437 réponses à ce sujet

[Cha0sEff3ct]

I'm going to quote myself because I was ignored ;_; 

The circles are needed at least for now.

 

Spoiler

Abuse, rape and torture exist outside the circle regardless so you can't blame that solely on circles. Circles that have instances of this are broken circles without their systems in check and have become corrupt. At their best, circles take in and foster a mage's talent. I'll repeat this again, as Vivienne mentioned, young mages are found(worst case scenarios) when a young girl has a bad dream and then sets her house on fire or a little boy has a fight with his mother and accidentally tears her to shreds with magic out of anger. Or they take in mages from Dalish clans that were exiled to fend for themselves like Minaeve. Templars are needed to protect them from themselves until they learn to control their gifts.

 

Also there is no mention of schools of magic aside from circles, how do would be mages even learn to use their gift? In Thedas as I understand there is no way to tell if your child or anyone for that matter possess the gift of magic and it cannot be learned or taught naturally... yet. There are no fun magical schools of Hogwarts. Had history gone down a different path with strong mages founding a school. there could've been. But no instead the circles stemmed from the chaos of the Divine age where they had to deal with Old God cults, demons and abominations. Couple that with the Inquisition and the Chantry and you set in motion a Holy Calling to do The Maker's will effectively creating a witch hunt on all mages. From this the Nevarran accord was developed to create a martial arm of the chantry, The Templar Order, as well as the Circles of Magi where Mages can be watched and the Templars could oversee them. 

 

People keep thinking that Vivienne returns the circles to prisons we aren't sure of anything except that the epilogue states that Mages quickly rise up in the circle and have more freedom and responsibility than ever before. For all we know through her, Academies of Magic can develop now that Mages can utilize the circles in a better way and regain the trust of the people. There can be learned Mages who can teach the youth and foster the future mages of Thedas. Given the history of Thedas, it is not feasible to disband the circles and declare all mages free without any institution of some sort they can turn to.

 

Ignoring who becomes divine... If you side with the Mages, Fiona will create a free mage college of enchanters but I don't see her as a strong leader and without the institutions and resources of the Chantry how will they even sustain themselves. Maybe she'll start a mom and pop type of organization in some cabin in the woods that can grow but I doubt it. It will take years for that to even take root.

 

Also Vivienne does not explicitly talk about other races in relation to the circles and chantries. Who says she does not invite them in? She states that she was a great admirer of Justinia and had she lived she could unite the disparate cultures of Thedas. I think Vivienne would be no different.

 

Divine Vivtoria all the way!

That being said we can't really fight over epilogues, the bad ones at least. It's kind of silly to pit a terrible world state against another terrible one because regardless they're both terrible. And of course some epilogues are extremely unfavorable especially when a divine is elected with no support from the inquisition(low approval with inquisitor). If you're going to do it, pit the world states that you believe have the most beneficial outcomes against each other and see what would be best for all.

 

I still believe even with all Divines at their best Vivienne is a much better candidate especially with a side with the Templars, high approval Vivienne considering what I quoted from myself especially the bolded parts. 

[Kakistos_]

Okay, some of what I will say has already been said by others (but I'll just repeat it anyway ).

 

Firstly, no-one should be shocked about Vivienne's opinions because she tells you her Circle stance from the outset. She gives us a pro-circle point of view as a mage and she does this by giving a logical, rational argument. I like the fact that she is resolute in her beliefs and is not influenced by the inquisitor/anyone else.

 

Vivienne acknowledges that there are abuses of power with the current system but it is better to fix the Circle system rather than create new problems with a completely new system. Vivienne is a character that supports the mages and sees the worth of having Templars around (I think she refers to Templars as a tools to be used). So she isn't a massive fan of the Templars but she can see they're a necessity and have an important role against magical dangers. I don't think Vivienne is absolutely against mage freedom but it should be a gradual change rather than instantaneous.

 

Vivienne wasn't awarded power overnight. She worked extremely hard by playing 'The Game' and playing this game as an outsider (Non-Orlesian). She is ambitious but this can be viewed as a positive because it shows she works hard and is motivated to achieve her goals.

 

When speaking to Vivienne about becoming Divine, I don't feel that she is trying to manipulate you in choosing her. In fact, my inquisitor suggested her name before she even put her hat in the ring. I also don't believe that Vivienne had a secret ambition to be Divine. Vivienne accepts the inquisitor's recommendation because there is no suitable alternative.

 

If she is Divine, she grants more freedoms to the mages (but we don't know how far this freedom extends) so she does care about her fellow mages. If she was just looking out for herself then she could have just reinstated the Circles, then sit on the throne and done nothing.

 

Overall I think Vivienne as a Divine could work. She restores the institutions of the Circle, Templars and Chantry and she is familiar on how they operate so she knows what needs improving. I believe the Circle system can work and it is useful in training mages. This system needs rational and sane people on both the mages and Templars side to prevent incidents like Kirkwall. The Circles must have been doing something right to survive for centuries. Vivienne has a strong influence on the Templars and this can be viewed as a good thing. The Templar reputation among the faithful will be at an all time low because they have just rebelled against the Chantry. So Vivienne will need to be seen as being in control to restore this lost confidence. She has them on a tight leash so if there is a faulty Templar 'tool' then she will replace it. She also has experience of being a mage in the Circle and will be the first Divine what has had first hand experience of the system. Vivienne as a Divine could become an inspiration to the mages and the faithful (because she would be a bridging connection between the two) and this consequently could change people's view on mages as a whole. If public perception of mages is more favourable then Vivienne in theory can grant more freedoms in the future.

 

Vivienne can come across as self-serving and arrogant and this is due to the Orlesian culture. She needs to keep up appearances in order to not look weak and maintain her reputation. However, her true inner feelings are sometimes shown and it shows a softer side. For example, Vivienne is the only companion to ask the inquisitor how they were feeling after Adamant and the Well. She also gives approval if you save the people at Haven so she does show concern about other's feelings. Vivienne could have easily sat back in the palace but decided to join the inquisitor to be proactive and fight for what she believes in.

