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[Dai Grepher]

She would turn against him and then what? They are the only ones willing to help them. Of course she is not going to turn against him

 

Exactly what evidence do you have to claim any more Templars arrived in that space of time? There is absolutely nothing that indicates this.

There is an enormous difference between 24 travelling and 24000 or more. It's not jut half a day more.

Never mind how just one portion of the Venatori, complemented by a few hundred mages plus one dragon could defeat the entirety of, at least, two chapters of the Templar Order (Orlais and Ferelden). And did most of them die or were there thousands of Templars being lead by Chancelor Roderick?
 

Ok, she drops her staff and the Herald runs her through because it's a battle and she is an enemy.

And how is she going to command her people when they are fighting the Inquisition? How are they going to flee south without the Inquisition or the Venatori attacking their back? How are they going to coordinate a retreat when they are split up amidst the Venatori forces?

 

But they aren't willing to help them. That's my point. They are only trying to use them, and they screwed everything up for the mages by that point. Fiona would want to punish them for how they led her and her people astray and ruined their chances of finding a peaceful existence. So she would turn on them, make them pay, and then what? A few options. 1. Run and hide. Hedge mage style. 2. Throw yourself on the mercy of the Inquisition since they were interested in recruiting the mages. 3. Surrender to the Circles, as many mages wanted to do already.

 

There is an unspecified amount of time that passes between the return from Therinfal and the journey into the Valley of Sacred Ashes to close the breach. Cullen also points out that you have time to prepare. And all that was said about the vets arrival was that they came ahead of the others. Meaning, they got there early. This does not mean that the rest don't make it to Haven shortly after.

 

Nothing indicates that there were as many as 24,000 or even 240. We're talking the number of templars who went to Therinfal - the ones who were corrupted red - the ones who survived the battle at Therinfal.

 

A few hundred mages? Where did you get this number? Fiona states there are hundreds of mages, many of them children. So take this number - the children - those who can't fight - those who fled or were killed as Dorian said - those who were left out of the battle by Calpernia. Or you could take the warrior to mage ratio during the Haven attack. I don't know what you're arguing for here. What does the dragon have to do with anything?

 

Runs her through with what? The murder knife is in the Hero of Ferelden's possession... or Leliana's. The Herald would not be able to one shot Fiona. Nor would the Herald want to if Fiona was surrendering.

 

The command would have been issued before the attack on Haven, not in the middle of it. They would flee while the Venatori and the Inquisition fight each other. You know, the concept of desertion has been around a long time. It can and does work. Fiona could have told her mages to desert first chance they got and then meet up later at a secret location they all know about. Simple.

[Sifr]

So you're basically admitting here that you have no actual rebuttal, and trying to distract from that by claiming some superiority due to a tangent?

 

No, I'm admitting that this Fiona hate thread was a chore to slog through back in January, May and it still is now... there's only so many times you can sit through the same old circular logic and claims of genocide before you just can't be bothered anymore.

 

This thread kinda reminds me of a certain US "news" group owned by a certain Australian magnate. Why bother having the pretence of a reasonable discussion or debate between two points of view, based on whatever evidence is at hand and try to form an opinion, when you can instead ignore all other views but your own, make broad sweeping statements and blame a convenient scapegoat for everything?

 

I mean, those who hate Fiona aren't going to stop because anyone makes a compelling argument in her defence, so what's the point?

 

(Or are we going to start critiquing my overuse of question marks again?)

 

[Dai Grepher]

... I imagine even Fiona is smart enough to recognize that closing the big hole in the sky that spits out demons before it consumes the entire world is a higher priority than killing the mages.

 

The breach was stable. It was no longer sending out demons.

 

It's also amusing how you claim that Fiona would think that the templars would consider the breach so dire as to close it immediately when Fiona herself does not consider the breach dire enough to close immediately with the mages.

[Dean_the_Young]

No, I'm admitting that this Fiona hate thread was a chore to slog through back in January, May and it still is now... there's only so many times you can sit through the same old circular logic and claims of genocide before you just can't be bothered anymore.

 

This thread kinda reminds me of a certain US "news" group owned by a certain Australian magnate. Why bother having the pretence of a reasonable discussion or debate between two points of view, based on whatever evidence is at hand and try to form an opinion, when you can instead ignore all other views but your own, make broad sweeping statements and blame a convenient scapegoat for everything?

