601 réponses à ce sujet

[Nerevar-as]

DP.

[TheKomandorShepard]

These kind of excuses are similar to the ones I often hear in the real world from people saying that all Muslims should be forced to leave our country because they could be terrorists. That blanket excuse that, because a few do evil, all those associated must also be tempted to do so. Which is, of course utterly ridiculous. It takes absolutely no account of the individual. How many, I wonder, were killed by Exalted Marches, ordered by the word of one person sat in a position of power?

 

I would also note that a single Mage is not as powerful as you make out. Anders had to resort to alchemy, not magic, to destroy the Chantry. The Magisters had to sacrifice thousands for enough power to breach the Veil. It's only due to the Orb that Corypheus found and had the knowledge to wield, that he torn the Veil and destroyed Thedas. I severely doubt 99.999% of the mages ever born in Thedas could unlock the power and wouldn't just keep it as a paperweight.

 

There are always going to be people who would use their power for evil, be it money, rank, magic or brute force. And there will always be the 90% who wouldn't. Should all Templars be classed as abusive rapists because a number of their order abused their power over Mages and the Tranquil? No. Because it doesn't account for the individual. Should all Mages be kept locked away and shunned from the outside world because of the few who used their magic for their own means? No, of course not.

Poor and ridiculous comparison any person could be terrorist avoiding fact countries are very sensitive on terrorists and do a lot to deal with terrorism.And no it goes beyond arguments "oh he is evil so he is dangerous" any mage is a huge threat "good" or "evil" demons don't ask mage about morality nor humans are paragons , humans are flawed and in mage case price of being flawed is way higher than for normal person ,pretty much dorian father is one of examples beliving blood magic is evil and yet reaching for it when convenient ,another fact is that magic is unstable enough that you don't need bad intentions to cause disaster.  

 

And yes they are ,fact they have brought blights onto world including other worst disasters in thedas prove they are threat even for entire world.Non-mages never were in position to cause world-destructive diasters in first place nor they caused one. 

 

And another ridiculous argument about morality when not morality is discussed only threat that mages pose to communities and even whole Thedas.And yes they should because every single mage is threat "good" or "evil"

 

 

Spend twenty years without getting out of your block watched by the police 24/7 and then you can talk about it. No sex allowed, btw. No visits from or to your family. No family of your own. Enjoy yourself and rejoice people outside feel safer because you can't grab a gun in the supermarket and start shooting them. Anybody who knows, how do gun control laws compare to mage restrictions?

Anyway, arguments about how mages are more dangerous than normals are weird just looking at any period of human history. Yet some of the people with more blood on their hands are quite admired, I guess is a matter of saying you are doing it for some higher cause instead of admitting your ego is the size of Mt Everest.

Ieldra, I thought Alexius was using blood magic on her, as she acted awkward and was the most logical explanation to making such a stupid choice. They were under the protection of the fereldan crown, it's not like it was a do or die moment. But no, just standard bad writing to move the plot. Have to wonder the point of the mage-templar conflict if instead of working things out or failing to, it just got swept by a conflict between other factions. In a generation they are likely to be back at square one.

Again pretty much you do what most pro-mages do to support their arguments use ridiculous comparisons that would match comparing gun or kitchen knife because you can kill with it to nuclear weapon.In first place anyone can start shooting (so it would require to arest every human on the earth what is unachievable) but it requires exact intention to start shooting thus pretty much being mentally unstable and most people aren't (avoding in fact that in many countries you don't have easy acces to weapons and whether they should have easy access is still topic of many conversations) , mage don't need intention to start killing everyone around to end doing that if you want i can point an examples , another is pretty much scale of threat what i don't need even need to point is far greater than just person that grabs gun.

 

And again with poor comparisons using logic "oh you can kill with knife lets compare it to the nuclear weapon" comparing wars to mages disasters is like comparing Hitler to doomsday and avoiding fact that wars pretty much were about expansion never about destruction of the world ,not to mention wars were lead by nations not 1 individuals that blown up whole city because they were angry at the moment.  
 
 

[The Oracle]

Grass is always greener I do believe the saying is.

 

Hence why you had such division among mages regarding the rebellion; A good deal of them found the circle a tolerable enough existence if not a preferable one to alternatives.

 

Yes, that's why i think there should be circles or something like it. Some mages will always wish to be squirrelled away with those that understand them. I'm sure a lot of the people in Thedas would also love to hide away into a Chantry and have to never interact outside of it's confinements too. It's just that point where a refugee to learn becomes a cage to punish, which is what a large number of the circles became. It stopped being about helping Mages to understand and control their magic to help others and instead became a place to lock them all away for their "original sin".

