601 réponses à ce sujet

[Sifr]

Speculation, speculation, speculation.

Opinion does not equate evidence nor dev commentary.

 

Yet it's still far more plausible than believing that a bunch of Tevinter supremacists won't use blood magic.

[The Oracle]

I wouldn't say that the Venatori had no sacrifices around for blood magic, considering the number of tranquil they seem to have gotten away with slaughtering unnoticed. It would actually make sense, to kill two birds with one stone, to use a rather horrifying phrase in that context. Use the death of the Tranquil not only to make the Ocularis but to also power themselves up. However, as others have said, we have no evidence in game that they used blood magic to sway Fiona. It's a possibility, given the Venatori's past actions, but I doubt we'll ever get conclusive proof or closure. 

[The Oracle]

*Double post, have bunnies*

 

[Master Warder Z_]

Yet it's still far more plausible than believing that a bunch of Tevinter supremacists won't use blood magic.

 

What is that saying that folks love to use on me?
 

Evidence of Absence is not absence of evidence?

 

Your assuming, your implying, and blah blah blah blah blah it's nothing more then that.

[aTrueFool]

Speculation, speculation, speculation.

Opinion does not equate evidence nor dev commentary.

Hey this is Bioware. "lots of speculation from everyone"

[Sifr]

What is that saying that folks love to use on me?
 

Evidence of Absence is not absence of evidence?

 

Your assuming, your implying, and blah blah blah blah blah it's nothing more then that.

 

Which is a valid criticism to make, I'm not denying that... there is no evidence for or against.

 

But it bugs me that people are so willing to entirely discount the possibility of them using some kind of method of control over the mage rebellion, be it blood magic or otherwise, when that falls into an established pattern of behaviour that we see numerous times over the game.

[Boost32]

Which is a valid criticism to make, I'm not denying that... there is no evidence for or against.
 
But it bugs me that people are so willing to entirely discount the possibility of them using some kind of method of control over the mage rebellion, be it blood magic or otherwise, when that falls into an established pattern of behaviour that we see numerous times over the game.

Ofc there is evidence against it.
Dorian says the mages who didn't join the Venatori either fled or were killed. No blood magic mention and why the Venatori would kill the mages or even leave them a choice if they can control them?

[MisterJB]

True, there is no smoking gun and it's all circumstantial, but it does seem pretty damning when you look at it.

 

That people find it out-of-character for a crazy cult of blood mages to blood magic to control people, when they've used similar tactics to leash the Wardens, Red Templars and Spirits into becoming their willing slaves, strikes me as rather daft.

DAI made a point of how the leaders of Corypheus' willing or unknowing allies always acted out of their own volition.

 

Warden Commander Clarel, Knight-Captain Denam, Samson, Florianne.

 

The game actually had third parties point out to us how they did what they did of their own free will. No reason Fiona would be any different.
 

[Carmen_Willow]

I

[Edited for Space]

 

Nothing justifies mages trying to attack templars. Mages are weak against templars. Their best strategy at that point would have been to fall back to Tevinter's borders and let the Separati take the templars. And again, this would all take place in Ferelden, which would of course make enemies out of them as well. Bad strategy for the mages, not so much for Corypheus, although he played a foolish hand in his own way. But the point is, Fiona would not have gone along with that willingly. Alexius was ousted, and Fiona could then see the truth. She was never working with Tevinter, just some cult that was commandeering her movement.

I know this is a bit off-topic, but you think the mages would have started learning martial arts (even in secret). After seeing how many mages died during the Kirkwall rebellion, someone should have figured out that they needed more than spells to fight this war. This is something else Fiona failed to address. Why didn't she have her people training in the use of small arms at least? Clearly, she was not meant to lead a revolution.

[thesuperdarkone2]

I think people are confusing the brainwashing argument. I never argued that Fiona was brainwashed into making the deal, I'm arguing that Fiona and he mages are brainwashed afterwards if you side with the Templars just like the Templars are if you side with the mages.

Why is it so difficult to imagine the mages are brainwashed if you side with the mages

[thesuperdarkone2]

DAI made a point of how the leaders of Corypheus' willing or unknowing allies always acted out of their own volition.

Warden Commander Clarel, Knight-Captain Denam, Samson, Florianne.

The game actually had third parties point out to us how they did what they did of their own free will. No reason Fiona would be any different.