 

 

This is intentionally irony, right?

 

Well, aside from the part about you being Australian.

[Dai Grepher]

Maybe Krem didn't see the blood because there was no blood.

 

No, there would have been plenty of blood after the Chargers killed all but the one Venatori they captured. But at that point they would not be able to tell if there was blood on the floor before the fight or not.
 

[Sifr]

This is intentionally irony, right?

 

Well, aside from the part about you being Australian.

 

Actually it wasn't, but it's amusing to notice it... and even so, it's still an accurate assessment of this thread.

 

Aside from the part where I'm not an Aussie.

[thesuperdarkone2]

The breach was stable. It was no longer sending out demons.

It's also amusing how you claim that Fiona would think that the templars would consider the breach so dire as to close it immediately when Fiona herself does not consider the breach dire enough to close immediately with the mages.

How would Fiona close the breach without the mark? Funny how without time Magic the mages were willing to help the Inquisition first

[Dai Grepher]

Envy can impersonate anyone, there is no "lack of ego".

He was their leader he can make any excuse he wants.

Yes it is, she was the leader, she made the decision, she let herself be manipularem and cornered by the Venatori.

Seriously, you dont know what you are talking about. You quoted me when I was discussing the magic ritual in the Chargers war table, there was no way to hide the bodies because the Chargers interrupted the ritual while the Venatori were doing it. Please read the conversation again.


No, where did you get they dont? The Templar Order broke away from the Chantry, they heavily outnumbered the mages (who numbers in the hundreds), only a few dissents didnt join the Order.

No he didnt, he summoned all the templars who broke away from the Chantry, all of them were gathering in Therinfal.

Yes, all of her choices were wrong. Its a better explanation then blood magic, that has no in game evidence of its existence.

Its called blood magic because it use blood, there is no bloodless blood magic.

I dont deal with maybe, you are just trying to find a excuse to prove something that has no evidence.

 

I actually do believe that the Fiona in Val Royeaux was the Envy Demon. That's why the Fiona in the tavern thought it seemed strange. She was probably copied by the Envy Demon like how the Herald can almost be.

 

I understand your argument. I agree that there wouldn't have been any bodies present at the ritual. But not all blood magic requires a sacrifice of a life, thus leaving a corpse.

 

Um... from the fact that not that many showed up at Therinfal. Yeah, there could be thousands in the Templar Order, but only a few hundred were at Therinfall, if that.

 

Prove that all of them were gathering at Therinfal. Lucius putting out the call does not mean the call was answered.

 

Her choice to ally with Ferelden was pretty on the ball.

 

What I mean is that not all blood magic spells shoot blood through the air to the target, thus getting blood splatter all over. Some blood magic spells simply manipulate the target's blood inside of them. Like the pride demon manipulating the mages in Origins.

 

No, you are dismissing a possibility using unsound reasoning. You say there was no blood. But that is a baseless assumption. Krem may have simply neglected to mention that in the report. The blood from the blood magic may have been covered up by the fresh blood that the Charges spilled when they interrupted the ritual. Or the ritual may have only been where the blood mages used their own blood, and none was splattered anywhere.

 

Back to my original point. The fact that it is a ritual suggests that it has something to do with blood magic. What other rituals are there?

 

Well, the summoning sciences maybe. Okay. That's possible. A red lyrium ritual. Also possible. A blood magic ritual. Also possible. That the servants of the castle had confused recollections of what happened hints at blood magic.

 

Fiona not wanting her mages to be involved in a battle against the templars, and then suddenly wanting her mages to be involved in a battle against the templars and the Inquisition is a strange occurrence. Could it be because Fiona is an idiot? Sure. Could it be because Fiona was mind controlled before the battle so that she would comply? Sure. Which is more likely to be the case?

 

Based on her action in the castle hall, she will turn on Alexius if the true plan is revealed. So yes, it is more likely that Fiona discovered the real plan and then turned on the Venatori in the templar path, which then decided to mind-control her so she would attack the Herald at Haven.

[Dean_the_Young]

Actually it wasn't, but it's amusing to notice it... and even so, it's still an accurate assessment of this thread.

 

In so much that you accurately described your conduct more than others... sure. A bit of a self-roasting, but hey.

