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[Dai Grepher]

Fiona, when she was being sheltered by Ferelden and the Templars were alone, felt that the situation was dire enough to sell her people to slavery.

Now that her position has worsened by having Ferelden no longer acting as a shield and the position of the Templars has improved by their alliance with the Inquisition, she will actually muster the guts to choose death over servitude and let go of the only lifeline keeping her from drowning?

Really?

 

 

 

 

You have been told this before. We are specifically told how EVERY Templar in Ferelden and Orlais was recalled to Therinfall. Since the population of those nations number in the millions, and the Templar Order is one of the most powerful order of Knigths in the world, tens of thousands of Templars sounds about right.

 

You have presented zero evidence that any Templars beyond the few dozen veterans reached Haven before Corypheus attacked.

I don't have to present evidence they didn't because the burden of proof falls on you.

 

 

 

Everyone refers to the mages as "hundreds". Even Fiona does.

 

 

 

For one the notion that one portion of the Venatori plus a few hundred mages plus one dragon could defeat every Templar in Orlais and Ferelden if they were all gathered in one spot is ridiculous.

 

 

 

 

A sword to the gut will oneshot anyone.

Now, two things.

First, you don't speak for every Herald out there.

 

Second, in the middle of a battle, I imagine people aren't exactly doublechecking to see who is surrendering and who isn't. They probably just kill whatever is in front of them.

Hell, I can't even imagine the mess medieval battles must have been. How armies did not end up fighting themselves is beyond me. When there is war all around you, do you really have time to check heraldies to see if you aren't killing your own men?

 

 

 

There is absolutely no reason Fiona would have deserted the Venatori before the battle.

At most, she might have realized she was on the wrong side if she noticed the Tainted Dragon fighting on their behalf but, by then , it would be too late.

 

You're still not getting it. There is no offer of servitude to Tevinter in exchange for citizenship. She has been fooled. Her people were taken from her and pitted against the Inquisition to die for the "Elder One". At that point, Fiona would not have rolled over and continued to let Alexius win. She would turn on him.

 

Called there doesn't mean they showed up. Prove all of them were called and how many showed up.

 

But you have no reason to think the main force of templars did not reach Haven. So the burden of proof is also on you to prove your claim that only the veterans made it to Haven in time for the attack. Besides, this all goes back to what Fiona would have believed and what she was allegedly told by Alexius to trick her into attacking Haven. Would Fiona believe that the main templar force was not in Haven? Would she really think that only a small number of templars were there? Or would she assume the worst, that the main templar force she feared so much that it drove her to Tevinter was now at Haven? In that case, she would never agree to attack Haven. She would demand that Alexius deliver on his promise to take the mages to Tevinter. When he refuses, then Fiona knows that Alexius was lying, resulting in her turning on him.

 

A sword to the gut is never enough in the game itself. I don't speak for all Heralds, but Fiona disarming and appealing to the Herald with words would be a way for her to turn against the Venatori and attempt to negotiate with the Herald. Even if your Herald would run up to her and kill her in one hit, the point is that Fiona still could have made the attempt to make peace with the Inquisition. Now, you may say this would be a foolish thing for Fiona to try in the middle of a fight. But you believe Fiona is prone to foolish decisions don't you? So this sounds right up her alley, doesn't it? And that's my point. She doesn't even attempt to talk to the Herald. She just attacks blindly with no explanation. This is a complete 180 from how she was acting before this.

 

Uh, yes there is. The Venatori betrayed her and forced her people into a battle they would likely die fighting for no reason that benefits them. Too late for what? I already showed how she could have turned on the Venatori. She could have started attacking Venatori and helping the Herald, and then she could have disarmed and asked the Herald to wait and not attack her while she explained what happened. Dorian doesn't seem to have a problem doing exactly this at the beginning of the attack.

[Boost32]

Eh... all blood magic affects blood in some way. Some spells require drawing blood, some spells only require magical spells cast on a person's blood.
 
But it's the number of templars who showed at Therinfal that we're talking about here. I'm going on how big Therinfal is. It couldn't have held more than 300.
 
There was never any statement that all or even most of the templars in Thedas were at Therinfal. The scattered templars would regroup at Haven, obviously. But that would take time. But this is going way off topic. Even if the Herald only had 24 veteran templars, Fiona still would not want her few hundred mages going up against them and the Inquisition (which had its own templars).
 
You just admitted that Barris said there are templars scattered all throughout Ferelden and Orlais. So of course there are templars elsewhere.
 
She didn't betray Ferelden. Alexius illegally evicted Teagan, but this is neither here nor there. Fiona made the right choice in approaching the crown for help. She had no involvement in Alexius ousting Teagan.
 
