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Avoid making a single character overly important


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#51
Drone223

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I've said before, far as I'm aware, there are no colleges for information brokering. So it's pretty much a self thought discipline. Some people may be naturally talented at it. I'm willing to accept Liara's one of them. You and Mikey boy and many other haters are not. And I'm a-ok with that. But the fact that Liara is a successful information broker lends credence to her, not you.

Being an information broker is most likely something that people can't just simply pick up, its going to require many years of preparation and training and Liara has none of that.


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#52
dgcatanisiri

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Liara's characterization ultimately was a bit of a crutch for the writers in the trilogy. She was a constant - you couldn't unlock Ilos without her while Wrex, Ashley, and Kaidan all could die and Garrus could go unrequried in ME1, and in ME2, every companion was a potential casualty of the suicide mission. Because of that, they pushed her relationship with Shepard to the forefront, so that she could effectively 'stand in' for characters who might be dead. The problem was that the minute someone played a game where those characters were still alive, still capable of standing for themselves, her prominence becomes unearned, because she's always there when a character who the player is better connected to could have been instead.

 

I mean one of the stand out examples of this for me is the second dream - there's no reason that should have been a conversation had with Liara, since Shepard will discuss the person left on Virmire if they didn't have a romance die on the Suicide Mission. That should have been a conversation had with the Virmire Survivor when they rejoin the crew, after they hold a gun on the survivor, only had with Liara if the VS doesn't survive or rejoin the crew. But no, it's have this conversation with Liara only or not.

 

Because Liara was the character that the writers could go to, because she never has a point where she is able to be killed, they relied on that, gave her these emotionally intimate beats with Shepard. But the minute you have a player who isn't invested in her, who doesn't feel the way that the writers intend them to towards her, she's acting an intruder, overstepping her bounds because the things she's saying and doing are not justified for that player. Her overall presence in ME3 is basically holding the spotlight, so that other characters, characters who might not be there in every game, don't get as much of a chance to spend time in it. And while she's not the only offender of this, she is the worst offender of it, because she gets the most prominence out of it.

 

So yeah, they need to be aware of this fact when it comes to Andromeda and any successive games. If Andromeda is the first part in an ongoing story of a single protagonist, they absolutely can't have a case like in the Shepard trilogy where multiple major characters, ESPECIALLY romances, are potentially killed off in the first or second games of the trilogy. Otherwise, we end up with this all over again. Sure, I don't expect them to have someone in a corner, watching a stopwatch and clocking the time a given character has in the spotlight, but they do need to divide content up fairly equally in terms of the time the character is given the spotlight - how often is this character required to go on missions, how many conversations are they being required to have with the PC, are any of their conversations optional, how often are they in opposition to the PC, how plot intensive is their involvement, and are these all about equal amongst one another. Liara's content is not equal amongst the other characters by the time we get to ME3 (Three missions she's required on, four if you include From Ashes, and on that on and Mars, she could just as easily serve as a voice on the comm or a non-squadmate like the barrier tech on the Suicide Mission, she has multiple emotionally intimate beats with Shepard in the post-dream conversations, she gets a nude romance scene while all others go no further than their underwear and not even that for Garrus and Tali...), and we can see this as early as ME2 (her being involved in recovering Shepard's body and being loyal still to Shepard, in opposition to Ashley/Kaidan's entirely justified distrust that's plainly framed as somehow being them being unreasonable on Horizon, and her getting a spotlight DLC).

 

Liara's a crutch for the writers, and it makes it hard for the other characters to have a proper opportunity to stand out because she gets this focus. This is an area that the next games need to be aware of and do what they can to avoid.


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#53
DuskWanderer

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You haven't tried, have you? :P

 

I've said before, far as I'm aware, there are no colleges for information brokering. So it's pretty much a self thought discipline. Some people may be naturally talented at it. I'm willing to accept Liara's one of them. You and Mikey boy and many other haters are not. And I'm a-ok with that. But the fact that Liara is a successful information broker lends credence to her, not you.