 

I saw a post about what would she do for non-human believers to discourage discrimination. You could make this as an argument against Justinia or the Chantry as an organisation as a whole. This would not be Vivienne's problem until after she is made Divine. If Vivienne does become Divine, it would be just speculation at this point on what would happen but who's to say that she won't grant further freedoms like she did with the mages.

 

Furthermore, mages wouldn't be locked away in the Circle. Vivienne says that permission from the First Enchanter is needed to leave the Circle. I don't know how often this permission was granted but the important fact is that such a permission exists. Therefore, Vivienne isn't a hypocrite because she's taking advantage of existing rules.

 

The most convincing argument against Vivienne would be disliking her due to her personality or she is too conservative in her reforms (although this is still speculation as the reforms weren't given in detail).  

 

Vivienne is most certainly a hypocrite when it comes to her views on the Mage/Templar dynamic. She possess access and privileges that most Mages do not have. She, as far as we know, has never had to suffer rape, beatings, neglect, permanent confinement and thoughts of suicide as many other Mages have yet complains that they are being selfish. She and some on this forum seem to believe that the Mage Templar war began as a result of and exclusively Anders/Justice's actions. It did not. Anders' actions were the straw that broke the camel's back after centuries of systematic abuse.

 

There she sits in the Imperial Court with her voice in the Empress' ear and she has the gall to say "By all means, protests abuses by the Templars" so nonchalantly as if no one had considered that before. She brings up Anders and Fiona in the same conversation ignoring the fact that they did protests, but as the relationship between jailor and prisoner goes nothing came of it. Fiona wanted a simple vote and was put in a cell because of it. She had absolutely no other recourse.

 

During that same event a Mage surrendering to the Templars was killed and even pro-Circle Wynne had to fight as the Templars and chantry left her no other choice. Anders didn't just walk into Kirkwall on day one, point and say, "I'm going to blow up that building", he tried for YEARS to get the Chantry to see the Mages side but when they said nothing for neutrality's sake he had no recourse. Orsino tried for YEARS to do the same but Meredith called for the Rite of Annulment even before Anders' actions and with absolutely no recourse could only wait to be killed. Vivienne knows damn well that protests by Mages go NOWHERE. Protests by HER powerful paramour however...

 

If you ally with the Mages she immediately calls for them to be watched and more Templars trained in the event of Abominations stating that Mages have known no greater threat than the Breach. Up until that point, where her personal interests become threatened, she had not shown an ounce of concern for her own, Solas' or a Mage Inquisitors safety in regards to Possession. The Mages help seal the Breach and no such Possessions occur.

 

Recall that she volunteered to fight on the front lines and not once did she ever have any Templars near should she spontaneously transform into an Abomination. In banter with Cole, Cole reveals that Vivienne is (shocker) lying and that she doesn't need protection. She acknowledges this truth this by saying "It does learn.". She is playing the Game. She cares about herself, not her fellow Mages. One does not "crush" people they care about

[Darkstarr11]

Recall that she volunteered to fight on the front lines and not once did she ever have any Templars near should she spontaneously transform into an Abomination. In banter with Cole, Cole reveals that Vivienne is (shocker) lying and that she doesn't need protection. She acknowledges this truth this by saying "It does learn.". She is playing the Game. She cares about herself, not her fellow Mages. One does not "crush" people they care about.

 

Of COURSE there are people like that!  

 

We call them Sith.  

 

 

Vivienne would fit right in!  

[MrGDL87]

Just before I reply, I forgot to mention that my previous comment relates to allying with the Templars and having high Vivienne approval.

 

Vivienne is most certainly a hypocrite when it comes to her views on the Mage/Templar dynamic. She possess access and privileges that most Mages do not have. She, as far as we know, has never had to suffer rape, beatings, neglect, permanent confinement and thoughts of suicide as many other Mages have yet complains that they are being selfish. She and some on this forum seem to believe that the Mage Templar war began as a result of and exclusively Anders/Justice's actions. It did not. Anders' actions were the straw that broke the camel's back after centuries of systematic abuse.

 

There she sits in the Imperial Court with her voice in the Empress' ear and she has the gall to say "By all means, protests abuses by the Templars" so nonchalantly as if no one had considered that before. She brings up Anders and Fiona in the same conversation ignoring the fact that they did protests, but as the relationship between jailor and prisoner goes nothing came of it. Fiona wanted a simple vote and was put in a cell because of it. She had absolutely no other recourse.

 

During that same event a Mage surrendering to the Templars was killed and even pro-Circle Wynne had to fight as the Templars and chantry left her no other choice. Anders didn't just walk into Kirkwall on day one, point and say, "I'm going to blow up that building", he tried for YEARS to get the Chantry to see the Mages side but when they said nothing for neutrality's sake he had no recourse. Orsino tried for YEARS to do the same but Meredith called for the Rite of Annulment even before Anders' actions and with absolutely no recourse could only wait to be killed. Vivienne knows damn well that protests by Mages go NOWHERE. Protests by HER powerful paramour however...

 

If you ally with the Mages she immediately calls for them to be watched and more Templars trained in the event of Abominations stating that Mages have known no greater threat than the Breach. Up until that point, where her personal interests become threatened, she had not shown an ounce of concern for her own, Solas' or a Mage Inquisitors safety in regards to Possession. The Mages help seal the Breach and no such Possessions occur.

 

Recall that she volunteered to fight on the front lines and not once did she ever have any Templars near should she spontaneously transform into an Abomination. In banter with Cole, Cole reveals that Vivienne is (shocker) lying and that she doesn't need protection. She acknowledges this truth this by saying "It does learn.". She is playing the Game. She cares about herself, not her fellow Mages. One does not "crush" people they care about

 

I still don't see the hypocrite argument. Vivienne is an example of a mage who started at the bottom (as an apprentice) and worked her way up to earn a position of privilege. She did this under existing Circle rules so in theory any other mages in the Circle could follow her footsteps. Vivienne doesn't condone the horrible acts of rape, beatings etc, she says the rebels are selfish because of the inopportune timing of the rebellion. The rebellion casts all mages in a negative light (including Vivienne herself) to the general public as a whole.

