49 réponses à ce sujet

[andy6915]

Like for a last gen owner who knows the latest patch mutes all the game's audio if you enter the black emporium, and you need to completely quit the game and reload it to fix it, so you try to avoid the patch. But you want to do a new game with a custom world state, so you HAVE to patch. Or your internet is out and you want to start a new game of DAI to give you something to do? Or your origin account gets banned somehow? I know they wanted to be able to make the Keep something they can use for every future DA game, something that works cross-platform and cross-generation. But still, would an in-game version being offered as an option when starting a new game really be so bad? The PS3 version of ME2 did it easily enough with a sorta version of the Keep where you could set your ME1 choices, why was it so impossible here? They could have let you use the online version or the in-game one with basically no more than a single extra day's worth of programming. But no, they want us to have the inconvenience of forcing you to go to a website that your (well, MY) computer can barely handle and loads at a snail's pace that makes you have to go online on your game to be forced into patches you don't want.

[nightscrawl]

All of this was gone through ad nauseam when the Keep was initially announced, all though its beta testing, when it finally went live before DAI release, and again upon DAI release. The whole point of a single, non- game client website is so that it is easier to maintain, will last across several platforms and through several games, and be able to be maintained by a single team that is not related to the development of a specific game.

 

Ideally, the dedicated Keep web team will still be around, fixing bugs and updating, while the majority of the DAI development team goes onto DA4 or whatever new thing. There are import issues from DAO to DAA, and from DAA to DA2, and these will never be resolved because those teams have moved onto other games. The Keep is supposed to, if not eliminate, significantly reduce the likelihood of that happening for future titles, including DAI.

 

Note that I did not say that the Keep in its current form is perfect, because it's not, but they do have a purpose and sound reasoning for why they made this decision and it was not just to screw over people.

 

 

Also, regardless of whether you want to use the Keep or not, you still have to log into Origin (even if you then go into offline mode afterward), in order to launch the game, which requires internet connectivity. So your internet being out or your Origin account being banned has nothing at all to do with the Keep since you wouldn't be able to play the game.

[andy6915]

Also, regardless of whether you want to use the Keep or not, you still have to log into Origin (even if you then go into offline mode afterward), in order to launch the game, which requires internet connectivity. So your internet being out or your Origin account being banned has nothing at all to do with the Keep since you wouldn't be able to play the game.

 

No you don't. I play DAI 99% of the time offline. Indeed, I connect once a playthrough for importing a world state... And that's it. So you're absolutely wrong about that.

 

And I get all that reasoning. Yet, it's irrelevant. What does anything you said have to do with giving you an in-game menu when selecting new game that is just like the online version? This is like arguing that Mass Effect Genesis couldn't be offline because there was an online version (there wasn't, but this is a hypothetical). Imagine, you click new game, it asks if you want to import from the online version or set up a custom one right then and there at the new game screen, you press yes and then you're looking at an in-game version of the Keep. It's not a world state you can upload for other games, but it is something that lets you set a world state for that specific playthrough. How does an online version forbid this? It doesn't.

[AlanC9]

It probably just failed an ROI test. Maintaining an offline version is a hassle they didn't need.

[nightscrawl]

No you don't. I play DAI 99% of the time offline. Indeed, I connect once a playthrough for importing a world state... And that's it. So you're absolutely wrong about that.

 

And I get all that reasoning. Yet, it's irrelevant. What does anything you said have to do with giving you an in-game menu when selecting new game that is just like the online version? This is like arguing that Mass Effect Genesis couldn't be offline because there was an online version (there wasn't, but this is a hypothetical). Imagine, you click new game, it asks if you want to import from the online version or set up a custom one right then and there at the new game screen, you press yes and then you're looking at an in-game version of the Keep. It's not a world state you can upload for other games, but it is something that lets you set a world state for that specific playthrough. How does an online version forbid this? It doesn't.

 

You are telling me that you can LAUNCH THE GAME without connecting to Origin at all (after importing)? When I click on the DAI shortcut on the desktop it opens the Origin login and I have to log in on an internet connection before I can even select offline mode.

 

If Origin is not connected at all, the program is not running, and I click on the DAI shortcut this is what appears if I have no internet connection.

