118 réponses à ce sujet

[Wulfram]

Really, Shepard is rather too important to be doing all this stupidly risky stuff.

[WittyUsername]

In a project, there's always going to be people with differing levels of importance. I rather they write characters well who simply fill a needed role rather than write characters with an equally shared mindset.

You haven't tried, have you?

 

I've said before, far as I'm aware, there are no colleges for information brokering. So it's pretty much a self thought discipline. Some people may be naturally talented at it. I'm willing to accept Liara's one of them. You and Mikey boy and many other haters are not. And I'm a-ok with that. But the fact that Liara is a successful information broker lends credence to her, not you.

 

It's odd for Liara to be one, honestly. She was really different than her ME1 personality. She used to not be able to even pick up on sarcasm well, she was a nervous wreck with rather poor social skills.

 

The fact that she became one, in a field where you have to be able to talk to people, read people, says a lot about the story she was given, her becoming the Shadow Broker, or an information broker in general, was a real after thought.

[Inquisitor_Jonah]

Look, they did this in DA: Inquisition, and look how it ended. None of the characters actually felt that important for the story. I'm not saying they are not likable, I love most of them, but in the end, they all just felt like I could have anyone in their place and It wouldn't really matter for the story

Spoiler

Apart from Solas, obviously

That didn't happen to most of ME's squad, they were there because they were needed there, and even the ones that weren't managed to own their place.

So no, don't diminish the squadmate's importance, they need to be connected to the narrative so they don't feel completely random.

They might have overdone it a little with Liara I agree, it would be best if they toned her importance down a little. Maybe if they had made so that she worked with the Virmire survivor to rescue Shepard's body would make way more sense, and would respect the player's choices more. But then again, I wished they scraped the stupid idea of killing Shepard in the beginning of ME2 in the first place.

[Arcian]

This.

I thank people when they point out that I'm wrong, because I want very much not to be wrong. So if I am, I want to know. That's the only way I'll stop being wrong.

Pointing out errors and offering corrections is helping.

It makes me very happy to see I'm not the only one with this as my life philosophy.

[Nethershadow]

I seriously doubt some one can become a successful information broker in the span of 2-3 years, it would most likely require a few decades of training/preparation in order to become a information broker in the first place.

As has been pointed out there is no college for Information Broker, and it's more I suspect a skill set based on natural perception, I could see psychology helping a lot, but in general this is a role that a shady person falls into probably because they have natural talents for it.

 

A decade to become proficient in this sounds ludicrous. We have had people of very little education go into roles that normally require advanced training and succeed very well at it. A good example is the catch me if you can con artist that learned multitude of professions, ending as a airline pilot without an ounce of training for it. So Liara becoming the shadow broker for me really wasn't a stretch.

 

In a project, there's always going to be people with differing levels of importance. I rather they write characters well who simply fill a needed role rather than write characters with an equally shared mindset.

 

It's odd for Liara to be one, honestly. She was really different than her ME1 personality. She used to not be able to even pick up on sarcasm well, she was a nervous wreck with rather poor social skills.

 

The fact that she became one, in a field where you have to be able to talk to people, read people, says a lot about the story she was given, her becoming the Shadow Broker, or an information broker in general, was a real after thought.

Without really seeing a good look at the gap between 1-2-3 for Liara, the transition of her personality is harder to see.

 

From 1 to 2, she started as naive and socially awkward, but that doesn't mean she can't learn and adapt to to those social skills, and personalities grow, and I think hers was in a direction that is plausible. Some people just have a natural talent for some things, and they might just start in that field and quickly surpass those that have been doing it all their life. 

[themikefest]

Liara in ME1 talked about the Prothean and how much time she spent studying them.  Even on Ilos after talking with Vigil she's more interested in studying the archives then chasing Saren. So why all of sudden does she forget about the Protheans and go into information?

 

There is no reason for her to be a broker. Why didn't she make any effort to find a way to stop the reapers? She did the same thing the other ME1 characters did. Scatter like c**kroaches all over the galaxy ignoring the reapers. I guess they figured that  Shepard is dead, so that means the reaper threat is dead as well

 

The broker dlc could've been done differently. Have Cerberus recover the body. During ME2, Shepard and squad deal with the broker. If reputation/paragon/renegade is high enough, the broker is willing to work with Shepard and gives him/her all information about the Protheans. Shepard gives that information to T'soni. 

