The same scene where Cassandra says "Deal. With It." also happens with the Templars.
Yeah, but the Templars are complaining how some of the mages with the Inquisition are guilty of terrible crimes.
The mages are complaining how their quarters are too small, the Templars are too close, they can't group however they please and other petty stuff.
I really disliked Fiona in Asunder. Instead of supporting Wynne and the Devine to slowly to improve the world of the Mages, she lead the Mages into war - a war they could not win. I understand her impatience, but many mages were not ready to make the transition. IMO she should have supported Wynne and bought time to better prepare the Mages for life outside the circle. The vote was far from a resounding majority. But Fiona's arrogance shone through and she did not wait. As a result she caused many, many Mages more heartache and suffering than the Templars.
She claimed she had no choice but to kneel down to Tevinter? I think she indeed had a choice...had she shown some patience she could have approached the left or right hand of the Devine for guidance. She could have joined the Inquisition and brought change - real change and real purpose to her peeps. Once again her arrogance - her "I know best" attitude caused immense suffering. What an ass she turned out to be. She is one of the most pitiful characters in all the DA series so far -I put her right in there with Anders and Logain - misguided narcissists all....
By the time of Asunder, the right of mages to assemble, debate, and vote in congregation had been dissolved and the Templars did nothing but crack down on the mages. And the Templars led everyone to a war when they violated the last mage conclave sanctioned by the Divine and turned it into a massacre and shoned their true colors. Things were not getting better over time. They got worst and stayed worst. Can you really blame Fiona for taking over the first conclave meeting that had been permitted ever since its disbandment? Half of the mages voted for independence. That was not an inconsiderable number. And I call bs that she caused mages more suffering than the Templars.
And she DID contact the Inquisition, but then fraking Alexius used fraking time travel magic (really, Bioware?) to prevent that from happening. Stupid writing, really. TIME TRAVEL, just like that?
I know, I agree, they seem to justify that there isn't any paradox just because is magic and not a machine, that's lazy and stupidAlexius used fraking time travel magic (really, Bioware?) to prevent that from happening. Stupid writing, really. TIME TRAVEL, just like that?
HOLD UP
You, my friend, are about to plunge into the depths of the PLOT HOLE, by fortune of a POORLY EXPLAINED PLOT DEVICE.
How is the Inquisitor able to remember the meeting with Fiona if, by virtue of time-travel, the meeting never happened? If Alexius didn't want the Inquisition coming to Redcliffe, why did he allow them into the town and castle? In general, what actually happened during In Hushed Whispers?
Trying to explain anything about the characters involved based off of the events within the quest, specifically relating to the time-travel elements, will simply cause the PLOT HOLE to expand wider and wider until it collapses into a PLOT SINGULARITY.
BEWARE
Bioware dropped the ball on this.
Fiona managed to get Redcliffe as a refugee camp by permission of the Ferelden Crown without military aid beyond Redcliffe's immediate soldiers by Arl Teagan. Redcliffe, the best castle in Ferelden. And then somehow, fraking Alexius and his Venatori evict the Arl and his soldiers as if they were unruly tenants, and get Fiona to go along with it by tricking her into thinking there's a upcoming Templar attack and Recliffe cannot withstand it. There should not be any compelling reason for Fiona to give up the protection of Redcliffe in exchange for a Tevinter Magister's aid, even if he would've honored his end of the bargain.
Bioware dropped the ball on this.
.
On this ? They dropped the ball on virtually the whole campaign, we could make a thread easily twice bigger than this one just to point out all their writing sins.
Well, there were a few ball drops across the course of the campaign, but most are excusable in my book. However, In Hushed Whispers really takes the cake. It's like, a Times Square durinng New Year's Eve level of ball-droppage.
Yeah, but the Templars are complaining how some of the mages with the Inquisition are guilty of terrible crimes.
The mages are complaining how their quarters are too small, the Templars are too close, they can't group however they please and other petty stuff.
Given that Cassandra was the one who dismissed his objections, I assumed it was likely that he was being histrionic.
Given that Cassandra was the one who dismissed his objections, I assumed it was likely that he was being histrionic.
