601 réponses à ce sujet

[Deztyn]

With the templars, this was actually first game in the trilogy that I felt it was finally equally justifiable to side with either the mages or templars. Which was something I appreciated, given that I thought "the mage choice" was much too easy a choice to make in the previous ones.

In Origins, it's perfectly justifiable to side with Templars when Role-playing. You may have already seen what's happened to Redcliffe, and that was just one child abomination.

The problem was that there was no downside to saving the Circle. Cullen will rant about the mages possibly having demons inside them, Irving will even agree that it's possible, but nothing ever comes of it. It's a total win. Siding with the Templars, innocent mages are slaughtered after all the bad ones are already taken out. Nothing is gained... And as a result the Templars look like reactionary a**holes.

So it's too easy to dismiss the threat from a player perspective because we know that nothing bad actually happens.

In Kirkwall it was extremes at either end, but most of the problem mages from the Circle were victims of abuse. The ones outside the Circle were such extraordinary personalities that they couldn't be considered representative of mages as a whole. So again, too easy for players to dismiss the very real threat of magic ungoverned.

I've loved the Templars from the beginning anyway. The reasons are there. But I can see why it's not as clear to everyone else how superior they are.

With the elves, I can't help but feel that at times it seems like Bioware regrets the amount of people that saw the elves as innocent victims, and was specifically trying to undo that perception in DAI. But ended up going so far in that direction that it came across sort of like they implying the persecuted minority deserved it.

Same deal as the mages really.

The reasons to hate the dirty knife-ears elves were all there in the first game, but got ignored so they swung the pendulum too far the other way.

[Vit246]

Lately Bioware seems to be experimenting with grey morality so that stuff like elves and mages are not seen too much as innocent victims, but if you ask me, they seem to be trying to make everything grey for the sake of grey. Even if they might not make sense.

[The Baconer]

In Origins, it's perfectly justifiable to side with Templars when Role-playing. You may have already seen what's happened to Redcliffe, and that was just one child abomination.

The problem was that there was no downside to saving the Circle. Cullen will rant about the mages possibly having demons inside them, Irving will even agree that it's possible, but nothing ever comes of it. It's a total win. Siding with the Templars, innocent mages are slaughtered after all the bad ones are already taken out. Nothing is gained... And as a result the Templars look like reactionary a**holes.

So it's too easy to dismiss the threat from a player perspective because we know that nothing bad actually happens.

 

I don't even think it's a choice of "siding" with the mages or the Templars in Origins. The choice to take more drastic steps in regaining control depends entirely on the player's ability to stop Uldred from creating more abominations. If you use the Litany effectively, the surviving mages are saved, with Annulment or other stringent measures being deemed unnecessary. The only one who seems dissatisfied with this outcome is Cullen himself, and he certainly doesn't speak for every Templar, most notably his own Knight Commander. There isn't really a side being picked here - we just encountered a problem and resolved it so the institution could return to its regular function. Overall, this is the most preferable outcome for all the parties involved.

[Jedi Master of Orion]

Yeah saving the mages in Origins is basically doing exactly what the Knight Commander asks you to do, so it's not siding against the Templars at all. And for that reason it's basically Cullen's rantings vs Gregoire. And leaving it up to him just defaults to saving the mages. And honestly, Cullen is understandably traumatized so his reasoning comes across as both prejudiced and paranoid. He even says they could be secretly blood mages as if they could be forcibly turned into one the same way they could be turned into abominations. Now that I know more about Dragon Age lore, his fears seem even less plausible than they did at the time. It just came across like a blanket fear of magic rather than any concrete threat he was aware of.

 

My biggest problem with the decision in DA 2 though was that, I'm even sympathetic to the templar perspective and I still found it just about impossible to justify siding with Meredith over Orsino. Because the dilemma I was faced with wasn't about whether magic should be governed or about the larger question of freedom at all. It was about a bunch of people being executed by a literal madwoman for an unrelated crime committed by someone who wasn't even a part of it. Even if Bethany hadn't been a Circle Mage in my first playthrough, that would have been no way for my Hawke to see that as the right decision. I made a subsequent version of Hawke sided with the templars on the basis that the decision was taken out of his hands by Anders and Meredith, but that also required that one Hawke to be very pessimistic about his ability to make a difference.

