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[Master Warder Z_]

I don't think she meant that literally.

 

Probably not, I mean has there ever been a census for Thedas?

 

I know Orlais and Fereldan were given general populations by Gaider but that's about it.

[Boost32]

Yeah, I think she was talking Magic vs Mundane in general, we have no idea how many Loyalists there are compared to the Rebels.
 
Actually, what always bothered me was how quite a few people we meet in Redcliffe opposed the Rebellion and actually liked the Circles, but ended up joining up with the rebellion regardless because they felt they had no-one else to turn to.
 
For all her talk of being the leader of the loyalists, what exactly was Vivienne doing to help or unite them, given that so many of the loyalists we encounter seem not to even be aware of her? Or did they try to reach her, but were denied entry to her soiree because their robes violated the dress code?
 

The only one that we see is the one she sent to invite us to her ball, the only other time we hear abou the loyalist is if the Inquisitor conscript the mages, then you receive a war table mission from the Hasmal templar. They ask for you to take the loyalist mages in their Cirlce into the Inquisition.
Bioware really dropped the ball with the loyalist faction.

[Sifr]

The only one that we see is the one she sent to invite us to her ball, the only other time we hear abou the loyalist is if the Inquisitor conscript the mages, then you receive a war table mission from the Hasmal templar. They ask for you to take the loyalist mages in their Cirlce into the Inquisition.
Bioware really dropped the ball with the loyalist faction.

 

No doubt, Vivienne having some kind of important role in the resolution to the Mage-Templar conflict, as well as serving as a rival leader and counterpoint to Fiona, might have given her some much needed relevance, as well as some kind of story arc.

 

Instead, she has woefully little story material, either Mage or Orlesian Civil War related, which seemed tailor-made for her?

[Deztyn]

The breach was stable. It was no longer sending out demons.

Stable for the moment.

It's also amusing how you claim that Fiona would think that the templars would consider the breach so dire as to close it immediately when Fiona herself does not consider the breach dire enough to close immediately with the mages.

Not a point in her favor.

But you can't see what you don't see. Meaning, unless a case of blood magic is shown in the game, they you don't know that it happened. For example. I would never know that Halward Pavus considered using blood magic unless Dorian told me.

You know what?

You are absolutely right.

You've convinced me.

Since we didn't see it in game, I can now say with complete and utter certainty that Dorian is not in fact gay. The truth is his mother used a blood magic ritual on him to make him think he was gay.

/canon

I think my main gripe with Fi-Fi is that after you recruit the mages into the Inquisition she is useless.

She just stands there and does absolutely nothing. She doesn't even have anything worthwhile to say.

Then she has the audacity to say that she wouldn't do anything differently. Are you ****** serious? That is pretty much where my hate stems from.

I wanted to kick her ass out of Skyhold right then and there.

I think for me the final straw was when she asked me about Alibear.

"Oh. He's great. You know, aside from having to raise an army to march across Ferelden to kick out a foreign enemy. Hey, it's a good thing he didn't know it was his mommy who sold out his country to the Vints and kicked out his uncle though, because then he would have really been having a bad day."

[Sifr]

I think for me the final straw was when she asked me about Alibear.

"Oh. He's great. You know, aside from having to raise an army to march across Ferelden to kick out a foreign enemy. Hey, it's a good thing he didn't know it was his mommy who sold out his country to the Vints and kicked out his uncle though, because then he would have really been having a bad day."

 

Hey, it could have been worse, she could have told him his father was really Loghain...

 

[Deztyn]

Please.

Fiona is Orlesian!

[Boost32]

Hey, it could have been worse, she could have told him his father was really Loghain...
 

At least he would have had a better father, one who would not abandon him.

[Andromelek]

Hey, it could have been worse, she could have told him his father was really Loghain...

Alistair would have a brain in that case, Maric was great, but he was really away from being the most cunning man in the world, in fact without Loghain or Flemeth, he wouldn't succeed on retrieving Ferelden form Orlais, he also was a bit irresponsable , for what we know, he had three mates and a son with each one, now, if you sum this characteristics to Fiona's irrefutable stupidity, you get a being that can easily contest with kids and dudes who fried their mind on some magical sh*t for the title of the dumbest "sapien" being over Thedas

[Sifr]

Please.

