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[Narcosynthesis]

 

I think the problem with the Warden, specifically, is that during the game's development the writers weren't sure that Origins would be successful enough to warrant a long-running franchise based on Thedas' world: leaving the protagonist's fate vague and open-ended made sense back then; but now, reintroducing the Warden means going through the trouble of addressing the tangle of schrodinger plot threads they created alongside this character.

 

 

^This. 

I agree. In some interview a few months ago David Gaider very much said as much, though his statement was about the nature of the epilogue slides at the end if I remember corrrectly, but the point remains the same: while they certainly hoped that DAO would be successful enough to be turned into the franchise they were hoping for, they had no guarantee it would happen. My guess is that while the idea of "the world Thedas is the center of the story, not a single protagonist" may have been something in the back of their heads from the very beginning, the main priority while writing of course had to be to make DAO a good enough game to warrant a sequel, meaningful choices being an important instrument in that.

[Dai Grepher]

It's because the Hero is too big of an undertaking for BioWare, at least during Inquisition. They had enough on their plate trying to create a new game from scratch.

 

Now that the game has been made however, they should be able to take what is already there and now build on it. They should also be able to tackle the issue of the Hero. Most of this will even be left to the player. We would recreate the Hero in the custom character creator, as many of us have already done, myself included. Players should also be allowed to set their Heroes' personalities in the Keep, as well as their goals and relationships. Another thing players can set in Keep are the talents/spells and skills of the Heroes.

 

BioWare's job will be getting the same voice actors where possible or similar ones where not, writing the lines that fit the personalities described in Keep, and then opening up the class restricted stuff so that classes in DA:I can use all the weapons that could be used in DA:O.

 

This is NOT that hard to do.

 

Now personally, I thought that Anora's involvement in DA:I was lacking. She will only show up at Redcliffe if you sided with mages. And her design, while acceptable, isn't really all that close. They didn't even get her hair style right. Calpernia actually has Anora's hairstyle now. I don't know why they couldn't give that to Anora. Her dress was also plain, and I saw commoners wearing the same thing in the village. Anora should have shown up in other parts of the game. Possibly at Halamshiral. It would have been interesting to actually get to TALK to her. She could have provided info about the Hero, even if she wasn't married to the Hero in some cases. She also could have provided a secret about Celene, seeing as how she doesn't like her. She could have revealed that she found out about what Cailan was trying to orchestrate with her. Dropping that secret, that Celene planned to merge Orlais with Ferelden, would be a scandal among quite a few nobles. I also think she should have shown up in the Arbor Wilds with the Ferelden army.

 

Personally, I wanted to see Aeonar in Inquisition, with Highever as a starting point for the mission. That way we would see Fergus again, and also one of the Ferelden monarchs, in my case, Anora.

[TheKomandorShepard]

Now that the game has been made however, they should be able to take what is already there and now build on it. They should also be able to tackle the issue of the Hero. Most of this will even be left to the player. We would recreate the Hero in the custom character creator, as many of us have already done, myself included. Players should also be allowed to set their Heroes' personalities in the Keep, as well as their goals and relationships. Another thing players can set in Keep are the talents/spells and skills of the Heroes.

 

Yeah, avoiding that warden was much more complex than hawke and 3 predetermined personalities ,they couldn't even pull that with hawke to what they admited. 

[Dai Grepher]

Yeah, avoiding that warden was much more complex than hawke and 3 predetermined personalities ,they couldn't even pull that with hawke to what they admited. 

 

That's because of laziness. They clearly didn't even try. They needed Here Lies the Abyss to go in a specific direction and they foolishly used Hawke's dialogue to make that happen.

 

Even so, this fit my Hawke perfectly. But the rant against blood magic is something BioWare should have known would cause controversy regarding world states. Hawke's problem should have been with the Wardens summoning demons, not using blood magic specifically. They also could have had a tile in Keep asking the players what their Hawke thought of blood magic. That would have solved a lot of problems.
 

[TheKomandorShepard]

That's because of laziness. They clearly didn't even try. They needed Here Lies the Abyss to go in a specific direction and they foolishly used Hawke's dialogue to make that happen.

 

Even so, this fit my Hawke perfectly. But the rant against blood magic is something BioWare should have known would cause controversy regarding world states. Hawke's problem should have been with the Wardens summoning demons, not using blood magic specifically. They also could have had a tile in Keep asking the players what their Hawke thought of blood magic. That would have solved a lot of problems.
 

Not necessarily because of laziness ,if they put somone as npc they don't have unlimited resources and time to provide a large numbers of varieties even picking hawke personality barely have any influence and it does influence only minimal numbers of dialogues.

 

Considering they used hawke as one of reasons why they won't bring the warden it is clear they have tried just failed.