 

Or if the broker doesn't cooperate, he is killed and Shepard takes all information he/she can and gives it to T'soni

 

If the dlc isn't completed, the broker sends the information to Liara and in ME3 sends emails to Shepard  with information to collect assets.

 

Its interesting that Shepard has the option to send Ashley/Kaidan to Hackett, but not Liara. What would Ashley/Kaidan be doing? Sending LIara to Hackett would be better since she can help translate the plans

[Steelcan]

I find complaining about liara taking 2-3 years to become good at a job contrived quite amusing, given this is a game featuring space batman, space jesus, genius waifu girl, miranda frankenstein and I can do teacher training in 6 months despite being a me tally damaged criminal.

But no, THAT'S the unbelievable character arc.

to be perfectly fair I don't care for any of those character arcs, and I was actively facepalming at the Jack one.

 

But as for the others, Garrus has experience as a C-Sec officer, so going rogue and vigilante on Omega isn't that unbelievable as he has training in law enforcement as well as the mandatory military service all turians undergo.  Space Jesus, no argument there either.  I assume you mean Tali by "genius waifu girl" and whil it is true she was suddenly made a lot more important than perhaps she should be in 2/3 there is little doubt that she has always been adept with technology.  For Miranda, no I don't find genetic modification all that unrealistic in the setting, despite its use mostly coming around for ass shots.

[Quarian Master Race]

Yet another thread about Liara. I'd hardly be suprised if she ends up in ME:A just as a writer troll move.

Now, her getting LOTSB when the VS got nothing was pretty much popularity rules ( but no moreso than Garrus or Tali's role in the game), but her central role in ME3 is more incidental of the fact that every other ME1 character could be dead due to nonsensical design (in particular the SM). If they didn't want to use up word budget including scenes where every squadmate could be confidant in those scenes, Liara was the obvious choice over the only other two mandatory squadmates (James, who had no previous relationship with Shep, and EDI who doesn't even understand organics). Further, the VS and Tali aren't even acquired until about halfway through, so wouldn't have been available for some of those scenes anyway. The only real (relative) problem I have with her is that she is the one who recovers Shep's corpse even if you didn't have a particularly close relationship in ME1 (though the whole death was a contrived plot device as is, so she's hardly the worst thing about it).

Anyway, Bioware is all about writer/ fan favouritism when it comes to recurring characters so I doubt this request is going to be heeded.
 

I find complaining about liara taking 2-3 years to become good at a job contrived quite amusing, given this is a game featuring space batman, space jesus, genius waifu girl, miranda frankenstein and I can do teacher training in 6 months despite being a me tally damaged criminal.

But no, THAT'S the unbelievable character arc.

In comparison, no, some of those really aren't unbelivable. Space Batman (more like Space Punisher given the bodycount) has elite military operative and LEO training. Even that is not enough to keep him from getting his entire squad killed by criminal lowlifes. His one defining attribute other than shooting things in the face seems to be deferring to and executing space Jesus's plans (more on that later). He eventually makes an okay general/strategic advisor, but it's not as if his strategies are great, as they still get millions of people killed. His arc is not very unbelievable at all given his background.

Genius waifu girl (is that an occupation? Because if so I'm pretty mad that my Femshep couldn't romance her, nor was she avaliable at all in the first game) also has military training and is from a species and society known for producing technical geniuses where she was given every oppourtunity to succeed at becoming one.That said, she isn't actually any good at doing anything other than her MOS. She gets put in charge of Marine squads that she promptly goes about letting mutiny or taking like 95% casualties. Her folk hero status then gets her a political promotion to Admiral, which she is equally (and self admittely) not at all qualified for, and pretty much makes an absolute hash of. Again, not unbelivable given her area of expertise.