You also forget how all of them are tricked into doing evil by exploiting their fatal flaws. Mages are tricked by false information to exploit their desperation to survive. Templars are tricked by their willingness to do anything they are ordered to into taking red lyrium. Wardens are tricked into summoning a demon army by their willingness to do anything to stop blights.

[Andromelek]

I know this is a bit off-topic, but you think the mages would have started learning martial arts (even in secret). After seeing how many mages died during the Kirkwall rebellion, someone should have figured out that they needed more than spells to fight this war. This is something else Fiona failed to address. Why didn't she have her people training in the use of small arms at least? Clearly, she was not meant to lead a revolution.

Knight Enchanters, Arcane Warriors and the apostates who lived all their lives out of the Circle know melee combat, if your question is if the Circle mages know, that's unlikely, they had to get a Fortress to keep their rebellion forward, and they basically depend of spells, on the Circle they receive anything they need from the Templars, if you side with them and take them as allies you can find a mage complaining at Cassandra, so, they still being pretty useless.

[Master Warder Z_]

DAI made a point of how the leaders of Corypheus' willing or unknowing allies always acted out of their own volition.

Warden Commander Clarel, Knight-Captain Denam, Samson, Florianne.

The game actually had third parties point out to us how they did what they did of their own free will. No reason Fiona would be any different.

Basically

[Deztyn]

I think people are confusing the brainwashing argument. I never argued that Fiona was brainwashed into making the deal, I'm arguing that Fiona and he mages are brainwashed afterwards if you side with the Templars just like the Templars are if you side with the mages.
Why is it so difficult to imagine the mages are brainwashed if you side with the mages

Because the writers made an effort to show us how every other faction was unwittingly manipulated but did nothing to show the same with the mages.

[thesuperdarkone2]

Because the writers made an effort to show us how every other faction was unwittingly manipulated but did nothing to show the same with the mages.

Actually, they did with the time magic, the fact that Fiona tells you that there were secret venatori agents feeding false information on the templar threat to the mages, and showing how desperate the mages are.

 

How can anyone not think the mages were unwillingly tricked?

[Deztyn]

The question was, "Why is it so difficult to imagine the mages are brainwashed if you side with the mages"

The Templars were shown to be slaves to Red Lyrium they were tricked into taking by their superiors.

The Warden mages were shown to be controlled through a blood magic ritual they believed would only bind them to a demon.

I repeat, "the writers made an effort to show us how every other faction was unwittingly manipulated but did nothing to show the same with the mages."

[Jedi Master of Orion]

I don't have a firm opinion either way about whether Fiona was brainwashed or not in "In Your Heart Shall Burn," but the precedent of the other characters doesn't really tell us either way. 

 

Some characters joined Corypheus freely, others were unknowingly manipulated, others were mind controlled. Warden-Commander Clarel, for instance, was acting out her own free will, but she never knowingly fought alongside Corypheus. And other Wardens had their minds bound to demons or were otherwise forced to obey Corypheus. Fiona could conceivably be any of these.

[Master Warder Z_]

Nothing to support any method of control exists in DAI or any statement by dev.

It's a unsupported fan position, nothing else.

[Boost32]

I wonder why Fiona's defender ignore Dorian's statement about the mages. He clearly says that the mages rebel who didnt join the Venatori either fled or were killed.
I'm going to post it again:

Iron Bull: I guess the Vints will be pissed with you after warning everyone at Haven.
Dorian: Not that my warning did much good.
Iron Bull: Didn't see any rebel mages coming to do it.
Dorian: There is that. The ones who didn't join the Venatori either ran off or were killed.
Iron Bull: Ah, see? Good on you. Way to join the underdogs.
Dorian: I'm thrilled, really.

[thesuperdarkone2]

Nothing to support any method of control exists in DAI or any statement by dev.

It's a unsupported fan position, nothing else.

One that the guide outright says occurs and one which Weekes said must be true since the guide says so.

 

I wonder why Fiona's defender ignore Dorian's statement about the mages. He clearly says that the mages rebel who didnt join the Venatori either fled or were killed.
I'm going to post it again:

Iron Bull: I guess the Vints will be pissed with you after warning everyone at Haven.
Dorian: Not that my warning did much good.
Iron Bull: Didn't see any rebel mages coming to do it.
Dorian: There is that. The ones who didn't join the Venatori either ran off or were killed.
Iron Bull: Ah, see? Good on you. Way to join the underdogs.
Dorian: I'm thrilled, really.