The blood mage can use his or her own power. Meaning, the cast spells that deplete their health instead of their mana.
 
Yes, it doesn't prove blood magic was used on Fiona, but it would be proof that Venatori can use blood magic, which some people here were trying to argue against. The rituals of those other cultures is unique to them. What ritual was so important that they stayed in an unsecure location such as Redcliffe castle? Add to this the fact that the servants were confused as is their minds had been messed with. Which it seems you forgot to address.
 
I agree she's stupid. But she isn't stupid enough to throw her life away fighting the Inquisition.
 
Yet she turned on the Venatori in the mages path. And her actions at Haven are what we are questioning.

Then you cant really say they were doing blood magic, since no one blood was affected.

You are taking that number out of no where. Barris says, if you conscript them, that the templar Order will disband, the entire organization would join the Inquisition, at the epilogue they are the core of the Inquisition army and in the opening show UA how the mages are vastly outnunbered.

No, but the inverse is also true. Yet they didn't gathered at Haven, Barris said they would regroup first before going there.

Yes, she did. She saw what Alexius did and did nothing to stop him, she betrayed Ferelden at that moment.

And for that he would need to bleed, yet there is no mention in Krem's report.

Everyone knows the Venatori can use it, we just don't agree that they used it. How can I know? And you are the one claiming it was blood magic, even without any blood, so you need to prove it wad. And again, even if they used it at the servants, doesn't mean the ritual was blood magic too.

And yet she did it.

And yet she stayed with them on the templar side, we can continue this circular argument if you want, you are not going to prove anything with it.

[TK514]

I agree she's stupid. But she isn't stupid enough to throw her life away fighting the Inquisition.

 

I don't know that that's true at all.  She's already tossed her principles into the lake when she chose to sell herself and her people into slavery and betray her royal benefactors for the promise of a nebulous future in Tevinter and some temporary security in the present.

 

If we're going to be playing the "What if without a shred of evidence" game, as is the case with blood magic, then I have no trouble seeing her agreeing to fight for Corypheus.  All he's got to do is offer her a new bargain where, if the Inquisitor dies during the attack on Haven, her people will be granted immediate citizenship in Tevinter instead of spending ten years as slaves.  I mean, once she's betrayed her people and her son, betraying her Grey Warden history by making a deal with a Blighted Magister isn't much of a stretch.  Especially if she thinks it might get her out of the hole she's dug.

 

If anything, I'd think Fiona supporters would be proud of her Suicide by Herald.  It's an 11th hour return to the novel's 'Freedom or Death' Grand Enchanter they apparently wish she'd been all along.

[Boost32]

You have been told this before. We are specifically told how EVERY Templar in Ferelden and Orlais was recalled to Therinfall. Since the population of those nations number in the millions, and the Templar Order is one of the most powerful order of Knigths in the world, tens of thousands of Templars sounds about right.
 

Just a correction, the order was for all the templars who broke away from the Chantry and stayed with the Seekers.
The Hasmal templars were from the Free Marches and received the call.

[The Oracle]

Another thing that annoys me is that she's only considering the Mages that are currently under her leadership, when it comes to selling themselves to Tevinter. What about all the new Mages that come into their power in southern Thedas? Say she sells herself and the others off and a few years later, you've got a couple of hundred kids around the ages of 8-12 finding out they've got magic. What the hell do they do? Do they fall under the agreement? Are they abandoned? Are they meant to gather up their things and get packed off to Tevinter? Do they go to the now crumbling Chantry? Do they get booted to the rebel Templars and possibly just made Tranquil or killed immediately? Does absolutely nobody in Thedas think in the long term?

 

There should have been an "bitchslap" option in game. My quizzy would have used it liberally on both sides of the Mage/Templar conflict. In fact, my Quizzy would probably have to get her non-magic hand replaced due to the amount of sense she'd need to slap into people.

[MisterJB]

You're still not getting it. There is no offer of servitude to Tevinter in exchange for citizenship. She has been fooled. Her people were taken from her and pitted against the Inquisition to die for the "Elder One". At that point, Fiona would not have rolled over and continued to let Alexius win. She would turn on him.

There is no way for Fiona to get out of the hole she dug herself in. She has burned bridges with literally everyone else in the world. Turning on him means she loses her only lifeline while her enemies just keep getting stronger. She can't turn on him.

 

Besides, we have no idea how Alexius framed his argument.

He could have claimed this would be the first battle the mages were expected to fight for Tevinter or that the Inquisition and the Templars would never let them leave the South and thus one side must be destroyed before they join forces.

 

 

But you have no reason to think the main force of templars did not reach Haven. So the burden of proof is also on you to prove your claim that only the veterans made it to Haven in time for the attack

That is now burden of proof works.