 

Vivienne did have the ear of Celene as an advisor but she couldn't force Celene's hand to reform. I suppose Vivienne could have brought the subject up with Celene but who is to say she didn't. Celene has to keep her reputation up with the Orlesian Empire and if she wanted to grant more freedoms for the mages then the common man on the street may view this as a sign of weakness. I am not saying this is a good thing but Orlais is obsessed with reputation. 

 

I can't really comment on Vivienne as a Divine when siding with the mages because I haven't experienced this outcome (I got Leliana when siding with the mages). Vivienne would have to put down the rebels because they were threatening the stability of the land and the Chantry itself. She would have put down this rebellion no matter if it were mages, humans, nobles, Qunari etc. She quelled the rebellion to protect the people against future chaos and instability. You could say it was to protect her personal position but I just don't see it that way.

Vivienne did show concern towards the inquisitor when they returned from Adamant and the Well.

 

I can't argue that Vivienne doesn't have her own Templar guard on personal watch but she does have Cullen nearby. I am not saying Vivienne is perfect and she obviously has some flaws (like trying to keep up appearances non-stop which give her an ice queen demeanour) but I still don't buy the fact she is a hypocrite and completely uncaring.

 

We will probably just have to agree to disagree   
 

[Toasted Llama]

If you ally with the Mages she immediately calls for them to be watched and more Templars trained in the event of Abominations stating that Mages have known no greater threat than the Breach. Up until that point, where her personal interests become threatened, she had not shown an ounce of concern for her own, Solas' or a Mage Inquisitors safety in regards to Possession. The Mages help seal the Breach and no such Possessions occur.

 

Recall that she volunteered to fight on the front lines and not once did she ever have any Templars near should she spontaneously transform into an Abomination. In banter with Cole, Cole reveals that Vivienne is (shocker) lying and that she doesn't need protection. She acknowledges this truth this by saying "It does learn.". She is playing the Game. She cares about herself, not her fellow Mages. One does not "crush" people they care about

 

You do realize that with a much larger group of people, the chance of someone turning into an abomination becomes bigger, right?

 

And when you have Vivienne, Solas and the Inquisitor run around, you've also got Cullen and Cassandra (Seekers are capable to counter templars and mages) running around. The Inquisitor is even a "maybe" mage, so it's 2.5 mages versus 2 mage-counters.

 

It's really obvious why Vivienne only voices a concern regarding a lack of templar supervision when you recruit the mages; the current amount of anti-mage individuals in the Inquisition can't handle that many.

[andy6915]

You know what is ironic about Vivienne? She thinks the breach means mages are more in danger than ever of possession... But it's the complete opposite. Mages are less in danger when the breach is open than probably any other time in history since the veil began. Why? Demons possess because it's normally the only way into our world, you're not getting to see the mortal world without possession. But the breach changed that. If a spirit or demon wanted to go to the mortal world, all they had to do was walk. The mortal world was like going to the market down the road, all you have to do is leave your home and walk a little ways. Demons don't care to possess mages anymore when the breach is in effect, because they don't need mages to enter the mortal world anymore. Did you notice that there wasn't a single abomination in the entirety of DAI? Not. Even. One. Mages became no more in danger of being possessed than a non-mage thanks to the breach making it as easy as opening a door or walking a few steps for demons to enter our world.

 

So Vivienne's hypothesis of mages being "in more danger than ever" was not just wrong, it was backwards.

[Toasted Llama]

You know what is ironic about Vivienne? She thinks the breach means mages are more in danger than ever of possession... But it's the complete opposite. Mages are less in danger when the breach is open than probably any other time in history since the veil began. Why? Demons possess because it's normally the only way into our world, you're not getting to see the mortal world without possession. But the breach changed that. If a spirit or demon wanted to go to the mortal world, all they had to do was walk. The mortal world was like going to the market down the road, all you have to do is leave your home and walk a little ways. Demons don't care to possess mages anymore when the breach is in effect, because they don't need mages to enter the mortal world anymore. Did you notice that there wasn't a single abomination in the entirety of DAI? Not. Even. One. Mages became no more in danger of being possessed than a non-mage thanks to the breach making it as easy as opening a door or walking a few steps for demons to enter our world.

 

So Vivienne's hypothesis of mages being "in more danger than ever" was not just wrong, it was backwards.

 

I believe the demons were "forced" out and didn't like it or used to be spirits. There was something more complex to the breach thing.

[andy6915]

I believe the demons were "forced" out and didn't like it or used to be spirits. There was something more complex to the breach thing.

 

Some were forced through, yes. Some chose to walk through. I guess the entrance to our world was more like a giant whirlpool or like what happens when a space ship has a hole appear in it and everything gets sucked out due to compression, rather than a door. Some get sucked through by accident, but a fair number saw the "hole in the space ship" and ran for it on purpose for the sake of getting pulled through.

[Vit246]

Is it telling that there wasn't a single abomination in DAI or did Bioware simply forgot about them?

[teh DRUMPf!!]

 It is truly remarkable how many people manage to get the opinions wrong of a character they seem to feel so strongly about. You would think they would feel inclined to get the opinions right before they rail against it, but it appears most people just see her disapproval when they say "mages should be free" (why would you even say something like this to a representative of the Circle??) and fill in the rest with their own assumptions.

 

I for one can barely muster up the effort to stay in these discussions. Usually I am just repeating myself, pointing things out that contradict their claims about Vivienne, and the response is basically "..." before somebody else parrots the same misrepresentation of Vivienne's position.

 

Meanwhile, SolASS makes BS claims about the Fade/spirits and nobody bats an eye.

[Darkstarr11]

 It is truly remarkable how many people manage to get the opinions wrong of a character they seem to feel so strongly about. You would think they would feel inclined to get the opinions right before they rail against it, but it appears most people just see her disapproval when they say "mages should be free" (why would you even say something like this to a representative of the Circle??) and fill in the rest with their own assumptions.