Because their are certainly no apostates or criminals among the Inquisition
Both factions had been conducting themselves impeccably, to be sure. In any case, they aren't brought into the Inquisition to make charges or be catered to.
Because their are certainly no apostates or criminals among the Inquisition
I would trust Cassandra not to knowingly employ any mass murdering blood mages in the ranks of the faithful. Anything less (such as just being an apostate) is not really a "heinous crime" worth doing anything about.
I will need to summarize this without quoting. I will try to be as clear as possible. Look for your name to see my reply to you. Each new paragraph will be the next response to the next issue raised.
@The Oracle Maybe her younger charges were threatened, but this doesn't stop her from opposing Alexius in the bad future. When she finds out about Alexius' true plans she fights him, and ends up in a cell modeling the latest in red lyrium fashion. I think she would have fought against Alexius even if he threatened the young mages, because the alternative would have been that the young mages become slaves to the Venatori or die against the Inquisition anyway. I agree that she wouldn't fight the Inquisition willingly. For me, the blood magic influence theory is based on how "out of it" she seems during the battle in Haven. She just seems like a mindless drone, attacking for no reason and without any sort of strategy. This could easily be bad design on BioWare's part however. But the fact she doesn't shout anything really makes it seem to me like she was being controlled. Alexius shouted things in his fight, too much in fact, but Fiona was silent.
@Boost32 You mean the irrefutable evidence that she was being controlled by blood magic? I don't think anyone ever claimed there was irrefutable evidence for it. Just that it seems likely that she was being controlled during the fight in Haven.
Yes, Krem was not very descriptive. But what other kind of ritual could it have been? I suppose it could have been a red lyrium ritual, but then wouldn't Krem have recognized that? Those usually have big shards of red lyrium hanging above the subject with some metallic apparatuses and such.
Because that's all a bloodmage in Origins needs to cast Blood Control where the enemy becomes an ally. And Erimond wasn't taking control of the Wardens. That process involved more than just the simple step of taking over someone's mind. Yes, an entire life was sacrificed, but it was to accomplish three things. 1. Summon a demon. 2. Allow the Warden mage to bind the demon to him or her (which was not blood magic, but it was still magic). 3. Allow the Nightmare to take control of that Warden mage. So there was much more involved here, which is why it required an entire life. Taking over someone's mind only requires the blood of the blood mage, if that. There may be more direct means of manipulating the victim, more drawn out means that require time and close contact. Like how Uldred can be seen breaking a mage so he becomes an abomination.
@Dean_the_Young Yes of course Alexius can involve her people in that despite Fiona's protests, but the point is that Fiona will not stand for it. She didn't draw any lines in the sand before that, and she did not cross the line she drew. In the bad future she fights back against Alexius. It follows that she would do the same in the true timeline as well. Instead we see her fight against the Inquisition in Haven. Which means there could be something else at work there. Something compelling her to contradict her rebellious nature and instead cooperate in leading her people to slaughter against those she had been trying so desperately to avoid.
You're right. That isn't an argument that she would go along with a stupid plan. It is a counter-argument to yours that she had a stupid plan involving Arl Teagan being forced out of his own lands. My point is that Fiona did not come up with that plan. As for going along with it, she had no choice. She needed to stay on Alexius' good side to secure a place for the rebel mages, and turning on Alexius at that point would do nothing because Arl Teagan had already been slighted and was off to warn the crown, thus costing Fiona her only ally. At that point, it was Vint or nuthin'. This is completely different from a plan to have her mages attack Haven when it's full of templars, some mages, and the rest of the Inquisition troops. Fiona's desire was to avoid confrontations that were less difficult than that one. If she didn't want to fight templars then, she would not want to fight them and the Inquisition later. She made a deal; service to Tevinter for a decade in exchange for Tevinter taking them in so they would not have to fight the templars. If Alexius were to go back on that, or if he were ousted by Calpernia who would then order the exact opposite, then Fiona would have fought back just as she did in the bad future. The reason she wasn't in control over Alexius in Redcliffe is because she needed to get her people to safety. But if that promise is broken and unattainable, then there is nothing compelling her to obey Alexius or anyone else. Unless... blood magic.