We are told a few dozen veterans are coming ahead to seal the Breach and we see these Templars. After that, we have a limited period of time for the rest to arrive because Haven is destroyed in short order. Since we are never told they arrived during that period, we have no reason to believe they did.

 

Besides, one can easily infer they didn't arrive.

First, the timeline. The Inquisition's party of four travels from Therinfall to Haven. Shortly afterwards, a couple dozen Templars arrive.

This makes sense because four travel faster than twenty four.

However, not more than half a day passes between the closing of the Breach and the destruction of Haven. Even if the Veteran Templars and the remaining ones left Therinfall at the same time and the veterans rushed ahead, the remaining thousands would take days more to arrive because armies move slowly.

 

Second, the fact that the Inquisition lost. Had the entirety of the Templars at Therinfall, Templars summoned from at least three different nations, been at Haven, the Inquisition would have won because there is no way a small portion of the Venatori plus a few hundred rebel mages plus a dragon could defeat the combined forces of Templars from three nations. Orlais, Ferelen and the Free Marches.

 

Besides, this all goes back to what Fiona would have believed and what she was allegedly told by Alexius to trick her into attacking Haven. Would Fiona believe that the main templar force was not in Haven? Would she really think that only a small number of templars were there? Or would she assume the worst, that the main templar force she feared so much that it drove her to Tevinter was now at Haven?

 

I assume she could do the math and realize a force of Templars numbering in the thousands wouldn't have the time to travel from Therinfall to Haven.

Besides, Alexius tells her whatever he wants and she believes it. A few infiltrators managed to convince her the Templars were massing for an attack while they were all being summoned to Val Royeaux.

 

She would demand that Alexius deliver on his promise to take the mages to Tevinter. When he refuses, then Fiona knows that Alexius was lying, resulting in her turning on him.

 

No, she wouldn't. Because she is either fighting the Templars and Inquisition with the Venatori or by herself.

 

A sword to the gut is never enough in the game itself.

Gameplay-story segregation.

 

Fiona disarming and appealing to the Herald with words would be a way for her to turn against the Venatori and attempt to negotiate with the Herald. Even if your Herald would run up to her and kill her in one hit, the point is that Fiona still could have made the attempt to make peace with the Inquisition

 

1-By the time Fiona fights the Herald, the Inquisition has already lost the battle. Why tie herself to a sinking ship.

 

2-Why would she try to talk to the Inquisition when they ally themselves with the Templars? At the very least, the Venatori are pro-mage.

 

3-Holding negotiations in the middle of a battle?

 

4-Even if she actually managed to have a dialogue with the Herald, what would that accomplish? The mages are scattered and enganging the enemy and, hell, they are actually winning the battle.

 

This is a complete 180 from how she was acting before this.

Fiona sold her people into slavery. Now they are fighting for their masters. Where is the 180?

[MisterJB]

Another thing that annoys me is that she's only considering the Mages that are currently under her leadership, when it comes to selling themselves to Tevinter. What about all the new Mages that come into their power in southern Thedas? Say she sells herself and the others off and a few years later, you've got a couple of hundred kids around the ages of 8-12 finding out they've got magic. What the hell do they do? Do they fall under the agreement? Are they abandoned? Are they meant to gather up their things and get packed off to Tevinter? Do they go to the now crumbling Chantry? Do they get booted to the rebel Templars and possibly just made Tranquil or killed immediately? Does absolutely nobody in Thedas think in the long term?

 

There should have been an "bitchslap" option in game. My quizzy would have used it liberally on both sides of the Mage/Templar conflict. In fact, my Quizzy would probably have to get her non-magic hand replaced due to the amount of sense she'd need to slap into people.

I imagine her only consideration are the mages alive at this point in time.

Future generations will have to fend for themselves in the South.

 

Anders would be frothing at the mouth, lol.

[Master Warder Z_]

I imagine her only consideration are the mages alive at this point in time.
Future generations will have to fend for themselves in the South.

Anders would be frothing at the mouth, lol.

When wasn't he?

[MisterJB]

 

When he was commiting acts of terrorism.

[Master Warder Z_]

When he was commiting acts of terrorism.

He seemed pretty deranged to me then personally, mouthing his shortsighted platitudes

[Deztyn]

Right, so Fiona would not consider the breach a priority. So seeing the templars pass right by without conflict should have caused Fiona to question Alexius' story.

You can just as easily make the opposite argument. Why would the Inquisition help the Templars when they have done nothing to help them?

Yeah, because that wasn't a complete mischaracterization of what I wrote. I wrote that if its not in the game, then it doesn't automatically mean it didn't happen in the storyline. [...] Regardless, there is evidence of Fiona being controlled during the Haven attack.