[Kakistos_]

I feel the same as well. I don't really buy the excuses as to why the Warden Hero or Orlesian Warden cannot make a cameo. They may work for now but what will the excuse be in a few years when DA4 is in development with better tech?

[Dai Grepher]

Not necessarily because of laziness ,if they put somone as npc they don't have unlimited resources and time to provide a large numbers of varieties even picking hawke personality barely have any influence and it does influence only minimal numbers of dialogues.

 

Considering they used hawke as one of reasons why they won't bring the warden it is clear they have tried just failed.

 

Or they failed on purpose with the Champion so that they don't even have to try with the Hero.

 

The only reason it had little influence is because BioWare put forth little effort.

[Nixou]

Not necessarily because of laziness ,if they put somone as npc they don't have unlimited resources and time to provide a large numbers of varieties even picking hawke personality barely have any influence and it does influence only minimal numbers of dialogues.

 

 

It's not simply that the character was brought back as an NPC: it's that s/he didn't have much screen-time.

 

There's like 60 traits and choices carried over from the Keep, but given Hawke's rather limited involvement time-wise in Inquisition's story, these remain woefully underused.

 

Of course, such a choice makes sense: give too much screen-time to a previous protagonist and the game cease to be the Inquisitor's tale.

 

Which leads to the writers current conundrum regarding Origin's protagonist: they can

• Keep the Warden "somewhere else", but people will keep demanding a comeback and they can't exactly use that trick with every subsequent main character
• Kill the Warden offscreen (and ******-off a large segment of the audience to a degree not seen since Shepard failed to turn the Reapers into giant ice-creams)
• Bring the Warden back as a glorified cameo, which will probably not please the audience
• Bring the Warden back as an important character in a main game of the series, where s/he will probably overshadow the intended protagonist
• Bring the Warden back as a the protagonist in a main game, which will break the new-protagonist-every-episode pattern
• Bring the Warden back as the PC of an expansion/side-story, which will cost a lot of resources for what is essentially fan-service and will most probably not satisfy the people who want the Warden back who will keep demanding more Warden... Unless they kill him/her, which presents quite a few advantages: it closes the Warden's story for good, definitely cut-off the gordian knot of plot-threads linked to the character, cement the fact that Dragon Age is indeed not the tale of a particular hero, And, last but not least, next time people start clamoring "Bring back beloved character X", "Remember what they did to the Warden" will be an efficient way to shut them up.

Modifié par Nixou, 30 juillet 2015 - 09:17 .

[TheKomandorShepard]

Or they failed on purpose with the Champion so that they don't even have to try with the Hero.

 

The only reason it had little influence is because BioWare put forth little effort.

Yes, they have put resources and time into something to screw it up, just they don't have bring character they don't have bring in first place.

 

 

 

It's not simply that the character was brought back as an NPC: it's that s/he didn't have much screen-time.

 

There's like 60 traits and choices carried over from the Keep, but given Hawke's rather limited involvement time-wise in Inquisition's story, these remain woefully underused.

 

Of course, such a choice makes sense: give too much screen-time to a previous protagonist and the game cease to be the Inquisitor's tale.

 

More screen time wouldn't help by any way, it would pretty much require even more resources and time to create even more variations ,technically they could have handle hawke ,as again hawke was less complex and much more defined than the warden but then again to do it properly they would need significant amount of time and resources.

 

 

 

[Sifr]

 

Better send the Hero of Ferelden on a collision course toward a plotline death. Besides, it would be a thematically fitting conclusion to the Warden's tale, making it about how a mighty warrior tried and ultimately failed to cheat death.

 

I actually really enjoy this idea, because despite how many people seem to think that the Warden will just magic up a solution, the whole quest for the cure always struck me as something that was a glorified snipe hunt and pipe dream rolled into one.

 

Not that I want the Warden or any protagonist to die pointlessly (part of why I hated Hawke's potential death in HLTA was because it felt so cheap), but if we have to lose them, then it should have some meaning.

 

I'd prefer the writers make it so that to gain the knowledge of a cure, or even the breakthrough that could lead to one eventually, should come at the cost of the Warden's own life. This would finally force them to confront their own mortality without any last minute reprieve from an ally, finally embracing the tenet of sacrifice that the Wardens are supposed to be all about.

 

Yeah, in the Ultimate Sacrifice playthrough this would mean that this task and sacrifice was taken up by another Grey Warden, but it does not diminish the importance of that event and knowledge that in a reality where the Warden was alive, they would have made that choice themselves.

 

Exploring the Wardens unbound from the Calling in a future game could be interesting, such as how that would shift the balance of power. With their members living full lives and their leadership no longer in constant flux, they could operate less in the shadows (a sentiment that was voiced in Inquisition) and attempt to expand their influence in the same manner that the Inquisition has.

