601 réponses à ce sujet

[Boomshakalakalakaboom]

And I would point out that it was someone on the "Fiona is a willing idiot" side who admitting to using those substances.

Lol.

I don't think that was what Warder was getting at.

[Andromelek]

Just like the stupid waste of matter she bred, she is just incapable to lead, she would likely complain but without doing anything about that, plus, Alexius himself doesn't seem like someone who practices blood magic, Dorian would point out something like that, even if he learned to use it during his alliance with the Venatori, he wouldn't be good enough to brainwash all mages, the Venatori on Redcliffe couldn't do that either, a ritual of that size would require a great amount of blood, something that would be so obvious that no one here would ignore, the only deads were the tranquil but they were bones already and the mages weren't brainwashed by then.

So, in resume:

Fiona is stupid, stupids with power will always screw it and lose, stupids that are losing will fear, stupids with fear seek someone to protect them and stupids following orders won't care about them.

Only ask yourself, why someone would waste some time on brainwashing a lot of sheeps when the shepherd itself is dumb enough to be fooled with words?

[Master Warder Z_]

Lol.

I don't think that was what Warder was getting at.

Indeed

[LOLandStuff]

You people still at it? Must be blood magic.

[Dai Grepher]

Just like the stupid waste of matter she bred, she is just incapable to lead, she would likely complain but without doing anything about that, plus, Alexius himself doesn't seem like someone who practices blood magic, Dorian would point out something like that, even if he learned to use it during his alliance with the Venatori, he wouldn't be good enough to brainwash all mages, the Venatori on Redcliffe couldn't do that either, a ritual of that size would require a great amount of blood, something that would be so obvious that no one here would ignore, the only deads were the tranquil but they were bones already and the mages weren't brainwashed by then.

So, in resume:

Fiona is stupid, stupids with power will always screw it and lose, stupids that are losing will fear, stupids with fear seek someone to protect them and stupids following orders won't care about them.

Only ask yourself, why someone would waste some time on brainwashing a lot of sheeps when the shepherd itself is dumb enough to be fooled with words?

 

She did something about it in the bad future, therefore she would do something about that.

 

I doubt it was Alexius, but it doesn't have to be he who used it, just any nameless Venatori bloodmage. It could have been Calpernia, though she doesn't strike me as a bloodmage either. But it could have been any Venatori mage who mind controlled Fiona.

 

Dorian only said that the rebel mages who did not join the Venatori were either killed or fled. So I personally don't think anyone was being controlled there except Fiona. But if any other mages were, it would only take one bloodmage per unwilling rebel mage. So it wouldn't require a large ritual or any large amount of blood.

 

To use them to die as pawns against their enemies. My bloodmage in DA:O took control of plenty of stupid enemies to use them as pawns against his other enemies. And I think the point my side is making is that Fiona wasn't stupid enough to willingly go along with the Venatori. She turned on Alexius in the mages path. No reason to think she wouldn't in the templars path when it's the same revelation and the same situation.

[Master Warder Z_]

*snorts*

This is just sad

[TK514]

*snorts*

This is just sad

Yup.

[Deztyn]

Not worth the time and effort it takes to respond.

What little faith I had left in his ability to see sense evaporated around the time he tried to argue the Venatori never researched any sort of time magic outside of the bad future.

Maybe that was blood magic too?

[Dai Grepher]

Now now Deztyn, you know perfectly well that you weren't talking about anything in the Western Approach when you made the point about time magic.

 

 Tell me, have you considered that the people in Redcliffe Castle--the place where Alexius was experimenting with localized time-travel magic-- maybe, just maybe, have conflicting memories of events because they actually experienced different events?

 

My reply was that Alexius didn't conduct any time travel experiments in Redcliffe except in the bad future, which his notes from the bad future show. I never wrote that the Venatori never researched time magic outside of Redcliffe. That wasn't even the topic of discussion.

 

And actually, for the record, that situation in the Still Ruins was indeed blood magic too. It was time magic, and it was blood magic, which we see because of all the blood in the air affecting the demons as well as in the main chamber.

[Deztyn]

Maker's Holy Hairy Balls, must everything be spelled out for you?