 

I for one can barely muster up the effort to stay in these discussions. Usually I am just repeating myself, pointing things out that contradict their claims about Vivienne, and the response is basically "..." before somebody else parrots the same misrepresentation of Vivienne's position.

 

Meanwhile, SolASS makes BS claims about the Fade/spirits and nobody bats an eye.

 

It's hard to get an opinion 'wrong' per se.  An opinion is formed from experience, norms, education, political or religious belief and various other factors.  It would be foolhardy at best to shed oneself of all their experiences simply to join with the opinion of another without significant study.  I for one am here because I enjoy the debate.  Few here will change my mind, I know that.  Yet, merely engaging in the process is stimulating.  In many ways for me, it is less about understanding Vivienne, and more about my fellow gamers.  Be that they loathe her for her positions and shout out with a gusto 'Vivi sucks!  Die Vivi Die!' or they lavish praise upon her for her willingness to stand on a position that may be controversial, or one that agrees with their personal views, it is enjoyable to see.  The vast amount of differing views is amazing, is it not?  To see a character that stirs such emotions is quite an achievement!  I applaud such.  

 

Now, having said that, the opinion might not be 'wrong'...but what we base that opinion upon could be extraneous or exceedingly erroneous in nature.  As such the source could provide us with a view that necessitates a re-evaluation...at times resulting in an entirely NEW persuasion.  Like shedding old clothing because we outgrew them, or found them to be too worn to be of use.  

 

Solas is down right terrifying.  I don't think he has made ANY BS claims.  I think he's holding back a LOT.  He peppers his information with truths to keep you vested, but I think his endgame will be so horrific due to the fact that he TRULY believes that he's doing the right thing.  PRIDE, right?  He and Viv aren't so different.  Except...unlike her, Solas is just getting started.  His plans are far more grand in scope...I think once we know what he is really up to, Viv won't even be but a drop in the pail.  A footnote in history.  His good intentions may result in the cessation of existence for those in Thedas...AND the Fade.

 

Assuming of course that there IS any history after he is done...

[Reznore57]

 

Solas is down right terrifying.  I don't think he has made ANY BS claims.  I think he's holding back a LOT.  He peppers his information with truths to keep you vested, but I think his endgame will be so horrific due to the fact that he TRULY believes that he's doing the right thing.  PRIDE, right?  He and Viv aren't so different.  Except...unlike her, Solas is just getting started.  His plans are far more grand in scope...I think once we know what he is really up to, Viv won't even be but a drop in the pail.  A footnote in history.  His good intentions may result in the cessation of existence for those in Thedas...AND the Fade.

 

Assuming of course that there IS any history after he is done...

 

Oh he makes bullshit claims all the time.

Basically he says the whole demon thing is all mortals faults , if mortals could control their emotions everything would be fine...

Well I'm glad Solas is a Zen master ,  he had thousand of years to go meditate in the fade , and he's probably one of the most powerful mage alive...so of course what works for him is going to work for everyone , right?

 

Besides when you face the Nightmare he goes on to explain Fear is one of the oldest emotion .

As far as I know this demon grew this big without direct input from mortals , nobody tried to bind it or use it or whatever.

So yeah it's going to be great without the veil!

 

I also like one of his banter with Vivienne when she asks him what would he do about maleficar etc...and Solas goes "Well you kill them".You don't say , Solas.

[Sports72Xtrm]

Just before I reply, I forgot to mention that my previous comment relates to allying with the Templars and having high Vivienne approval.

 

 

I still don't see the hypocrite argument. Vivienne is an example of a mage who started at the bottom (as an apprentice) and worked her way up to earn a position of privilege. She did this under existing Circle rules so in theory any other mages in the Circle could follow her footsteps. Vivienne doesn't condone the horrible acts of rape, beatings etc, she says the rebels are selfish because of the inopportune timing of the rebellion. The rebellion casts all mages in a negative light (including Vivienne herself) to the general public as a whole.

 

 

First let me address her point about the rebel mages rebelling at an inopportune time. Let me remind everyone that this occurred because of Kirkwall. The Circle that kept mages imprisoned, locked up, raped, denied appearances at court to air out their grievances. The abuses were ignored by the seekers and elthina and the chantry did not hold the seekers accountable for the corruption because they feared a power vacuum. Isn't that the context of the situation? And after Kirkwall, the templars responded by censoring the Circle's outrage, denying them from congregating and discussing the abuse, and threatening them with Tranquility for anyone who speaks out against it. Would Vivienne even be aware of the abuses had the Circle not rebelled or would she have blithely ignored it so long as her idyllic lifestyle remained unaffected? We've seen how "protesting against abuses" went when Orsino tried to appeal to the Kirkwall nobility and even Elthina to hold the templars accountable to the abuses. The Templars respond with more abuse, Elthina will tell everyone to shut up in the politest way and sees inaction as the best course to address the dysfunction. Templars close ranks, Chantry does nothing out of fear of war, mages get abused and will resort to violence and terrorism out of desperation. When was there ever going to be an opportune time for the mages to address the abuses when they are censored, marginalized, ostracized, and oppressed in every way? That is the hypocrisy of Vivienne's view point. She spouts platitudes to shame the mage rebels for taking initiative when it was the only course granted to them. It's different for her since she has privileges and is not censored or confined to a circle. And why does she have these priveleges? Because Vivienne toes the oppressors' line. The mage rebels know the abuse would never stop unless they responded in a way for the rest of Thedas to take notice.

 

 

 

 

Vivienne did have the ear of Celene as an advisor but she couldn't force Celene's hand to reform. I suppose Vivienne could have brought the subject up with Celene but who is to say she didn't. Celene has to keep her reputation up with the Orlesian Empire and if she wanted to grant more freedoms for the mages then the common man on the street may view this as a sign of weakness. I am not saying this is a good thing but Orlais is obsessed with reputation. 