Miranda's creation is a contrivance by our standards of modern science, but if you accept the premise behind it than I don't know how one could consider the rest of the character unbelievable. She was genetically designed to be good at the things she's good at and is a physically and mentally a prodigy (for a human). Sure she leads Lazarus to ultimate success, but despite her genetic tailoring she still manages to get outfoxed by regular old human Maya Brooks, who kills an entire team she commands.  She also ends up dying if Space Jesus (again) doesn't give her help. Despite being designed as a literal Mary Sue, she's not all that Mary Sue-ish.

However, you're absolutely right about the other two. Liara's sudden and inexplicable ability to go from socially inept, hilariously idealistic bookworm to ruthless criminal running her own spy ring is comic book stuff, but no moreso than the biotic test subject turned mass murderer being given a teaching job at probably the most important academy in the Alliance (given the difference in scale of their responsibilities is quite significant). Further, neither of them and nothing else in the setting holds a candle to Space Jesus, whose ability to shoot things in the face apparently makes her/him qualified to command entire fleets, decide the fate of entire species (even though their leaders are often standing right there) and conflicts that have gone on for centuries or millenia with magic diplomacy, and eventually be personally responsible for the fate of every being in the galaxy. Again, Shepard is a glorified grunt by occupation.

People take this setting to seriously. It is a glorified comic book universe and power fantasy where the PC and all of their companions are either geniuses in their field or Marty and Mary Sues who can do whatever is convenient to the writers at the time despite their complete lack of credentials.

 

[AlanC9]

It's funny how little this unbelievability argument was played back when ME2 was released.

[Sartoz]

That has got to one of the most ridiculous things I've ever heard, information brokering and archeology have absolutely nothing in common. Being an information broker would require being one step ahead of the competition, dealing with cooperate espionage and keeping all contacts in cheek, none of that is involved with archeology.

 

Liara has no experience/traning being a information broker the only reason why she's good is because the writers wanted her to be relevant to the plot. It would've been a lot more believable if Bioware made a new character who is actually a professional information broker instead of using a past character who isn't even one to begin with.

 

                                                                                  <<<<<<<<<<()>>>>>>>>>>

 

Pft!

The Shadow Broker is nothing more than an Information Broker. One that collects information about people and their activities. Archeology is the study of human activity in the past. Both require certain common thinking skills. In effect, Liara is now studying humanoid activities in the present and past (though not far in the past).  A job, she is quite suited to do.

 

Besides, she took over the Shadow Broker's Control of the network with none of the network underlings being even remotely aware that control changed hands. As far as they are concerned, they still work for the Shadow Broker.

 

Naysayers are just jumping at the gun,  looking for any excuse to refuse recognizing an artist (Dr. T'Soni) at work.

 

Morpheus: "Know what happened happend and that it couldn't have happened in any other way.."

[Cancermeat]

I just hate how Bioware makes your character the center piece of their stories.  I think its good sometimes but it gets old.

[von uber]

The reason I called her Miranda frankenstein is not because of how she was created but because of her creation - shepard. She is literally frankenstein.

As pointed out all the shadow broker appears to be is basically a manager of teams who then deals I'm information. Sounds like any other mid level corporate job.

[Steelcan]

                                                                                  <<<<<<<<<<()>>>>>>>>>>

 

Pft!

The Shadow Broker is nothing more than an Information Broker. One that collects information about people and their activities. Archeology is the study of human activity in the past. Both require certain common thinking skills. In effect, Liara is now studying humanoid activities in the present and past (though not far in the past).  A job, she is quite suited to do.

 

Besides, she took over the Shadow Broker's Control of the network with none of the network underlings being even remotely aware that control changed hands. As far as they are concerned, they still work for the Shadow Broker.

 

Naysayers are just jumping at the gun,  looking for any excuse to refuse recognizing an artist (Dr. T'Soni) at work.

 

Morpheus: "Know what happened happend and that it couldn't have happened in any other way.."

except that's not what she's doing, she's relaying information to her agents, hacking into bases, and other nonsense that not even Indian Jones tried

[WidePaul]

I always just assumed liara was given so much importance as she is the only squadmate from all 3 games that will definitely be alive in 3, any/all of the others can be killed or never recruited, which I guess can be seen as favouritism in itself.

