56 réponses à ce sujet

[Heimdall]

Wrong. She uses the shards in hers, but she still makes the whole thing herself. She basically took the shards, made a functioning one using them, and unknowingly locked herself out of her own mirror.

Um, no, its the same Eluvian

[Gervaise]

Merril's mirror never made much sense to me.   I saw Duncan smash it in DAO, so all she has was a small shard that was corrupted.   Then she sets it up as though it is the original mirror and complains when it doesn't work.    She never got it to work when I played in DA2, either smashing it again in frustration or just leaving it until she can find a way to make it work.    The stupid thing is that Morrigan stole a book from the Dalish in order to find out about eluvians, so Merril ought to have been able to find out about it from that clan.  Also Morrigan's apparently functioned without the key, since she was using it way before Briala met Imshael.    And Duncan said the mirror we found in DAO had connections with Tevinter.  

 

I think the writers basically ignored what was said in Origins personally.   If you read all the references to eluvians in game and in Masked Empire, they aren't consistent.     In WoT2 the history of Mahariel's clan has been altered, so Marethari became Keeper back in 8:82/8:83 at the death of the old Keeper at the hands of Avaar, when in Origins Mahariel's father was meant to have been Keeper before her, which would have made Mahariel at least 47 years of age at the beginning of Origins, way older than I imagine them to be.     If they can change the history of the clan when it relates to the Dalish Warden, I doubt they would be bothered about what was said concerning the eluvian that was found by Mahariel.

 

Mind you I would be interested in discovering who shut them down and ensured that the later elves couldn't use them.    Unless it was a writing error, Imshael says in Masked Empire that the last time they were used was at the fall of the Dales.     So if someone was continually firing them up and them closing them down again to suit themselves, they would be best candidate for the strange figure that Tamlen saw.

[Heimdall]

Merril's mirror never made much sense to me. I saw Duncan smash it in DAO, so all she has was a small shard that was corrupted. Then she sets it up as though it is the original mirror and complains when it doesn't work. She never got it to work when I played in DA2, either smashing it again in frustration or just leaving it until she can find a way to make it work. The stupid thing is that Morrigan stole a book from the Dalish in order to find out about eluvians, so Merril ought to have been able to find out about it from that clan. Also Morrigan's apparently functioned without the key, since she was using it way before Briala met Imshael. And Duncan said the mirror we found in DAO had connections with Tevinter.

She had enough pieces to reassemble most of the mirror, not just a single shard. That clan didn't know enough elvish to read the book, as Ariane says. They didn't even know what eluvian meant. And besides which, how would Merrill even get in contact with this clan?

The Tevinters used the eluvians themselves for communication, though they never figured out how to travel through them. Duncan was misinformed as to its origins.

There are a great many inconsistencies regarding things said in the Dalish Origin, especially regarding ages, they don't appear to have had their timeline down at the time.

[andy6915]

Um, no, its the same Eluvian

 
Different design, different shape, different everything. And that particular Eluvian is still in the ruin in Witch hunt, so how did she bring it if it's still there? Oh, and...
 
http://forum.bioware...n/#entry5330609
 
It's archived, so forgive the lack of proper quoting.
 

Naitaka wrote...
What? Merrill's Eluvian was the one found in the Bercillian Forest during the Dalish Elf Origin. It's been corrupted by the Darkspawn taint and was smashed into little pieces by Duncan. The one Morrigan used was a working Eluvian under the Dragonbone Waste.

David Gaider wrote...
This is correct. Does Merrill not explain that she's painstakingly reconstructed the mirror using the shard?

So... Uh... Yeah?


edit:

Even more clear that she made her own, not repaired another one-

http://forum.bioware...-2#entry5331097
 

David Gaider wrote...
She just has the one shard. She incorporates it into the mirror she builds, extrapolating its construction both from the shard itself and what lore she's been able to collect. Probably why she wasn't able to get it to work.

[andy6915]

Reading that, even I was slightly wrong. I said "shards" (as in plural), but it turns out she built the entire freaking thing with a single shard. As in one, as in singular. That's even more impressive than I remembered.

[Heimdall]

Different design, different shape, different everything. And that particular Eluvian is still in the ruin in Witch hunt, so how did she bring it if it's still there? Oh, and...

http://forum.bioware...n/#entry5330609

It's archived, so forgive the lack of proper quoting.