 

I can't really comment on Vivienne as a Divine when siding with the mages because I haven't experienced this outcome (I got Leliana when siding with the mages). Vivienne would have to put down the rebels because they were threatening the stability of the land and the Chantry itself. She would have put down this rebellion no matter if it were mages, humans, nobles, Qunari etc. She quelled the rebellion to protect the people against future chaos and instability. You could say it was to protect her personal position but I just don't see it that way.

Vivienne did show concern towards the inquisitor when they returned from Adamant and the Well.

 

I can't argue that Vivienne doesn't have her own Templar guard on personal watch but she does have Cullen nearby. I am not saying Vivienne is perfect and she obviously has some flaws (like trying to keep up appearances non-stop which give her an ice queen demeanour) but I still don't buy the fact she is a hypocrite and completely uncaring.

 

We will probably just have to agree to disagree    

Ok let's assume Vivienne threw the mage rebels under the bus but for a reason, that there was a method to her madness. Perhaps she could gain the status of Divine only if she appealed to the zealotry of non-mage bigotry determined to subdue mage defiance. She has to show the conservatives she's one of them right? Now is this part of the facade? Is she earning the conservatives' trust until she earns enough power to make things better? Or is she a templar quisling who only cares that her privileges are ensured? That's the question. Is she Vidkun Quisling or Emperor Palpatine? If a templar abuses a circle, will she remain silent like elthina or put the templars in their place? And the seekers who divorced the templars from the chantry, will they answer for their defiance or will she consolidate her power and annhilate the seeker order so her templars aren't guided to rebellion as Lambert Van Reeves had done? If it's the latter then yes maybe she did care for the mages and she did some unsightly things to garner power and make things better for her mages. If it's the former, then yes, she's a hypocrite quisling spouting platitudes to suppress unrest and getting cozy with oppressors in order to benefit only herself.

[teh DRUMPf!!]

It's hard to get an opinion 'wrong' per se.  An opinion is formed from experience, norms, education, political or religious belief and various other factors.  It would be foolhardy at best to shed oneself of all their experiences simply to join with the opinion of another without significant study.  I for one am here because I enjoy the debate.

No, no. What I am referring to, when I say "get the opinions wrong," is the staggering number of Vivienne detractors who state "Vivienne thinks/says [x]" and proceed to argue against it, when in reality Vivienne thinks/says [y] (and basically addresses the very arguments those people made against her for [x]).

And yes -- though this is beside the point I am trying to make -- people most certainly can be wrong in an opinion. Such as opinions based off of misconceptions.
 

 

I don't think he has made ANY BS claims.

No one batting an eye at BS: Exhibit A.

[teh DRUMPf!!]

She has to show the conservatives she's one of them right? Now is this part of the facade? Is she earning the conservatives' trust until she earns enough power to make things better?

 

I definitely think she is looking to take power to improve things, only, not all mages agree on what that means.

[Sports72Xtrm]

I definitely think she is looking to take power to improve things, only, not all mages agree on what that means.

Yes but improve things for who?

[Darkstarr11]

Oh he makes bullshit claims all the time.

Basically he says the whole demon thing is all mortals faults , if mortals could control their emotions everything would be fine...

Well I'm glad Solas is a Zen master ,  he had thousand of years to go meditate in the fade , and he's probably one of the most powerful mage alive...so of course what works for him is going to work for everyone , right?

 

Besides when you face the Nightmare he goes on to explain Fear is one of the oldest emotion .

As far as I know this demon grew this big without direct input from mortals , nobody tried to bind it or use it or whatever.

So yeah it's going to be great without the veil!

 

I also like one of his banter with Vivienne when she asks him what would he do about maleficar etc...and Solas goes "Well you kill them".You don't say , Solas.

 

Which, by the way, is his OPINION.   According to HIM, it would work.  He advises caution in dealings with Spirits...take him to fight Ishmael.  He outright says its okay to listen, but trust is something different.  

 

'Justinia' tells you it grew big by feeding off the fears of all living things.  Especially after it joined up with the Elder One.  'She' provided that bit of info.  I don't remember her lying either.  In fact, she seems to go out of her way to be as truthful as possible.  She just happens to leave some parts ambiguous so as to NOT lie.

 

I don't know that bit of dialogue. Hmmm, on my next play through, I'll keep the two together, see if I can get that.  Interesting....

 

No, no. What I am referring to, when I say "get the opinions wrong," is the staggering number of Vivienne detractors who state "Vivienne thinks/says [x]" and proceed to argue against it, when in reality Vivienne thinks/says [y] (and basically addresses the very arguments those people made against her for [x]).

And yes -- though this is beside the point I am trying to make -- people most certainly can be wrong in an opinion. Such as opinions based off of misconceptions.
 

 

No one batting an eye at BS: Exhibit A.

 

I can understand that.  I can also understand your frustration at finding yourself going up against the same arguments over and over.  Yet people will disagree.  No two people see everything exactly the same.  Hence my comment about opinions.  Many people hold their opinions as something core about them.  This forms the basis of who they are.  By going out of our way to say 'your opinion is WRONG' in many ways attacks that person not on what they think, but WHO they ARE.  It implies that THEY are the problem, rather than in the information itself.  A misconception is an error of knowledge, not a defect of character.

 

Also, BS implies that the individual, or individual is INTENTIONALLY snowballing you.  IF their information is suspect, then yes, that is correct.  If they actually believe it...does that still hold true?

 

I definitely think she is looking to take power to improve things, only, not all mages agree on what that means.

 

Correct.  It comes down to opinions.  In fact, IF Viv actually believes that she IS helping everyone, it would be her belief, or OPINION that is the core of the disagreement.  UNLESS she knows that she's only in it for herself, which is the core of the debate at hand.