The note I linked is only available if you chose the Templars, it says, "Alexius failed" it goes on to say that it makes the work of the Venatori in the Still Ruins "all the more vital" and to "secure the ruins"

Templar side only=No dark future=Mages are successfully recruited into the Venatori

Which means,

Alexius failed=Alexius failed to produce the time travel effects Cory wants=Alexius researched time magic

Which means,

Work in the ruins=Continuing the research of Breach time magic

Taken all together, that means Alexius failed with his time travel experiments (many of which happen in Redcliffe, where he's been almost since the Breach opened, unless you think he also teleports) and other Venatori are trying to study time magic to work out where he went wrong.

The point there was not "time magic was used in Redcliffe" which is obvious since that's how he got there first.

The point was other people are continuing the work he started.

Oh, and for the record, since reading comprehension is clearly not your strong suit, the blood magic comment meant "Do you think that they were there to study blood magic?/ Do you think Alexius failed at Blood magic?"

So.

Do you?

[TK514]

It is clear to me that the meaning of the note is that Alexius failed at delicious Baked Goods magic.  I mean, no where in the game does it mention he WASN'T attempting to develop Baked Goods magic, therefore that must be it.  Furthermore, Thedas is a lesser place for his failure to perfect a spell worthy of conjuring "Corypehus Brand Cookies:  Simply Divine"

[Kakistos_]

What Dai Grepher said. The facts and evidence Sifr and Dai Grepher laid out as such are hard to argue against unless you ignore them. I'm curious. For all of you that deem Fiona incompetent for wanting to go to Tevinter and end the conflict, what would you have done in her stead? What is the smart option that she failed to notice?

[TK514]

Wow, I don't know.  What could she have possibly done, with royal protection and the hospitality of the most defensible fortress in southern Thedas?

 

Sit tight?  Wait and assess the situation, then offer the mages' assistance in closing the Breach through proper channels?  Actually protect the Tranquil from the very beginning?  Send out some scouts of her own to confirm or debunk an easily checked story before selling her people into slavery?  Anything that didn't involve allowing the self-proclaimed emissaries of a hostile foreign power to take over sovereign Ferelden Territory?

 

The non-idiotic possibilities are numerous and wide ranging.

[Deztyn]

For the record, wanting to go to Tevinter is not idiotic on it's own. Ill-advised, but not entirely stupid.

The stupid is spurning Ferelden's hospitality, aiding one of their enemies and selling her people into slavery because she couldn't fact-check.

[Dean_the_Young]

What Dai Grepher said. The facts and evidence Sifr and Dai Grepher laid out as such are hard to argue against unless you ignore them. I'm curious. For all of you that deem Fiona incompetent for wanting to go to Tevinter and end the conflict, what would you have done in her stead? What is the smart option that she failed to notice?

 

Well, to start with, it's a bad idea to declare a war of independence with a hostile army outside your door ready to kill you. Especially when you don't have a plan of how to fight or win said war, no clear end-state, and no patrons/allies to help secure your gains and protect your interests. Or is that going back too far?

 

Even apart from the merits of the rebellion, the rebellion itself was inept. It's not fair to say it was poorly planned- there's no evidence that there was a plan past 'Vote for Independence', '**** the Divine,' '???', 'FREEDOM!' Personally, I'd start there myself.

 

But, if we're going to stick to Inquistion-

 

-Sending emisionaries to the Inquisition even after 'I want you to be my slaves' shows up

-Sending scouts to confirm the alleged army reported by mr 'I want you to be my slaves'

-Clearing out the maleficar right outside the gates, so that the kingdom of Ferelden would be compelled to defend (and thus intervene in favor of protecting mages) Redcliffe from renegade Templars

-Not betraying the premise of a revolution of 'better free than safe' by selling freedom for the safety of slavery

-Hiding with the Arl in Redcliffe Castle, one of the most defensible positions in Southern Thedas that could hold out against a siege the Templars aren't capable of launching

-Turning on the Magister when he outs the Arl

-Fleeing Redcliffe with the Arl, since he clearly has a way back to east (which would also have, you know, ships to Tevinter if that was the goal)

 

 

I could go on, if you'd like.

[MisterJB]

 

Really, why does Fiona say "Either my people made a last stand here or we took the only offer of help extended to us" when the very reason she had been within Redcliff for the past six months is due to Ferelden extending help?
Anora's codex even says she made an impassioned speech in front of the nobility in defense of the mages.