 

Evidence on hand? Headcanon's been trumping facts available for the 'Fiona was blood magiced' position for some time. Broad statements? 'Fiona's character wouldn't stand for X' stance is big on wide-claims of what she wouldn't tolerate, but cites precious few instances of her doing and ignores plenty of examples of her not. Convenient scape goat? The mages couldn't know, it's all dem evil Tevinter's fault!
 

I'm all for tearing into people's arguments- it really doesn't offend me, and I expect the same from others- but you didn't even do that. When your argument was challenged you strawmaned, then ad-homined, and then tried to end the argument with a hypocritical barrage. A pretense of a reasonable discussion is right- but not from the direction you intended. 'Reasonable' doesn't mean 'nice.'

 

I'm frankly more bemused than offended- but do try to drop the false pretense of a moral high ground as you try to leave with the last word.

 

(I'm betting you'll have at least one more response, just to get the last word- though having pointed that out, perhaps you'll try to disprove me by not? Amusing either way.)

 

 

 

Aside from the part where I'm not an Aussie.

 

 

 

Or are you.

 

[/no one on the internet knows for sure]

[Dai Grepher]

The argument of 'Fiona is a victim of blood magic' not only ignores that there is a standing, often-raised basis for her decisions (Alexius's time travel shenanigans, her own history of decisions), but it also ignores how the Dragon Age writers have depicted Blood Magic in every other case... which is to say, how absent the suggestion of blood magic is. This isn't just a matter of 'Fiona's opponents don't like her'- no one in the story suggests Fiona is under blood magic compulsion.

But you can't see what you don't see. Meaning, unless a case of blood magic is shown in the game, they you don't know that it happened. For example. I would never know that Halward Pavus considered using blood magic unless Dorian told me.

 

It's the same case with Fiona. You can't know for sure that she was controlled by blood magic during the attack on Haven unless the game shows you that she was. Again, none of us are saying that she was controlled by blood magic the whole game. We aren't even saying she was controlled by blood magic in Haven as a matter of fact. We are only saying that she MIGHT have been controlled by blood magic in Haven because her actions in the attack on Haven contradict her previously established motives of keeping her people out of battle.

 

The point we are making here is this. Yes, Fiona was a moron. We all know this. But we should also consider the possibility that Fiona was being mind-controlled during the attack on Haven, because her attacking Haven is just so far outside her goals that it doesn't make sense.

[Dai Grepher]

Barris says a couple times in Champions of the Just that the Templars have people scattered all across Thedas.

 

True. And those templars would not have been at Therinfal.
 

[Dai Grepher]

How would Fiona close the breach without the mark? Funny how without time Magic the mages were willing to help the Inquisition first

 

She would have helped the Herald. My point was that after Alexius showed up and they made their deal, Fiona did not consider closing the breach to be a priority. So if Alexius had told her that the templars were coming to kill her and the other mages (as some here are suggesting), then she should have been willing to assume the templars did not consider the breach to be a priority either.

[Sunnie]

 

(Or are we going to start critiquing my overuse of question marks again?)

 

FWIW, you have been much better lately!

[Master Warder Z_]

(Or are we going to start critiquing my overuse of question marks again?)

 

To be fair, you were overusing question marks.

[Boomshakalakalakaboom]

I think my main gripe with Fi-Fi is that after you recruit the mages into the Inquisition she is useless.

She just stands there and does absolutely nothing. She doesn't even have anything worthwhile to say.

Then she has the audacity to say that she wouldn't do anything differently. Are you ****** serious? That is pretty much where my hate stems from.

I wanted to kick her ass out of Skyhold right then and there.

[thesuperdarkone2]

But you can't see what you don't see. Meaning, unless a case of blood magic is shown in the game, they you don't know that it happened. For example. I would never know that Halward Pavus considered using blood magic unless Dorian told me.

It's the same case with Fiona. You can't know for sure that she was controlled by blood magic during the attack on Haven unless the game shows you that she was. Again, none of us are saying that she was controlled by blood magic the whole game. We aren't even saying she was controlled by blood magic in Haven as a matter of fact. We are only saying that she MIGHT have been controlled by blood magic in Haven because her actions in the attack on Haven contradict her previously established motives of keeping her people out of battle.

The point we are making here is this. Yes, Fiona was a moron. We all know this. But we should also consider the possibility that Fiona was being mind-controlled during the attack on Haven, because her attacking Haven is just so far outside her goals that it doesn't make sense.