So... Uh... Yeah?


edit:

Even more clear that she made her own, not repaired another one-

http://forum.bioware...-2#entry5331097

The Inquisition eluvians are also a different shape and design from the DAO ones. That's called a shift in art design, it doesn't mean anything by itself.

You made your point with the Gaider quotes though.

[andy6915]

The Inquisition eluvians are also a different shape and design from the DAO ones. That's called a shift in art design, it doesn't mean anything by itself.

You made your point with the Gaider quotes though.

 

Which, to get back the point, means that she was in no danger of encountering the person or creature that Tamlen was seen by.

 

And yes, art shift, but again... That particular Eluvian is still in the ruins from the Dalish origin, found once again in Witch Hunt. Art shift or not, you can't take an object and somehow have the object still be back where you found it.

[Heimdall]

Which, to get back the point, means that she was in no danger of encountering the person or creature that Tamlen was seen by.

And yes, art shift, but again... That particular Eluvian is still in the ruins from the Dalish origin, found once again in Witch Hunt. Art shift or not, you can't take an object and somehow have the object still be back where you found it.

I always figured Duncan was right about the mirror being broken and corrupted. Whatever Tamlen saw, I believe that eluvian was no longer connecting to the crossroads. That the original mirror was already broken BEFORE Duncan smashed it makes her feat all the more impressive really, seeing how close she apparently came to getting it working.

DA2 has some very wonky timeline issues already, I always assumed that was one of them. This makes more sense.

[andy6915]

I always figured Duncan was right about the mirror being broken and corrupted. Whatever Tamlen saw, I believe that eluvian was no longer connecting to the crossroads. That the original mirror was already broken BEFORE Duncan smashed it makes her feat all the more impressive really, seeing how close she apparently came to getting it working.

DA2 has some very wonky timeline issues already, I always assumed that was one of them. This makes more sense.

 

Yep, Merrill was quite impressive. Like I said, her ONLY flaw was that she didn't know they need a specific key to work, so of course she never built the key. So her self-made Eluvian was fully functional, but she missed the part about how to turn the damn thing on. Like building a computer but somehow not knowing about installing the power button. Makes the rivalry scene with it rather depressing to me, she shatters a working and functional Eluvian because she still thinks she didn't get anywhere and that it ruined her life. If she had only made a key too, she would have been exploring the Crossroads before act 3.

 

I'd like to pretend that I just knew all this, but I was actually rather ignorant some time back. So I made a thread. And that thread is what taught me all this.

 

http://forum.bioware...t-than-merrill/

[CDR Aedan Cousland]

Haven't read the rest of the thread yet, but I remember Avernus stating in his studies that the Blight/taint is foreign to demons and spirits, so I'd guess that whatever Tamlen saw was neither a spirit nor a demon. Probably.

 

Unless they retcon that. Or, they could even retcon what Tamlen saw. Or both!

[zambingo]

Regarding Mahariel's age, I don't recall how elves age in DA but is it possible they'd still be a youth at say 40? eg. a Vulcan in Star Trek would still be considered a youth at that age since they live past 200 years. If this is possible then the WoT2 info about the clan's keeper succession isn't really inconsistent with DAO. It just means we preceived Mahariel must be [insert age] because of their youth status and what that means in our reality.

[andy6915]

Regarding Mahariel's age, I don't recall how elves age in DA but is it possible they'd still be a youth at say 40? eg. a Vulcan in Star Trek would still be considered a youth at that age since they live past 200 years. If this is possible then the WoT2 info about the clan's keeper succession isn't really inconsistent with DAO. It just means we preceived Mahariel must be [insert age] because of their youth status and what that means in our reality.

 

It goes against all lore, elves live only about as long as humans. 40 for an elf means the same thing as 40 for a human. They were immortal and long lived once, but not anymore.

[Velanna Frost]

It goes against all lore, elves live only about as long as humans. 40 for an elf means the same thing as 40 for a human. They were immortal and long lived once, but not anymore.

 

I'm pretty sure dalish elves do live longer than humans and city elves. I can't remember exactly what was said, but in Origins Lanaya definitely mentions that they have lengthy lifespans in comparison to humans. Although of course no specifics are given so it's unknown just how much longer they live.

 

That being said I do highly doubt their lifespans have increased to the extent that Mahariel could be 47+ years old and still be considered young.