 

Even in DAI I think the Mage mission made a slightly better case for itself. In Redcliffe you get to see all the people there who are begging for your help to save the from the Imperium and the with the templars the only direct conversation you have with any of them is their leader who is openly hostile towards you and your cause and clearly acting like a villain. Fortunately the templars do finally get to show off their heroes if you do side with them, but it's still something you sort of have to assume will be there before doing Champions of the Just.

[Dai Grepher]

I don't even think it's a choice of "siding" with the mages or the Templars in Origins. The choice to take more drastic steps in regaining control depends entirely on the player's ability to stop Uldred from creating more abominations. If you use the Litany effectively, the surviving mages are saved, with Annulment or other stringent measures being deemed unnecessary. The only one who seems dissatisfied with this outcome is Cullen himself, and he certainly doesn't speak for every Templar, most notably his own Knight Commander. There isn't really a side being picked here - we just encountered a problem and resolved it so the institution could return to its regular function. Overall, this is the most preferable outcome for all the parties involved.

 

I would agree that it isn't a mages vs. templars deal, but I do think it's a case of either siding with the mages or against them. After all, the first group you run into in the Circle after you're sealed in is a group of mages. You can either choose to side with them or against them. The next group of mages you encounter are hostile ones, and the lone survivor pleads for mercy. Again, you can side with her or against her. Next is Nieal, whom you can be sympathetic toward or not. There's also that guy who hides in the closet. Depending on the situation, you can say you'll report him to the Knight-Commander for lyrium smuggling. And then there's the boss battle, where you can choose to use the litany to save Irving or not.

[Dai Grepher]

The best thing is just to kill her and leave her body buried under tons of snow, forgotten like the unimportant maggot that she is.

 

BioWare will say that what was killed in Haven was just an envy demon that also impersonated her in Val Royeaux. Because Alistair's "mom" must live.

[Deztyn]

'Siding with the Templars' was poor wording. I admit. The point remains that the option to press for annulment, even when Irving is saved, is a reasonable choice given your knowledge in game, made clearly wrong by the lack of negative consequences.

[Nerevar-as]

People treated like dirt, oppressed and with severe restricted rights because of something they might do grow bitter and lash out and want to be treated as everyone else. How dare they! Yay, freedom. How little it matters when is not one´s own.

 

And why on Thedas isn´t every noble caged into a castle and stripped of power? Gaspard and Celene are responsible for more deaths than any mage excluding the old magisters for their bs squabbles. But because they are not mages it´s ok?

[TheKomandorShepard]

People treated like dirt, oppressed and with severe restricted rights because of something they might do grow bitter and lash out and want to be treated as everyone else. How dare they! Yay, freedom. How little it matters when is not one´s own.

 

And why on Thedas isn´t every noble caged into a castle and stripped of power? Gaspard and Celene are responsible for more deaths than any mage excluding the old magisters for their bs squabbles. But because they are not mages it´s ok?

Oh they can fight no one forbids them just they shouldn't expect that thedas will watch as they endanger it.

 

Well i still have to see noble or just normal person trying destroy whole world and having means to do so what mages almost acomplished few times.Avoiding nobles operate on armies while mage operates on individual unpredictable power.    

[Nerevar-as]

I'm sure all the dead, pillaged and so on really appreciate the difference. But hey, anyone can wield a sword, so magic is worse because you can't use it.

No mage has tried to destroy the world, blights are a consequence of trying to become gods. Only greatest screw up was likely the idiot who made up the qun. Still, how do we go from not having magocracies to spending their lives in a building and not allowed to form families? And that's just for starters.