Fiona is Orlesian!

 

Worse, an Orlesian Grey Warden...

 

That adds a whole other layer to the extreme hate sex those two would have.

 

(Ah dammit, now I completely ship them)

 

[Master Warder Z_]

Worse, an Orlesian Grey Warden...

 

That adds a whole other layer to the extreme hate sex those two would have.

 

(Ah dammit, now I completely ship them)

 

 

Loghain deserves better.

[Andromelek]

Worse, an Orlesian Grey Warden...

That adds a whole other layer to the extreme hate sex those two would have.

(Ah dammit, now I completely ship them)

Please stop! I thought it was a hate thread for Fiona, not for Loghain

[Sifr]

Two people who have everyone (especially Alistair) hating them and blame them for everything that went wrong, regardless of their level or degree of involvement in said things going wrong... sounds like they'd be perfect for each other.

 

Totally onboard with Team Fioghain.

 

[Master Warder Z_]

Loghain is the male and therefore it's customary for his initial name to go first in a ship.

Just pointing that out

[Sifr]

Loghain is the male and therefore it's customary for his initial name to go first in a ship.

Just pointing that out

 

Morristair and Morrighain would disagree... although it might just prove that this is the case with hate-ships.

 

And to steer the topic somewhat back on course, is anyone else a little peeved that if both are alive, the only two people who both knew Maric, are/were members of the Grey Wardens and have a strained relationship with Alistair, didn't have any interaction in Skyhold whatsoever?

 

Even Loghain bothered to see Morrigan or wished to send her his regards, despite the circumstances of how they might know each other.

[Andromelek]

It's funny how everyone on that family is too dependant from a third top strategist and/or powerful mages that in 2/3 cases hate to death.

Edit: Now that I think about it, the part of the apostates saving their arses is a tradition that comes since Calenhad's times, what the hell!? is that they just can't win a fight by their own?

[MisterJB]

But they aren't willing to help them. That's my point. They are only trying to use them, and they screwed everything up for the mages by that point. Fiona would want to punish them for how they led her and her people astray and ruined their chances of finding a peaceful existence. So she would turn on them, make them pay, and then what? A few options. 1. Run and hide. Hedge mage style. 2. Throw yourself on the mercy of the Inquisition since they were interested in recruiting the mages. 3. Surrender to the Circles, as many mages wanted to do already.

Fiona, when she was being sheltered by Ferelden and the Templars were alone, felt that the situation was dire enough to sell her people to slavery.

Now that her position has worsened by having Ferelden no longer acting as a shield and the position of the Templars has improved by their alliance with the Inquisition, she will actually muster the guts to choose death over servitude and let go of the only lifeline keeping her from drowning?

Really?

 

There is an unspecified amount of time that passes between the return from Therinfal and the journey into the Valley of Sacred Ashes to close the breach. Cullen also points out that you have time to prepare. And all that was said about the vets arrival was that they came ahead of the others. Meaning, they got there early. This does not mean that the rest don't make it to Haven shortly after.

 

Nothing indicates that there were as many as 24,000 or even 240. We're talking the number of templars who went to Therinfal - the ones who were corrupted red - the ones who survived the battle at Therinfal.

 

You have been told this before. We are specifically told how EVERY Templar in Ferelden and Orlais was recalled to Therinfall. Since the population of those nations number in the millions, and the Templar Order is one of the most powerful order of Knigths in the world, tens of thousands of Templars sounds about right.

 

You have presented zero evidence that any Templars beyond the few dozen veterans reached Haven before Corypheus attacked.

I don't have to present evidence they didn't because the burden of proof falls on you.

 

A few hundred mages? Where did you get this number?

Everyone refers to the mages as "hundreds". Even Fiona does.

 

What does the dragon have to do with anything?

For one the notion that one portion of the Venatori plus a few hundred mages plus one dragon could defeat every Templar in Orlais and Ferelden if they were all gathered in one spot is ridiculous.