 

 

So please, do share how are are able to bypass this. And if it means that I will have been a dumb computer person and overlooked some hidden option, I will freely admit to that.

 

 

As for the other bit, there is a difference between web development and game development. Having an in-game menu would require the game developers to create an in-game version of the Keep for use, and require five different versions for each platform. It would NOT be a simple task as you seem to think it would be. It is not irrelevant to the devs and their purpose behind creating the Keep in the first place.

[AlanC9]

I find that once you're logged in to Origin once, it doesn't care if you're connected or not. I can play Origin games even if I've pulled my wireless adapter out of the USB port. It eventually askes you to login again, but that's a matter of many days, if not several weeks.

[andy6915]

It probably just failed an ROI test. Maintaining an offline version is a hassle they didn't need.

Main... Tain? What maintaining? Does the game have a hard time maintaining your race or class? Those are also things you can just dry before the game starts. What maintaining would this require? How much did Mass Effect Genesis require? None.

I don't even understand this point. It's like saying juggling geese being hard is the reason you can't flush the toilet. The sense is just... Nonexistent.

You are telling me that you can LAUNCH THE GAME without connecting to Origin at all (after importing)? When I click on the DAI shortcut on the desktop it opens the Origin login and I have to log in on an internet connection before I can even select offline mode.

If Origin is not connected at all, the program is not running, and I click on the DAI shortcut this is what appears if I have no internet connection.



So please, do share how are are able to bypass this. And if it means that I will have been a dumb computer person and overlooked some hidden option, I will freely admit to that.


As for the other bit, there is a difference between web development and game development. Having an in-game menu would require the game developers to create an in-game version of the Keep for use, and require five different versions for each platform. It would NOT be a simple task as you seem to think it would be. It is not irrelevant to the devs and their purpose behind creating the Keep in the first place.

You DO realize that I have the PS3 version, right? I DID allude to that in the first post.

[Sunnie]

 

 

So please, do share how are are able to bypass this. And if it means that I will have been a dumb computer person and overlooked some hidden option, I will freely admit to that.

He's playing on Console, not PC.

He also doesn't quite understand that adding another big system in game requires a lot of development time and $, as well as adding more code to an already enormous install. Consoles (especially previous gen) have a plethora of memory limitations all over their hardware architecture from basic ram to texture memory. Getting something that would require the processing power of a quad core processor past certification would be impossible.

 

Centralizing all the decisions made on The Keep was a brilliant move. It future proofs all the past decisions and all those that will be made in the future.

[andy6915]

He's playing on Console, not PC.
He also doesn't quite understand that adding another big system in game requires a lot of development time and $, as well as adding more code to an already enormous install. Consoles (especially previous gen) have a plethora of memory limitations all over their hardware architecture from basic ram to texture memory. Getting something that would require the processing power of a quad core processor past certification would be impossible.

Centralizing all the decisions made on The Keep was a brilliant move. It future proofs all the past decisions and all those that will be made in the future.

How big could the system be? It's a BASIC MENU, with a few pictures and text. If that's difficult, the skill tree screen must have nearly pushed the last gen consoles to their near breaking point considering that's about as detailed as the Keep is.

And I agree, the Keep is great. But also very inconvenient. And worrisome. EA might not be around forever, and the Keep servers will die with them. So the day EA goes under is the day that you will NEVER be able to use anything but the default world state again. No one ever thinks about the future when it comes to the Keep, just the present. Maybe not everyone will care, but I will since I've been known to play games I own that are 20 years old. And if I decide to play a DA years after EA is potentially gone, I'll be STUCK with a crappy world state for the rest of time. Which could be fixed with an in-game version.

Let's hope fans find a solution if and when that day comes.

[nightscrawl]

I find that once you're logged in to Origin once, it doesn't care if you're connected or not. I can play Origin games even if I've pulled my wireless adapter out of the USB port. It eventually askes you to login again, but that's a matter of many days, if not several weeks.

 
Yes, I understand that. I disconnect all the time because my modem's lights annoy me. But logging into it that first time is what I was referring to.
 
 

You DO realize that I have the PS3 version, right? I DID allude to that in the first post.