[Nethershadow]

Yet another thread about Liara. I'd hardly be suprised if she ends up in ME:A just as a writer troll move.

Now, her getting LOTSB when the VS got nothing was pretty much popularity rules ( but no moreso than Garrus or Tali's role in the game), but her central role in ME3 is more incidental of the fact that every other ME1 character could be dead due to nonsensical design (in particular the SM). If they didn't want to use up word budget including scenes where every squadmate could be confidant in those scenes, Liara was the obvious choice over the only other two mandatory squadmates (James, who had no previous relationship with Shep, and EDI who doesn't even understand organics). Further, the VS and Tali aren't even acquired until about halfway through, so wouldn't have been available for some of those scenes anyway. The only real (relative) problem I have with her is that she is the one who recovers Shep's corpse even if you didn't have a particularly close relationship in ME1 (though the whole death was a contrived plot device as is, so she's hardly the worst thing about it).

Anyway, Bioware is all about writer/ fan favouritism when it comes to recurring characters so I doubt this request is going to be heeded.
 

In comparison, no, some of those really aren't unbelivable. Space Batman (more like Space Punisher given the bodycount) has elite military operative and LEO training. Even that is not enough to keep him from getting his entire squad killed by criminal lowlifes. His one defining attribute other than shooting things in the face seems to be deferring to and executing space Jesus's plans (more on that later). He eventually makes an okay general/strategic advisor, but it's not as if his strategies are great, as they still get millions of people killed. His arc is not very unbelievable at all given his background.

Genius waifu girl (is that an occupation? Because if so I'm pretty mad that my Femshep couldn't romance her, nor was she avaliable at all in the first game) also has military training and is from a species and society known for producing technical geniuses where she was given every oppourtunity to succeed at becoming one.That said, she isn't actually any good at doing anything other than her MOS. She gets put in charge of Marine squads that she promptly goes about letting mutiny or taking like 95% casualties. Her folk hero status then gets her a political promotion to Admiral, which she is equally (and self admittely) not at all qualified for, and pretty much makes an absolute hash of. Again, not unbelivable given her area of expertise.

Miranda's creation is a contrivance by our standards of modern science, but if you accept the premise behind it than I don't know how one could consider the rest of the character unbelievable. She was genetically designed to be good at the things she's good at and is a physically and mentally a prodigy (for a human). Sure she leads Lazarus to ultimate success, but despite her genetic tailoring she still manages to get outfoxed by regular old human Maya Brooks, who kills an entire team she commands.  She also ends up dying if Space Jesus (again) doesn't give her help. Despite being designed as a literal Mary Sue, she's not all that Mary Sue-ish.

However, you're absolutely right about the other two. Liara's sudden and inexplicable ability to go from socially inept, hilariously idealistic bookworm to ruthless criminal running her own spy ring is comic book stuff, but no moreso than the biotic test subject turned mass murderer being given a teaching job at probably the most important academy in the Alliance (given the difference in scale of their responsibilities is quite significant). Further, neither of them and nothing else in the setting holds a candle to Space Jesus, whose ability to shoot things in the face apparently makes her/him qualified to command entire fleets, decide the fate of entire species (even though their leaders are often standing right there) and conflicts that have gone on for centuries or millenia with magic diplomacy, and eventually be personally responsible for the fate of every being in the galaxy. Again, Shepard is a glorified grunt by occupation.

People take this setting to seriously. It is a glorified comic book universe and power fantasy where the PC and all of their companions are either geniuses in their field or Marty and Mary Sues who can do whatever is convenient to the writers at the time despite their complete lack of credentials.

 

I can see what you're saying and agree with much of it, but when said like that it makes one wonder who would have liked this game let alone being so popular as it is.

 

Who is space Batman?

I really can't think of who remotely comes across as Batman in space except maybe Liara but I can see that's not the reference here.

 

As for Shep, that is one thing about him that always bothered me, was that he needed to be a strategic and tactical prodigy, something the guy could grasp quickly and easier than others in space or on the ground. So mentally he needed to be Batman's equivalent. They needed to show us that he had some type of skills that made him a big threat to people plans while out thinking and out maneuvering them instead of just we can persevere can-do mentality without anything to back it up.