 

Except nothing about her "skills" translates over into information brokering. That requires networks of spies and informants, knowing which people to lean on, and having access to powerful people. Nothing Liara did ever translates to that. 


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#54
Sanunes

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Spoiler

 

I do agree that they don't have to measure out the screen time of characters, but if they are going to have a character with the chance of death happen they can't bring them back for that is what bothered me the most throughout Mass Effect 3. For this diluted all the returning characters were because they had to write two characters to fill all those roles.  None of the returning characters I enjoyed felt like their part of the story was written for them because they wound up having two different people fill those roles one if the character survived and one if they didn't.

 

Right now my hope is that BioWare learned from that mistake and won't repeat it by having a character have the possibility of dying and then bringing them back for it just creates a lot of unnecessary work and that time could be used elsewhere and better.  I am more for having content completely locked out over having multiple routes though the exact content, such as any mission that involved a character that might have died been completely locked out if they did die in the game and the major plot missions didn't involve any past character at all.



#55
Nethershadow

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Popular characters I thought were the ones to get more time and emphasis, hence why Jacob didn't get a lot because BW said he was at the bottom of the list for popularity. I didn't mind him at all, but compared to many other characters he was just out shone.

 

I would much rather have popular / favorite characters get more time then the not so popular ones.



#56
Livi14

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I disagree. For me, the Bastila romance in KotoR was the best I've ever dealt with in any Bioware game I've played. It was well written, but even more importantly, since Bioware knew who the romance option was going to be, the romance got written into the main plot of the game. It was developed very slowly and gradually, and it was finely interwoven with other plot elements. In the end, the romance with Bastila is intimately tied up with the ultimate denouement of the game, and yes, you had important choices about how to handle it.

As for Liara, she is my second favorite BW character and her character arc was great, especially because of LotSB. I'm fine with the leap from 'ME1 Liara' to 'ME2 information broker Liara' too. I believe, given her scientist background, she would exel at info brokering. It's all very similar, she tracks down vague clues, and pieces them together to create an overarching theory to explain it all. However, the Redemption change is crap, but I attribute that to the medium and having a clueless writer. I try to forget 'Redemption' Liara, honestly. There are scant few parts of 'Redemption' that fit with Liara, but most of it is completely off base.

But if you compare any romance in any Bioware game from Jade Empire on to the romance in KOTOR, I'm sorry but there's just no comparison - and I'd like to see them to go back to that model now and then.

#57
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I cerainlty hope BioWare does not go the route of only making the fan favourites, or those with the loudest fanbases, more relevant to the story. Those of us fans who are a minority will be s.o.l. The characters given story importance over other characters should be given this not because of fan nepotism, but because the writers have a particular reason relevant to the story to do so. Not because of the irresistible "azure" or "hips" or my "best buddy/wingman"...why was Garrus plot important again???

 

Additionally:

 

I think Liara was given importance by the writers not because of fan favouritism but because they always intended for her to be plot important, yes or no?

 

Tali and Garrus were given importance due to fan favouritism, yes or no?

 

Well, I never recruited Garrus in ME1 or Tali in ME2 (got her p.o.v in ME1 and Legion's in ME2), and since the geth get wiped out in destroy anyways, I was good with Raan for Rannoch and sided with her people.

 

As to Liara's capability as the shadow broker; she is supposedly a stalker, so that has to count for something.



#58
Mordokai

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when its handwaved away with half assed explanations that make no sense it lends her no credence, it makes her a writer's pet

 

I could come up with reasons why I disagree with you, but I've seen enough to know nothing I ever say will convince you otherwise, so I won't even try. In the end, it all comes down to polarly opposite views.

 

Addendum: even with her being a writers pet, that doesn't invalidate anything I said.

 

Being an information broker is most likely something that people can't just simply pick up, its going to require many years of preparation and training and Liara has none of that.