[Ieldra]

Why is Fiona so lame in DAI? Over-compensation perhaps? I never hated her like other people did, but she did have some "Writer's pet" issues in the books. Bioware tends to over-compensate in such things. Too bad really, A leader of the mage rebellion should have some leadership qualities. She should also not agree to a contract that's worse than what the mages wanted to escape in the first place. I tend to blame outside mental influences for her behaviour while Alexius is alive, but she's singularly unimpressive, compared to her appearance in the books, everywhere else as well. Really, too bad. 

[Master Warder Z_]

I wonder if that imaginary note will be mentioned here

[TheKomandorShepard]

I'm sure all the dead, pillaged and so on really appreciate the difference. But hey, anyone can wield a sword, so magic is worse because you can't use it.

No mage has tried to destroy the world, blights are a consequence of trying to become gods. Only greatest screw up was likely the idiot who made up the qun. Still, how do we go from not having magocracies to spending their lives in a building and not allowed to form families? And that's just for starters.

Grab the sword and you will kill few people a dozen at best before they will put you down , cause magical disaster entire nation or even world can be in danger because of action of 1 person pretty much large difference.

 

False and pro-mage propaganda blights were caused by mages using their magic to get to place they shouldn't because they wanted to become gods , then the same mage tried to do that again and once again caused disaster that was danger for entire world and then he did it thrid time just because he was pissed off somone foiled their plans. And then we have qunari mage that tried to destroy world by destroying veil and bring army of demons so it would destroy world.After that we have tevinter magister that wanted brainwash entire world to become his slaves.  

 

And we got there so there is no more "magocracies" simple .

[Boomshakalakalakaboom]

spending their lives in a building

Im sure they're let out for exercise.

[Master Warder Z_]

Im sure they're let out for exercise.

Heh

Of course! They need recreation time

Then back to their tower stuffed with food, wine, friends and teachers they go!

Honestly the circles sounded more like luxury universities more then quarantine

[TK514]

I wonder if that imaginary note will be mentioned here

 

Still waiting.

[Boomshakalakalakaboom]

Heh

Of course! They need recreation time

Then back to their tower stuffed with food, wine, friends and teachers they go!

Honestly the circles sounded more like luxury universities more then quarantine

Well, 90% of the circles but pretty much.

I hold more sympathy for all the starving children in Thedas.

They all died off you know.... That's why there aren't any in DAI.

[The Oracle]

Grab the sword and you will kill few people a dozen at best before they will put you down , cause magical disaster entire nation or even world can be in danger because of action of 1 person pretty much large difference.

 

False and pro-mage propaganda blights were caused by mages using their magic to get to place they shouldn't because they wanted to become gods , then the same mage tried to do that again and once again caused disaster that was danger for entire world and then he did it thrid time just because he was pissed off somone foiled their plans. And then we have qunari mage that tried to destroy world by destroying veil and bring army of demons so it would destroy world.After that we have tevinter magister that wanted brainwash entire world to become his slaves.  

 

And we got there so there is no more "magocracies" simple .

 

These kind of excuses are similar to the ones I often hear in the real world from people saying that all Muslims should be forced to leave our country because they could be terrorists. That blanket excuse that, because a few do evil, all those associated must also be tempted to do so. Which is, of course utterly ridiculous. It takes absolutely no account of the individual. How many, I wonder, were killed by Exalted Marches, ordered by the word of one person sat in a position of power?

 

I would also note that a single Mage is not as powerful as you make out. Anders had to resort to alchemy, not magic, to destroy the Chantry. The Magisters had to sacrifice thousands for enough power to breach the Veil. It's only due to the Orb that Corypheus found and had the knowledge to wield, that he torn the Veil and destroyed Thedas. I severely doubt 99.999% of the mages ever born in Thedas could unlock the power and wouldn't just keep it as a paperweight.

 

There are always going to be people who would use their power for evil, be it money, rank, magic or brute force. And there will always be the 90% who wouldn't. Should all Templars be classed as abusive rapists because a number of their order abused their power over Mages and the Tranquil? No. Because it doesn't account for the individual. Should all Mages be kept locked away and shunned from the outside world because of the few who used their magic for their own means? No, of course not.