[andy6915]

I'm pretty sure dalish elves do live longer than humans and city elves. I can't remember exactly what was said, but in Origins Lanaya definitely mentions that they have lengthy lifespans in comparison to humans. Although of course no specifics are given so it's unknown just how much longer they live.

 

That being said I do highly doubt their lifespans have increased to the extent that Mahariel could be 47+ years old and still be considered young.

 

Dalish live longer than city elves because Dalish are almost universally fit and well fed with excellent and natural diets in good living conditions. City elves mostly live in squalor, have awful diets with cheap and terrible food, water that is usually dirty and polluted, disease often runs rampant in alienages... There's a heck of a lot of reasons that nomadic hunters would live longer than people in walled off ghettos who have some of the poorest living conditions a sapient being can have.

 

And Dalish don't live much longer than humans. All the races generally have the same lifespans, a human noble probably lives as long as a Dalish.

[andy6915]

Dalish live longer than city elves because Dalish are almost universally fit and well fed with excellent and natural diets in good living conditions. City elves mostly live in squalor, have awful diets with cheap and terrible food, water that is usually dirty and polluted, disease often runs rampant in alienages... There's a heck of a lot of reasons that nomadic hunters would live longer than people in walled off ghettos who have some of the poorest living conditions a sapient being can have.

 

And Dalish don't live much longer than humans. All the races generally have the same lifespans, a human noble probably lives as long as a Dalish.

 

To quote and respond to myself, of all things, I found evidence. But... It's conflicting!

 

Mary Kirby:
"All the races have approximately the same life-span. But Qunari have sanitation and medicine, and so on average tend to live the longest. Dalish do not live any longer than city elves. The only Dalish to "reclaim" any immortality was Zathrian, and he was using a blood magic curse."
 

David Gaider:

"City elves have the same lifespans as humans. They call them shemlen because it's an ancient word...occasionally city elves will use some words that are elven without really understanding where they really come from. So it's a derogatory term, and that's all it is to them when they say shem, the short version, they call humans that even though the reasons for that word no longer exist. Dalish tend to live longer. We're not talking into Tolkienesque numbers of years here. The longer they've stayed away and their parents have stayed away from humanity, the longer they seem to live. There are exceptional individuals among them as well, Zathrian had lived for almost three hundred years. It's going to vary but for the city elves, the elves that live inside human cities, they don't have exceptional lifespans at all."

 

sources:

http://forum.bioware.../#entry14787884

 

http://swooping-is-b...233.html?nojs=1

 

 

So... Yeah. One is saying it's as I said and that Dalish are just healthier, and the other is saying that Dalish indeed are a little longer lived than a typical human or city elf. Which to believe? I have no idea.

[Aren]

The Blight is a magical disease, not a supernatural "turn-you-evil" device.

Well so far the taint (without GW resistance) was always depicted like a turn you evil button in this franchise.

[Dai Grepher]

Which, to get back the point, means that she was in no danger of encountering the person or creature that Tamlen was seen by.

 

Minor issue, but is that because she couldn't get it to work, or is it because the mirror was no longer linked to the one in the underground city that Tamlen saw? Ignore this if you want. It isn't all that important.

[andy6915]

Minor issue, but is that because she couldn't get it to work, or is it because the mirror was no longer linked to the one in the underground city that Tamlen saw? Ignore this if you want. It isn't all that important.

 

It was because the weird thing Tamlen saw was behind an entirely different Eluvian, one that (likely) didn't lead to where Merrill's did. Whatever that thing was, it was in the Eluvian that was shattered. The one Merrill built from scratch won't have the freaky thing in it.

[Dai Grepher]

Was the dark figure inside of that eluvian, or was it on the other side of the underground city's eluvian?

 

Also, I'm understanding this as... even though Merrill used a shard of the ruins eluvian to construct a new one, that new one won't lead to the same place as the shard because shattering that eluvian disconnected that mirror from the other one.

 

What I am unsure of is this. Did Merrill form new eluvian material around that shard (which acted as a basis) to create her eluvian, or did she create a brand new eluvian and just use the shard as like a blueprint or example to learn from? Either way works story-wise, so again, minor issue.

[zambingo]

So... Yeah. One is saying it's as I said and that Dalish are just healthier, and the other is saying that Dalish indeed are a little longer lived than a typical human or city elf. Which to believe? I have no idea.

Neither statement necessarily makes the other false.