I actually didn't know that the console version worked differently from the PC version in that regard. My apologies.

 

Main... Tain? What maintaining? Does the game have a hard time maintaining your race or class? Those are also things you can just dry before the game starts. What maintaining would this require? How much did Mass Effect Genesis require? None.

I don't even understand this point. It's like saying juggling geese being hard is the reason you can't flush the toilet. The sense is just... Nonexistent.

Every time there is a new patch there is the potential to break things that are completely unrelated. The last DA2 patch broke parts of Sebastian's quest, leaving users forced to backtrack to a previous save if they experienced the bug in the specific location. Many things in the game are connected, even if it seems they might not be. Maintenance is required, yes.

I get that you don't understand it. I don't fully understand how it all works either. But just because you think it should be simple doesn't mean that it is.

[andy6915]

Yes, I understand that. I disconnect all the time because my modem's lights annoy me. But logging into it that first time is what I was referring to.



I actually didn't know that the console version worked differently from the PC version in that regard. My apologies.



Every time there is a new patch there is the potential to break things that are completely unrelated. The last DA2 patch broke parts of Sebastian's quest, leaving users forced to backtrack to a previous save if they experienced the bug in the specific location. Many things in the game are connected, even if it seems they might not be. Maintenance is required, yes.

I get that you don't understand it. I don't fully understand how it all works either. But just because you think it should be simple doesn't mean that it is.

It should be simpler than needing to use another service to make itself run right (the other archive being the online Keep).

And you may have missed my post, it appeared seconds before yours.

[AlanC9]

Main... Tain? What maintaining? Does the game have a hard time maintaining your race or class? Those are also things you can just dry before the game starts. What maintaining would this require? How much did Mass Effect Genesis require? None.
I don't even understand this point. It's like saying juggling geese being hard is the reason you can't flush the toilet. The sense is just... Nonexistent.

Maintain, sure. It isn't a static project. The intention is to use the Keep for future games in the series, and to update it to handle DLC choices, and conceivably even to add choices from the earlier games if they find that something would be relevant to a later game's plot. Didn't you know that? There's also the well-known problem of saves storing information incorrectly, as nightscrawl mentioned. This happened in both the DA and ME series.

I'm trying to have sympathy for you, since it sounds like you have a rotten PC and a worse internet connection. Try not to make it difficult.

[andy6915]

Maintain, sure. It isn't a static project. The intention is to use the Keep for future games in the series, and to update it to handle DLC choices, and conceivably even to add choices from the earlier games if they find that something would be relevant to a later game's plot. Didn't you know that? There's also the well-known problem of saves storing information incorrectly, as nightscrawl mentioned. This happened in both the DA and ME series.

I'm trying to have sympathy for you, since it sounds like you have a rotten PC and a worse internet connection. Try not to make it difficult.

 

There is no maintaining to this idea. None. Zero. It would be a static version, why wouldn't an in-game version be static. Of course it wouldn't be useful for future games, but it would be for a DAI playthrough. Honestly, you seem to be understanding far less than I am. I say stuff that makes sense, and you somehow hear something else entirely that makes no sense.

 

Rotten PC, yes. Bad internet, not at all. I actually have a very very fast internet. I don't connect to the internet on my PS3 by choice, not necessity. Using the internet on my PS3 is as simple as clicking the "disabled" option to "enabled" in the connection settings, and I'm instantly connected without issue. Seriously, it's that simple. I guess my PS3 is technically CONNECTED all the time, but it's rare that I actually allow it to use the connection.

[Sunnie]

It's obvious you also have little or no real understanding of what it takes to code any systems in a large game like this. What you think is trivial actually takes dozens of man hours to code, dozens more to test and report, then iterate that over again. That all cost a ton of money. It also cost a ton to get this crap through certification for both Sony and Microsoft. Its a whole lot cheaper and more efficient to do that through a web app.

Just because YOU think it's inconvenient is really irrelevant since it is not going to change because you don't like it. Furthermore, I fail to understand just why this is such a die-on-this-hill issue, you are choosing to not connect to the internet when all you could do is turn it on and leave it on and never worry about it again. Seems like you are just looking for something to be upset about? I really don't know, but I'm scratching my head and not figuring it out.