Exactly. 'It's not in the game so it could be true' can be used to justify absolutely anything you want.

The only evidence that Fiona is being controlled is wishful thinking, and the belief that she should have been treated as more important than Knight-Captain Denam during In Your Heart Shall Burn.

[Dai Grepher]

Then you cant really say they were doing blood magic, since no one blood was affected.

You are taking that number out of no where. Barris says, if you conscript them, that the templar Order will disband, the entire organization would join the Inquisition, at the epilogue they are the core of the Inquisition army and in the opening show UA how the mages are vastly outnunbered.

No, but the inverse is also true. Yet they didn't gathered at Haven, Barris said they would regroup first before going there.

Yes, she did. She saw what Alexius did and did nothing to stop him, she betrayed Ferelden at that moment.

And for that he would need to bleed, yet there is no mention in Krem's report.

Everyone knows the Venatori can use it, we just don't agree that they used it. How can I know? And you are the one claiming it was blood magic, even without any blood, so you need to prove it wad. And again, even if they used it at the servants, doesn't mean the ritual was blood magic too.

And yet she did it.

And yet she stayed with them on the templar side, we can continue this circular argument if you want, you are not going to prove anything with it.

 

They could have been using their own blood to power the ritual. Meaning, Activate Blood Magic = Ritual powered by blood instead of mana. Also, the castle's servants were confused and could not remember what happened. Which indicates their minds were likely manipulated via blood magic. Not saying the ritual itself manipulated them, but it implies the mages at Redcliffe used blood magic on them at some point.

 

Barris says that because those at Therinfal represent what is left of the order in an official capacity. Other groups such as the one at Hassmal or Ostwick are just divisions. The main unit, led by the remaining captains as well as the Lord Seeker, is at Therinfal. Notice in the Hassmal chore table mission that they are reluctant to join the Inquisition even if the templar order is allied or absorbed into the Inquisition? They are basically free to choose their own way at that point since there is no official order anymore. But what was left of the official order was at Therinfal. That is the organization Barris was referring to. He can't speak for all the various branches that exist elsewhere. Realistically, it's up to every individual templar to decide what to do. Like the templar who let Cole die. He abandoned the order.
 

Well I don't know where Barris was talking about then. Maybe the White Spire. Maybe Therinfal. The point still stands. The regroup would be on those templars scattered all around, like the ones at Hassmal and Ostwick. The ones currently at Therinfal would go to Haven directly. The veterans were sent ahead to help with the breach.

 

First, you don't know she did nothing to stop Alexius. He may have ousted Teagan while Fiona was off tending to her charges, and then she found out about it later and protested what Alexius did behind her back. Second, she had no way of getting back at him after that point. His action alienated the mages from Ferelden. So it was Tevinter or bust by that point. Besides, with Teagan bringing the crown back to evict them, it meant that Alexius had to make good on his promise and start moving the mages before Teagan returned. So there was a silver lining in that respect. But again, this is irrelevant to the issue. Fiona was correct to ally with Ferelden, so not all her decisions were bad.

 

Even if it required the bloodmage to bleed, Krem would not necessarily notice that while rushing in to cut the bloodmage open the old fashioned way. By the time the Chargers are done, the bloodmages would be covered in blood from the battle, in which case there is no way to tell that they had been bleeding themselves before that.

 

Thanks for agreeing that the Venatori can use blood magic. That's all we were trying to confirm in this one point. So, since the Venatori can use blood magic, isn't it possible that they used it on Fiona before the attack on Haven?

 

Or did she? Did she make the conscious choice to throw away her life and the lives of the mages by attacking Haven, or was she controlled through blood magic?

 

It's not a circular argument. You just have to think it through. If the Herald sides with the mages and goes to Redcliffe, Felix reveals Alexius' plan. Fiona rebels against Alexius in the main hall. Skip forward one year. Fiona is in a cell with red lyrium growing out of her. She knows of the "Elder One" but not his identity, apparently. Which means she likely left Redcliffe with the Inquisition when the crown showed up and evicted Alexius. She wasn't in the cell for the whole year (since she could still talk), and yet she was a prisoner. So she fought against Alexius and was captured at some point. Maybe a month before the Herald and Dorian arrive. Fiona is still capable of telling time and can keep track of the date. So all the evidence points to her having turned against Alexius. The question is why she didn't in the templar path. What is different about that timeline? She leaves Redcliffe with Alexius thinking the mages were being taken to Tevinter, only to find a main Venatori force marching south on Haven led by someone named Calpernia. Same situation. The Venatori army serving an "Elder One" looking to conquer the south. Again, "You can't involve my people in this" is said to Alexius. So why wouldn't she turn on Alexius at this point, especially when Dorain confirms that other rebel mages fled or fought and were killed?