[thesuperdarkone2]

[quote name="MisterJB" post="19538498" timestamp="1439257296"]



Really, why does Fiona say "Either my people made a last stand here or we took the only offer of help extended to us" when the very reason she had been within Redcliff for the past six months is due to Ferelden extending help?
Anora's codex even says she made an impassioned speech in front of the nobility in defense of the mages.[/quote
Because the devs needs a reason to make people consider going to the Templars despite Lucius essentially telling you off

[Dai Grepher]

Maker's Holy Hairy Balls, must everything be spelled out for you?

The note I linked is only available if you chose the Templars, it says, "Alexius failed" it goes on to say that it makes the work of the Venatori in the Still Ruins "all the more vital" and to "secure the ruins"

Templar side only=No dark future=Mages are successfully recruited into the Venatori

Which means,

Alexius failed=Alexius failed to produce the time travel effects Cory wants=Alexius researched time magic

Which means,

Work in the ruins=Continuing the research of Breach time magic

Taken all together, that means Alexius failed with his time travel experiments (many of which happen in Redcliffe, where he's been almost since the Breach opened, unless you think he also teleports) and other Venatori are trying to study time magic to work out where he went wrong.

The point there was not "time magic was used in Redcliffe" which is obvious since that's how he got there first.

The point was other people are continuing the work he started.

Oh, and for the record, since reading comprehension is clearly not your strong suit, the blood magic comment meant "Do you think that they were there to study blood magic?/ Do you think Alexius failed at Blood magic?"

So.

Do you?

 

Come on Deztyn. If it had been a simple matter of me not understanding your point, then you would have clarified it and presented that new evidence about the Still Ruins. But you wrote nothing about the Still Ruins in the post I replied to, which was about Redcliffe. Then you posted, "What little faith I had left in his ability to see sense evaporated around the time he tried to argue the Venatori never researched any sort of time magic outside of the bad future."

 

And you know I never wrote that they didn't research time magic outside the bad future. You're accusing me of dismissing evidence you hadn't posted yet. Talk about time magic.

 

Admit it, you were in error. Just like how I was in error when I wrote that your side was arguing that the templars would go after Fiona before sealing the breach. I can admit it when I make a mistake. Can you?

 

Now on to your post about the Still Ruins. Servis' note does not state that Alexius conducted time travel experiments in Redcliffe. Remember, the issue here is how the Redcliffe servants lost their memory. Alexius did not use time magic in Redcliffe Castle. He only uses it if the Herald goes there.

 

Servis only writes that Alexius failed. That does not indicate anything about time magic. It could be that Alexius failed to lure the Herald to Redcliffe Castle. Or it could be that Alexius' plan to go back in time to hijack the mage rebellion failed to produce any results that pleased Corypheus. Or it could be that Alexius didn't use the time magic because the Herald never showed up. Or it could very well be that Alexius tried to use the time magic to go back in time and stop the Herald from getting the anchor. But even in that case, we're talking about the servants of Redcliffe and why their accounts are confused or inaccurate. So if Servis is referring to Alexius failure in mastering time magic, then it's irrelevant to this issue, which is about why the servants can't remember. You're taking a simple statement that Alexius failed, and then you're reading into it to explain a situation about something completely unrelated.

 

Alexius was forced out by Ferelden's crown as the Herald was passing by on the way to Therinfal. Alexius had no time to use time magic, ironically. And those who Krem found in Redcliffe Castle's lower chambers were random Venatori, not Alexius. So any experiments he would have conducted would have taken place on the road out of Ferelden.

 

Time magic is how Alexius was able to approach the mages before the Inquisition could. But Alexius did not use this time magic inside Redcliffe. He used it to go back to just after the conclave was destroyed, and he showed up during some point when it was believed templars were going to storm Redcliffe. Fiona states that mages started coming to them from all over, most of them strangers. She didn't know some were Tevinter. Those strangers spread whispers and talk of an alliance with Tevinter. So it seems Alexius either directed this slow trickle of mages into Redcliffe, or that had been going on for a while, and then Alexius showed up right before Fiona was set to leave for Val Royeaux to approach the Inquisition. But whatever the case, Alexius did not appear in Redcliffe via time magic.

 

I don't know if Alexius created that. Vivienne states that many have tried using magic to control time and none have ever succeeded. The Still Ruins had been there for some time. Regardless of who started the research, the Still Ruins research is what Servis was continuing, not Alexius'.

