. And now you will die to the cold now that you don't have a house, whereas before you would have been fine but wanted to warm yourself in the dumbest way possible.

 

Actually that applies to what "your free mages" want actually.



#194
Malleficae

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Or you could have just grabbed a thicker blanket instead of burning down your only means of survival. But yes, burning down your house is definitely better than simply finding warming clothes or a warmer blanket that you know you have laying around your house somewhere... Note the sarcasm. And now you will die to the cold now that you don't have a house, whereas before you would have been fine but wanted to warm yourself in the dumbest way possible.

If you burned your house you had reasons for this. What if this was beggining of apocalypse? It was so cold you almost died but you burned your house, you get yourself warm and other people noticed your position and picked you up. Win! 



#195
ShadowLordXII

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There's a lot that I could say about my perception of the circle system and the Chantry...but I'm going to keep things short for brevity and simplicity.

 

The Circle System is good in theory, but Chantry abuses, lack of supervision over the templars, and the Chantry's doctrine which paints all mages as walking time-bombs all resulted in the system failing and the war's break-out.

 

The fact that Vivienne either ignores or downplays any fault that the Chantry or the Templars had in the outbreak of the mage-templar war isn't surprising considering her priviledged background compared to many other mages. But it also means that I take her point of view with a grain of salt. I see where she's coming from and she does have a few points, but overall, it's not enough to discount all that came before.

 

As for the Circle System, I'd say that moderation is what's needed which Cassandra appears to support along with Vivienne to some degree. Leliana has her heart in the right place, but rarely is one extreme a good answer to another extreme. Personally, I'd say that the right path for the Chantry lies somewhere between Leliana's vision and Cassandra's reforms.


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#196
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I always make Leliana Divine when I can, and I've only softened her once just to do so.  I believe her being hardened is the most plausible way she can get her changes underway. I don't have a single issue with Divine Vivienne using violence against her opposition, I just prefer Leliana's reforms of the priesthood and Chantry re-dedication mostly. 


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#197
andy6915

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No long term strategy...never a good idea.  Heck, you could just use up furniture that you weren't using and maintain a small fire.  Eat, drink and be merry, for tomorrow you may die.  Unless...you DON'T die, then you're screwed!   :P

 

Maintaining a small fire in a fire pit, grabbing a blanket, dressing warmer... All far better options. Vivienne restores the same broken system that will just break again, rules like a tyrant who's idea of dealing with people who disagree with her is to kill them all (much like hardened Leliana except with a higher kill count than even her), and sets the precedent of the Chantry being ruled by a mage just like Tevinter. She's solving a problem in the dumbest way possible (light house on fire) and leaving a hell of a lot of problems for the future (now your house is burned down and a month's worth of blizzards is on the way). She's fixing the problem in the most temporary way possible, fixing it in a way that leaves you utterly screwed later.


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#198
SgtSteel91

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I gotta wonder what Vivienne would do with a Pro-Mage/allied Mages Inquisitor who got Leliana elected but has high approval with her. Like maybe, if anyone read Naruto, she would be the Sasuke to Naruto; as in she would begrudgingly accept that they wear the Big Hats, as Sera says, and would use her power to make sure they achieve their desired world with as little bloodshed as possible. Or make sure the College of Enchanters doesn't implode in on itself.

#199
Jaison1986

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There's a lot that I could say about my perception of the circle system and the Chantry...but I'm going to keep things short for brevity and simplicity.

 

The Circle System is good in theory, but Chantry abuses, lack of supervision over the templars, and the Chantry's doctrine which paints all mages as walking time-bombs all resulted in the system failing and the war's break-out.

 

The fact that Vivienne either ignores or downplays any fault that the Chantry or the Templars had in the outbreak of the mage-templar war isn't surprising considering her priviledged background compared to many other mages. But it also means that I take her point of view with a grain of salt. I see where she's coming from and she does have a few points, but overall, it's not enough to discount all that came before.

 

As for the Circle System, I'd say that moderation is what's needed which Cassandra appears to support along with Vivienne to some degree. Leliana has her heart in the right place, but rarely is one extreme a good answer to another extreme. Personally, I'd say that the right path for the Chantry lies somewhere between Leliana's vision and Cassandra's reforms.

 

I would say that for an true moderator the best outcome is to have Leliana become Divine and the Inquisitor recruit the mages as conscripts. It's the best of both worlds. The mages are under watch but they don't suffer abuses anymore.



#200
Kakistos_

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Edit - Botched Quote.