 

 

Runs her through with what? The murder knife is in the Hero of Ferelden's possession... or Leliana's. The Herald would not be able to one shot Fiona. Nor would the Herald want to if Fiona was surrendering.

A sword to the gut will oneshot anyone.

Now, two things.

First, you don't speak for every Herald out there.

 

Second, in the middle of a battle, I imagine people aren't exactly doublechecking to see who is surrendering and who isn't. They probably just kill whatever is in front of them.

Hell, I can't even imagine the mess medieval battles must have been. How armies did not end up fighting themselves is beyond me. When there is war all around you, do you really have time to check heraldies to see if you aren't killing your own men?

 

The command would have been issued before the attack on Haven, not in the middle of it. They would flee while the Venatori and the Inquisition fight each other. You know, the concept of desertion has been around a long time. It can and does work. Fiona could have told her mages to desert first chance they got and then meet up later at a secret location they all know about. Simple.

There is absolutely no reason Fiona would have deserted the Venatori before the battle.

At most, she might have realized she was on the wrong side if she noticed the Tainted Dragon fighting on their behalf but, by then , it would be too late.

 

[Sifr]

It's funny how everyone on that family is too dependant from a third top strategist and/or powerful mages that in 2/3 cases hate to death.

Edit: Now that I think about it, the part of the apostates saving their arses is a tradition that comes since Calenhad's times, what the hell!? is that they just can't win a fight by their own?

 

Definitely, in addition to the weird pattern of the friend-turned-rival (Myrddin, Loghain), the powerful mage who aided them (Aldenon, Fiona, Wynne), the Witch with her own plans (Shayna, Flemeth, Morrigan), and the often complicated, not-entirely-faithful marriages.

[MisterJB]

 

It's a standard fantasy and mythos party. The warrior is the main character and the wizard is the support; then there can be a seductive dark sorceress.

Calenhad is King Arthur, Aldenon is Merlin, Morrigan is Morgana, etc.

 

[The Baconer]

You have been told this before. We are specifically told how EVERY Templar in Ferelden and Orlais was recalled to Therinfall. Since the population of those nations number in the millions, and the Templar Order is one of the most powerful order of Knigths in the world, tens of thousands of Templars sounds about right.

 

Tens of thousands seems obscene... unless we were cutting it off at around 20,000 or something, at their peak.

 

I mean, let's just take a flat 10,000. You couldn't fit that number into Therinfal even if you wanted to, and the context of the Templar quest rules out a larger encampment around the fortress. While the order might have been intended for every Templar serving in Orlais and Ferelden, we would also have to be accounting for casualties in the war, those lost at the Conclave, those who were never onboard with the war at all, knights that deserted the main force (like those in the Hinterlands), those who simply didn't receive word for whatever reason, and the knights who had already been turned into Red Templars and were working in their own units across Thedas.

 

The number that the Inquisition eventually takes home would be further reduced by the battle at Therinfal. The Herald certainly isn't bagging anywhere near 20,000 Templars, and the garrison at Therinfal wouldn't even have been half that number to begin with.

[Jedi Master of Orion]

As I said on the other page, Ser Barris says that "We've numbers across Thedas" and that "Officers across Thedas" are the highest ranking templars with the Knight-Vigilant dead and the Lord Seeker compromised, so presumably there would have to be more templars out there.

[Dai Grepher]

Don't forget how Idunna was able to use blood magic to control you and your companions without spilling blood and how the guide outright says Fiona and the mages are brainwashed if you side with the templars

 

Yes, thank you. Idunna is another good example. I don't go by what players guides state however. Also, brainwashing isn't the same as mind-control.
 

[Dai Grepher]

Yet all blood magic needs blood, be it from the casted or from the victim.

You cant use the numbers of templars that showed at Therinfal as proof, there are hundreds of mages at Redcliff yet we dont see it, there should be thousands of Orlesian troops at Arbor Wilds, yet we only see a few of them.
Vivienne says that the mages are fighting a war were they are outnumbered 10 to 1, the mages numbers are in the thousands, if you multiply it to 10 there is no way for them to not reach the thousands.

