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#51
Boomshakalakalakaboom

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Oh please. You make it sound as if you (not you specifically, "you" in general) are some prophesied chosen one destined to deflower the fair maiden, as if virginity is a *thing* that you can hold in your hand with tangible value and worth. 

 

Stop dramatizing what I said.

 

 

7 billion people on this Earth, neither the virgin nor the person taking the virginity is special, and the act of the virginity being taken isn't some sacred ritual. No young people in any developed country actually cares who they first have sex with.

 

 

Yes, of course the 7 billion people on Earth hold the exact same opinion as you do. How silly of me.

 

 

There is really no point in discussing this with you. Where I can read your post and can honestly say that yes, most people wouldn't give two shits who they lost their virginity to, you on the other hand seem to lack the capability to understand that not everyone thinks the same way as you do and do actually have a completely different set of opinions and values that hold just as much worth as yours.  


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#52
Eliastion

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Oh, no, putting virginity on a pedestal is statistically normal, but that does not make it a healthy psychological, social, phenomenon. (...)

I'm not sure what you mean by "healthy". It's statistically normal because it's rooted in biology. The whole romanticized (female) virginity is, in fact, a cultural overlay covering a couple nasty biological facts sanctioned by evolution. And evolution (and biology) doesn't give a damn about pleasure derived from sex. Evolution cares about procreation and humans have children that require ridiculous amount of time to become more-or-less self-sufficient. That time translates to resources and thus men are programmed to avoid terrible (from evolutionary standpoint) fate of wasting all these resources on children that are not theirs. A virgin is (obviously) not pregnant AND if she's a virgin, that suggests that she might not be too eager to sleep around - so it may be concluded that a virgin is less likely to cheat on her mate. If she doesn't cheat, he has exclusive access to her reproduction, meaning that every child of hers would be also his child.

It's really nasty when you break it down like that, but that's basically what's favored by evolution - pleasure from sex? That's completely secondary to reproduction. Not that it doesn't serve some function, after all sex is, generally speaking, a bonding experience and as such it promotes stable relationship; and it being fun promotes doing it more often, leading to more children... ok, it got depressing again, sorry...

 

 

(...)

And now I look forward to the internet date doctors telling me that I'm jealous, lonely, and bitter because I don't hold any value in their precious virginity or their weird fetishization of said virginity.

You're jealous, lonely and bitter because you don't hold any value in our precious virginity or our weird attempts at making it a bit less ugly and a bit more romantic than "so she never banged? Great, that gives me a better chance of being thee only one to bang her EVER, so that I don't have to worry who these fugly screaming things she pushes out are similar to".



#53
Andres Hendrix

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I'm not sure what you mean by "healthy". It's statistically normal because it's rooted in biology. The whole romanticized (female) virginity is, in fact, a cultural overlay covering a couple nasty biological facts sanctioned by evolution. And evolution (and biology) doesn't give a damn about pleasure derived from sex. Evolution cares about procreation and humans have children that require ridiculous amount of time to become more-or-less self-sufficient. That time translates to resources and thus men are programmed to avoid terrible (from evolutionary standpoint) fate of wasting all these resources on children that are not theirs. A virgin is (obviously) not pregnant AND if she's a virgin, that suggests that she might not be too eager to sleep around - so it may be concluded that a virgin is less likely to cheat on her mate. If she doesn't cheat, he has exclusive access to her reproduction, meaning that every child of hers would be also his child.

It's really nasty when you break it down like that, but that's basically what's favored by evolution - pleasure from sex? That's completely secondary to reproduction. Not that it doesn't serve some function, after all sex is, generally speaking, a bonding experience and as such it promotes stable relationship; and it being fun promotes doing it more often, leading to more children... ok, it got depressing again, sorry...

 

 

You're jealous, lonely and bitter because you don't hold any value in our precious virginity or our weird attempts at making it a bit less ugly and a bit more romantic than "so she never banged? Great, that gives me a better chance of being thee only one to bang her EVER, so that I don't have to worry who these fugly screaming things she pushes out are similar to".