[andy6915]

It's obvious you also have little or no real understanding of what it takes to code any systems in a large game like this. What you think is trivial actually takes dozens of man hours to code, dozens more to test and report, then iterate that over again. That all cost a ton of money. It also cost a ton to get this crap through certification for both Sony and Microsoft. Its a whole lot cheaper and more efficient to do that through a web app.

Just because YOU think it's inconvenient is really irrelevant since it is not going to change because you don't like it. Furthermore, I fail to understand just why this is such a die-on-this-hill issue, you are choosing to not connect to the internet when all you could do is turn it on and leave it on and never worry about it again. Seems like you are just looking for something to be upset about? I really don't know, but I'm scratching my head and not figuring it out.

 

How much extra code does it take to simply tell the system "do exactly what you do with the online version, except take the Keep decisions from the user's selection made at the start of a new game"? Exact same method, exact same everything, only difference being where it looks for the Keep choices. You're the one lacking understanding if you see that as particularly more complicated than what it already does with the Keep. Hell, if Frostbite was easier to work with I could promise you that modders themselves could make an in-game version... Real complicated...

 

It is inconvenient for all console users. Period. And again, there is the part about the future if EA goes under. A part you conveniently don't argue, likely because you know I'm completely right about that and you have no counter.

[Sunnie]

EA has been around for 33 years (over 3 decades), they own a very large/substantial part of the video game industry, and they have assets in the billions of dollars. I don't believe they are going to be in such a financial dire straits that would cause a publicly traded company to just close it's doors, any time soon.

 

Really, its no more inconvenient for console users as for PC users, the system works exactly the same, you start a new game, it asks if you want to download a world state, you say yes and verify the save date. Done. There's nothing inconvenient about that, 30 seconds of downloading and tell it OK.

 

It seems to me that you are making a mountain out of an ant hill. You have made it obvious that you have zero understanding of programming, and seems like you don't want to understand, since you are stuck on a perceived inconvenience and keep insisting that it's a trivial thing to do. I've been in this business since about the same time EA was founded, I know what I am talking about, and I can guarantee theres nothing trivial about what you want here.

[andy6915]

EA has been around for 33 years (over 3 decades), they own a very large/substantial part of the video game industry, and they have assets in the billions of dollars. I don't believe they are going to be in such a financial dire straits that would cause a publicly traded company to just close it's doors, any time soon.

 

Really, its no more inconvenient for console users as for PC users, the system works exactly the same, you start a new game, it asks if you want to download a world state, you say yes and verify the save date. Done. There's nothing inconvenient about that, 30 seconds of downloading and tell it OK.

 

Yet we have massive companies that have been around for decades either dying completely or becoming a hallow shell of their former selves, Capcom being a good example. In this industry, a single financial failure can put even a massive company into a hole they can't climb out of. You don't seem to realize the financial costs of making a game these days, one screw up and you're pretty much done. No one is invincible in this industry.

 

It is, actually. You guys apparently need to be connected because of DRM, we don't. And you missed the point that the damn Keep is the reason I had to install the latest patch that utterly destroys your sound if you have the last gen version, a patch I wanted to avoid but couldn't because I needed to make a custom world state. That's not an insignificant issue.

[FieryDove]

Well I can understand the complaint.

 

I would rather it worked like they said it would early in development. Log in load world state not have to log in again. It is past annoying to start a new game only to be told you have update your game. I would rather just log in to the keep but that's never going to happen. ah well

[Sunnie]

 

It is, actually. You guys apparently need to be connected because of DRM, we don't. And you missed the point that the damn Keep is the reason I had to install the latest patch that utterly destroys your sound if you have the last gen version, a patch I wanted to avoid but couldn't because I needed to make a custom world state. That's not an insignificant issue.

Which sounds completely like an issue with the platform you choose to play on. I can and have imported world states while on patches as far as 4 back from current. if you are being forced to update just to download a world state from The Keep, it's likely due to Sony requiring it more than a compatibility issue. Yet another reason I refuse to play these games on any console.