 

With each of your possible choices for Divine, I'd love to find out what the long term effects of each choice eventually has. It's so easy for institutions such and the Chantry and Templars to slip back into their old ways once the spotlight has been removed.

[Master Warder Z_]

which is what a large number of the circles became. 

 

One.

 

One did such and it was by far the most corrupt and rebellious circle ever featured which makes one wonder just why things were the way they were there.

 

Provide citation backed evidence to the contrary or desist that unsupported position.

[Nerevar-as]

Grass is always greener I do believe the saying is.

Hence why you had such division among mages regarding the rebellion; A good deal of them found the circle a tolerable enough existence if not a preferable one to alternatives.

Yeah, and my country has lots of nostalgics for the dictatorship. Who cares those it oppressed if I did fine? We had less people without jobs, they should be thankful and not whine about basic human rights. How little most care until it is them,and realize those who could have helped them went first and they just watched.

And yeah, what's with BW and so few children around? It's not like you can kill npcs anyways.

[Master Warder Z_]

In Thedas the concept of 'human rights' is pretty much as  alien a concept them as it was back in Europe in the 12th century.

 

In Feudalism the upper echelons of society are granted privilege the lower are not and it is expected and completely normal.

 

Just pointing that out.

[Andromelek]

No, I just thought she was. Made more sense than freely joining the evil wizard empire tm.
.

People is just stupid, you don't need to involve blood magic for every wrong in the world...

[Nerevar-as]

Poor and ridiculous comparison any person could be terrorist avoiding fact countries are very sensitive on terrorists and do a lot to deal with terrorism.And no it goes beyond arguments "oh he is evil so he is dangerous" any mage is a huge threat "good" or "evil" demons don't ask mage about morality nor humans are paragons , humans are flawed and in mage case price of being flawed is way higher than for normal person ,pretty much dorian father is one of examples beliving blood magic is evil and yet reaching for it when convenient ,another fact is that magic is unstable enough that you don't need bad intentions to cause disaster.

And yes they are ,fact they have brought blights onto world including other worst disasters in thedas prove they are threat even for entire world.Non-mages never were in position to cause world-destructive diasters in first place nor they caused one.

And another ridiculous argument about morality when not morality is discussed only threat that mages pose to communities and even whole Thedas.And yes they should because every single mage is threat "good" or "evil"


Again pretty much you do what most pro-mages do to support their arguments use ridiculous comparisons that would match comparing gun or kitchen knife because you can kill with it to nuclear weapon.In first place anyone can start shooting (so it would require to arest every human on the earth what is unachievable) but it requires exact intention to start shooting thus pretty much being mentally unstable and most people aren't (avoding in fact that in many countries you don't have easy acces to weapons and whether they should have easy access is still topic of many conversations) , mage don't need intention to start killing everyone around to end doing that if you want i can point an examples , another is pretty much scale of threat what i don't need even need to point is far greater than just person that grabs gun.

And again with poor comparisons using logic "oh you can kill with knife lets compare it to the nuclear weapon" comparing wars is to mages disasters is like comparing Hitler to doomsday and avoiding fact that wars pretty much were about expansion never about destruction of the world ,not to mention wars were lead by nations not 1 individuals that blown up whole city because they were angry at the moment.

Wars are lead by a handful of idiots with high concept of themselves, the nation just follow like sheep.

Hiroshima, Nagasaki, Dresden, ... and those were by the good guys who were already winning the war. Sound strategic reasons, sure.

Every genocide. Always justified by those doing it.

Sure, not comparable at all. But because someone can do it in a way YOU can't, everybody similar must be oppressed, and when it blows, it means you were right all along.

[Nerevar-as]

DP

[Nerevar-as]

In Thedas the concept of 'human rights' is pretty much as alien a concept them as it was back in Europe in the 12th century.

In Feudalism the upper echelons of society are granted privilege the lower are not and it is expected and completely normal.

Just pointing that out.

I know.

I don't go with values dissonance though. Wrong is wrong regardless of when.

[Andromelek]

Quite fun are these forums, aren't they? one just has to watch its mouth, because the entire place blows up with anything that can feed any political controversy...

[TheKomandorShepard]

Wars are lead by a handful of idiots with high concept of themselves, the nation just follow like sheep.

Hiroshima, Nagasaki, Dresden, ... and those were by the good guys who were already winning the war. Sound strategic reasons, sure.

Every genocide. Always justified by those doing it.

Sure, not comparable at all. But because someone can do it in a way YOU can't, everybody similar must be oppressed, and when it blows, it means you were right all along.

 

Hardly by idiots and as i said every war had reason behind it and again never was about destruction of the world only about expansion.And yeah try to have leader with goal to kill everyone , it wouldn't take long before such guy would be put down.