You are the one who need to prove, you are going against the statement made in the game. I do recognize that not all templars must have been in Therinfal at the same time as the Inquisitor.
But if you need some proof: Barris says they numbers are scattered across Thedas, yet he says they will regroup and go to Haven, if those templars wouldnt go to Therinfal how they would regroup?
Another proof is in the Templar of Hasmal war table, where Leliana says that group is the largest unafilliated group of templars, the sister in Val Royueax says that the numbers of templars who stayed with the Chantry are so few that they canto be called a Order anymore, the Inquisition templars doesnt have the numbers to help to close the Breach. Besides the Hasmal templars (who have less numbers them the ones at Therinfal) there is no large group of templars, do you really think there is another one even when the game says it doesnt exist?


A ally who she decided to betray, excellent choice right there!

Yes it doesnt need blood to be spilled like Idunna did with Hawke, still it need blood, even if from the victim, yet at the ritual there were only Venatori mages.

Mortalitasies do necromancy rituals without blood, Avvars do shamanistic rituals without blood, there are infinitos possibilites of what kind of magic ritual it was. Even if it was blood magic, it doesnt prove it was used against Fiona.

Fiona wanted to be free, yet she sold herself to Tevinter. So yes she is stupid.

And based on her actions at Haven she will not turn against the Venatori.

 

Eh... all blood magic affects blood in some way. Some spells require drawing blood, some spells only require magical spells cast on a person's blood.

 

But it's the number of templars who showed at Therinfal that we're talking about here. I'm going on how big Therinfal is. It couldn't have held more than 300.

 

There was never any statement that all or even most of the templars in Thedas were at Therinfal. The scattered templars would regroup at Haven, obviously. But that would take time. But this is going way off topic. Even if the Herald only had 24 veteran templars, Fiona still would not want her few hundred mages going up against them and the Inquisition (which had its own templars).

 

You just admitted that Barris said there are templars scattered all throughout Ferelden and Orlais. So of course there are templars elsewhere.

 

She didn't betray Ferelden. Alexius illegally evicted Teagan, but this is neither here nor there. Fiona made the right choice in approaching the crown for help. She had no involvement in Alexius ousting Teagan.

 

The blood mage can use his or her own power. Meaning, the cast spells that deplete their health instead of their mana.

 

Yes, it doesn't prove blood magic was used on Fiona, but it would be proof that Venatori can use blood magic, which some people here were trying to argue against. The rituals of those other cultures is unique to them. What ritual was so important that they stayed in an unsecure location such as Redcliffe castle? Add to this the fact that the servants were confused as is their minds had been messed with. Which it seems you forgot to address.

 

I agree she's stupid. But she isn't stupid enough to throw her life away fighting the Inquisition.

 

Yet she turned on the Venatori in the mages path. And her actions at Haven are what we are questioning.

[Dai Grepher]

Stable for the moment.

Not a point in her favor.


You know what?

You are absolutely right.

You've convinced me.

Since we didn't see it in game, I can now say with complete and utter certainty that Dorian is not in fact gay. The truth is his mother used a blood magic ritual on him to make him think he was gay.

/canon

 

Right, so Fiona would not consider the breach a priority. So seeing the templars pass right by without conflict should have caused Fiona to question Alexius' story.

 

Yeah, because that wasn't a complete mischaracterization of what I wrote. I wrote that if its not in the game, then it doesn't automatically mean it didn't happen in the storyline. For example, someone prior to this post stated there were more templars at Therinfal than what was seen. It would be erroneous of me to reply saying that if we didn't see all the templars ourselves then it means there weren't more templars at Therinfal than what we saw. Regardless, there is evidence of Fiona being controlled during the Haven attack.

[Dai Grepher]

Hey, it could have been worse, she could have told him his father was really Loghain...

 

 

And Alistair is married to Anora.

[Bethgael]

/shrugs

 

Because the DA:I devs gave so much thought to Fiona they got her eye colour wrong? (they should be brown, not grey).