[Nerevar-as]

Spend twenty years without getting out of your block watched by the police 24/7 and then you can talk about it. No sex allowed, btw. No visits from or to your family. No family of your own. Enjoy yourself and rejoice people outside feel safer because you can't grab a gun in the supermarket and start shooting them. Anybody who knows, how do gun control laws compare to mage restrictions?

Anyway, arguments about how mages are more dangerous than normals are weird just looking at any period of human history. Yet some of the people with more blood on their hands are quite admired, I guess is a matter of saying you are doing it for some higher cause instead of admitting your ego is the size of Mt Everest.

Ieldra, I thought Alexius was using blood magic on her, as she acted awkward and was the most logical explanation to making such a stupid choice. They were under the protection of the fereldan crown, it's not like it was a do or die moment. But no, just standard bad writing to move the plot. Have to wonder the point of the mage-templar conflict if instead of working things out or failing to, it just got swept by a conflict between other factions. In a generation they are likely to be back at square one.

[Master Warder Z_]

Well, 90% of the circles but pretty much.

I hold more sympathy for all the starving children in Thedas.

They all died off you know.... That's why there aren't any in DAI.

 

Makes more sense then other theories I've heard.

[Boomshakalakalakaboom]

Makes more sense then other theories I've heard.

Those kids would have loved to of lived in one of those circles!

Roof over their heads, three good meals a day (snacks may also be included), warm baths, comfy beds with plenty of blankets, setting fires in a controlled environment....

Much better then the crappy conditions they had to live in.

[Andromelek]

You say that Fiona was being controlled with blood magic? Because that's not what happened, the only thing Alexius did was travel on time and send some Venatori as infiltrates, kind of awkward the ease which they had to put the idea of Tevinter slaves on their little head.

About the danger that suppose the mages, well, excluding dreamers, none of them will be really successful as terrorist without some training, someone with enough political or military power, or some expert assassin can be the same trouble for world, and I think technology is more dangerous than magic, because it's accessible for every sucker in the world, the only thing that the mages really may hate of the Circle is that you can be condemned to tranquility without previous warning.

[The Oracle]

Those kids would have loved to of lived in one of those circles!

Roof over their heads, three good meals a day (snacks may also be included), warm baths, comfy beds with plenty of blankets, setting fires in a controlled environment....

Much better then the crappy conditions they had to live in.

 

True. They may also have preferred slavery. At least then you get to eat, right? Roof over your head, some place to sleep. 

 

I mean, the circle sounds great. Except if your scared or not particularly good at magic. Then you're made tranquil due to you being a possibility for possession. Or killed. Bet they'd love that too.

 

Just because there is something worse, doesn't inherently make the other things better. 

[Master Warder Z_]

Those kids would have loved to of lived in one of those circles!

Roof over their heads, three good meals a day (snacks may also be included), warm baths, comfy beds with plenty of blankets, setting fires in a controlled environment....

Much better then the crappy conditions they had to live in.

 

Grass is always greener I do believe the saying is.

 

Hence why you had such division among mages regarding the rebellion; A good deal of them found the circle a tolerable enough existence if not a preferable one to alternatives.

[Nerevar-as]

You say that Fiona was being controlled with blood magic? Because that's not what happened, the only thing Alexius did was travel on time and send some Venatori as infiltrates, kind of awkward the ease which they had to put the idea of Tevinter slaves on their little head.

About the danger that suppose the mages, well, excluding dreamers, none of them will be really successful as terrorist without some training, someone with enough political or military power, or some expert assassin can be the same trouble for world, and I think technology is more dangerous than magic, because it's accessible for every sucker in the world, the only thing that the mages really may hate of the Circle is that you can be condemned to tranquility without previous warning.

No, I just thought she was. Made more sense than freely joining the evil wizard empire tm.

And really, proper training instead of throwing you at the harrowing asap, being able to have a family, not being told you are a curse from god, and being able to live where you want would keep 90% mages happy, accepting of reasonable control, and unlikely to result in Tevinter 2.0.

I do agree they shouldn't rule, fireballs don't improve leadership skills but make it harder to depose someone who has missused power.