Your comment is asinine. When a father kills his daughter because he "suspects" she lost her virginity before he deemed fit (marriage to an arranged groom) she is definitely not going to procreate.  Having an obsessive fixation on maintaining the so called "sexual purity" of the individual, would obviously negate procreation (so it would not be 'advantageous' for the species in that sense), and create a lot of superstitious humbug that would cause a lot of pain and humiliation. Infanticide is also "heavily rooted" in biology, but as Richard Dawkins would say, humans should believe in evolution, but fight it. "Evolution by natural selection is the explanation for why we exist. It is not something to guide our lives in our own society. If we were to be guided by the evolution principle, then we would be living in a kind of ultra-Thatcherite, Reaganite society."



#54
AtreiyaN7

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Really? This again?

*rolleyes + sigh + headdesk*

#55
thats1evildude

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It's also quite uncomfortable the lack of virgins, the only ones were Alistair, Merrill and Morrigan, all the others, well...poor Inquisitor, she/he didn't got one.

 

Morrigan wasn't a virgin! Are you mad? She's pretty clear she had other lovers.

 

As for Merrill ... that's up for debate.


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#56
andy6915

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Oh dear, I seem to have started an argument about virgins. Without even meaning to at that. This place is like a gas leak, one little unintended spark and the whole damn room explodes.



Morrigan wasn't a virgin! Are you mad? She's pretty clear she had other lovers.
 
As for Merrill ... that's up for debate.


"Lovers"? No. Morrigan has never romantically loved anyone, except the Warden and only if you pursue her romantically. What you mean are "tumble and forget" scenarios, no passion or love involved. That's in fact how the romance with Morrigan starts, just for fun. Later, when it actually becomes about love, is when she starts refusing to have sex and starts freaking out and begging you to break up with her.
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#57
Super Drone

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Straight males have as many as they always had: 2. 

 

DAO: Leliana and Morrigan

DA2: Isabela and Merrill

DAI: Cassandra and Josephine

 

Overall, males have gotten more. 

 

DAO: 3

DA2: 4

DAI: 4

 

lol. no. 

 

 

DAO: Males- 3 options, Females- 3 options (ignoring orientation)

 

DA2- Males- 4 options, Females- 5 options (please, let's hear your best "Sebastian doesn't" count argument).

 

DAI- Males- 4 options, Females- 6 options.

 

 

Romance content has slowly slanted to straight females over the series, but males never had the majority in a DA game. 



#58
Super Drone

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Or just the same dozen people over and over.  Which is actually probably closer to the truth........

 

To be fair, though, we haven't seen one of these in a while.  And at least this one didn't call Cass and Josie "men" (even if his facts were very wrong).

 

 Well, that's certainly the prevailing theory among people who are really, really hoping Bioware will completely ignore feedback of this nature...

 

...I dunno if you wanna bet money on either though.



#59
o Ventus

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Yes, of course the 7 billion people on Earth hold the exact same opinion as you do. How silly of me.

 

There is really no point in discussing this with you. Where I can read your post and can honestly say that yes, most people wouldn't give two shits who they lost their virginity to, you on the other hand seem to lack the capability to understand that not everyone thinks the same way as you do and do actually have a completely different set of opinions and values that hold just as much worth as yours.  

 

I never stated nor even implied that anyone shared my opinion, nor did I ever state that my opinion was gospel truth. It doesn't really need to be said when something is subjective when anyone can clearly see it.



#60
Eliastion

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Your comment is asinine. When a father kills his daughter because he "suspects" she lost her virginity before he deemed fit (marriage to an arranged groom) she is definitely not going to procreate.  Having an obsessive fixation on maintaining the so called "sexual purity" of the individual, would obviously negate procreation (so it would not be 'advantageous' for the species in that sense), and create a lot of superstitious humbug that would cause a lot of pain and humiliation. Infanticide is also "heavily rooted" in biology, but as Richard Dawkins would say, humans should believe in evolution, but fight it. "Evolution by natural selection is the explanation for why we exist. It is not something to guide our lives in our own society. If we were to be guided by the evolution principle, then we would be living in a kind of ultra-Thatcherite, Reaganite society."