Did you consider they are forced to submit and be brainwashed or straight up killed if they try to fight back? And if they aren't brainwashed, I fail to see how being forced to fight on penalty of death is somehow their fault. Would you not do the same if you conscripted the mages/templars and they suddenly decided to abandon you?

 

Then tell me how you see the pro-circle mages suddenly become die-hard venatori supporters during the bad future in IHS.

[Boost32]

One that the guide outright says occurs and one which Weekes said must be true since the guide says so.
 

Did you consider they are forced to submit and be brainwashed or straight up killed if they try to fight back? And if they aren't brainwashed, I fail to see how being forced to fight on penalty of death is somehow their fault. Would you not do the same if you conscripted the mages/templars and they suddenly decided to abandon you?
 
Then tell me how you see the pro-circle mages suddenly become die-hard venatori supporters during the bad future in IHS.

We had that discussion already, didnt we?
So lets repeat again: the guide was made by a third party and is full of errors, so I take everything in it with a grani of salt.
Weekes said something thing like that: "if it was in the guide it must be, I dont remember, you better ask do Gaider", thats in no way a confirmation.

Dorian said joined, not brainwashed.
Its their fault because they invited the Venatori in their ranks. And yes I would execute them, they would be either prisioner (mages) or deserters (templars), capital punishment would be adequate.

One year has passed, he could caved in after seeing the destruction Corypheus brought to the world. Still not even in the IHS there is a proof of brainwash.

[Dean_the_Young]

Because the writers made an effort to show us how every other faction was unwittingly manipulated but did nothing to show the same with the mages.

 

It's not that they didn't show that the faction was unwittingly manipulated- they just didn't show that the faction was unwittingly compelled.

 

The Mages were tricked- and just like most of the other factions, they bear a burden for not realizing it. Just as the Templars shouldn't have so blindly followed orders- and Seekers should have been more on watch for internal corruption- and the Wardens shouldn't have been so secretive.

 

What distinguishes the mages isn't wit (or lack of it)- it's the acquiescence. Templars had to be brainwashed. The Seekers couldn't be, and so were destroyed. The Wardens were willing to march to their doom for the cause.

 

But the Mages? The Mages didn't do any of those. When faced with (a false delimma of) freedom or death, they abandoned the cause and sold themselves into slavery. They didn't need to be massacred to be cowed into line- the dissidents, such as they were, passively stood by as others did bad things they certainly didn't support, but didn't obstruct or actively oppose or fight either- whether it be their leader selling them into slavery, or the maleficars outside the gate, or the ousting of the Arl. They don't even have to be brainwashed to acquiesing to such things- the ones who aren't actively onboard with it, the eager collaborators, passively accept the change of things even as they complain and wait for someone else to come fix the problem instead of doing it themselves. Fiona wouldn't be able to sell the Mages into slavery if the Mages laughed her out of the position.

 

 

Instead of resisting, they complained about it, while waiting for someone else to solve the problem for them- which is completely typical for the Mage arc across all of Dragon Age Inqusition, and even before. The Mages aren't an active polity that solves their own problems- they are continually being addressed or pushed by others, and the only way the Mages get what they want is if someone else does it for their own reasons. Going along with others intentions, whether it's good or not and whether they want it or not- is practically the Mage political theme across the DA Franchise- in DAO (when the Warden determines their fate), in DA2 (when Anders and/or Meredith force the battle), and in DAI (when a pro-Mage ending is in no way dependent on the mages themselves).

[The Oracle]

It's not that they didn't show that the faction was unwittingly manipulated- they just didn't show that the faction was unwittingly compelled.

 

The Mages were tricked- and just like most of the other factions, they bear a burden for not realizing it. Just as the Templars shouldn't have so blindly followed orders- and Seekers should have been more on watch for internal corruption- and the Wardens shouldn't have been so secretive.

 

What distinguishes the mages isn't wit (or lack of it)- it's the acquiescence. Templars had to be brainwashed. The Seekers couldn't be, and so were destroyed. The Wardens were willing to march to their doom for the cause.