 

I would argue Mass Effect is a story that centers on extraordinary individuals. Each of Shepard's crew is something special, one way or another. In this way, Liara is no different than many others. So yeah, I disagree with you but once again don't expect we'll ever see eye to eye on this subject.


Modifié par Mordokai, 27 juillet 2015 - 06:08 .

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#59
AlexiaRevan

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peoples will obsess no matter what . Just look at the Warden.......


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#60
Sylvius the Mad

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I'm giving you the chance to stop being wrong.

This.

I thank people when they point out that I'm wrong, because I want very much not to be wrong. So if I am, I want to know. That's the only way I'll stop being wrong.

Pointing out errors and offering corrections is helping.
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#61
Drone223

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As for Liara, she is my second favorite BW character and her character arc was great, especially because of LotSB. I'm fine with the leap from 'ME1 Liara' to 'ME2 information broker Liara' too. I believe, given her scientist background, she would exel at info brokering. It's all very similar, she tracks down vague clues, and pieces them together to create an overarching theory to explain it all. However, the Redemption change is crap, but I attribute that to the medium and having a clueless writer. I try to forget 'Redemption' Liara, honestly. There are scant few parts of 'Redemption' that fit with Liara, but most of it is completely off base.

Information brokering and archeology have absoluty nothing in common and being an information broker isn't a job that can simply be picked up.

I could come up with reasons why I disagree with you, but I've seen enough to know nothing I ever say will convince you otherwise, so I won't even try. In the end, it all comes down to polarly opposite views.

I would argue Mass Effect is a story that centers on extraordinary individuals. Each of Shepard's crew is something special, one way or another. In this way, Liara is no different than many others. So yeah, I disagree with you but once again don't expect we'll ever see eye to eye on this subject.

Except Liara suddenly becoming an information broker isn't extraordinary it's contrived simple as that.

#62
Mordokai

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Except Liara suddenly becoming an information broker isn't extraordinary it's contrived simple as that.

 

Frankly, I'm surprised the dreaded Mary Sue hasn't been invoked yet.

 

Too often, at least...



#63
Han Shot First

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I liked Liara's shift to information broker, but I do wish that shift had been fleshed out better. Of course thats all but impossible to do in a five minute cameo. The how and why she went about putting together the nuts and bolts of a private intelligence organization would probably have been a better subject for one of those comics or the tie-in novels.

 

There were a couple of both (comics & novels) that really added nothing to flesh out the game world or character backstories.



#64
Linkenski

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A character's importance versus screen time should be properly alligned, is all. We didn't have a good reason to see so much Liara in our non Liara LI playthrough a except that the writers loved her to death, and it felt like awkward fanfiction at times.
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#65
Drone223

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I liked Liara's shift to information broker, but I do wish that shift had been fleshed out better. Of course thats all but impossible to do in a five minute cameo. The how and why she went about putting together the nuts and bolts of a private intelligence organization would probably have been a better subject for one of those comics or the tie-in novels.

 

There were a couple of both (comics & novels) that really added nothing to flesh out the game world or character backstories.

She manage to become one the best information brokers in the span of 2-3 with no prior training/experience the whole thing is contrived and very far fetched. Bioware would have been much better off introducing a new character who is an experienced information broker instead of forcing Liara to become one in order for her to be relevant to the story.



#66
Han Shot First

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She manage to become one the best information brokers in the span of 2-3 with no prior training/experience the whole thing is contrived and very far fetched. Bioware would have been much better off introducing a new character who is an experienced information broker instead of forcing Liara to become one in order for her to be relevant to the story.

 

It is contrived only because it wasn't properly developed. 

 

You can have characters go through dramatic shifts in their story arc so long as it is properly developed. One of the best examples of this is Breaking Bad, which takes a mild-mannered High School Chemistry teacher and turns him into a ruthless criminal mastermind by series end. It works with Breaking Bad because it is slowly developed over the course of the series.