What I'm talking about is the fact that, biologically, men perceive certain traits as attractive. These traits are mostly related to fertility and health, but there's also room for things that suggest that potential mate will be a good mother for HIS children.

On that base culture is built - and it can approach certain things in many ways. But regardless of if and how certain biological tendencies are treated, it does not erase them.

And let me tell you - the idea of defying what naturally comes to you regarding of who you find attractive because your natural tendency is argumented by someone as "unhealthy" isn't necessarily the most progressive one...



#61
Andres Hendrix

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What I'm talking about is the fact that, biologically, men perceive certain traits as attractive. These traits are mostly related to fertility and health, but there's also room for things that suggest that potential mate will be a good mother for HIS children.

On that base culture is built - and it can approach certain things in many ways. But regardless of if and how certain biological tendencies are treated, it does not erase them.

And let me tell you - the idea of defying what naturally comes to you regarding of who you find attractive because your natural tendency is argumented by someone as "unhealthy" isn't necessarily the most progressive one...

The first part is irrational; luckily modern people have evolved enough to have developed the reasoning to know better. Feelings are very much misleading. Virginity itself = good mother & health & fertility is an obvious non-sequiter. The second part is also stupid, I see the infanticide comment and the bit about the father killing his daughter either went over your head, or you are purposely ignoring them. We as human being have evolved in our intelligence to a point far beyond our hominid ancestors, so much so that we have developed things like contraceptives (to control pregnancy, and in some cases stop STIs), and hospitals (to help the sick so that they can live, and contribute to society) both of which fly in the face of natural selection. It is a very good thing that people don't follow what is "deeply rooted" in their biology, rape, infanticide, and murder are all natural to people, you twit. There is also a despicable group of people in this world who are 'attracted' to children, juding by your last sentance, I suppose you think they should follow that "natural tendency"? 



#62
Andraste_Reborn

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There at several problmes with 'men/women behave like this BECAUSE BIOLOGY!' as an argument.

 

Firstly, trying to separate culture from biology among humans is a fool's errand. We've been passing on culture to one another since before we were even ****** sapiens. A preference that seems truly universal - like the one for clear skin or symmetry - or one we share with our close relatives - like a fondness for sweet and tasty fruit - might be biological, but good luck raising a child without any culture in order to actually prove this.

 

Secondly, we have very little idea about the sexual behaviour of our ancestors in their 'natural' Palaeolithic state . We can make educated guesses and inferences, but that's about it. It's been suggested the the obsession with paternity and thus the restriction of female sexuality is a rather late addition to human cultures, and it's not as universal as some believe. (Just consider the reaction of Magellan's expedition when they got to the Phillipines, for example.)

 

Thirdly, even if an obsession with female virginity was natural, that wouldn't make it right. All kinds of things are natural, including rape and infanticide. That does not make them good or acceptable.


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#63
Ardent Blossom

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First, I get the lack of options thing. When I figured out there were only two female love interests available to male player characters compared to the 4 male romances available to my female elf I was shocked. However, gay and lesbian characters only had 2 options each as well so...yeah...Lady Lavellan (bi or straight anyway) got the pick of the litter. Bioware claims they don't tally these things up or bother trying to give equal options to everyone. The characters' orientations or if they are romancable just happens organically as part of the creative process. I don't think this is a good strategy. This time it obviously pissed off more than a few people. I personally didn't have a problem, but I can empathize with people who did.

 

Second, it's strange how someone mentioning virgins in Bioware games quickly spiraled into a conversation entirely focused on romanticized/fetishized female virginity. Alistair was a virgin. I thought it was sweet. I know other people did too. I call for more male virgin love interests! I'm sorry if ya'll think that's unnatural or unhealthy.

 

Men and woman IRL as well as gamers of both genders and all orientations may find something appealing in being their beloved's first and/or ONLY. Sure it's not what the cool kids are doing, but some people are just sentimental saps that way. 