 

You might answer that Fiona joined forces with the Venatori army because she felt she had no choice, because they would have killed her if she had not joined them. But isn't fighting against the Inquisition the same as dying? This is basically Fiona choosing how she wants to die. I think she would rather die fighting the man who fouled things up for her and the mages so completely, rather than die killing innocent people in the Inquisition who tried to appeal to her for help and closed the breach to save the world. Why would Fiona want to send her people to die killing good guys?

[Dai Grepher]

I don't know that that's true at all.  She's already tossed her principles into the lake when she chose to sell herself and her people into slavery and betray her royal benefactors for the promise of a nebulous future in Tevinter and some temporary security in the present.

 

If we're going to be playing the "What if without a shred of evidence" game, as is the case with blood magic, then I have no trouble seeing her agreeing to fight for Corypheus.  All he's got to do is offer her a new bargain where, if the Inquisitor dies during the attack on Haven, her people will be granted immediate citizenship in Tevinter instead of spending ten years as slaves.  I mean, once she's betrayed her people and her son, betraying her Grey Warden history by making a deal with a Blighted Magister isn't much of a stretch.  Especially if she thinks it might get her out of the hole she's dug.

 

If anything, I'd think Fiona supporters would be proud of her Suicide by Herald.  It's an 11th hour return to the novel's 'Freedom or Death' Grand Enchanter they apparently wish she'd been all along.

 

She said swearing to Tevinter would not have been her first choice, but she had no choice. So she did it out of a feeling of necessity, not desire. She didn't betray Ferelden. Alexius ousted Arl Teagan, not her. And besides, none of this confirms that she would be dumb enough to kill herself against the Inquisition.

 

She was a Grey Warden. She would never willing serve the blight. Why would she trust a darkspawn magister, especially after his servant had lied to her about everything thus far? Corypheus is no longer part of Tevinter. He can't offer citizenship there. Besides, Cory saw Tevinter as broken and pathetic. He would have offered Fiona a place in his new world once he ascends as a god, mu hu haw ha ha ha. Fiona would not have gone along with that.

 

She didn't betray her son in my playthrough, and as I wrote above, she didn't betray the Ferelden monarchs (Cousland and Anora) either. But, you raise an interesting point that I hadn't considered. What if Alistair is king? Why would she side with the Venatori willingly, knowing that they intended on attacking Ferelden and hurting Alistair? It must be blood magic.

 

I would think Fiona fans would rather she made that choice against Alexius instead. As a Fiona hater myself, I rather like the idea that she tried to fight the Venatori in a last ditch effort to do right, but then got pwned and brainwashed with blood magic to lead some of her own people to their deaths against the very organization that tried to help her.

 

Personally, I've always known she was a stupid selfish wench. Spreads em' for some jerk like Maric during a dangerous mission in the Deep Roads, then drops the child on Maric along with a bunch of demands on how the child should be raised without her being in the child's life, and then causes trouble within the Circles.

[Dai Grepher]

There is no way for Fiona to get out of the hole she dug herself in. She has burned bridges with literally everyone else in the world. Turning on him means she loses her only lifeline while her enemies just keep getting stronger. She can't turn on him.

 

Besides, we have no idea how Alexius framed his argument.

He could have claimed this would be the first battle the mages were expected to fight for Tevinter or that the Inquisition and the Templars would never let them leave the South and thus one side must be destroyed before they join forces.

 

That is now burden of proof works.

We are told a few dozen veterans are coming ahead to seal the Breach and we see these Templars. After that, we have a limited period of time for the rest to arrive because Haven is destroyed in short order. Since we are never told they arrived during that period, we have no reason to believe they did.

 

Besides, one can easily infer they didn't arrive.

First, the timeline. The Inquisition's party of four travels from Therinfall to Haven. Shortly afterwards, a couple dozen Templars arrive.

This makes sense because four travel faster than twenty four.

However, not more than half a day passes between the closing of the Breach and the destruction of Haven. Even if the Veteran Templars and the remaining ones left Therinfall at the same time and the veterans rushed ahead, the remaining thousands would take days more to arrive because armies move slowly.

 

Second, the fact that the Inquisition lost. Had the entirety of the Templars at Therinfall, Templars summoned from at least three different nations, been at Haven, the Inquisition would have won because there is no way a small portion of the Venatori plus a few hundred rebel mages plus a dragon could defeat the combined forces of Templars from three nations. Orlais, Ferelen and the Free Marches.

 

I assume she could do the math and realize a force of Templars numbering in the thousands wouldn't have the time to travel from Therinfall to Haven.