[JAZZ_LEG3ND]

I can imagine the Warden's lack of a voice--the delivery is most of the character's personality--is something preventing the Warden from showing up. What each player produced in their mind from the text options in Origins would be different from one another, and from what Bioware would choose, and that is a headache no one wants to deal with.

Hawke's role in Inquisition felt a lot like a slap in the face. I liked Dragon Age II. The Warden may not show up, but there's massive amounts of hero worship going on. I made a world-state in the Keep where my Warden was a complete c***, and Thedas remained frighteningly adamant that the Maker's righteous fire flowed out his arse.

No matter what Hawke did, you can only approach her with suspicion and mockery. The cameo was so poorly handled, I’d have preferred it if Hawke didn’t show up at all. Perpetual irreversible dissatisfaction and disappointment. An aspect of Inquisition I prefer not to think about.

[diaspora2k5]

Well, based off of this, isn't it essentially confirmed that he/she succeeds on their mission and comes back? At least in this specific scenario?

 

edit: Spoilers I guess. Anyway, if the two of them have a happy ending, I'd assume it means he/she completed their mission right?

[riverbanks]

Well, based off of this, isn't it essentially confirmed that he/she succeeds on their mission and comes back? At least in this specific scenario?

 

edit: Spoilers I guess. Anyway, if the two of them have a happy ending, I'd assume it means he/she completed their mission right?

 

Not necessarily? All that says is that the Warden comes back and continues their relationship with Leliana in that scenario. No implication that their taint has actually been cured - it could just as well be that they have a happy ending until the Calling inevitably takes the Warden to the Deep Roads again for a last time. Curing the taint is kind of a big deal to toss out into one minor of several optional endings, isn't it.

 

No matter what Hawke did, you can only approach her with suspicion and mockery.

 

I'll disagree with this and offer that it really depends on your Hawke's and your Inquisitor's personalities and alignments. My main Hawke and Inquisitor had similar beliefs and sounded very respectful and trusting of each other, I never sensed any suspicion or mockery between them - my alt Hawke and Inquisitor on the other hand sounded pretty snippy at each other, but they were like night and day and were obviously going to clash. I think that's a good thing? That there is some responsiveness to your roleplaying choices, even if it's not perfect. You have to take that into account too, sometimes your heroes won't like each other very much, even though you're the same person roleplaying all of them.

[Nixou]

You have to take that into account too, sometimes your heroes won't like each other very much, even though you're the same person roleplaying all of them.

 

 

It's actually one of the main reasons I prefer the one-protagonist-per-main-game rule to, say, Mass Effect's model: it gives players the opportunity to portray protagonists with widely different temperaments and worldviews, which gives more substance to the story as a whole.

[Aren]

Dragon Age is about the world of Thedas, not the hero of the week. The Warden is gone because their story has been told, they're just not relevant to the events we're focusing on anymore. Hawke had their closure arc in Inquisition because their game had an open ending that didn't conclude their story, but now that they got their last hurrah they'll be gone too. Soon the Inquisitor will say their goodbyes too, and the world will move on, with or without them.

It's not about the specific hero you're playing, it's about the world you're shaping. The best you can do is enjoy your heroes while you're playing in their shoes, but learn to let go as well when their time has come.

Think about it - no complains when you move from hero to hero in Elder Scrolls, Fallout, etc, and your old character is barely acknowleged anymore. It's the same here; a larger story that goes beyond the one specific person we play in each game. Dragon Age was never about the Warden. They were only the first in a line of many different people who'll shape the world in different ways for as long as we follow that story.

I completely share this thought,still i have an hard times to justify all the legion returning characters from the previous installment,they are there even when they are not needed,they jump over the world to meet my new heroes.

Thedas suffer of small world syndrome always the same people who save the world, if my old hero(which is better suited to continue relationship with old companions) is not present which is reasonable,i don't want to see all this legion of old companions .

It is reasonable that they ask for the Warden to come back,because they see all the old companions there,and they think,if they are present,then my warden can be involved.

If only Bioware could focus in create more characters instead to bring back the old ones.

[diaspora2k5]

Not necessarily? All that says is that the Warden comes back and continues their relationship with Leliana in that scenario. No implication that their taint has actually been cured - it could just as well be that they have a happy ending until the Calling inevitably takes the Warden to the Deep Roads again for a last time. Curing the taint is kind of a big deal to toss out into one minor of several optional endings, isn't it.

It's a big deal to the Wardens but to the rest of Thedas, it's pretty irrelevant. A demon taught Merril how to purge corruption iirc.

[ChoiceSpirit]

 

I completely share this thought,still i have an hard times to justify all the legion returning characters from the previous installment,they are there even when they are not needed,they jump over the world to meet my new heroes.