 

Oh, how polite of you to clarify for this simple fool. No I don't think they were there to study blood magic. They were there to get the time magic research. But that has nothing to do with Alexius' "failure", whichever failure that was.

[Sunnie]

[Dai Grepher]

What Dai Grepher said. The facts and evidence Sifr and Dai Grepher laid out as such are hard to argue against unless you ignore them. I'm curious. For all of you that deem Fiona incompetent for wanting to go to Tevinter and end the conflict, what would you have done in her stead? What is the smart option that she failed to notice?

 

Thanks. Yours is a good question.

 

As one who hates Fiona for fair-minded reasons, I first have to point out that we should all consider Fiona's situation. Allegedly, she wanted to go to Val Royeaux and seek out the Inquisition as allies. That is, if that was the real Fiona there. Assuming it was, then Fiona was actually pretty smart in this case.

 

Now we get to the tavern. She has sworn allegiance to Alexius because time magic allowed him to manipulate the situation. From Fiona's perspective, mages had arrived in Redcliffe pushing for an alliance with Tevinter, Arl Wulff was also advocating for that. And then at some point she was utterly convinced that templars were coming to kill them all, and only Alexius' arrival had averted it. Maybe she actually saw this, or maybe she didn't and trusted advisors told her. Whatever.

 

At this point I, as Fiona, would have thanked them for their help, but I would have still declined to join them. I would stick with Arl Teagan and rely on him and his soldiers to protect Redcliffe.

 

Now, maybe she actually did this. And maybe this is why Alexius forced Teagan out. Who knows? We never get an explanation. But assuming Alexius did oust Teagan at this point, and thus Fiona had no Ferelden allies, then as Fiona I would have tried to patch things up with the crown by sending a letter explaining what happened and how I had nothing to do with Teagan's ousting. But lets say this failed, like my messages got intercepted.

 

Lets say the alliance with Tevinter seemed like the only option. If I don't pledge loyalty to Alexius, then he will leave and my people will be killed. Okay. But then the Inquisition shows up and tells me that I invited them there back in Val Royeaux. Now something's fishy here. I was going to go to Val Royeaux to seek the Inquisition's help... so... well whatever, the situation has changed. I'm now indentured to Alexius.

 

But here's the thing... I'm really not. Now that the Inquisition is here, I can better-deal Alexius, and just break my alliance with him. That might seem like poor form, even among those in the Inquisition. What good is her loyalty if she can break a pledge so easily? But hey, the Inquisition is desperate too because they need to seal the breach.

 

So that's what I would have done.

 

Past this point, Fiona gets dragged to the castle because of Felix. At some point Felix can meet with the Herald, so I don't see why Fiona couldn't as well.

 

Then assuming the Herald goes to Therinfal and the crown shows up to evict the mages, I could try to appeal to the monarch(s). If that fails, then it's off to Tevinter...

 

Until Alexius betrays me and tells me it was all about joining the Venatori and exalting the Elder One. At which point I turn on him, lose, then get hit with blood magic.

 

Then I get pwned in Haven. The end.
 

So all in all, Fiona was dumb, but not as dumb as some are saying. A lot of what happened to her was completely out of her hands. This is especially true if the Herald doesn't even bother going to Redcliffe to meet with the rebel mages at all.

[Dai Grepher]

Wow, I don't know.  What could she have possibly done, with royal protection and the hospitality of the most defensible fortress in southern Thedas?

 

Sit tight?  Wait and assess the situation, then offer the mages' assistance in closing the Breach through proper channels?  Actually protect the Tranquil from the very beginning?  Send out some scouts of her own to confirm or debunk an easily checked story before selling her people into slavery?  Anything that didn't involve allowing the self-proclaimed emissaries of a hostile foreign power to take over sovereign Ferelden Territory?

 

The non-idiotic possibilities are numerous and wide ranging.

 

The problem is that we don't see what her exact situation was.

 

What if Lord Seeker Lucius was marching on her with a bunch of templars? And what if she saw this? And what if she saw Alexius show up with his people and turn the templars away?