 

In Miranda's case of being duped by Maya, just because she is so amazing (i really mean that) and the best squady of them all, yes even more so than Liara, doesn't mean she can't be fooled, just like a genius can be tricked. She is the only one I see standing on par with the Shep.

 

As for Jack and her psycho's, as good of a character I think she is, I would have a hard time letting them be the people to teach the standard to our students. I can suspend that standard in grave time though such as this and that's probably why I don't consider it as unlikely as if it wasn't such a grave war.

 

But in the end I'm crazy about Mass Effect, and even though it has continuity error and some things don't necessarily make the most sense, it has so many things I love about it.

 

And holy, you're full of surprises as here I thought you would be all on Tali's side, backing her up and telling use how amazeballz she is, but instead tell us she's just another space rat.

It's ok, you don't have to admit to smiling at that and I won't tell anyone.

 

I know, you're hating on me because of space rats, but good chat.

[Inquisitor_Jonah]

I wonder...can you skip the Liara recruitment mission in ME1? I never did, since even with all the mary sue thing her character has I still like her, but I know Virmire  triggers after you complete two of the 3 story missions. And I wonder what consequences skipping her mission would bring to ME2.... maybe Miranda could accompany Feron to rescue Shepard's body?

[KaiserShep]

No. Liara is mandatory, since she's the only one that unlocks Ilos. You can hold it off for a long time though.

[Sartoz]

except that's not what she's doing, she's relaying information to her agents, hacking into bases, and other nonsense that not even Indian Jones tried

 

except that's not what she's doing, she's relaying information to her agents, hacking into bases, and other nonsense that not even Indian Jones tried

 

                                                                           <<<<<<<<<<()>>>>>>>>>>

 

What! Are you saying the original Shadow Broker never did that? or had the underlings do it? 

 

Come now, you can do better than that! At the moment you are grasping at straws...

[Quarian Master Race]

I can see what you're saying and agree with much of it, but when said like that it makes one wonder who would have liked this game let alone being so popular as it is.

 

Who is space Batman?

I really can't think of who remotely comes across as Batman in space except maybe Liara but I can see that's not the reference here.

I like it because I love the setting, (some of) the characters, and accept it for what it is as a quite soft example of Science Fiction.

Space Batman= Garrus, though I don't get why people occasionally characterize him that way. Batman doesn't kill people, and Garrus doesn't have a privileged background nor a civilian alter ego. They're both all about "justice" but have very different ideas of what that entails.
 

In Miranda's case of being duped by Maya, just because she is so amazing (i really mean that) and the best squady of them all, yes even more so than Liara, doesn't mean she can't be fooled, just like a genius can be tricked. She is the only one I see standing on par with the Shep.

 

As for Jack and her psycho's, as good of a character I think she is, I would have a hard time letting them be the people to teach the standard to our students. I can suspend that standard in grave time though such as this and that's probably why I don't consider it as unlikely as if it wasn't such a grave war.

Sure, she's obviously very competent at a lot of things, but that is pretty much the basis of her character as a genetically designed perfect human. Comparing her to the huge changes Liara goes through over the series (and manages to be a success at) was more of what I was referencing her for. I don't find Miranda's arc to have that many contrivances like I thought the other poster was implying.

I like Jack, but she's again another one of those comic book like characters similar to Liara. Her biotic prodigy status doesn't really matter to her teaching ability. Realistically, you don't just go from violent criminal to teacher in 6 months especially if you've a past of mental issues like hers. However, "realistically" is a stupid basis to make arguments about this series.

 

And holy, you're full of surprises as here I thought you would be all on Tali's side, backing her up and telling use how amazeballz she is, but instead tell us she's just another space rat.
 

Tali's incredibly good at her areas of expertise (software and mechanical engineering), but never suddenly develops skills in other areas because plot. She doesn't become an expert small unit tactician or brilliant fleet Admiral versed in space warfare just because she is promoted to being one (if she is, she can also be exiled) due to politics. Further, she has humility and acknowledges her limitations. I don't think her personal development arcs are that hard to believe or don't flow naturally from her initial characterization.