 

 

And yes, I'm aware I'm dancing around the truth like J-Lo with a back up dancer, but that's kinda my point.  An individual can be totally wrong without at any point ACTUALLY being malicious in intent yet still represent something false or erroneous.  Yet they can also APPEAR to be incorrect whilst being quite the opposite.  Accepting that each argument has merit from its point of origin, even without actually accepting it as true, AND accepting that it may or may not be palatable to ones own tastes is how we foster understanding.  To me, I am correct.  Based on my experiences and understanding, I can look at Vivienne and state WHY I do not agree with her, state my opinion and at no point can my opinion be negated by a single argument.  I must concede that my information may not be valid in light of the information of another.  Yet it does not detract from my belief.  I can respect another for their opinion without accepting it in the least.  In fact, that is EXACTLY what makes Vivienne such a fascinating character, does it not?  It's also why I preferred the rivalry/friendship system from DAII.  Agree to disagree was my favorite aspect of that game.  DAI went a step backward, IMHO.  It smacked of close mindedness.  Agree with me or else.  No understanding or acceptance or tolerance at all.  

 

Of course, all this boils down to my opinion.    Remember, as I said, I'm here for the debate.  THAT'S what amuses ME.  Then again, I'm certain the Joker and the Reaper totally are cool with THEIR opinions too...

[DuskWanderer]

First let me address her point about the rebel mages rebelling at an inopportune time. Let me remind everyone that this occurred because of Kirkwall. The Circle that kept mages imprisoned, locked up, raped, denied appearances at court to air out their grievances. The abuses were ignored by the seekers and elthina and the chantry did not hold the seekers accountable for the corruption because they feared a power vacuum. Isn't that the context of the situation? And after Kirkwall, the templars responded by censoring the Circle's outrage, denying them from congregating and discussing the abuse, and threatening them with Tranquility for anyone who speaks out against it. Would Vivienne even be aware of the abuses had the Circle not rebelled or would she have blithely ignored it so long as her idyllic lifestyle remained unaffected? We've seen how "protesting against abuses" went when Orsino tried to appeal to the Kirkwall nobility and even Elthina to hold the templars accountable to the abuses. The Templars respond with more abuse, Elthina will tell everyone to shut up in the politest way and sees inaction as the best course to address the dysfunction. Templars close ranks, Chantry does nothing out of fear of war, mages get abused and will resort to violence and terrorism out of desperation. When was there ever going to be an opportune time for the mages to address the abuses when they are censored, marginalized, ostracized, and oppressed in every way? That is the hypocrisy of Vivienne's view point. She spouts platitudes to shame the mage rebels for taking initiative when it was the only course granted to them. It's different for her since she has privileges and is not censored or confined to a circle. And why does she have these priveleges? Because Vivienne toes the oppressors' line. The mage rebels know the abuse would never stop unless they responded in a way for the rest of Thedas to take notice.

 

Ok let's assume Vivienne threw the mage rebels under the bus but for a reason, that there was a method to her madness. Perhaps she could gain the status of Divine only if she appealed to the zealotry of non-mage bigotry determined to subdue mage defiance. She has to show the conservatives she's one of them right? Now is this part of the facade? Is she earning the conservatives' trust until she earns enough power to make things better? Or is she a templar quisling who only cares that her privileges are ensured? That's the question. Is she Vidkun Quisling or Emperor Palpatine? If a templar abuses a circle, will she remain silent like elthina or put the templars in their place? And the seekers who divorced the templars from the chantry, will they answer for their defiance or will she consolidate her power and annhilate the seeker order so her templars aren't guided to rebellion as Lambert Van Reeves had done? If it's the latter then yes maybe she did care for the mages and she did some unsightly things to garner power and make things better for her mages. If it's the former, then yes, she's a hypocrite quisling spouting platitudes to suppress unrest and getting cozy with oppressors in order to benefit only herself.

 

Murdering a bunch of innocent people, trying to assassinate the Divine, all of Adrian's crap...that's the response? It was the mages, not the templars, who blew up Kirkwall's Chantry. 

 

You blithely ignore everything the mages did, and assume everything that happened to isolated incidents (I'll remind you that all of the raping and brutalizing happened from ONE templar, who was killed. Meredith didn't start on it until after the idol drove her insane, and even then, she didn't rape anyone. More to the point, she was RIGHT about the blood magic.) 

[Darkstarr11]

Murdering a bunch of innocent people, trying to assassinate the Divine, all of Adrian's crap...that's the response? It was the mages, not the templars, who blew up Kirkwall's Chantry. 

 

You blithely ignore everything the mages did, and assume everything that happened to isolated incidents (I'll remind you that all of the raping and brutalizing happened from ONE templar, who was killed. Meredith didn't start on it until after the idol drove her insane, and even then, she didn't rape anyone. More to the point, she was RIGHT about the blood magic.) 

 

Actually Cullen mentions that from the start Meredith was encouraging extreme views.  During his romance arc, he tells the Inquisitor that she nurtured harsh views, but locked him out of the loop when it came to the more vicious methods.  Also, she was said to 'wield the brand' for very petty reasons.  She violated the rules by making mages who passed their Harrowing Tranquil.  It also WASN'T just one Templar.  Listening to background dialogue as you walk through the Gallows, you hear about it.  Alrik was just the worst of the lot.  Both Lambert and Martel were complicit in trying to remove the Divine.  

 

And it wasn't the MAGES...it was a MAGE.  Anders.  He ALONE did that.  That was the height of the hypocrisy.  Meredith condemned innocents based on what ONE apostate did.  Was their blood magic?  Hawke lampshades it.  'Can't I go one week without fighting blood mages?'  It was grey and grey in Kirkwall.  NO side was morally superior.  Adrian was evil, but so was Lambert.  Lambert WANTED the mages dead.  Adrian wanted bloodshed as well.  Are you saying that ONE murderer is better than the other?  No, of course not.  Yet we really can't defend either side.  

[DuskWanderer]

Actually Cullen mentions that from the start Meredith was encouraging extreme views.  During his romance arc, he tells the Inquisitor that she nurtured harsh views, but locked him out of the loop when it came to the more vicious methods.  Also, she was said to 'wield the brand' for very petty reasons.  She violated the rules by making mages who passed their Harrowing Tranquil.  It also WASN'T just one Templar.  Listening to background dialogue as you walk through the Gallows, you hear about it.  Alrik was just the worst of the lot.  Both Lambert and Martel were complicit in trying to remove the Divine.  