Don't forget how Idunna was able to use blood magic to control you and your companions without spilling blood and how the guide outright says Fiona and the mages are brainwashed if you side with the templars

[Sifr]

In so much that you accurately described your conduct more than others... sure. A bit of a self-roasting, but hey.

 

Evidence on hand? Headcanon's been trumping facts available for the 'Fiona was blood magiced' position for some time. Broad statements? 'Fiona's character wouldn't stand for X' stance is big on wide-claims of what she wouldn't tolerate, but cites precious few instances of her doing and ignores plenty of examples of her not. Convenient scape goat? The mages couldn't know, it's all dem evil Tevinter's fault!
 

I'm all for tearing into people's arguments- it really doesn't offend me, and I expect the same from others- but you didn't even do that. When your argument was challenged you strawmaned, then ad-homined, and then tried to end the argument with a hypocritical barrage. A pretense of a reasonable discussion is right- but not from the direction you intended. 'Reasonable' doesn't mean 'nice.'

 

I'm frankly more bemused than offended- but do try to drop the false pretense of a moral high ground as you try to leave with the last word.

 

(I'm betting you'll have at least one more response, just to get the last word- though having pointed that out, perhaps you'll try to disprove me by not? Amusing either way.)

 

At least I'm willing to admit that the blood magic theory could be wrong, rather than deny it emphatically.

 

While it's not a perfect theory and requires some obvious assumptions of events to work, it explains away the issues far better than Fiona suffering from major character assassination that ignores his entire backstory entirely, that no-one in Redcliffe wanted to join the Tevinters yet somehow would allow them to murder the Tranquil in the meantime before jumping on the bandwagon to attack Haven, as well as how he was able to corall a group of mages who can't agree over what their end goals for the rebellion were, into a fanatic army ready to live and die for him, in so short a time.

 

(And if we want to talk about someone acting superior and hypocritical, pot meet kettle... and as a Brit, I'll be the kettle)   

 

FWIW, you have been much better lately!

 

Cheers, have been attempting to cut back on my love of questions marks... even if they are so much fun to use!

[Master Warder Z_]

I think my main gripe with Fi-Fi is that after you recruit the mages into the Inquisition she is useless.

She just stands there and does absolutely nothing. She doesn't even have anything worthwhile to say.

Then she has the audacity to say that she wouldn't do anything differently. Are you ****** serious? That is pretty much where my hate stems from.

I wanted to kick her ass out of Skyhold right then and there.

 

And you if i recall correctly, didn't even read any of the novels.

 

That's unbiased dislike right there folks!

[Boost32]

I actually do believe that the Fiona in Val Royeaux was the Envy Demon. That's why the Fiona in the tavern thought it seemed strange. She was probably copied by the Envy Demon like how the Herald can almost be.

I understand your argument. I agree that there wouldn't have been any bodies present at the ritual. But not all blood magic requires a sacrifice of a life, thus leaving a corpse.

Um... from the fact that not that many showed up at Therinfal. Yeah, there could be thousands in the Templar Order, but only a few hundred were at Therinfall, if that.

Prove that all of them were gathering at Therinfal. Lucius putting out the call does not mean the call was answered.

Her choice to ally with Ferelden was pretty on the ball.

What I mean is that not all blood magic spells shoot blood through the air to the target, thus getting blood splatter all over. Some blood magic spells simply manipulate the target's blood inside of them. Like the pride demon manipulating the mages in Origins.

No, you are dismissing a possibility using unsound reasoning. You say there was no blood. But that is a baseless assumption. Krem may have simply neglected to mention that in the report. The blood from the blood magic may have been covered up by the fresh blood that the Charges spilled when they interrupted the ritual. Or the ritual may have only been where the blood mages used their own blood, and none was splattered anywhere.

Back to my original point. The fact that it is a ritual suggests that it has something to do with blood magic. What other rituals are there?

Well, the summoning sciences maybe. Okay. That's possible. A red lyrium ritual. Also possible. A blood magic ritual. Also possible. That the servants of the castle had confused recollections of what happened hints at blood magic.

Fiona not wanting her mages to be involved in a battle against the templars, and then suddenly wanting her mages to be involved in a battle against the templars and the Inquisition is a strange occurrence. Could it be because Fiona is an idiot? Sure. Could it be because Fiona was mind controlled before the battle so that she would comply? Sure. Which is more likely to be the case?