Besides, Alexius tells her whatever he wants and she believes it. A few infiltrators managed to convince her the Templars were massing for an attack while they were all being summoned to Val Royeaux.

 

No, she wouldn't. Because she is either fighting the Templars and Inquisition with the Venatori or by herself.

 

Gameplay-story segregation.

 

1-By the time Fiona fights the Herald, the Inquisition has already lost the battle. Why tie herself to a sinking ship.

 

2-Why would she try to talk to the Inquisition when they ally themselves with the Templars? At the very least, the Venatori are pro-mage.

 

3-Holding negotiations in the middle of a battle?

 

4-Even if she actually managed to have a dialogue with the Herald, what would that accomplish? The mages are scattered and enganging the enemy and, hell, they are actually winning the battle.

 

Fiona sold her people into slavery. Now they are fighting for their masters. Where is the 180?

 

She knows there is no way to get out of the hole. I'm saying, at that point she would only want to take Alexius down the hole with her. She has no lifeline. She has only the choice to take down the one who ruined her, or help the one who ruined her ruin the world as well.

 

You have no idea that Alexius made any such argument in the first place. It is your explanation of unseen events. The deal was to get the mages to safety first, and then once in Tevinter the mages would be recognized as servants working toward citizenship. Also, those who would be militarized would have to be properly trained first, as Alexius states in the tavern. As for the templars, Fiona knew they were in Haven. There were not blocking the way out of Ferelden. And even if they had been, the forces Alexius brought with him to keep the mages safe would have been enough to see them to Tevinter.

 

Burden of proof falls on any who make a claim. You claim the main templar force did not reach Haven. That claim requires proof. So far, all you have is, "we weren't told they made it there", and based on that you conclude they didn't make it there. That is not proof.

 

One can infer anything. I agree that the sealing happens in what appears to be the afternoon and the celebration (and following attack) happens at what appears to be night. But, how much time passed between the return from Therinfal and the sealing of the breach? Within that time alone the main force of templars could have arrived. I am replaying this now, so I will see what I can find on it and report back later. But, as I wrote before, Therinfal didn't have thousands. It probably had about 300 after all was said and done.

 

The Inquisition did not lose. Technically it was a draw, since the Herald was the one who destroyed Haven and any surrounding invaders. But that's beside the point. The point is that the only templars I'm claiming were at Haven were the ones from Therinfal (300 tops), and maybe any that felt like they should join from the nearby area like the Hinterlands. The rest of the templars of the world were not at Haven. And even if every templar in the world had been there, the red lyrium black dragon would have fried them all. The lines broke because of the presence of the dragon, not the absence of templars. In the mages path, all the rebel mages are there, yet the invading force still breaks the lines just the same.

 

So she was smart enough to do the math yet she was an idiot who believed anything? And even though she was convinced that the templars came to kill her when in fact they were going to Val Royeaux, she believed she could kill the templars even though they were marching to Haven. Let's assume that Fiona really did think Haven was undermanned. Even if her mages and the Venatori forces could take Haven, then what? They would be stuck in a frozen tundra while "thousands" of templars marched to said frozen tundra from the only safe path OUT of said frozen tundra. They would spend all night fighting a bloody battle to destroy a holy settlement, only to be cut off by an army of templars, which would then annihilate them. What would the math tell Fiona about that situation? What would Alexius tell her about it for that matter? Seems to me that the idiot would rather tell Alexius that she wanted to stay out of it like they had agreed upon in their bargain and just go to Tevinter.

 

OR... or... she fights the Venatori with her rebel mages and then makes peace with the Inquisition which can defend her from the templars. Or she goes dies fighting the Venatori. Better than dying while fighting the good guys. It would be like if ISIS got ahold of you and told you to go kill Iraqis with them or else they would kill you.

 

Okay, gameplay. But even story-wise, Fiona could barrier herself up if the Herald made a hostile move. Yes?

 

1. The Herald was still fighting. The battle is not over until he is dead or captured. And as far as battles go, the Venatori lost more than the Inquisition had. And you say Fiona can do the math. And even if things were hopeless, she should want to tie herself to the side that is morally right. 2. If the Venatori are so pro-mage, why are they sending them to die against the Inquisition? She would ally with the Inquisition because it tried to ally with her first, and because it sealed the breach, thus saving the world. 3. No, surrendering in the middle of a battle. We've seen it done in Dragon Age 2 under much more dire circumstances if Hawke sides with templars. 4. It would accomplish Fiona living to fight another day. Fight against the real enemy. She'd also be able to tell the Inquisition what happened and give them information on how to beat the Venatori. She also knows that many mages fled before this. So they would need a place to go. Smoothing things over with the Inquisition would have given them a chance.