 

There were strategic reasons and again never were threat for the world.

 

Genocide ≠ destruction of the world im pretty sure world was fine and (to not use real life examples as mods don't like it) when Alienage was massacred (thus genocide commited).

 

Political power always will be different than personal power and leaders of the societies will exist as long societies will.

[Sunnie]

Im sure they're let out for exercise.

Heh

Of course! They need recreation time

Then back to their tower stuffed with food, wine, friends and teachers they go!

Honestly the circles sounded more like luxury universities more then quarantine

Sounds legit.

 

[Master Warder Z_]

Sounds legit.

 

It was very legit.

 

Just listen to half the mages from there you ever meet.

[Master Warder Z_]

Quite fun are these forums, aren't they? one just has to watch its mouth, because the entire place blows up with anything that can feed any political controversy...

 

Eh hence why I separate universes.

 

Thedas is a fictional reality created by a handful of people.

[TobiTobsen]

It was very legit.

 

Just listen to half the mages from there you ever meet.

 

They even had swimming lessons / P.E. in the Ferelden tower... at least until Anders went all William Wallace once again.

[The Oracle]

One.

 

One did such and it was by far the most corrupt and rebellious circle ever featured which makes one wonder just why things were the way they were there.

 

Provide citation backed evidence to the contrary or desist that unsupported position.

 

I'll admit, we don't know anything of the other circles, to know if they were good or bad..Of the three we do know of, only the Ferelden Circle Tower seems to have managed to stay free of abuse. The other two, the White Spire in Orlais and the Gallows in Kirkwall, both showed different forms of abuse, though it could be questioned at how aware the higher ups were in the White Spire. I'll retract that then and say instead that "of the three circle towers we know details of, two have evidence of abuse"

 

We all know, considering that there is a game based around it, what went on in the Gallows, so I'll not quote anything here.

 

The White Spire was where the original Cole was locked in a dungeon on entering and allowed to starve to death, before everything was covered up and the evidence of his admittance destroyed. As goes the banter with Cassandra:

• Cassandra: What the Templars did to you, to the real Cole... I knew the treatment was harsh, but...
• Cole: There were beatings, worse than beatings. "If you tell anyone, I'll say you used blood magic."
• Cole: Not all Templars were like that. But not enough could stand up to the ones who were.
• Cassandra: Whatever happens in the future, there will be changes to how Templars and mages govern themselves.
• Cassandra: The Inquisition may have a say in such changes. I... would appreciate any insight you might have.
• Cole: You'd take advice from a demon?
• Cassandra: I'll take it. I'm not promising to follow it.

Minaeve, the creature researcher in Haven, also speaks of Tranquil being abused by some Templars due to their pliant nature (and also some Mages). We never find out what circle she's from, as far as we know. 

[Ieldra]

You say that Fiona was being controlled with blood magic? Because that's not what happened, the only thing Alexius did was travel on time and send some Venatori as infiltrates, kind of awkward the ease which they had to put the idea of Tevinter slaves on their little head.

I think she was being influenced. Perhaps not controlled exactly, but her behaviour was very odd in the first scene with Alexius, almost as if not quite in her own mind, drugged or something like that. That fits the picture much better than assuming it was simply the effect of the time magic.

[The Baconer]

'Siding with the Templars' was poor wording. I admit. The point remains that the option to press for annulment, even when Irving is saved, is a reasonable choice given your knowledge in game, made clearly wrong by the lack of negative consequences.

 

Well, what I'm saying is that you can't even press for Annulment, because it's unnecessary. The mages will be taken into custody and watched, and whatever happens next is up to Ferelden's Grand Cleric.

[Andromelek]

I think she was being influenced. Perhaps not controlled exactly, but her behaviour was very odd in the first scene with Alexius, almost as if not quite in her own mind, drugged or something like that. That fits the picture much better than assuming it was simply the effect of the time magic.

Influenced by words and fear, not by any particularly powerful drug or magic, when you asked how the hell the Venatori gained control of Redcliffe she says her people was scared and she was certain that the Templars would come after them, she decided that slavery was a fate better than death, her behavior on the tavern is likely caused by the time travel (Alexius actually messed with time regardless what, we still don't know how many paradoxes and collateral damage he may caused really).

So, Fiona was on her senses when she made such decision, I don't get why insist on get another explanation, people sometimes makes bad decisions because of their stupidity there is no need on explain it with dark magic.

[Nerevar-as]

Hardly by idiots and as i said every war had reason behind it and again never was about destruction of the world only about expansion.And yeah try to have leader with goal to kill everyone , it wouldn't take long before such guy would be put down.

 

There were strategic reasons and again never were threat for the world.