Thedas suffer of small world syndrome always the same people who save the world, if my old hero(which is better suited to continue relationship with old companions) is not present which is reasonable,i don't want to see all this legion of old companions .

It is reasonable that they ask for the Warden to come back,because they see all the old companions there,and they think,if they are present,then my warden can be involved.

If only Bioware could focus in create more characters instead to bring back the old ones.

 

 

It is funny, the reason I enjoyed the DA franchise so much is exactly because you can meet former companions in different games ; it really helped me relating to the whole story.

 

Even if I would enjoy seeing my warden again, I must say that I would rather have more mentions (with some codex entries/letters) about her and what she has done than having a real cameo... less risky but still interesting, in my opinion. However, if she ends up beeing killed, I still would like it to be onscreen (a cinematic with the warden fighting in the deeproads before he/she dies would be so badass).

 

(also I'm glad that the Warden may stay with Leliana)

[Sifr]

Think about it - no complains when you move from hero to hero in Elder Scrolls, Fallout, etc, and your old character is barely acknowleged anymore. It's the same here; a larger story that goes beyond the one specific person we play in each game. Dragon Age was never about the Warden. They were only the first in a line of many different people who'll shape the world in different ways for as long as we follow that story.

 

I agree with this sentiment completely... although I'd feel a little remiss to point out that the Hero of Kvatch did become the new Sheogorath at the end of the Shivering Isles DLC for Oblivion, so we technically did get a previous player cameo when they showed up in Skyrim.

 

(The Warden will regenerate into Hawke and the Inquisitor, semi-confirmed rumour)

 

 

[DWA824]

Dragon Age is about the world of Thedas, not the hero of the week. The Warden is gone because their story has been told, they're just not relevant to the events we're focusing on anymore. Hawke had their closure arc in Inquisition because their game had an open ending that didn't conclude their story, but now that they got their last hurrah they'll be gone too. Soon the Inquisitor will say their goodbyes too, and the world will move on, with or without them.

It's not about the specific hero you're playing, it's about the world you're shaping. The best you can do is enjoy your heroes while you're playing in their shoes, but learn to let go as well when their time has come.

Think about it - no complains when you move from hero to hero in Elder Scrolls, Fallout, etc, and your old character is barely acknowleged anymore. It's the same here; a larger story that goes beyond the one specific person we play in each game. Dragon Age was never about the Warden. They were only the first in a line of many different people who'll shape the world in different ways for as long as we follow that story.

The differnce with Elder Scrolls is that the PC is usally retired or at least doing there own thing by the next game. The Warden is looking for a cure so there still doing something important. If DAI said the Wardn was on a normal Grey Warden mission (Killing Darkspawn in the deep roads or fighting in Weisshaupt) than most fans would be fine with The Warden not showing up.

[Brockololly]

The differnce with Elder Scrolls is that the PC is usally retired or at least doing there own thing by the next game. The Warden is looking for a cure so there still doing something important. If DAI said the Wardn was on a normal Grey Warden mission (Killing Darkspawn in the deep roads or fighting in Weisshaupt) than most fans would be fine with The Warden not showing up.

Right, its fine if BioWare wants to keep the HoF offscreen, to a certain point. It does stretch credibility a bit when you have the Warden conspicuously absent when you're still getting old characters the Warden was closely tied to show up in Inquisition, like if you romanced Morrigan or Alistair or Leliana, there are quite a few instances where you might expect even a glimpse of the Warden, especially in the case of Morrigan or King Alistair.

But with Inquisition, where they leave the HoF does absolutely NOTHING to help BioWare's insistence that they're dead set on never showing the Warden Commander ever again. At least post Origins, you could kind of head canon your HoF doing whatever to some extent. The problem now is that they've set every Warden off on an interesting sounding quest that would seem to have both personal and global implications. Hell, that sounds like a pretty interesting quest that as a player, I'd like to see first hand! But nope!

Just look at games like The Witcher with the Ciri story bits or something like GTA V- there is no reason BioWare couldn't have you drop into the role of your HoF or the Orlesian Warden Commander in their quest to cure the Calling in some standalone DLC a la Wolfenstein The Old Blood or as part of the larger story in whatever the next big DA game is. And if you're playing as your Warden again, that solves the voice problem that BioWare seems so needlessly hung up on with the Warden ever showing up again. They've done differing dialogue styles in their games before- just look at how Leliana had voiced dialogue in Leliana's song even though Origins was non voiced.

It just seems like really poor storytelling to on one hand have writers like Weekes saying that the HoF's story was wrapped up and they "walked off into the sunset" post Origins, then come Inquisition, they drag up everyone close to the Warden and set them off on huge world shaking events and set the Warden off on some seemingly super important quest offscreen.