 

Where is the 180 degree turn? She sold them into servitude in exchange for not having to battle templars. Now she is leading them in a battle against templars.

 

More later when I play the whole quest again.

[Vit246]

Enough.

The fact that you guys are debating this amount of speculation is demonstrative of Bioware's writers not thinking this through very thoroughly.

[Dai Grepher]

You can just as easily make the opposite argument. Why would the Inquisition help the Templars when they have done nothing to help them?


Exactly. 'It's not in the game so it could be true' can be used to justify absolutely anything you want.

The only evidence that Fiona is being controlled is wishful thinking, and the belief that she should have been treated as more important than Knight-Captain Denam during In Your Heart Shall Burn.

 

Was the Inquisition helping the templars? The Inquisition appealed to the templars for help in closing the breach, just as the Inquisition first appealed to the mages for help in closing the breach. Or are you suggesting the templars would want something in return? Something like... kill all mages? In that case, it would have to wait until after the breach. In which case the Inquisition could simply not uphold the deal, OR uphold it, but it would still take time to turn the army north and attack the mages.

 

I'm not using it to justify anything. My point is that you can't use it to definately rule something out.

 

The evidence so far is...

 

1. She didn't want mages fighting and dying anymore, yet in Haven they're doing exactly that and she's helping them.

 

2. She had a deal with Alexius. Upon breaking that deal, Fiona turns on Alexius in the mages path. It is logical that the same would happen in the templars path where Alexius also breaks that deal.

 

3. The chore table mission "Investigate Redcliffe Castle" confirms that A. The servants of the castle are confused and can't remember what happened, this indicating blood magic was used on them, and B. There were Venatori still in the castle performing some sort of ritual, which could have been related to blood magic.

 

4. Fiona attacks blindly in the battle in Haven. There is no dialogue or cutscene where Fiona makes her intentions or motives known.

 

5. It goes against her character to help the Venatori when it has a darkspawn as its leader "god" and a corrupted dragon.

 

LOL! You just compared Fiona to a man who had his mind being controlled by red lyrium. Care to rephrase that? And obviously Denam was too far gone to be reasoned with (or saved), and no one would have known who he was at that point anyway. Fiona still looked like herself at least.

[Master Warder Z_]

Still on the imaginary blood magic eh?

[Andromelek]

[Master Warder Z_]

Except in Kirkwall...9 times out of 10 it was blood magic, unlike what happened with Fiona

[MisterJB]

And even if things were hopeless, she should want to tie herself to the side that is morally right.

 

Fiona, who remained with Tevinter when they were occupying Redcliff, evicting anyone who was not a mage and turning Tranquils into telescope and who ignored the mage supremacists outside Redcliff who were burning people for fun is going to betray her allies when, finally, the mages are actually winning and the Inquisition, as far as anyone can tell, is about to be destroyed for no other reason than it is morally right?

 

That makes absolutely no sense.
 

[Deztyn]

Burden of proof falls on any who make a claim. You claim the main templar force did not reach Haven. That claim requires proof. So far, all you have is, "we weren't told they made it there", and based on that you conclude they didn't make it there. That is not proof.

I. Can't. Even.

I'm just going to let that sit there, unburdened by further commentary and let it speak for itself.

Was the Inquisition helping the templars? The Inquisition appealed to the templars for help in closing the breach, just as the Inquisition first appealed to the mages for help in closing the breach. Or are you suggesting the templars would want something in return? Something like... kill all mages? In that case, it would have to wait until after the breach. In which case the Inquisition could simply not uphold the deal, OR uphold it, but it would still take time to turn the army north and attack the mages.

I'm not suggesting that. You did. You insisted that the reason Fiona has no cause to fear the Templars, and thus no cause to think the Venatori are her only hope, is because she would ONLY believe the Inquisition was helping the Templars if they attacked the mages before closing the Breach.

Here:

It isn't about what the templars would address first. It's about what Fiona thinks they would do first, or what she would be told by Alexius. So the templars seal the breach first in exchange for what? The Inquisition could just dump them right afterward. It would make more sense for the Inquisition to help the templars kill the mages first if that was their plan all along like you say Alexius might have told Fiona. The templars ally with the Inquisition in exchange for help in killing the mages to prove loyalty, then they help seal the breach as repayment. That makes more sense than the templars agreeing to seal the breach first when the Inquisition has, from Fiona's perspective, done nothing for the templar order. I mean, what would Fiona think the Inquisition offered the templars to get them to cooperate?

See?

Fiona could just as easily think, "Oh noes. Once the Templars prove themselves to the Inquisition they are going to slaughter us! Better stick with Alexius!"

I'm not using it to justify anything. My point is that you can't use it to definately rule something out.

Uh-huh.

The evidence so far is...