Well now you're changing the criteria. First you wrote that Haven was easily overrun. It wasn't. Now you're changing it to Haven was overrun in short order, or quickly. My point is that the only reason it was overrun at all is because of a corrupted high dragon. That is hardly an example of little effort. Had it not been for that, the Venatori and the mages would not have stood a chance, and this situation is the only one Fiona would have known about. She would have seen an army of cultists looking to force her people into open conflict on unknown terrain against superior forces in their fortified camp. She never would have went along with that. The whole reason she signed with Tevinter was to avoid conflict. From where she was sitting, their forces had no chance of winning. Now you might say that the dragon convinced her the victory was possible. Well it might have, except for the fact that it was tainted. Upon seeing that it was a darkspawn she would have freaked and refused any alliance with them. So no matter how you slice it, Fiona would not have gone into open conflict willingly.
The templar alliance is secured at Theirinfall, not at Haven. I wrote that if such an alliance were a reason for a pre-emptive strike, then it would have been carried out before the forces returning from Theirinfall could reunite with the forces at Haven.
Yes, there is reason. Traveling from Haven to Redcliffe and beginning In Hushed Whispers requires much less time than traveling from Haven, past Redcliffe, and further east to Therinfall. The Ferelden crown shows up at Redcliffe roughly the same time as the Herald will during In Hushed Whispers. Which means, if the Herald decides to go after the templars in Champions of the Just, then as he passes Redcliffe, the Ferelden crown is passing them to enter Redcliffe to expel the rebel mages. So yes, the rebel mages and Alexius' men would have a massive head start on the Inquisition, which would still need to reach Theirinfall, recruit the templars, and then march back to Haven. Also, the rebel mages can't march from Redcliffe to Haven because they first have to join up with the main Venatori force being led by Calpernia.
It isn't about what the templars would address first. It's about what Fiona thinks they would do first, or what she would be told by Alexius. So the templars seal the breach first in exchange for what? The Inquisition could just dump them right afterward. It would make more sense for the Inquisition to help the templars kill the mages first if that was their plan all along like you say Alexius might have told Fiona. The templars ally with the Inquisition in exchange for help in killing the mages to prove loyalty, then they help seal the breach as repayment. That makes more sense than the templars agreeing to seal the breach first when the Inquisition has, from Fiona's perspective, done nothing for the templar order. I mean, what would Fiona think the Inquisition offered the templars to get them to cooperate?
Fiona's lack of information is not relevant to her eventual realization that she and her people are being forced to fight very existent anti-magic forces she made a deal to avoid at all costs. Upon that realization, she turns against Alexius. She already proved this in Redcliffe Castle when Alexius' true motives are revealed. And I did not ignore her past mistakes, I explained them. She went along with Alexius' plan because she had no choice. With the deal of safety in Tevinter broken, she had no reason to remain loyal.
It doesn't matter what their reasons are. Mages are weak against templars. The rebel mages cannot defeat an army of templars along with Inquisition forces. And the Inquisition would have already established the alliance with the templars by then anyway. Also, the Inquisition was in no position to block the mages' escape to Tevinter. Haven is in the south, and the path to Orlais and beyond is to the north. The rebel mages would have been north of Haven. Even if you think they were still in Redcliffe, the fact that the road from Redcliffe to the border was not being blocked would be a clear indication to Fiona that the Inquisition did not plan to attack them.
Fiona had no say in Teagan's expulsion. There was nothing she could do about that. Tevinter had the means to extract the mages. The plan was to simply have everyone travel north from Redcliffe to Tevinter.
I agree that Fiona was an incompetent revolutionary. She only knew how to lead her mages to freedom, she didn't know how to survive in it. But none of that negates the fact that she would not allow her people to be used for war against the templars. She made the deal with Tevinter specifically to avoid war with the templars.
@Andromelek 1. No, because the rebel mages would have left Redcliffe to head north. Then at some point they were intercepted by Calpernia and the main Venatori force. Regardless of how that interaction went, Fiona would see that Alexius was not in charge. Plus, my point is that Fiona would not have gone to battle against the Inquisition in the first place.
2. But Fiona's "boss" was Alexius, not Calpernia. And if Fiona were to see Corypheus or the Red Lyrium Dragon, then she would realize they were darkspawn and turn against them immediately.