 

Some people even find first kisses something to be sentimental about. Gee those people must be REALLY freaky! Jus' sayin'. ;)


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#64
Yaroub

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Quantity doesn't matter, i would be content with even one romance proven that it would exquisite, so who got more females or males doesn't really matter given that they both have a one specific hell of a romance.

 

Cassandra was the one in DA:I

 

Morrigan :wub: ...ahhh.. Morrigan, she's something that one 

 

The ones in DA:2 were all crap, stupid, and poorly written for me( though i only did Isabella and Merril, don't know about Fenris and Anders, but i don't imagine it was that great)



#65
Eliastion

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The first part is irrational; luckily modern people have evolved enough to have developed the reasoning to know better. Feelings are very much misleading. Virginity itself = good mother & health & fertility is an obvious non-sequiter. The second part is also stupid, I see the infanticide comment and the bit about the father killing his daughter either went over your head, or you are purposely ignoring them. We as human being have evolved in our intelligence to a point far beyond our hominid ancestors, so much so that we have developed things like contraceptives (to control pregnancy, and in some cases stop STIs), and hospitals (to help the sick so that they can live, and contribute to society) both of which fly in the face of natural selection. It is a very good thing that people don't follow what is "deeply rooted" in their biology, rape, infanticide, and murder are all natural to people, you twit. There is also a despicable group of people in this world who are 'attracted' to children, juding by your last sentance, I suppose you think they should follow that "natural tendency"? 

Ok, sorry, but did you actually read what I wrote? I ignore the "father killing daughter" argument because it has nothing to do with the topic of virgins being, for evolutionary reasons, more attractive/desirable. And your virginity=health=etc either proves your... ill will or problems with understanding what you read. The fact that I mentioned a couple things that are biologically preferable in potential mate doesn't mean that they all tie in to the virginity. Clear skin and facial symmetry, for example, imply health and good genetic material - so these things are perceived as attractive. Visible defects of the skin, or aforementioned symmetry of face or body, suggest that there's something wrong and the person probably isn't a good material for procreation - so these traits are unattractive.

As for your idea that we've outgrown biology. We didn't. Obviously, we have more tools and better reasoning ability. So what? People don't go and consciously decide that they'll be attracted to someone. They just either find someone, or some trait of theirs, attractive, or don't. It doesn't matter that sex in our society isn't really about procreation most of the time - our perceptions of physical attractiveness are still guided mostly by the same mechanism that seeks optimal mate to have children with.

Also, you completely mix up two things. One is being attracted to something and acknowledging what you are attracted to. The other is acting on this - in a way that harms somebody. Contrary to what you might've conceived in your mind, I'm not supporting the idea that, say, men should rape virgins since they find virginity to be desirable in a woman. But that doesn't mean they should go "cure" themselves from finding it desirable. Rape, as you perhaps are aware, harms someone. Unlike finding something attractive.

And since you so generously delivered your opinion of what I think about "despicable people who are attracted to children", let me correct you a little bit. These people, as you would understand if you gave it a thought, have a serious problem in that it's impossible for them to naturally satisfy their sexual needs in a way that doesn't hurt anybody - the effects of "consensual" intercourse with children are well documented and it's not pretty. Despite that, though, and contrary to what your self-righteousness and (quite natural, don't misunderstand) feeling of disgust tells you... these people are not despicable. They're sick. They have a problem. But as long as they don't harm anyone because of that, they're much less despicable than self-righteous pricks like you. Psychological disorder that makes them feel attracted to children doesn't automatically make them rapists.

 

(...)

Thirdly, even if an obsession with female virginity was natural, that wouldn't make it right. All kinds of things are natural, including rape and infanticide. That does not make them good or acceptable.

Rape and infanticide - unlike finding a virgin more desirable than non-virgin - is a pretty harmful thing. Since, you know, being attracted (or not) to something generally doesn't inflict harm. It's the way you act upon your attraction that makes all the difference.

 

 

All that said, I'll refrain from further comments. I believe I made my point clear, there's also a nice comment on the matter of Virginity from Ardent Blossom. I guess that would be enough. And this is not really the place to argue about that anymore. But, if any of you guys feels the need to commen on why I'm wrong and finding virginity desirable is comparable to being an active pedophile - by all means, write about it. Just please excuse my lack of further replies.