 

In order to properly develop Liara's shift she would have either needed more than just 5 minute cameo in ME2, or for it to be explored in one of the tie-in comics or books. 


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#67
Drone223

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It is contrived only because it wasn't properly developed. 

 

You can have characters go through dramatic shifts in their story arc so long as it is properly developed. One of the best examples of this is Breaking Bad, which takes a mild-mannered High School Chemistry teacher and turns him into a ruthless criminal mastermind by series end. It works with Breaking Bad because it is slowly developed over the course of the series.

 

In order to properly develop Liara's shift she would have either needed more than just 5 minute cameo in ME2, or for it to be explored in one of the tie-in comics or books. 

I seriously doubt some one can become a successful information broker in the span of 2-3 years, it would most likely require a few decades of training/preparation in order to become a information broker in the first place.



#68
Han Shot First

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I seriously doubt some one can become a successful information broker in the span of 2-3 years, it would most likely require a few decades of training/preparation in order to become a information broker in the first place.

 

It would just take a good writer developing the story line over a period of time, just as the good writers behind Breaking Bad successfully turned a chemistry teacher into Pablo Escobar. 



#69
von uber

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I find complaining about liara taking 2-3 years to become good at a job contrived quite amusing, given this is a game featuring space batman, space jesus, genius waifu girl, miranda frankenstein and I can do teacher training in 6 months despite being a me tally damaged criminal.

But no, THAT'S the unbelievable character arc.
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#70
Han Shot First

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I find complaining about liara taking 2-3 years to become good at a job contrived quite amusing, given this is a game featuring space batman, space jesus, genius waifu girl, miranda frankenstein and I can do teacher training in 6 months despite being a me tally damaged criminal.

But no, THAT'S the unbelievable character arc.

 

There is also Joker being in the military despite the fact that a hard sneeze could break a rib.



#71
Mordokai

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I find complaining about liara taking 2-3 years to become good at a job contrived quite amusing, given this is a game featuring space batman, space jesus, genius waifu girl, miranda frankenstein and I can do teacher training in 6 months despite being a me tally damaged criminal.

But no, THAT'S the unbelievable character arc.

 

Butbutbut...

 

2 to 3 years!!!!



#72
agonis

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Hmmm... didn´t the Yagh Shadow Broker get his job just like Liara?

 

Well, of course, he had time to observe his predecessor while he was his "pet" but I doubt he spent this valuable time sitting on the old SB´s lap or watching over his shoulder...



#73
Wulfram

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The silly thing about Liara's story is that the whole Shadowbroker thing is pretty superfluous to her role in the plot. Really, I don't know why they insisted on making all the ME1 crew get massive promotions. It made sense for Wrex, but otherwise it's mostly contrived and IMO hurts their story.

Anyway, I disagree with the OP. I want there to be characters that are important to the plot who aren't the protagonist. I found the irrelevance of the companions in DAI (other than Cassandra pre-Skyhold, and secretly [spoiler]) rather annoying.

#74
BraveVesperia

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By ME3, having Liara on the Normandy (let alone the ground crew) seems so silly. A Prothean expert and scientist, who is also the Shadow Broker and has extensive first-hand experience with the Reaper issue? She should be working on the Crucible directly (she could still feed info back to Shepard from there). Unlike EDI, she can't do both at once (though I would've prefered EDI to remain as the ship). It doesn't make any sense for her skills to be wasted by having her run around shooting things instead.



#75
Fade9wayz

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By ME3, having Liara on the Normandy (let alone the ground crew) seems so silly. A Prothean expert and scientist, who is also the Shadow Broker and has extensive first-hand experience with the Reaper issue? She should be working on the Crucible directly (she could still feed info back to Shepard from there). Unlike EDI, she can't do both at once (though I would've prefered EDI to remain as the ship). It doesn't make any sense for her skills to be wasted by having her run around shooting things instead.

Just like Mordin or Miranda, but oooh, look at them going pewpew...