@MisterJB Please understand, we aren't saying this was the case with Fiona all along. We're just saying it was the case for the battle in Haven. She had no motive to fight in Haven, yet she did. And of course this would be different in her case compared to others. She made a point of not wanting her people to fight against templars. Yet she fights against the Inquisition in Haven. Something is amiss there.
@Carmen_Willow I thought of this too. I once speculated that this is why the templars wear heavy armor, to defend against physical attacks, since magical attacks have little to no effect. So ultimately, I don't think it would do them any good. Either they would be too weak to beat them physically, or they would be outclassed regarding armor and weapons. However, Fiona did have non-mage people as well. These people did indeed carry weapons, as they were warriors and rogues. These people were just mage supporters. I'm sure many were sell-swords as well.
@Boost32 I already addressed Dorian's comment. What he observed among the lower ranks is not indicative of what happened at the top with Fiona. Dorian didn't see blood magic get used. That doesn't mean it wasn't used somewhere out of his sight.
First and foremost, let us outline the situation after "Champions of the Just".
Fiona was manipulated by infiltrators into selling her charges into slavery when she had refuge and allies in Ferelden's throne and the Templars were alone. Now, Ferelden has exiled the mages and the Templars have strong allies. Alexius is literally her last hope. The odds of her standing up to him are slim.
Then, let us remember how the main force of the Templars was not in Haven. Only a few veterans were sent to close the Breach. Hence, it makes perfect sense to destroy the Inquisition before they can join their forces.
Even if we accept that she would have wanted nothing to do with Alexius if she noticed the dragon was Tainted in the middle of the battle, she is still in the middle of a battle with her people currently enganging the Inquisition. She can't safely withdraw at that point.
Besides, it's not inconceivable Fiona would willingly side with Alexius. His stance is clearly pro-mage.
We don't know the circunstances that lead to her imprisionment in the bad future. Maybe she only turned against them when she realized their pro-mage agenda would entail growing the Breach.
I trust Dorian's words, not baseless speculation that people fabricated to defend Fiona.
And it can be any kind of magic. The ritual involved only Venatori, no rebel mage was there.
I trust Dorian's words also. But Dorian was not in Fiona's company. He cannot confirm that Fiona was not being influenced by blood magic, so his testimony has nothing to do with this issue.
And the Venatori practice blood magic. So yeah, it doesn't matter that no rebel mage was there.
He knows what happened, if he didn't why he would tell us what happened?I trust Dorian's words also. But Dorian was not in Fiona's company. He cannot confirm that Fiona was not being influenced by blood magic, so his testimony has nothing to do with this issue.
And the Venatori practice blood magic. So yeah, it doesn't matter that no rebel mage was there.
I don't care about Fiona she is just one of the many stupid mages,sadly in Thedas there is a disease who affect only mages and turn them to be more stupid than average people.
First and foremost, let us outline the situation after "Champions of the Just".
Fiona was manipulated by infiltrators into selling her charges into slavery when she had refuge and allies in Ferelden's throne and the Templars were alone. Now, Ferelden has exiled the mages and the Templars have strong allies. Alexius is literally her last hope. The odds of her standing up to him are slim.
Then, let us remember how the main force of the Templars was not in Haven. Only a few veterans were sent to close the Breach. Hence, it makes perfect sense to destroy the Inquisition before they can join their forces.
Even if we accept that she would have wanted nothing to do with Alexius if she noticed the dragon was Tainted in the middle of the battle, she is still in the middle of a battle with her people currently enganging the Inquisition. She can't safely withdraw at that point.
Alexius is her last hope in getting her people to safety in Tevinter. If that deal falls through, then Fiona has no hope at all, and thus no reason to obey Alexius. It makes no sense to avoid fighting templars while they are alone and the mages have Ferelden support, but then attack these templars after they gain powerful allies and the mages lose theirs. This rationale is completely backwards, and this is why some here believe Fiona was being mind-controlled during the events of Haven. If she didn't want to fight templars before, she would not have wanted to after.
No, the full templar army was in Haven for the attack. The vets were sent soon after Theirinfall's business was complete. The scene with Cole appearing on top of the chore table confirms that. This was before the breach was closed. So if Fiona was going support any attack, it should have come before the breach was closed and before the main templar forces arrived.