[Battlebloodmage]

Look, they did this in DA: Inquisition, and look how it ended. None of the characters actually felt that important for the story. I'm not saying they are not likable, I love most of them, but in the end, they all just felt like I could have anyone in their place and It wouldn't really matter for the story

Spoiler

Apart from Solas, obviously

That didn't happen to most of ME's squad, they were there because they were needed there, and even the ones that weren't managed to own their place.

So no, don't diminish the squadmate's importance, they need to be connected to the narrative so they don't feel completely random.

They might have overdone it a little with Liara I agree, it would be best if they toned her importance down a little. Maybe if they had made so that she worked with the Virmire survivor to rescue Shepard's body would make way more sense, and would respect the player's choices more. But then again, I wished they scraped the stupid idea of killing Shepard in the beginning of ME2 in the first place.

I don't get how me saying don't centralize on a single character is the same as making all squadmates irrelevant. 

[Dantriges]

Perhaps I got it wrong but I thought that Tali was the leader of the expedition on Haestrom but Kal´Rheegar was the one responsible for security and commanding the marines.

 

Jack, ah well, not the first time someone was shoved into a position that person isn´t really suited for. Could be that some official thought: We are training military applications of biotics at Grissom, she is the strongest one, humanity has (questionable but well) and actual experience fighting weird stuff, give her a job.

[Inquisitor_Jonah]

I don't get how me saying don't centralize on a single character is the same as making all squadmates irrelevant. 

I was not refereeing to the main subject of the topic in that post, I made that post in a hurry to respond a single comment in this topic (wich now I can't seem to find lol). I should have quoted it, sorry for the little confusion.

[Drone223]

As has been pointed out there is no college for Information Broker, and it's more I suspect a skill set based on natural perception, I could see psychology helping a lot, but in general this is a role that a shady person falls into probably because they have natural talents for it.

 

A decade to become proficient in this sounds ludicrous. We have had people of very little education go into roles that normally require advanced training and succeed very well at it. A good example is the catch me if you can con artist that learned multitude of professions, ending as a airline pilot without an ounce of training for it. So Liara becoming the shadow broker for me really wasn't a stretch.

 

Without really seeing a good look at the gap between 1-2-3 for Liara, the transition of her personality is harder to see.

 

From 1 to 2, she started as naive and socially awkward, but that doesn't mean she can't learn and adapt to to those social skills, and personalities grow, and I think hers was in a direction that is plausible. Some people just have a natural talent for some things, and they might just start in that field and quickly surpass those that have been doing it all their life. 

Except becoming an information broker isn't going to be as simple as picking it up, having the right skills to be a information broker is important and Liara has none of that.

 

                                                                                  <<<<<<<<<<()>>>>>>>>>>

 

Pft!

The Shadow Broker is nothing more than an Information Broker. One that collects information about people and their activities. Archeology is the study of human activity in the past. Both require certain common thinking skills. In effect, Liara is now studying humanoid activities in the present and past (though not far in the past).  A job, she is quite suited to do.

 

Besides, she took over the Shadow Broker's Control of the network with none of the network underlings being even remotely aware that control changed hands. As far as they are concerned, they still work for the Shadow Broker.

 

Naysayers are just jumping at the gun,  looking for any excuse to refuse recognizing an artist (Dr. T'Soni) at work.

 

Morpheus: "Know what happened happend and that it couldn't have happened in any other way.."

I've said it many times so I'll say it again information brokering and archeology have absolutely nothing in common. Being an information broker would require being one step ahead of the competition, dealing with cooperate espionage and keeping all contacts in cheek, none of that is involved with archeology and Liara has no experience in any of those things.

[von uber]

I'm a Civil Engineer. That has nothing to do with cooking. Yet I am a pretty good cook.

 

It's like I learnt something new! Amazing!

[Han Shot First]

Except becoming an information broker isn't going to be as simple as picking it up, having the right skills to be a information broker is important and Liara has none of that.

 

 

 

Neither did the Illusive Man in his backstory.