I have a PS3 also, and I hate that I have to keep current on the system patches every time I want to watch Netflix, but it isn't Netflix that requires the update before connecting, it's Sony.

[AlanC9]

How much extra code does it take to simply tell the system "do exactly what you do with the online version, except take the Keep decisions from the user's selection made at the start of a new game"? Exact same method, exact same everything, only difference being where it looks for the Keep choices.

Because then the interface and code for making those choices would also have to be local, wouldn't they? Now you've got six different programs instead of just the one.Though two of those are going away.

[andy6915]

Because then the interface and code for making those choices would also have to be local, wouldn't they? Now you've got six different programs instead of just the one.

 

Local... What? You don't seem to realize that I'm basically arguing for a DA version of ME:G, which doesn't require much coding whatsoever. In fact, what I want is even simpler than ME:G.

[AlanC9]

Local... What? You don't seem to realize that I'm basically arguing for a DA version of ME:G, which doesn't require much coding whatsoever. In fact, what I want is even simpler than ME:G.

So you want the local version to be kinda lame? Limited and potentially buggy - actually, certainly buggy, since Bio fixed a couple of things in the Keep after DAI shipped. (Well, I suppose bugs could be patched, but you said you didn't want maintenance.)

OK, that's a bit better. I didn't realize you were asking for less functionality. Still, programming a new comic book, or whatever, for the five platforms wouldn't be free. Though I suppose they could charge for it the way they did with ME.

Why would this be worth doing? What problem is it that you're trying to solve?

[andy6915]

So you want the local version to be kinda lame? Limited and potentially buggy - actually, certainly buggy, since Bio fixed a couple of things in the Keep after DAI shipped. (Well, I suppose bugs could be patched, but you said you didn't want maintenance.)

OK, that's a bit better. I didn't realize you were asking for less functionality. Still, programming a new comic book, or whatever, for the five platforms wouldn't be free. Though I suppose they could charge for it the way they did with ME.

Why would this be worth doing? What problem is it that you're trying to solve?

 

I wanted a version completely disconnected from online, completely useless for future games, completely cut off from your Origin account... Just a quick little menu where you set how you want the world to be for that playthrough of DAI. Get it now? This is what I've been arguing for from the start, and why your responses have been making next to no sense to me. You thought I meant some kind of in-game online Keep that is also connected to the website version? Oh god no, that would be ludicrously difficult to do.

[andy6915]

Why would this be worth doing? What problem is it that you're trying to solve?

 

...And new post, since I somehow missed this actual question. It would solve the problems of needing to deal with going to a crappy website just so I can set my world state so I can do things like meet Connor and meet a romanced Morrigan who's child is taken care of by both parents, make Hawke's personality what I want it to be. So I won't have to patch. So I won't have to count on Bioware and EA never ever ever dying if I want to play DAI again in 10 years, because I won't have to worry about their servers being dead because I can still use an the in-game version to at least make the world for DAI the way I want it to be. That's 3 good reasons.

[cdizzle2k3]

Local... What? You don't seem to realize that I'm basically arguing for a DA version of ME:G, which doesn't require much coding whatsoever. In fact, what I want is even simpler than ME:G.

Local meaning that it's on your personal machine, separate from systems accessed by connecting to a separate network like the internet.

 

I'm a programmer for a living and I'll tell you that the approach they took was the best one to accommodate all platforms. They didn't want to isolate people who might be picking up the game for the Xbone or PS4.

 

If I remember correctly, all ME:G did was create an artificial save file, which ME2 was already programmed to look. That save file only needed to be generated for PS3 players. Months later released that program to accommodate 360 and PC players

 

With DA:I and the Keep, they made it with all platforms in mind from the beginning. DA: I wasn't programmed with an "import local save file" function since 2 new consoles were released and those local saves would have no means to exist. Of course it's dangerous to assume that everyone has a means to connect to the internet, but logistically speaking, it's easier to program one function that uploads data from a single uniform source(Keep), than to program a multiple versions of a similar function for each individual platform the game is released on.. Doing it this way is also better for people who may jump between systems, so a single webservice can hold their data and keep it synchronized between platforms without having to manage them on each individual platform. It's very feasible to do it the way you're suggesting, but it's just inefficient.