 

Also, lets not forget that Arl Teagan was supposed to have been helping her. Why couldn't he confirm any of the things you're demanding she confirm? Then again, Teagan may have been putting out little fires of his own. Arl Wulff was unknowingly helping the Venatori. Maybe Teagan was busy sorting things out with Wulff. And where was the Ferelden crown in all this? Why couldn't they assist? Well, in my worldstate Queen Anora was busy keeping peace with the many other arls and banns, and the Hero King is off on a secret quest.

 

So really, was Fiona to blame for all of it? And what about all the other mages? They could have said, forget Tevinter, I'm out. And left to join the Inquisition as so many other mages had already done.

 

And how do you know Fiona let Alexius oust Teagan? How did she play any part in that?

[Dai Grepher]

For the record, wanting to go to Tevinter is not idiotic on it's own. Ill-advised, but not entirely stupid.

The stupid is spurning Ferelden's hospitality, aiding one of their enemies and selling her people into slavery because she couldn't fact-check.

 

How did she spurn Ferelden's hospitality? Did she oust Teagan? And the only way to get to Tevinter would have been slavery. So if you don't think it was entirely stupid, then this shouldn't be a point against her.

[Fizzie Panda]

Not sure if on topic or not but..

 

I LOVED it when Vivienne said "Fiona, your dementia is showing"

 

I crack up every time.

[TK514]

Thanks. Yours is a good question.

 

As one who hates Fiona for fair-minded reasons, I first have to point out that we should all consider Fiona's situation. Allegedly, she wanted to go to Val Royeaux and seek out the Inquisition as allies. That is, if that was the real Fiona there. Assuming it was, then Fiona was actually pretty smart in this case.

 

Now we get to the tavern. She has sworn allegiance to Alexius because time magic allowed him to manipulate the situation. From Fiona's perspective, mages had arrived in Redcliffe pushing for an alliance with Tevinter, Arl Wulff was also advocating for that. And then at some point she was utterly convinced that templars were coming to kill them all, and only Alexius' arrival had averted it. Maybe she actually saw this, or maybe she didn't and trusted advisors told her. Whatever.

 

At this point I, as Fiona, would have thanked them for their help, but I would have still declined to join them. I would stick with Arl Teagan and rely on him and his soldiers to protect Redcliffe.

 

Now, maybe she actually did this. And maybe this is why Alexius forced Teagan out. Who knows? We never get an explanation. But assuming Alexius did oust Teagan at this point, and thus Fiona had no Ferelden allies. As Fiona, I would have tried to patch things up with the crown by sending a letter explaining what happened, and how I had nothing to do with Teagan's ousting. But lets say this failed, like my messages got intercepted.

 

Lets say the alliance with Tevinter seemed like the only option. If I don't pledge loyalty to Alexius, then he will leave and my people will be killed. Okay. But then the Inquisition shows up and tells me that I invited them there back in Val Royeaux. Now something's fishy here. I was going to go to Val Royeaux to seek the Inquisition's help... so... well whatever, the situation has changed. I'm now indentured to Alexius.

 

But here's the thing... I'm really not. Now that the Inquisition is here, I can better-deal Alexius, and just break my alliance with him. That might seem like poor form, even among those in the Inquisition. What good is her loyalty if she can break a pledge so easily? But hey, the Inquisition is desperate too because they need to seal the breach.

 

So that's what I would have done.

 

Past this point, Fiona gets dragged to the castle because of Felix. At some point Felix can meet with the Herald, so I don't see why Fiona couldn't as well.

 

Then assuming the Herald goes to Therinfal and the crown shows up to evict the mages, I could try to appeal to the monarch(s). If that fails, then it's off to Tevinter...

 

Until Alexius betrays me and tells me it was all about joining the Venatori and exalting the Elder One. At which point I turn on him, lose, then get hit with blood magic.

 

Then I get pwned in Haven. The end.
 

So all in all, Fiona was dumb, but not as dumb as some are saying. A lot of what happened to her was completely out of her hands. This is especially true if the Herald doesn't even bother going to Redcliffe to meet with the rebel mages at all.

 

If you require this much 'what if' to even bring your position onto the same map as 'reasonable', maybe your position should be reconsidered.  You have nothing to support any of this, in game or out.  This is pure, uncut headcanon.

[Master Warder Z_]

If you require this much 'what if' to even bring your position onto the same map as 'reasonable', maybe your position should be reconsidered. You have nothing to support any of this, in game or out. This is pure, uncut headcanon.

Pure Uncut Bolivian Headcanon!