[Beomer]

Yep, Merrill was quite impressive. Like I said, her ONLY flaw was that she didn't know they need a specific key to work, so of course she never built the key. So her self-made Eluvian was fully functional, but she missed the part about how to turn the damn thing on. Like building a computer but somehow not knowing about installing the power button. Makes the rivalry scene with it rather depressing to me, she shatters a working and functional Eluvian because she still thinks she didn't get anywhere and that it ruined her life. If she had only made a key too, she would have been exploring the Crossroads before act 3.

 

I'd like to pretend that I just knew all this, but I was actually rather ignorant some time back. So I made a thread. And that thread is what taught me all this.

 

http://forum.bioware...t-than-merrill/

 

Her mirror was never fully functional. By your own quote from DG, he states that maybe the reason she never got it to work was because she made the whole thing herself from a shard. That clearly indicates she could've missed some fundamental thing in making the mirror, more than just creating the key or whatever.

And BTW we don't even know what the 'key' for different Eluvians is supposed to be. The way I've understood it, the key isn't always a tangible object. For instance Morrigan always talks about a price that she had to pay to use her Eluvian, making it sound that they 'key' can also be some sort of sacrifice.

[Typhrus]

An Eluvian as of DAI (and The Masked Empire) will not work unless they have a key, making it a fundamental thing for the Eluvians to work. So by all accounts that would properly be 'not fully functioning'. While DG's comments are still interesting, I'm not entirely sure they're relevant to the discussion about working/not-working Eluvians as DAI and The Masked Empire may have replaced his statements in the lore.

 

Regarding Morrigan's Eluvian. While we don't (yet) know the specifics of how these Keys work, it entirely possible that they're a once only activation. Of course, how one finds the off switch might be an entirely different matter if that is correct.

 

The last paragraph is supposition on my part and I don't really have anything to back it up. Still, this has been an interesting discussion.

[Dai Grepher]

A key could be an object or phrase, or maybe even a gesture.

 

The great price Morrigan paid to create her eluvian is shown in Last Court. It took her days of painstaking work in the glassworks to get it just right. It was probably an arduous endeavor to go to Serault, convince the Marquis to let her use the glassworks (which can be allowed or prevented), then she had to make the glass, cast the proper magic spells over it, spend days on end doing all this, and then at the end of it all she still had to transport it to a safe place without it being broken or stolen. Also, the only way she could even make it to that point was to insert herself into the Orlesian court, which meant cozying up to Celene and enduring her pomp and prattle. She probably also had to shove Vivienne over on the perch, which Vivienne would not have tolerated.

 

So her price of creating the eluvian was 10 years of her life, basically. And I think the first two involved actually researching the eluvians, as we observed in Witch Hunt.

[Beomer]

The last paragraph is supposition on my part and I don't really have anything to back it up. Still, this has been an interesting discussion.

 

Heh. Most of the stuff here is supposition. DG's statement that Merill's mirror 'probably' didn't work because she made it herself from the shard, is proof enough that even the writers don't have all the details worked out 100% of the time. They make stuff up as they go along trying their best (I hope) to ensure they don't conflict with their own lore.

I'm sure when they expand the story further and the whole mystery about Arlathan, the Black City and the Ancient Elves will be developed and cleared up more, we'll see more than a few conflicting facts. Most of time in such cases it is pointless trying to cover everything with one theory like actual science and just accept that some occurrences were anomalies because the writers didn't think it through before putting out the material.

[Beomer]

A key could be an object or phrase, or maybe even a gesture.

 

The great price Morrigan paid to create her eluvian is shown in Last Court. It took her days of painstaking work in the glassworks to get it just right. It was probably an arduous endeavor to go to Serault, convince the Marquis to let her use the glassworks (which can be allowed or prevented), then she had to make the glass, cast the proper magic spells over it, spend days on end doing all this, and then at the end of it all she still had to transport it to a safe place without it being broken or stolen. Also, the only way she could even make it to that point was to insert herself into the Orlesian court, which meant cozying up to Celene and enduring her pomp and prattle. She probably also had to shove Vivienne over on the perch, which Vivienne would not have tolerated.

 

So her price of creating the eluvian was 10 years of her life, basically. And I think the first two involved actually researching the eluvians, as we observed in Witch Hunt.

 

The Last Court is that browser game right? I haven't played it but if you could narrate the story in short I'll be grateful.

Does that game imply that Morrigan made her Eluvian from scratch? Because there's a lot in her story post Witch Hunt that's left for assumption.