 

And it wasn't the MAGES...it was a MAGE.  Anders.  He ALONE did that.  That was the height of the hypocrisy.  Meredith condemned innocents based on what ONE apostate did.  Was their blood magic?  Hawke lampshades it.  'Can't I go one week without fighting blood mages?'  It was grey and grey in Kirkwall.  NO side was morally superior.  Adrian was evil, but so was Lambert.  Lambert WANTED the mages dead.  Adrian wanted bloodshed as well.  Are you saying that ONE murderer is better than the other?  No, of course not.  Yet we really can't defend either side.  

 

Cullen can say "Meredith was encouraging extreme views", but we never see what those were. More to the point, the mages WERE actually conspiring. Chapter Three in DA2 has that as it's main focal point. And the mages don't have the excuse of the red lyrium idol: Meredith was insane, but that was the point: She was literally insane. The mages like Grace no such excuse, they just wanted to murder. I see no evidence that Meredith personally wielded the brand until she went nuts, as it was Alrik all the Tranquil talked about. 

 

When it comes down to it, I look at the actions of the groups. The mages willingly joined the Venatori, whereas the templars were either tricked or forced. Loyalists were slaughtered by the mages when they didn't want to rebel, we see no evidence of that with the templars. Meredith and Orsino were both equally bad examples, but Meredith, at the very least, was doing her job: She is supposed to rout out blood magic. Orsino broke every rule and had no excuse. 

 

The templars could have been better, yes. But so could the mages. And the mages fell far worse. Look at the change of how the final section plays out in DA2. The templars rescue innocent mages who surrender, and only the crazy Meredith wants to kill them (and even then, she relents to question them first). By contrast, the mages do nothing but get slaughter by Orsino and summon a bunch of demons. 

[Bayonet Hipshot]

Vivienne is, first and foremost, a politician.

 

Politicians are masters of manipulation. They usually say something or act in a certain way in order to get a particular group of people to support them to gain power.

 

VIvienne is no different. She says the things she says and acts the way she does because she wants the support of the nobility and the commoners in order to gain power. I highly doubt that she actually cares about the fate of the common people, their collective concerns are merely tools for her to gain power.

 

As for how valuable she is, I think that she is very valuable. That is, if you know what you are doing and who you are dealing with. Its like in real life if you end up working together with a career politician. It could be highly beneficial, if you understand the nature and behavior of that career politician.

 

Personally, Vivienne is best dealt with by being nice to her and if you choose to ally with the mages, have some Templars around to watch them. Next, do the Circle quests to recover the items. Then, bring her to the Winter Palace mission, she is most useful there. Do not bring her to the Adamant Fortress however. Last but not least, do not outright reject her push to become Divine but instead support Leliana or Cassandra.

[SgtSteel91]

I'm just really curious at what Vivienne, if she has high approval with the Inquisitor, would do in a post-Corypheus world where Leliana is elected Divine and the Free Mages reform the College of Enchanters. She believes that it's all going to cause a mess she'll have to clean up but what does that mean? She'll begrudgingly support the Inquisitor and Leliana's vision, out of respect for her friend, and try to make sure the Free Mages pull off their new system without pissing everyone off, as Iron Bull put it? Or would she try to push to reinstate the Circle system?

[Darkstarr11]

Cullen can say "Meredith was encouraging extreme views", but we never see what those were. More to the point, the mages WERE actually conspiring. Chapter Three in DA2 has that as it's main focal point. And the mages don't have the excuse of the red lyrium idol: Meredith was insane, but that was the point: She was literally insane. The mages like Grace no such excuse, they just wanted to murder. I see no evidence that Meredith personally wielded the brand until she went nuts, as it was Alrik all the Tranquil talked about. 

 

When it comes down to it, I look at the actions of the groups. The mages willingly joined the Venatori, whereas the templars were either tricked or forced. Loyalists were slaughtered by the mages when they didn't want to rebel, we see no evidence of that with the templars. Meredith and Orsino were both equally bad examples, but Meredith, at the very least, was doing her job: She is supposed to rout out blood magic. Orsino broke every rule and had no excuse. 

 

The templars could have been better, yes. But so could the mages. And the mages fell far worse. Look at the change of how the final section plays out in DA2. The templars rescue innocent mages who surrender, and only the crazy Meredith wants to kill them (and even then, she relents to question them first). By contrast, the mages do nothing but get slaughter by Orsino and summon a bunch of demons. 

 

True, all we have is Cullen's word, but he's proven trustworthy.  Cassandra also tells you that there were reports about abuses from Kirkwall, but the Seekers didn't seem too interested in investigating.  Neither of them have ANY reason to lie to you.  Plus, Cassandra is Pro-Templar, not Pro-Mage.  Why would she fudge accounts on their behalf?

 

Okay, I have to say, mentioning Grace was a masterstroke.  If there was EVERY a mage who was the poster child for 'EVIL BLOOD MAGE', she'd be it.  Ungrateful, psychotic, ax-crazy abomination loving monster.  She was evil.  I CAN'T argue against that.  I mean, she took the ONE chance that the mages had for reconciliation and BLEW it because she had an UTTERLY irrational grudge against Hawke.  She and her VERY dead boyfriend had NO ONE to blame but themselves and they got what they deserved.  Heck, they managed to drag down numerous mages AND Templars with them!  Seriously, I thought mages were SUPPOSED to have an education...apparently she skipped Kirkwall Survival 101:  Don't mess with Hawke and Company...like EVER!