Based on her action in the castle hall, she will turn on Alexius if the true plan is revealed. So yes, it is more likely that Fiona discovered the real plan and then turned on the Venatori in the templar path, which then decided to mind-control her so she would attack the Herald at Haven.

Yet all blood magic needs blood, be it from the casted or from the victim.

You cant use the numbers of templars that showed at Therinfal as proof, there are hundreds of mages at Redcliff yet we dont see it, there should be thousands of Orlesian troops at Arbor Wilds, yet we only see a few of them.
Vivienne says that the mages are fighting a war were they are outnumbered 10 to 1, the mages numbers are in the thousands, if you multiply it to 10 there is no way for them to not reach the thousands.

You are the one who need to prove, you are going against the statement made in the game. I do recognize that not all templars must have been in Therinfal at the same time as the Inquisitor.
But if you need some proof: Barris says they numbers are scattered across Thedas, yet he says they will regroup and go to Haven, if those templars wouldnt go to Therinfal how they would regroup?
Another proof is in the Templar of Hasmal war table, where Leliana says that group is the largest unafilliated group of templars, the sister in Val Royueax says that the numbers of templars who stayed with the Chantry are so few that they canto be called a Order anymore, the Inquisition templars doesnt have the numbers to help to close the Breach. Besides the Hasmal templars (who have less numbers them the ones at Therinfal) there is no large group of templars, do you really think there is another one even when the game says it doesnt exist?


A ally who she decided to betray, excellent choice right there!

Yes it doesnt need blood to be spilled like Idunna did with Hawke, still it need blood, even if from the victim, yet at the ritual there were only Venatori mages.

Mortalitasies do necromancy rituals without blood, Avvars do shamanistic rituals without blood, there are infinitos possibilites of what kind of magic ritual it was. Even if it was blood magic, it doesnt prove it was used against Fiona.

Fiona wanted to be free, yet she sold herself to Tevinter. So yes she is stupid.

And based on her actions at Haven she will not turn against the Venatori.

[The Baconer]

You cant use the numbers of templars that showed at Therinfal as proof, there are thousands of mages at Redcliff yet we dont see it, there should be thousands of Orlesian troops at Arbor Wilds, yet we only see a few of them.

 

No, there are hundreds at most, and numbering probably less than 500. There weren't even a thousand at Andoral's Reach at the beginning of the war. Furthermore, the number that Vivienne throws out is actually 100 to 1, but that is within the scope of all mages in opposition to all non-mages, not rebel mages vs rebel Templars.

[Boost32]

No, there are hundreds at most, and numbering probably less than 500. There weren't even a thousand at Andoral's Reach at the beginning of the war. Furthermore, the number that Vivienne throws out is actually 100 to 1, but that is within the scope of all mages in opposition to all non-mages, not rebel mages vs rebel Templars.

Sorry, I thought hundreds and wrote thousands.

No way for them to be outnumbered 100 to 1 by mudanes, if it was the ratio should be way larger.

[Master Warder Z_]

Sorry, I thought hundreds and wrote thousands.

No way for them to be outnumbered 100 to 1 by mudanes, if it was the ratio should be way larger.

 

I think she was indicating the ratio for Mage via Normal Person.

 

Not any body of the rebellion or what have you, just mages in general.

[The Baconer]

Sorry, I thought hundreds and wrote thousands.

No way for them to be outnumbered 100 to 1 by mudanes, if it was the ratio should be way larger.

 

I don't think she meant that literally.

[Boost32]

I think she was indicating the ratio for Mage via Normal Person.
 
Not any body of the rebellion or what have you, just mages in general.

Even then the ratio should be larger, I doubt the mages have 1% of the entire population.

I don't think she meant that literally.

Very well then, I shall concede the point.

[Sifr]

I think she was indicating the ratio for Mage via Normal Person.

 

Not any body of the rebellion or what have you, just mages in general.

 

Yeah, I think she was talking Magic vs Mundane in general, we have no idea how many Loyalists there are compared to the Rebels.

 

Actually, what always bothered me was how quite a few people we meet in Redcliffe opposed the Rebellion and actually liked the Circles, but ended up joining up with the rebellion regardless because they felt they had no-one else to turn to.

 

For all her talk of being the leader of the loyalists, what exactly was Vivienne doing to help or unite them, given that so many of the loyalists we encounter seem not to even be aware of her? Or did they try to reach her, but were denied entry to her soiree because their robes violated the dress code?