 

Genocide ≠ destruction of the world im pretty sure world was fine and (to not use real life examples as mods don't like it) when Alienage was massacred (thus genocide commited).

 

Political power always will be different than personal power and leaders of the societies will exist as long societies will.

 

 

I´d say wars are about power, whether it is represented by lands, resources, or forcing your beliefs on others. Wouldn´t know about leaders taken down, some communist ones for instance did really crazy things and they still stayed in power and with plenty of followers. And better not to think how close we were to nuclear war, and not by accident. which going back to Thedas, doesn´t look like something a random apostate could do, and sanctioned mages would be monitored so they wouldn´t.

[Nerevar-as]

I'll admit, we don't know anything of the other circles, to know if they were good or bad..Of the three we do know of, only the Ferelden Circle Tower seems to have managed to stay free of abuse. The other two, the White Spire in Orlais and the Gallows in Kirkwall, both showed different forms of abuse, though it could be questioned at how aware the higher ups were in the White Spire. I'll retract that then and say instead that "of the three circle towers we know details of, two have evidence of abuse"

 

We all know, considering that there is a game based around it, what went on in the Gallows, so I'll not quote anything here.

 

The White Spire was where the original Cole was locked in a dungeon on entering and allowed to starve to death, before everything was covered up and the evidence of his admittance destroyed. As goes the banter with Cassandra:

• Cassandra: What the Templars did to you, to the real Cole... I knew the treatment was harsh, but...
• Cole:There were beatings, worse than beatings. "If you tell any one, I'll say you used blood magic."
• Cole: Not all Templars were like that. But not enough could stand up to the ones who were.
• Cassandra: Whatever happens in the future, there will be changes to how Templars and mages govern themselves.
• Cassandra: The Inquisition may have a say in such changes. I... would appreciate any insight you might have.
• Cole: You'd take advice from a demon?
• Cassandra: I'll take it. I'm not promising to follow it.

Minaeve, the creature researcher in Haven, also speaks of Tranquil being abused by some Templars due to their pliant nature (and also some Mages). We never find out what circle she's from, as far as we know. 

 

 

This looks like Stanford Prison experiments dinamics. Which is kind of logical in something that´s basically a prison.

[Master Warder Z_]

The White Spire was where the original Cole was locked in a dungeon on entering and allowed to starve to death, before everything was covered up and the evidence of his admittance destroyed.

I see you also left out how that "Cole" if such a person ever really existed given I personally have doubts on that front killed a man.

Even if he had? The boy was a murderer; hardly a innocent victim.

Would you have preferred he be made tranquil upon arrival?

[TheKomandorShepard]

I´d say wars are about power, whether it is represented by lands, resources, or forcing your beliefs on others. Wouldn´t know about leaders taken down, some communist ones for instance did really crazy things and they still stayed in power and with plenty of followers. And better not to think how close we were to nuclear war, and not by accident. which going back to Thedas, doesn´t look like something a random apostate could do, and sanctioned mages would be monitored so they wouldn´t.

... you know what expansion is?And again none of them were about destruction of the world ,fact you keep ignoring.And in first place nuclear weapon is so secured that you wouldn't be able to lick it because of how dangerous nuclear weapon is ,it is treated appropriately to scale of its danger so should be mages.And yes as it was showed it could be caused by random apostate ,and circles exist specifically to sanction mages and prevent mages from going rampage on folks and even then circles were too lax given circles allowed to blood mages not only function but also practice blood magic within its walls.    

[Deztyn]

They even had swimming lessons / P.E. in the Ferelden tower... at least until Anders went all William Wallace once again.

The best part about this is they got the outdoor rec time because Irving treated Anders like a pampered prince.

Anders is just like Fiona, spitting in the faces of the people who actively try to make their lives better.

Well, what I'm saying is that you can't even press for Annulment, because it's unnecessary. The mages will be taken into custody and watched, and whatever happens next is up to Ferelden's Grand Cleric.

Eh.

You're getting caught up in semantics.

The Grand Cleric having the final say or not, it doesn't really change the point I was trying to make, the PC has cause to believe that the Circle is beyond saving. They can express this and actions are taken in response to that belief.

Cullen was traumatized, but his fears were justified. We've seen multiple times that a demon can successfully hide inside a person, even among Templars and mages. Idunna's crazy plan in DA2 hinges on it. It would only take one in the Ferelden Circle to recreate the same situation we were tasked with stopping in the first place.

This is never followed up on, so instead of presenting the situation within the Circle as legitimately dire. It just makes the Templars look weak and foolish for locking the doors and not clearing the Tower without The Warden's assistance.

It's also worth noting that even in DA2, after he's mellowed considerably, Cullen still believes calling for the Right was justified in Ferelden.