1. She didn't want mages fighting and dying anymore, yet in Haven they're doing exactly that and she's helping them.

With the support of the rest of the Elder One's forces. It is not just Fiona's mages vs. The Templars. If it's the only way she thinks any if her mages will survive she will do what she has to. At the very least the children don't appear to be part of the army at Haven.

Corypheus was promising a new world order to Calpernia. No reason to think Fiona wouldn't buy into that as well.

2. She had a deal with Alexius. Upon breaking that deal, Fiona turns on Alexius in the mages path. It is logical that the same would happen in the templars path where Alexius also breaks that deal.

Except in the mages path she has potential allies in the Inquisition, and later her people are all being corrupted, tortured, turned into Red Lyrium farms etc.

Oh yeah, and the world is ending.

3. The chore table mission "Investigate Redcliffe Castle" confirms that A. The servants of the castle are confused and can't remember what happened, this indicating blood magic was used on them, and B. There were Venatori still in the castle performing some sort of ritual, which could have been related to blood magic.

Even if it was blood magic, It was still a) After Fiona was dead. b.) Very far from Haven, c) For entirely unknown purposes.

You want it to be proof.

It is not.

4. Fiona attacks blindly in the battle in Haven. There is no dialogue or cutscene where Fiona makes her intentions or motives known.

She's given the same narrative importance as her mage side equivalent. None. That is because the story at that point is not about Fiona or Denam. It's about saving Haven from the Elder One's forces. Dialogue or Cutscenes would detract from the story. Especially since the player's only knowledge of Fiona may be her brief appearance in Val Royeaux.

Fiona appealing to the Inquisitor in any way would serve no purpose other than to confuse the uninformed player and make them think they were wrong to choose the templars.

5. It goes against her character to help the Venatori when it has a darkspawn as its leader "god" and a corrupted dragon.

It goes against her character to give up and sit in Redcliffe wringing her hands. It goes against her character to sell her people into slavery. This is not the Fiona from the books. This is a tired old woman broken by the weight of the Rebellion, desperately clinging to whatever shred of hope that remains that she can spare some of her people from the consequences of her idiocy.

LOL! You just compared Fiona to a man who had his mind being controlled by red lyrium. Care to rephrase that? And obviously Denam was too far gone to be reasoned with (or saved), and no one would have known who he was at that point anyway. Fiona still looked like herself at least.

Varric: Point. Missing it.

No rephrasing required. It has nothing to do with either's mental state. It's about the writer's decision to create a stronger narrative by not introducing new characters just to quickly die. While also keeping a certain symmetry between the importance of equivalent characters no matter which faction you choose.

Still on the imaginary blood magic eh?

Imaginary long distance time traveling blood magic!

[Dai Grepher]

Still on the imaginary blood magic eh?

 

Well it's more likely than the theory that the Venatori in the lower chambers of Redcliffe castle put Fiona through brain surgery after being sent highly advanced medical technology from a futuristic race of sentient baboons who discovered Alexius' time amulet sealed within a bunch of living bananas that were preserved throughout the ages by...

 

Spoiler

blood magic.

 

Occam's Razor demands I cut right to the chase.

[Dai Grepher]

Fiona, who remained with Tevinter when they were occupying Redcliff, evicting anyone who was not a mage and turning Tranquils into telescope and who ignored the mage supremacists outside Redcliff who were burning people for fun is going to betray her allies when, finally, the mages are actually winning and the Inquisition, as far as anyone can tell, is about to be destroyed for no other reason than it is morally right?

 

That makes absolutely no sense.
 

 

First of all... what the heck do you keep doing to make hyperlinks randomly appear in your posts?

 

Next, Fiona didn't think they were occupying Redcliffe. She believed they would all be LEAVING Redcliffe for Tevinter soon.

 

Alexius evicted Teagan so that he would turn the crown against the rebel mages.

 

Fiona didn't know about the tranquil being murdered to make occularum.

 

She ignored mage supremacists because the rebel mages were not mage supremacists, nor did she have the means to fight them, nor would she want to. Let the templar supremacists fight and die against them.

 

Alexius and the Venatori were not her allies. I thought we established that already.

 

The mages weren't winning. Most of them just got crushed in an avalanche. And the Herald was still on the field. Victory was far from assured.

 

Yes, she would side with the losers and die a loser if it meant dying morally. She did it in the mages path. She turned on Alexius, learned of the Elder One, thought that he was more powerful than the Maker, and yet she still sided against him, which is how she ended up in that cell with red lyrium growing out of her.

[Master Warder Z_]

Imaginary long distance time traveling blood magic!

 

This by itself is worth a like

[thesuperdarkone2]

Imagine if Gaider finally did confirm the blood magic