 

Again, the mages DIDN'T start the war.  That was Lambert.  He was ITCHING for an excuse.  The mages merely voted for independence...WITH the Divine's blessing.  Lambert decided that he didn't want that, OR the knowledge about reversing Tranquility to get out and decided the mages HAD to die.  First shot came from the Templars.  The Seekers dissolved the Nevarran Accord.  The Templars joined up.  Red Lyrium came later.  Most mages fled to Redcliffe and asked Ferelden for help.  Some rogue mages AND Templars stayed out to get payback, but most of the mages ran and hid.  Sure, Fiona was a complete idiot and trusted the Venatori.  Still, remember that the Elder One was pulling ALL their strings.  The Red Lyrium AND the Venatori were working for HIM.  

 

Now, AFTER it blew up?  Yes, there were mages who made it worse.  That loon from Ostwick in the Tavern...the one who defended Tevinter like crazy and in the bad future became a blood mage?  I DOUBT she was in the minority.  Still, it was the leaders of the mages that made the agreement to join Tevinter.  Most of the mages were bemoaning the fact.  If Connor was there, he told you flat out that he was against it.  Most of the mages do.  They just wanted to be free...they DIDN'T want a war.  Alexus used time magic to manipulate events and Fiona...dear, dear sweet Fiona in all her glorious make things ten times worse magnificent self panicked and agreed to terms she didn't understand.  A deal that seemed to change faster than the one Lando took from Vader.  Plus, at the end of it, she got to possibly watch as her own SON exiled her elfy butt in a bit of karmic turnabout.  Good job Fiona, GOOD JOB...

 

Yet if you go to Therinfall, you'll see its about the same.  The top guys took the Red Lyrium, tricked their subordinates and it worked out in the Elder Ones favor.  Their stories are VERY similar.  Yet Cole tells you that a LOT of Templars are pretty far gone.  They stopped seeing their charges as human and instead as THINGS.  Dehumanizing them allows them to commit horrific acts without the feelings of guilt that SHOULD accompany them.  Some were good, but not most.  Between the various mages we've had in our groups, the few Templars that joined up, Cole, and the books, it paints a pretty clear picture that something was fundamentally wrong with the Templars.  Maybe it was the lyrium.  MAYBE it was the conditions of the Circle.  MAYBE, like with the mages...power corrupts.  And when  you have power over another human being, thats quite a bit of power.

 

Meredith was ill-suited to being a Templar based on her background.  She clearly held a grudge from her youth.  She may have hidden it, but she felt justified in what she was doing.  Like many tyrants, she cloaked herself in virtue.  She told herself and Hawke that she was doing it for the mages protection.  To a degree, MAYBE...but the fact remains that once a mage has completed their Harrowing, they AREN'T supposed to be made Tranquil.  SHE did it anyway.  She defied the Chantry, HER boss, when she could.  She may have gone off the deep end, but the seeds were already there.  

 

NOW...as how this relates to Vivienne...she seemed to think that what happened in Kirkwall was the MAGES fault.  Not the Templars.  Cullen (who was THERE) tells you that both sides had problems.  So does Varric.  THEY were there.  Vivienne creates a narrative that suits what she wants.  She blames ALL mages for what Anders did.  Remember, ANDERS blew up the Chantry.  HE decided that reconciliation was not going to be an option anymore.  He was an ex-Grey Warden apostate.  NOT a Circle mage anymore.  Meredith didn't care.  HE KNEW THAT.  He knew if he acted, she'd kill them all.  He turned Kirkwall into bloodbath.  Meredith was simply happy to go along with it...a bit TOO happy.  One has to wonder what she would have told the Divine after slaughtering everyone.  The Seekers would have had to put her down.  

 

It was ALL a mess.  Grey and Gray.  MOST mages aren't child eating crazies, and most Templars don't kick puppies for fun.  Painting them with such broad strokes doesn't help.  Vivienne is HAPPY to throw her fellow mages under the bus.  By paining HERSELF as the only true loyal mage, she cements her position and power.  Never mind all the innocents caught in the crossfire.  Templars are merely TOOLS to her.  Their lives don't matter EITHER.  She's a base breaker for those reasons.  Not everyone will agree, and everyone is right to their opinion.  Mine says she's basically a villain protagonist...but only just.  At least Loghain, Meredith and the Architect had good intentions...she's only in it for herself.

 

IMO...

[Darkstarr11]

I wanted to add this...it kinda helps sum up what I've been trying to say about the Templar/Mage situation.

 

https://en.wikipedia...iment#Criticism

 

Its not perfect, and is very flawed, but gives an idea.  

[Urzon]

I'm just really curious at what Vivienne, if she has high approval with the Inquisitor, would do in a post-Corypheus world where Leliana is elected Divine and the Free Mages reform the College of Enchanters. She believes that it's all going to cause a mess she'll have to clean up but what does that mean? She'll begrudgingly support the Inquisitor and Leliana's vision, out of respect for her friend, and try to make sure the Free Mages pull off their new system without pissing everyone off, as Iron Bull put it? Or would she try to push to reinstate the Circle system?

I don't think Vivienne would ever admit, even as a close friend, to ever supporting Leliana's (and possibly the Inquisitor's) idea of free mages, but I think it's easily safe to say she'll make the best out of the situation. It's what she has done all her life after all.

With her new found freedom, Vivienne would probably return to Orlais first and consolidate a new place for herself. All it would take is pulling a few strings with her noble friends in the court and Bastien's family to set herself up with a prominent position, and it's quite possible that she could take Morrigan's old position as Arcane Advisor to Celene if she's still alive, since there's doubts Morrigan would be returning to it after DAI.

After that, she would probably see what she can make out of the new College of Enchanters. The now free rebels might have mixed feeling for her, but she would still have the backing of the now free loyalists as a leader. With her influence with the nobles', and possibly Empress, in Orlais, she could possible maneuver her way into a leadership position in the Orlesian branch of the College. I doubt she would ever be able to push for or remake the Circle system while Leliana is still around as Divine though.

Lastly, Vivienne might try and set up some new countermeasures to magical threats, but that would possibly branch into all sorts of ideas. She would possibly help Cassandra with her new Seeker sect, gather together the remnants of the Templars to form some sort of magical police, or help the newly independent Templar Order from a Ally Templars/Divine Leliana playthrough. Who knows?