#66
Andraste_Reborn

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Fair enough. This is off-topic anyway, so this will be my last remark on the subject, too.

 

Rape and infanticide - unlike finding a virgin more desirable than non-virgin - is a pretty harmful thing.

 

The idea that female virgins are more desirable than female non-virgins has done measurable harm in the world, though, by promoting messed up ideas about women's sexuality. Even today, there are kids in sex ed being taught that women who have multiple partners are like used up sticky-tape or candy someone else has sucked on.


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#67
daveliam

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What I find interesting is that there are people in this thread (and other threads like it) that are quick to complain that Bioware shouldn't 'have to use a checklist' to create LI's and that they should 'be free to write whatever stories they want'.  But then these same people complain that there are more romance options for straight female Inquisitors, despite the 'extra' characters being a retuning fan favorite and, arguably, the most plot relevant romance.  It just seems like conflicting messages. 


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#68
lynroy

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there was already a thread, but it was on the feedback and suggestions section which is pretty much dead, along with the rest of sections excluding this and the Off Topic

They were being sarcastic.


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#69
YourFunnyUncle

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What I find interesting is that there are people in this thread (and other threads like it) that are quick to complain that Bioware shouldn't 'have to use a checklist' to create LI's and that they should 'be free to write whatever stories they want'.  But then these same people complain that there are more romance options for straight female Inquisitors, despite the 'extra' characters being a retuning fan favorite and, arguably, the most plot relevant romance.  It just seems like conflicting messages. 

Are they the same people, or do BioWare have such a diversity of opinion in their fandom that whatever they do, someone will complain? ;)


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#70
katamuro

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The only complain about romances I have is that there is no attractive elf female for my inquisitor. I feel like they are not using their elf resources correctly, in DA2 you also had an elf romance but they had to make her a naive bloodmage. In DAI they had to make her rather un-elf like. In fact if Sera wasn't an elf it really would't have mattered. I get it that they like to make elves different from their traditional ways but still...



#71
holdenagincourt

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I think the spread of romance options can feel "lacking" if you aren't interested in most (or even any) of the characters as romantic partners for your Inquisitor. It isn't just a question of parity, although that does come into play because making the majority of the romances exclusive to specific race/gender combinations sacrificed inclusion on the ostensible altar of plausibility/character development. I continue to find that choice troubling because it reifies in DA:I a normative, historically specific system of sexuality for no logically coherent reason, one that I find suffocatingly retrogressive compared to DA2. In retrospect I feel that the unintended consequences of limited resources in that game were actually quite revolutionary.

 

I wish the BSN could discuss these questions without exploding into gotcha wars over who is more entitled, who is more bigoted, who is more open-minded, who is more virtuous. Then again, that's been too much to ask for since I started coming here.


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#72
Lee80

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I really do think making everyone bisexual works better from a game perspective.  Then you don't have to deal with situations like Cullen being straight-and he's the best male option in game to me, and many others I'm sure.  Iron Bull is my main romance option by default as Dorian's a power botto...erm I mean yeah I like not having to settle for less options just so people can feel the game is more realistic.  


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#73
The Oracle

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No-one's ever going to be happy on this. Really, I'm fine with what they have at the moment. I wonder if Bioware ever kick themselves for making npc relationships such an integral part of their games. It must be a real headache given that, no matter what they do, the vast majority will always find something to nit pick and moan about. 



#74
nightscrawl

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"Lovers"? No. Morrigan has never romantically loved anyone, except the Warden and only if you pursue her romantically. What you mean are "tumble and forget" scenarios, no passion or love involved. That's in fact how the romance with Morrigan starts, just for fun. Later, when it actually becomes about love, is when she starts refusing to have sex and starts freaking out and begging you to break up with her.


I believe that thats1evildude was trying to be tactful in his word choice...


... as Dorian's a power botto...erm...


*roll eyes*.

#75
Lee80

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*roll eyes*.

Just for clarity sake do you dislike my sense of humor, or do you protest the truth of the situation?