 

But the Mages? The Mages didn't do any of those. When faced with (a false delimma of) freedom or death, they abandoned the cause and sold themselves into slavery. They didn't need to be massacred to be cowed into line- the dissidents, such as they were, passively stood by as others did bad things they certainly didn't support, but didn't obstruct or actively oppose or fight either- whether it be their leader selling them into slavery, or the maleficars outside the gate, or the ousting of the Arl. They don't even have to be brainwashed to acquiesing to such things- the ones who aren't actively onboard with it, the eager collaborators, passively accept the change of things even as they complain and wait for someone else to come fix the problem instead of doing it themselves. Fiona wouldn't be able to sell the Mages into slavery if the Mages laughed her out of the position.

 

 

Instead of resisting, they complained about it, while waiting for someone else to solve the problem for them- which is completely typical for the Mage arc across all of Dragon Age Inqusition, and even before. The Mages aren't an active polity that solves their own problems- they are continually being addressed or pushed by others, and the only way the Mages get what they want is if someone else does it for their own reasons. Going along with others intentions, whether it's good or not and whether they want it or not- is practically the Mage political theme across the DA Franchise- in DAO (when the Warden determines their fate), in DA2 (when Anders and/or Meredith force the battle), and in DAI (when a pro-Mage ending is in no way dependent on the mages themselves).

 

Not really surprising though, for a group of people locked up from youth and given no say over their lives. It must be pretty hard to know what to do and where to go, when you've spent most of your years so separated from the world and from the day to day decisions everyone else faces. It's hard to find a real life comparison, as we tend to not isolate children from early youth into adulthood and beyond.

[SgtSteel91]

It's not that they didn't show that the faction was unwittingly manipulated- they just didn't show that the faction was unwittingly compelled.

 

The Mages were tricked- and just like most of the other factions, they bear a burden for not realizing it. Just as the Templars shouldn't have so blindly followed orders- and Seekers should have been more on watch for internal corruption- and the Wardens shouldn't have been so secretive.

 

What distinguishes the mages isn't wit (or lack of it)- it's the acquiescence. Templars had to be brainwashed. The Seekers couldn't be, and so were destroyed. The Wardens were willing to march to their doom for the cause.

 

But the Mages? The Mages didn't do any of those. When faced with (a false delimma of) freedom or death, they abandoned the cause and sold themselves into slavery. They didn't need to be massacred to be cowed into line- the dissidents, such as they were, passively stood by as others did bad things they certainly didn't support, but didn't obstruct or actively oppose or fight either- whether it be their leader selling them into slavery, or the maleficars outside the gate, or the ousting of the Arl. They don't even have to be brainwashed to acquiesing to such things- the ones who aren't actively onboard with it, the eager collaborators, passively accept the change of things even as they complain and wait for someone else to come fix the problem instead of doing it themselves. Fiona wouldn't be able to sell the Mages into slavery if the Mages laughed her out of the position.

 

 

Instead of resisting, they complained about it, while waiting for someone else to solve the problem for them- which is completely typical for the Mage arc across all of Dragon Age Inqusition, and even before. The Mages aren't an active polity that solves their own problems- they are continually being addressed or pushed by others, and the only way the Mages get what they want is if someone else does it for their own reasons. Going along with others intentions, whether it's good or not and whether they want it or not- is practically the Mage political theme across the DA Franchise- in DAO (when the Warden determines their fate), in DA2 (when Anders and/or Meredith force the battle), and in DAI (when a pro-Mage ending is in no way dependent on the mages themselves).

 

I sort of find that problematic because it comes off as oppressed groups can't be the architects of their own liberation and freedom without some outside 'savior' t swoop in for them. I feel like this also applies to the Elves too. Like the only way things can get better for Elves in Orlais is if the Inquisitor feels charitable enough to support Briala. Or Elves in Fereldan getting better representation if a City Elf Warden asks for it, then go and **** all over it in the epilogue (or just not mention it).

[Master Warder Z_]

I sort of find that problematic because it comes off as oppressed groups can't be the architects of their own liberation and freedom without some outside 'savior' t swoop in for them. I feel like this also applies to the Elves too. Like the only way things can get better for Elves in Orlais is if the Inquisitor feels charitable enough to support Briala. Or Elves in Fereldan getting better representation if a City Elf Warden asks for it, then go and **** all over it in the epilogue (or just not mention it).

 

Well that's the social and or ethnic minority for you.

 

What can you do?

 

Have them toe the line or kill them, not that much different from our own world come to think of it.