Fiona could have surrendered, or ordered her people to stand down. Or she could have ordered them to turn on the Venatori. Anything is better than continuing to help a force that not only took advantage of your people and put their lives in jeopardy, but also serves the darkspawn.
He knows what happened, if he didn't why he would tell us what happened?
Yet there were no blood in the ritual and no rebel mage to be brainwashed.
He knows what happened within the small group that he infiltrated, and he told us what happened within the main force. He doesn't know what happened between Alexius, Fiona, or Calpernia. He didn't even know what happened to Alexius and Felix until he received a letter about it later.
Blood magic doesn't always have to be used to brainwash. Many times blood magic is used to summon demons. It can also be used to power various other spells. We don't know if there was blood used in the ritual or not. Krem was not descriptive enough.
The main force of the templars wasnt at Haven. The Order have thousands of Knights, there are no way for them to be all at Haven.
The order that was at Theirinfall did not number in the thousands. That is the force I am referring to. As for all the other templars in the world, they are all located in their own various posts. Those other templars were not at Haven, and never intended to go there. The templar forces the Inquisition gathered to seal the breach were all from Theirinfall.
Its the only in game proof of what happened, there is no mention of any kind of mind control, you are just trying to excuse Fiona. She attacked the Inquisition without any kind of mind control.He knows what happened within the small group that he infiltrated, and he told us what happened within the main force. He doesn't know what happened between Alexius, Fiona, or Calpernia. He didn't even know what happened to Alexius and Felix until he received a letter about it later.
Blood magic doesn't always have to be used to brainwash. Many times blood magic is used to summon demons. It can also be used to power various other spells. We don't know if there was blood used in the ritual or not. Krem was not descriptive enough.
The order that was at Theirinfall did not number in the thousands. That is the force I am referring to. As for all the other templars in the world, they are all located in their own various posts. Those other templars were not at Haven, and never intended to go there. The templar forces the Inquisition gathered to seal the breach were all from Theirinfall.
Besides, it's not inconceivable Fiona would willingly side with Alexius. His stance is clearly pro-mage.
We don't know the circunstances that lead to her imprisionment in the bad future. Maybe she only turned against them when she realized their pro-mage agenda would entail growing the Breach.
Don't know about that. Alexius seemed very pro-Tevinter to me. Then he turned to pro-Elder One. But who knows how he presented himself to Fiona. So yeah, maybe he came off as pro-mage to her and she willingly agreed. I don't contest the fact that Fiona was foolish. I'm just saying she would not have willingly side with him knowing what he truly was. The mages path shows this.
As for the bad future, we saw her turn against Alexius in the castle hall. Logically, after the Herald and Dorian disappeared Ferelden's monarch(s) would have entered the hall and kicked Alexius out. Fiona would then have to choose to go with Alexius knowing what he was really all about, or side with the Inquisition and hope they would cover for her with the monarch(s). Based on her fate in the cell, I think it's clear to see that she went with the Inquisition.
So I think she would have made the same choice in the templar path upon discovering Alexius' true intentions.
Its the only in game proof of what happened, there is no mention of any kind of mind control, you are just trying to excuse Fiona. She attacked the Inquisition without any kind of mind control.
There is a leap of your logic. Krem doesn't mention any kind of blood, but since its a magic ritual it must be blood magic!
It's in-game proof of what happened in the lower ranks. I don't disagree with you on that. I'm just pointing out that Dorian did not observe the events that transpired between Alexius, Felix, Fiona, Calpernia, and possibly Corypheus.
Maybe the ritual was to create ice cubes for their beverages. I don't know. But the question remains, what was so important that they stayed behind in the castle to conduct secret rituals?
I don't care about Fiona. If she was really that stupid to throw her life away on templar blades, so be it. I'm just saying that this would contradict her earlier sentiments of AVOIDING templar blades and getting her people to safety in Tevinter.
You can't prove she wasn't mind-controlled. It is a possibility. My side never claimed it is a definite fact that she was being mind-controlled, just that certain things in the game indicate that she could have been during the events of In Your Heart Shall Burn.
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